"Mastering the wisdom to use the courage for power!"SECRETS TO ZELDA DITTOS :X

[TheLake]

Phewww longest title yet?

So lately ive noticed theres some fresh new folks posting on the zelda boards. Which is saying alot cause aside from like GnW and kirby these threads seem more dead than ever.
I mean we got puffs, ganons, peaches, falcons, sheiks tearing things up now adays so i guess its no wonder anyone would bother to crank it with zelda anymore...

WELL I SAID DIDDLY POOTS TO THAT! (Yeah i went there) Its time for some low tier reppege. Hell you dont have to win tourneys but zelda definately can make an impression to say the least.

Theres hope for the ol girl. Maybe not to solo her cause frankly shes a bit simplistic and predictable but as counter pick fodder? YOU BETCHA! shes pefect for it imo! So lets work on this oddly vacant concept of match ups that this section has been missing for far to long.

We can discuss whatever so feel free to post anything

**Warning: Grammar very bad almost like caveman but not as good**

zelda is all about the wisdom after all so i think we just need to have a colabrative understanding on how this underrated beauty queen can really kick some toocus on the unsuspecting tiers above

So for now (ill update as much as i can, whenver i can) lets do the ONLY matchup that shouldnt be debated by any stretch of the imagination....


Shiek "This games winner is...SHIEK"

Ratio = 10/90 for shiek

Best stages = Brinstar and Rainbow cruise*
Worst stages = Everywhere else

Advantages = Range in the air
Disadvantages = Range means squat when shieks being ***** all

*Bias

So ever wonder to yourself..."Gee golly wouldnt it be swell to tag with zelda AND shiek? gosh that'd be so broken and super!". Well the sad truth is that the reason this hasnt been done viably (debately by captain jack who had a groovy zelda) is because its not only NOT broken but its actually UNbroken. Yeah you heard me it'll actually make YOU worst becaaauuuse 1. Sheik combos, zelda finishes; that was the intended formula but the problem here is shiek can do both...very well were zelda well...cant 2. Changing from zelda to shiek makes you better but going to shiek to zelda makes you abazillion times worst AND you lose your intial invincibility when coming off that platform thingy and shiek needs here invincibility as we all know...which remiiinds me

WHY DOES SHE GET INVINCIBILTY ON LIKE EVERYTHING?! Poor zelda...her up B gets ***** by sheiks needles and Bair. Sheik has free throw combos that are nigh impossible to kick out of unless your opponent is a twit. Zeldas grab is about as prominent as the amazon river dolphin which is almost extinct. It neeever happens and even if it did bagh...like you can set up anything on sheik anyways (Which is not true...you can set up some dope *** upsmashes and kicks at early up throw percents but for the sake of exageration and dramatic effect bare with me). The only reason why this match up isnt 100 percent in shieks favor is because zelda can turn into sheik. Thats about it. I dare not write more of the horrors of this match up but know friends that there is a slight glimmer of hope. You can strangle your opponent as he plays or kick him vigorously outside of the game. Heckling and mom jokes have also proven to be effective. Zeldas worst matchup straiiight up.


Zelda "The gift that keeps on kicking"


Ratio = 50/50 >.<

Best stages = Anywhere your comfortable
Worst stages = Anywhere your not....or anywhere with shiek on it you will probably lose


Advantages = Your gonna read this and **** every cool person who hasn't read this
Disadvantages = Every cool person is going to read this



Oh la la the legendary zelda ditto. Dittos are very mental. Im quite a fan of them. I also greatly enjoy zelda dittos. However Im awares that some folks dont like dittoing and avoid doing it whenever nessicary. But its time to man up and rep your character. Dittos are the coolest way to express your play style by having it pinned against someone who is playing the same character. So first things first. You gotta be confident. Duh right? But you'd be suprised how many folks miss treat this bit of staggering knowledge....like the matchup is 50 50 because ANY of you have a chance in the matchup. You need to think it 60/50 giving you the edge. You gotta believe ****it!

So your goal of the match up is as follows "My zeldas cooler and im gonna prove it" or somthing arrogant and fun along those lines. In a ditto there are 2 kinds of roles. The flashy fun technical one and the boring effective guy. Find out what role you will play in this specific match and your golden. The quicker one to be comfortable wins. Once you find your role you'll be schooling punks left in right cause it will keep your style in check.


Actual things to apply in the matchup? All that mental mumbo jumbo wasnt good enough for ya eh? GOOD FOR YOU! Ok so dash attack ***** sort of....push under the kick! OH and about our favorite move...DONT USE IT! thats right folks the secret to zelda dittoing....is

NOT...kicking as much as possible! I cant believe I said it! But nah you gotta kick but not so much mmkay? You gotta like double wait for folks...bait with kicks rather then chase or pressure with em. Nairs meh....your smashes work wonders in this matchup and weak kicks set up for grabs. Oh grab alot (OMG WHAT A WEIRD MATCHUP GRABBING WITH ZELDA OMG!) even if the grab doesnt mean anything in dittos grabbing is suuuper effective.

