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Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

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ItoI6

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_30Joo5r_w

@ 1:08 you can hitstun cancel the 1st hit of upb if its used in the air and punish mk on hit. it doesnt work on grounded upb and it also wont help you escape tornado or anything else of significance really, but mk not being able to kill greninja with his best kill move is really bad. it isnt easy though it takes some precise timing to pull off.
 

Gunla

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Seeing a bit of 60:40 Wario and 50:50 Diddy.

I can chalk it up as that for now, if anyone objects. (Diddy will likely be Week 1, anyways...)
 

FullMoon

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I don't think we win against Wario myself, I think it's even, but I need more Wario practice before I can really know the MU.
 

Gunla

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Week 1 of Season 2 begins with Diddy, Wario, Mario and Doc.
 

ephOE

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Week 1 of Season 2 begins with Diddy, Wario, Mario and Doc.
:4diddy:
I've heard players keep saying this is an even MU. I don't think it's terrible but at best it's no better than even. Zoning is the name of the game here. Diddy's approach options aren't fantastic against Greninja but like many other MUs, you must avoid excessive shielding. Shielding the banana can be especially dangerous because even perfect shielding in can trap you into getting grabbed. Like the Luigi MU, don't get grabbed. Shadow Sneak hitstun cancel won't save Greninja from any of Diddy's throw combos, to which Greninja is very susceptible even with DI.

Diddy has great aerials so your Fair spacing has to be on point. Shuriken are useful but unsafe at medium to close range. Never go into the repeating jab unless you've already caught Diddy in the air with Jab 2. Hydro Pump can be used in the neutral as long as you use it from a safe distance.

Diddy's recovery is still probably his greatest flaw (although it's not even that bad). Be prepared to predict if he goes high with Side B and punish. If he goes low and uses the Rocket Barrels, you have to make sure you don't get counter gimped by the liftoff or loose barrels flying around. Bair can intercept between liftoff and ledge grab. Hydro Pump can veer him off course, but it's start up isn't the fastest so you have to be very careful with it. Substitute can be useful if the Diddy has to recover from very low and in a predictable direction, but again it's a bit slow to activate.

45:55 Diddy's favor, in my opinion, though I'll say the Diddy's I regularly play are much, much better players than I am.

:4wario2:
Already gave my two cents on this one. Three things to consider, 1) don't get hit by the bike, 2) don't get hit by the Waft, 3) don't get chomped.

Be slippery and only shield when necessary (usually just to block the bike). Almost everything in Greninja's arsenal moves his hurtbox forward (think the opposite of the startup to Falcon's F smash). This is a pain because it allows the closing of the Chomp to trump a lot of attacks. It's just something that you have to respect, because if you're careless it's just free damage for Wario. Greninja's tongue during Utilt isn't part of his hurtbox, however, so it can be used as anti-air against Wario's bread-n-butter falling Chomp.

The Waft has the potential to even up matches and in a 2 stock game you can be sure Wario is going to save it for the second stock. It's harder to land than in Brawl, though. It's just something you have to avoid, but Greninja has the mobility to do so. Outside of Waft it's not easy for Wario to KO Greninja, especially with Greninja's recovery.

60:40, Greninja's favor. With customs, ShifShuri will always take Wario off the Bike.

:4mario:
Respect the plumber for his frame data, disrespect him for his poor reach. Fair has enough range, push-back on block, and the autocancel frames to really make things tough for Mario. Mario's only disjointed attack is his F smash, and his other moves lack any serious reach. Zoning and spacing will keep Mario out when he wants to get in and tussle.

If Mario does get in, he has good combo potential. If you are at 0% or slightly higher (maybe around 10%) and you get grabbed, he cannot combo D throw into Utilt if you just hold down and shield. If he chooses Up B then you simply have to take it, although the damage isn't too bad and he can't follow up from it. If you are above ~10% and get caught in an Utilt, you can cancel the hitsun with Shadow Sneak.

Mario's smashes come out FAST, but shouldn't be too hard to avoid. Just remember that Greninja's attacks generally extend his hurtbox. If you try to poke Mario with a jab he can actually land an Up Smash without taking any damage himself.

Fireballs are a decent projectile but easy to perfect shield. You can even dash/dash attack under them. Mario's recovery is exploitable. FLUDD really shouldn't have any effect on your own recovery.

Don't use FCWS because he'll cape them right back into you.

55:45, Greninja's favor. I still watch aMSa vs. Ally @ APEX 2015 from time to time. Hype.

:4drmario:
Mario but with worse frame data and more weight. Projectile is easier to navigate around/under. Recovery is TERRIBLE and super vulnerable to Hydro Pump. KO power is stronger, but Greninja shouldn't be getting hit much in this MU.

At worse 60:40, Greninja's favor. Doc has a couple of customs that improve him a bit, but they don't really make much of a difference in the overall MU.
 

Ludiloco

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:4drmario:I think Doc can be frustrating up close and his pills can be very annoying from a distance. Dair also beats out all of our attacks minus upsmash I believe, so you have to be careful about following him from below. Against a Doc who knows how to use the tornado effectively I don't think this is THAT terrible for Doc. 60:40 us sounds about right though, Hydro pump really messes with him. I look at this matchup similar to Ness, can be tough in neutral but knock him far enough off stage and he's not coming back.

:4mario:Is similar but faster than Doc with an arguably worse projectile. I think it's a trade-off leading to pretty much the same matchup with a few minor differences. I do respect Mario a lot more in the air as his moves come out incredibly fast, but he's about the same as Doc in close quarters. He also can't force us to approach as our projectiles clank with his, while pills can bounce over them. Honestly I think Mario is an easier matchup than Doc but I'll put it as 60:40 us as well.

:4wario2:This matchup is annoying because good Wario players always play lame. The chomp shouldn't bother us much as we don't tend to sit in our shields for long, just be wary of his very safe F-air pokes and that he will often follow them up with falling chomps. Counter the bike with FF nair, and if he gets in a bad habit of jumping off before it hits you follow him up with an up air or back air. Wario has a lot of power and doesn't die for a while, but minus the waft and f-tilt his kill moves are all very slow and predictable. With our mobility, Wario's best bet is a bike setup into a waft, which gives us lots of time to tack on big damage and go for the kill while he has to wait for the waft to charge. Overall, I'd say Wario's combo game really isn't that threatening to us and his best kill move takes a lot of time to set up. He is almost impossible to gimp, however, so these matches tend to go on for a long time giving him many opportunities at a waft. I'd say 55:45 us.

:4diddy:This is the big one. I'd say Greninja's second worst matchup, however this doesn't mean it's terrible. If you can stay slippery and elusive, Diddy will have trouble getting his mitts on you. If he does manage to get you, always DI for the f-air at low %, then use your JUMP to escape his up airs at high %. NOT your air dodge. The moment you air dodge, Diddy can read it and get you for it next time. If you jump, you are guaranteed to escape the up air and then can use a mixup to land safely (hydro pump, air dodge, regular land, go for ledge). In neutral, jabs can beat out a lot of Diddy's common approaches. The only time I wouldn't recommend jabbing on an approach is when he has the banana in his hand, as you can likely trip anyway from touching it or he can grab you as it clanks.

Offstage, we win completely. Down aimed f-tilt can beat his monkey flip to the ledge, and hydro pump can beat his jetpack cleanly. If he goes high with the flip, jump up and nair/up air him. The key to winning this matchup overall is just to be calm and not sit in your shield. Also, this may seem like obvious advice but we need to be killing Diddy early. If you can't take Diddy's stock first and he's at high %, you may as well walk over and unplug your controller. Diddy with rage is probably the scariest character in the game, debatably as scary as Lucario with rage. Take Diddy's stock before he takes yours and reset his rage, and you're in the best position you can possibly be. 55:45 monkey man.
 

ephOE

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Oops. You're right - I got Doc's weight confused with another character. If the frame data isn't different then there must be damage/knockback differences across a variety of attacks because I have never seen a Doc combo the way Mario can.

Not sure on the accuracy of this, but: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dr._Mario_(SSB4)#Differences_from_Mario

If there was a Doc main who knew the precise differences we should bring him in for a consultation (heh). Regardless, Doc is significantly less of a threat than Mario, in my experience.
 

Jaguar360

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Oops. You're right - I got Doc's weight confused with another character. If the frame data isn't different then there must be damage/knockback differences across a variety of attacks because I have never seen a Doc combo the way Mario can.

Not sure on the accuracy of this, but: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dr._Mario_(SSB4)#Differences_from_Mario

If there was a Doc main who knew the precise differences we should bring him in for a consultation (heh). Regardless, Doc is significantly less of a threat than Mario, in my experience.
Doc's combo game is as dangerous as Mario's. The combos themselves aren't the same, but they are still great.

For instance, Doc can get D-throw -> U-tilt -> U-tilt -> U-smash -> U-air -> B-air on most characters at low percents, which does ~60 damage. He has dangerous followups in general off of his d-throw, u-tilt and d-tilt. All three of those can easily lead into kill moves and the same can't be said for Mario. I've heard that both he and Mario have good jab cancels that should lead into combos, but I need to experiment with those to see exactly what.

The differences from Mario in the wiki are pretty much correct.

I do agree with yours and Ludicolo's analyses of the Doc matchup though. He is very easily gimped, to slow to punish whiffed attacks from Greninja or attacks that are shielded at a wide enough distance and has a slightly worse neutral since Greninja's ground and aerial mobility allows him to break past pill zoning and get in on Doc easily.

However, Doc's damage racking capabilities are not to be underestimated and his punishes are strong if he is in range for a punish (shieldgrab d-throw combos and Super Jump Punch out of shield, namely). A hard read with an F-smash or SJP can also change the flow of the match. Super Sheet also needs to be considered, as it means that Greninja needs to be more careful with fully charged shurikens and it can gimp Greninja's recovery.

With customs, the matchup stays about the same. Shifting Shuriken gives Greninja kill confirms into U-smash and I think beats Tornado in terms of priority, but since it needs to charge to be useful, Doc can reflect in somewhat easily and take advantage of it himself with enough reaction time. Stagnant Shuriken is actually the most effective Shuriken in the matchup imo since uncharged ones still have followups and are great for damage racking and getting kill followups. On Doc's end, Fast Capsules help the neutral a bit, but the lack of hitstun and Greninja's speed make it difficult for him to use them much. Gust Cape gimps Greninja more easily and is definitely notable. Soaring Tornado improves Doc's recovery significantly and kills surprisingly early, but it doesn't matter too much in this matchup because it's Hydro Pump bait. One 'Ol Two can beat used in conjunction with the former and is an extremely dangerous kill move (it's a guaranteed followup from d-throw...), but the recovery is very poor and it's a riskier OoS option.

So I agree that it's a 60:40 matchup with or without customs.
 

Gunla

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Balance Patch in 2 weeks...

Should we wait for them and give a buffer of a week for Mewtwo and Patch Changes to restart MU discussion? It's a tad pointless in my eyes.

This could be huge.
 
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Ludiloco

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Balance patch was definitely needed, though I wish they would just wait for the newcomers to be implemented before balancing the game again. I have a sneaky feeling Lucas is going to be top tier.
 

Ludiloco

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I'm honestly expecting a small buff for Greninja. Not sure what it will be, but I think they'll give him something nice
 

Gunla

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We're back to general until April 20th.
 

bc1910

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I wanted to discuss Wario but since we're back to general I'll save my thoughts. Though one thing I'll say (that's unlikely to change) is that Greninja outranges him pretty badly with Fair and it's a very nice air-air poke, something most characters wish they had against Wario.
 

Gunla

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You can discuss anyone still, it's just generalized thanks to the looming patch.

Some MUs may get better, worse, or be like 1.0.4 Kirby and not really change at all.
 
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David Galanos

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Have we discussed the Sonic matchup yet? It seems pretty hard, but it may not be a matchup thing. I feel like shurikens can't be used nearly as much in neutral cause he can charge side b and shuriken has start up. And I feel like I can't space with fair or use back air to fade away and land, Cause of side b. I feel like I'm just relying on shielding the spin dash and trying to get something out of shield after that, but a good sonic will back air or homing attack if I do this. It's hard approaching him and getting any string going besides like up throw up air. Any insight on this? Whether it's a bad mu, or if there's something I should know in fighting him?
 
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Ludiloco

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I just thought of an easy fix for Ninja. Remove a lot of the endlag on Nair in the air. No more SDs from getting pushed off stage accidentally and pressing A.
 

ephOE

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I just thought of an easy fix for Ninja. Remove a lot of the endlag on Nair in the air. No more SDs from getting pushed off stage accidentally and pressing A.
Greninja's recovery needs to be fixed. I've been playing TL but dusted off my frog for the first time in a week yesterday. Splatted the ledge in one game, and it happened again in the very next game from underneath the ledge. I'm rusty but goddamn, it's like Brawl tripping being applied to my ledge grab.
 

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Yeah I don't understand why it can't be like Lucario's, if you Up+B into a wall with him he sticks to it.
 

FullMoon

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Yeah I don't understand why it can't be like Lucario's, if you Up+B into a wall with him he sticks to it.
It makes even less sense for Lucario to be able to do it but not Greninja because Greninja can canonically cling to walls while Lucario can't.
 

ephOE

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It makes even less sense for Lucario to be able to do it but not Greninja because Greninja can canonically cling to walls while Lucario can't.
Even more so because both Greninja and Lucario wall cling in Smash 4. I try to recover in an 'L' shape if I'm going low since it's harder to gimp and is less likely to splat it seems, though it still happens.
 

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As a Doc player and Greninja player I can offer my take on this MU.

Doc by trait is a defensive character and relies heavily on the pills to camp out, approach and of course give damage. His cape is great against projectile spammers, especially against shurikens, as well as being a great tool for edgeguarding via Ledge Cancel. Doc also has amazing OOS options in the USpecial, shieldgrab and DSmash among others and also has a good combo game with high damage output. Doc also kills earlier with his greater attack power and that bodes a bit badly for Greninja due to his below average weight. Most of Doc's aerials beat Greninja's in terms of startup speed, NAir is a reverse sex-kick which can be annoying for a combo-breaker.

With that said, Greninja has some ways to take advantage of the Doc. Dr. Mario's recovery is very gimpable by Hydro Pump, a missed USpecial punish can be punished in return via USmash and his pills can be worked around and approached on via Dash-Shielding and proper spacing since you can crounch under the pills' bounce. Because Doc is slower on the ground and in the air, Greninja can outspeed him, pressure him and combo him fairly well. Greninja can also outspace Doc due to better reach.

I think the consensus on 60:40 is correct as long as you work patiently around the pills. If you can get in close on Doc and make your reads, and punish properly he should be very little trouble.
 

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I want to talk about :4littlemac:for a bit. Granted the chances are very low of seeing an actual good competitive Mac in a tournament, but I think there's more to this MU than meets the eye for Greninja. You look at Mac's recovery and our edge guard prowess and it's pretty easy to say 60:40 Ninja, but if you were to look only at that (and the fact that Mac has to approach) all Mac's matchups would be 40:60 and that's just not true. So let's throw out those analyses and focus on where Mac spends 99% of his time: in neutral.

Where we excel: Alright, so we're not gonna throw them out completely. Shurikens DO serve nicely in poking Mac from long distance as he approaches, but we must be careful as Mac closes distance very quickly. We do well in this MU by the fact that our footspeed matches Mac's and our air mobility is 100x better. Using that to our advantage is how we win this MU, by keeping Mac guessing whether we will approach from the air, the ground, or sit back and let him come to us. Once we get Mac in the air he is absolute cake to juggle, and once you get him off stage he has no choice but to eat moves like hydro pump and our back air with his limited recovery options. Our pivot grab's range and speed is also a great way to catch Mac off guard and put him in disadvantage.

Where Mac excels: I'm pretty sure if Greninja had a nightmare about his worst onstage matchups, Mac would be the boogeyman. Because our OoS options are so slow, Mac can whiff pretty much any attack against a shielding Greninja and start jabbing to beat any of them. This is the MU where our standing grab's turtle-esque speed becomes most frustrating, as Mac doesn't even have to be careful of being shield grabbed. In addition, Mac's OoS game against us is pretty decent, as f-smash, f-tilt, jab, and d-tilt OoS are all pretty good options against a whiffed attack. So, the logical conclusion would be to take to the air. This can be very helpful, but Mac has probably the best anti-air in the game in his super armor up smash. Mac is also very dangerous while we're trying to recover, as his super armor d-smash covers the ledge very nicely.


So, to win we must keep Mac guessing. Cross up his shield, bait out his up smash and drop down with a nair or dair (or tomahawk him if you can get your shield up fast enough), avoid his approaches instead of blocking them. Use our pivot grab and dash grab to punish his mistakes and put him in an awful position. Recover high to avoid the d-smash at the ledge (Mac is bad on stages like Battlefield or T&C, try to take him there and use the safe upper platforms to your advantage). And most importantly, keep moving. If Mac dictates the pace of the game it's going to be a rough ride.

Overall I honestly think this is 50:50. We struggle hard to get Mac offstage and take his stocks in neutral, while he has a very easy time doing both to us. On the flipside, Mac's stocks melt away if we can get him in the air and off the stage.
 
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ephOE

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I want to talk about :4littlemac:for a bit. Granted the chances are very low of seeing an actual good competitive Mac in a tournament, but I think there's more to this MU than meets the eye for Greninja.
Right there I think you nailed it. It's not as simple as throw Mac offstage (although sometimes it is), and you brought up a lot of good points.

One thing I actually haven't seen discussed too much here is stages. Obviously Mac is strong on FD and omegas but even with any of his anti-air options, Battlefield and even Smashville can give him trouble. That being said, on FD Greninja has plenty of room to run away, Water Shuriken are more useful, and it's easier to use Hydro Pump in the neutral to keep Mac away.

Halberd is an interesting case because the flying section has a dip underneath the main platform, while the stationary part has more room overall put also wacky hazards that can mess with Mac easily if he's not careful. Also, if Mac chooses to uses his Up B for recovery on this transformation, unlike most stages like BF or SV, he must use it directly under the ledge or he'll get stuck under the curve of the platform.

Delfino and Skyloft (IMO Skyloft shouldn't be legal, it has some very questionable mechanics during some transformations) are more complex because they go between BF-type transformations where Mac can't even reach us, to walkoffs, and sometimes a collection of "towers."

Then there's Lylat and Town & City which I would say both favor Greninja, Duck Hunt allows Mac to wall jump easily but is also good for keep away games, and Castle Siege which is closer to even I'd say.

It is essential to not get baited into anything, and as you mentioned Greninja's OoS options are poor. Mac doesn't have fantastic edgeguarding but you will get annihilated should you ever regrab the ledge when he's near. Greninja has the tools to keep away and I think that's the way to go. Greninja has great aerial mobility to aid in his landings, an okay projectile in neutral that is very good for gimping Mac, and Hydro Pump can destroy Mac's recovery. Mac is also very light, making it easier for Greninja to land KO's.

Side note, Mac's counter will activate and whiff if hit with the very tip of Greninja's Up Smash.

I'd still put things in Greninja's favor most of the time, between 60:40 and 55:45 depending on the stage. It could be 50:50 on Castle Siege although it is entirely possible to completely wait out the walkoff transformation. It might even go further in Greninja's favor on a stage or two - we lose WS in neutral for the most part on Lylat but it has 3 platforms and is atrocious to recover on for Mac, even more so with WS and Hydro Pump in Greninja's toolkit.

So I would totally agree that this is a more complex MU than it seems but stage choice really is a key factor here, in my opinion.

One thing I forgot to mention: Mac has quite a few moves which shift his entire hurtbox, and these are usually a pain for Greninja. While we really outrange Mac most of the time, almost everything Greninja has extends his own hurtbox, even Water Shuriken. So while we might have more range, often times we end up moving our own hurtbox in while Mac can pull his back. Spacing is really critical and being aware that Mac is (literally) a very flexible character is important.
 
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Ludiloco

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Banning FD is a very obvious choice, and I'd probably ban anything with a potential walk off like Castle Siege and Delfino (maybe leave delfino, Macs probably won't want to deal with the stage when it's not in a transformation). Mac players don't seem to mind Halberd much because up smash kills off the top early and can hit through the platform iirc, and they don't mind T&C either because the platforms are far less consistent than Smashville. I would say, as you said, SV and BF are your best friends in this MU. T&C is nice for spacing Mac and comboing him though. Lylat I would be wary of because of how easy Mac can up smash you through the platforms, but if you feel confident on the stage it probably will end up in your favor.

Honestly I think I'd leave FD just because Mac players are probably so used to having it banned. Mindgames yo
 

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Stage choice is in general very important against Mac. Stay away from stages with walls for the most part, as wall-jumping gives a substantial boost to his recovery.
 

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So, to get the thread up moving again now that the patch has arrived, this is the MU ratios I'd give for the characters in the game based on my own experience with them in a no-customs enviroment:

:4mario: 50:50
:4luigi: 60:40
:4peach:
50:50
:4bowser:
55:45
:4yoshi:
50:50
:rosalina: 50:50
:4bowserjr:
55:45
:4wario2:
50:50
:4dk:
55:45
:4diddy:
45:55 (pre-patch) 50:50(post-patch)
:4gaw:
60:40
:4littlemac: 60:40
:4link:
65:35
:4zelda: 60:40
:4sheik:
45:55
:4ganondorf:
65:35
:4tlink: 60:40
:4samus: 60:40
:4zss:
50:50
:4pit:/:4darkpit: 50:50
:4palutena:
60:40
:4marth: 60:40
:4myfriends:
50:50
:4robinm:
60:40
:4duckhunt:
...?
:4kirby:
55:45
:4dedede: 60:40
:4metaknight:
50:50
:4fox:
40:60
:4falco:
...?
:4pikachu:
55:45
:4charizard: 60:40
:4lucario:
50:50
:4jigglypuff:
65:35
:4rob:
50:50
:4ness: 50:50
:4falcon: 50:50
:4villager: 50:50
:4olimar: 50:50
:4wiifit: ...?
:4shulk: 50:50
:4drmario:
60:40
:4lucina: 65:35
:4pacman:
50:50
:4megaman: 50:50
:4sonic:
45:55
:4mewtwo:
60:40
:4miibrawl:
50:50
:4miigun: ...?
:4miisword: ...?


Obviously this is all just my opinion but now that I look at my thoughts better, I think Greninja really messes with the typical lower tiered characters and goes even with most of the rest, with the occasional losing and winning MU with the higher tiers. Never really noticed this until now.

So, if there's anything you guys don't agree with in my personal list, just say it.

Also @ Gunla Gunla you might want to look at the Match Up table again, specifically at Sonic.
 

Gunla

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That 45:55? That was actually Mega Man, bad formatting on my part. I'll fix it.

Anyways, the official discussion starts tomorrow.
 
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David Galanos

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So, to get the thread up moving again now that the patch has arrived, this is the MU ratios I'd give for the characters in the game based on my own experience with them in a no-customs enviroment:

:4mario: 50:50
:4luigi: 60:40
:4peach:
50:50
:4bowser:
55:45
:4yoshi:
50:50
:rosalina: 50:50
:4bowserjr:
55:45
:4wario2:
50:50
:4dk:
55:45
:4diddy:
45:55 (pre-patch) 50:50(post-patch)
:4gaw:
60:40
:4littlemac: 60:40
:4link:
65:35
:4zelda: 60:40
:4sheik:
45:55
:4ganondorf:
65:35
:4tlink: 60:40
:4samus: 60:40
:4zss:
50:50
:4pit:/:4darkpit: 50:50
:4palutena:
60:40
:4marth: 60:40
:4myfriends:
50:50
:4robinm:
60:40
:4duckhunt:
...?
:4kirby:
55:45
:4dedede: 60:40
:4metaknight:
50:50
:4fox:
40:60
:4falco:
...?
:4pikachu:
55:45
:4charizard: 60:40
:4lucario:
50:50
:4jigglypuff:
65:35
:4rob:
50:50
:4ness: 50:50
:4falcon: 50:50
:4villager: 50:50
:4olimar: 50:50
:4wiifit: ...?
:4shulk: 50:50
:4drmario:
60:40
:4lucina: 65:35
:4pacman:
50:50
:4megaman: 50:50
:4sonic:
45:55
:4mewtwo:
60:40
:4miibrawl:
50:50
:4miigun: ...?
:4miisword: ...?


Obviously this is all just my opinion but now that I look at my thoughts better, I think Greninja really messes with the typical lower tiered characters and goes even with most of the rest, with the occasional losing and winning MU with the higher tiers. Never really noticed this until now.

So, if there's anything you guys don't agree with in my personal list, just say it.

Also @ Gunla Gunla you might want to look at the Match Up table again, specifically at Sonic.
I don't disagree, but I'm curious for the reasoning behind :4luigi:vs:4greninja:
 

ephOE

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So, if there's anything you guys don't agree with in my personal list, just say it.
I actually think it looks pretty good. To be honest I feel like most of Greninja's MUs don't swing too hard one way or the other, and you definitely have a lot of 50:50s on there.

I think the only one that surprises me is Luigi 60:40, but you know the more I think about it the more I agree. I think Toon Link is a little less in our favor, but I just spent the last month or so really focusing on the little elf. I've seen how Zan plays him, although no one else is really at that caliber as far as I know.

But really if anything the 50:50 MUs could really be like 50 +/- 4 : 50 +/- 4. Most MUs are fairly tight. Stage choice is also pretty critical for Greninja IMO.

:4pikachu: - 55:45
I completely agree on this, it surprises me how many players think Pikachu has advantage over Greninja.

:4falco::4duckhunt: - I'd put these both at 55:45, our favor. Duck Hunt is truly obnoxious at times but I've had enough experience against a fairly decent one to say we have definite advantage, even if only slightly.

:4wiifit: - 60:40 without customs, at least.

:4miigun: - 55:45 at least, and :4miisword: - 60:40
 

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I don't disagree, but I'm curious for the reasoning behind :4luigi:vs:4greninja:
I actually think it looks pretty good. To be honest I feel like most of Greninja's MUs don't swing too hard one way or the other, and you definitely have a lot of 50:50s on there.

I think the only one that surprises me is Luigi 60:40, but you know the more I think about it the more I agree.
It's pretty much widely agreed that Greninja wins that MU and in the Luigi boards it was almost unanimous that Greninja won. Plus there's the fact that aMSa defeated two Luigi mains in APEX (JMiller and Boss, I believe?) further showing that the MU is problematic for Green Mario.
 

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It's pretty much widely agreed that Greninja wins that MU and in the Luigi boards it was almost unanimous that Greninja won. Plus there's the fact that aMSa defeated two Luigi mains in APEX (JMiller and Boss, I believe?) further showing that the MU is problematic for Green Mario.
Yeah I think Greninjas mobility and slipperiness makes it hard for Luigi to get grabs

There is a Luigi that beats me a lot but he mainly shoots fire balls and traps me into jumping over him so he gets a fair and usually starts grabs after that. Kinda hard when they use fire balls a lot, I still agree though.
 

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Let's look into this a little further than just results, ok? The better player will almost always overcome bad matchups, it just is more difficult to do so without a close game. I lost to a very good Luigi yesterday.

Luigi-Greninja is difficult for Luigi because he possesses no answer for our shuriken game. At midrange we can outcamp him with fully charged WS, as they eat fireballs and pressure his shield. I would almost say don't throw uncharged ones at all, Luigi's lag on fireball is less than ours on shuriken and he can approach as the projectiles clank. You can use them to punish his landings from a distance if he jumps, but other than that I'd almost always recommend the full charge if you're safely spaced.

Luigi struggles to land against Greninja, as his best option is to throw out nair and hope we are trying for a follow-up, in which case the nair will trade with or beat our move cleanly. The mindgame becomes will he use the nair or use another mixup like tornado to land? I would recommend a lot of empty jumps and grounded anti-air (up tilt and smash are great, if he air dodges you can punish with jab) as opposed to going up with up air. Use your grounded hydro pump to push him around in the air and offstage, as it makes Luigi confused and use unsafe options. Offstage, a good Luigi can be very difficult to gimp. Use your shurikens and respect his rising tornado when going out to try to hit him. Hydro pump is a good tool, and can break the matchup if used wisely.

Luigi relies on fireballs and jabs to break space, as generally his other neutral tools are pretty poor. Respect his jab and keep your distance, poke him with fully charged WS just out of his fireball range and you'll have a good shot to win the MU
 
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Ludiloco

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Does fully charged WS beat mega man's projectiles? I know it beats pellets but dunno about metal blade or crash bomb. Could be valuable to use them just past MM's pellet range. WS's multiple hits could also take care of leaf shield if he has it up, and if not just jumping over it seems like the best option. Not sure why leaf shield would be a huge problem since he loses a lot of his range by putting it up.

I haven't played the MM MU in a while though so I'm not sure what he does with leaf shield these days.
 

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Does fully charged WS beat mega man's projectiles? I know it beats pellets but dunno about metal blade or crash bomb. Could be valuable to use them just past MM's pellet range. WS's multiple hits could also take care of leaf shield if he has it up, and if not just jumping over it seems like the best option. Not sure why leaf shield would be a huge problem since he loses a lot of his range by putting it up.

I haven't played the MM MU in a while though so I'm not sure what he does with leaf shield these days.
I just played a Megaman, and yes FCWS has enough priority to beat out all of his projectiles. I'm not sure about leave shield once he's launched it, though, but it's pretty awful as a projectile anyways so there are better ways to deal with it.

Oh, and I think FCWS will beat out his custom projectiles too, though again I can't speak for the Skull Barrier (does that reflect?) and the other plant... thing.

Slightly related, that was the first MM I've played who has ever used glide tossing. He'd mainly use the Metal Blade just so he could slide across the stage into Utilt. I bring this up because it's an option he has if you are trying to stay just out of his range by using WS, although it's actually very easy to see coming. He only used Utilt so I don't know what other options MM could use out of the glide toss, though.
 
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Fully charged Water Shuriken is transcedent so it doesn't clash with anything, it just ignores opposing projectiles.

The best way to deal with Leaf Shield is just wait it out since Megaman can do pretty much nothing other than walk around and grab while it's up.

To deal with Megaman you must break through his projectile walls and capitalize on every opportunity to the best of your abilities. Megaman has very little to help him get away from Greninja's juggling and so once he's sent up he really is going to struggle coming back down, take that opportunity to cause as much damage as possible.

Greninja's Up-Air and Up-Smash can even hit Megaman while Leaf Shield is up, keep that in mind.
 
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