It establishes control....which you want. Commit to edgeguarding by jumping out and spooking them forcing them either on the stage for a free kick or on the ledge which you should have time to grab. Recovery wise try to sweetspot but if your gonna go on the stage light shield the moment you land. Oh and jab is seeex in this matchup but i just like jab <3 *strong homo for jab*





Ill post more and update whenever i can.

Lay it on me fellow wisdom seekers (:

 

[GKInfinity]

I agree completely about the sheik matchup. I've had people tell me that fox is worse but I refuse to believe it. Zelda can at least edgeguard fox if she manages to get him offstage (with Fsmash, nayrus, Dsmash, ect.), but can she do anything against sheik? Maybe fastfall a kick so it connects right as she grabs the edge... but idk if there are any other good options available to her as far as edgeguarding goes. Ironic that her worst MU is her alter ego lol.

TBH if my opponent goes sheik I don't even bother with zelda. At the last CGC I had a very close game against Alan's peach (not sure if anyone here knows who that is but anyway...). I CPed FD because I personally like the stage for the MU, but he ended up picking sheik which I didn't really expect. So I switched characters and ended up getting 4 stocked anyway (man, I really need sheik practice). If I had to play a sheik with zelda though, I'd just transform. Zelda gets destroyed completely.

I remember playing M2k at Genesis and getting wrecked in sheik dittos and I kinda wanted to transform to see if I could do better (but didn't). If for some reason you decide to fight sheik as zelda though, what's the strategy? Kickin' all day? That's probably the strategy I'd use. I do recall almost 4 stocking a sheik main in my crew with nothing but well timed kicks a few years back.

It'd be great to hear some specifics from the rest of you guys though (or should I say, from the other 4 people who actually read the zelda boards). I'm gonna try this matchup out over the next few days against a few different sheik players and see what works best. I'll throw out some more detailed info later

 

[Cosmo!]

zelda vs fox notes

- if the fox keeps up perfect shield pressure, there's really no OoS option that will give you the advantage

- thankfully 98% of foxes don't do perfect shield pressure. if fox is right on your *** then upsmash oos, and nair OoS seem to work. fair and bair oos work if he is not as close / if he is passing through.

- imo zelda's roll is good as long as you don't be predictable and get usmashed by fox.

- fox players tend to get desperate to kill you once you get to higher %s like 90% or higher. if they are spamming upsmash and you shield it, you get a free kick. punish their impatience!!!

- survival tips: if fox does a dair and you get hit by it, your #1 priority should be to smash DI the hell out of there. if the shine hits after his dair, no DI can save you from the upsmash, so try to get out before the shine hits.

dair is extra special dangerous because DAIR BEATS UPSMASH. be careful with upsmash because dair will beat it every time and you will be in pain

if fox goes for jab -> kill, crouch cancel the jab and techroll away. works good. IF you are too low to tech out of his CC'd jab, then you can dsmash him out of your CC.

the best way to do an ASDI tech to the ground against his jab is C stick down + control stick away and press R right before you get hit. you can do this against his weak nair too (C stick down, control stick down+away). gauge your percent so you know when you can ASDI tech.

- ledgeteching. zelda has less use for this than other characters because of the way FW works, but if you are going to be heading for the ledge then input a smash DI and tech just incase. you never know when it will save you!!!!

- you will never grab fox unless he is scared. make him scared with kicks. if you get a grab you can try to chainthrow him, careful because full back DI is really hard to punish. be on the lookout and know when to end your combo

- sweetspot dash attack is an amazing combo move, mix up this move with a grab if you find yourself getting upsmashed oos

- against lesser fox players or maybe ones who are inexperienced against zelda you can quick fulljump kick and catch them out of their full jump, near the ledge. this usually sets up for a KO

- for edgeguards, if fox is going to go above the ledge with his upB and you know this, stand a little ways back and wait til his head pokes over the ledge, then Dsmash. it is amazing

- careful with dair, it can be good sometimes but dont dive off the stage with dairs unless you're sure you won't get screwed by a meteor cancel

#1 advice I would say is make fox WORK for his KOs and suddenly the matchup isn't quite as dreadful. also try to never miss an edgeguard, they are CRITICALLY IMPORTANT to winning the match

 

[Dark Hart]

I'll right up something about Peach sometime after HERB3. I get a **** ton of Peach practice.

Also Cosmo:

if fox goes for jab -> kill, crouch cancel the jab and techroll away. works good. IF you are too low to tech out of his CC'd jab, then you can dsmash him out of your CC.

I... can't see the downsmash ever working... it's not like we're talking about Peach's.

 

[TheManaLord]

dsmash is retardedly fast and people hardly ever DI it right. It comes out in 4 frames it's so fcking good. CC dsmash is integral in all of my matchups. really good v spacies.

 

[GKInfinity]

I'll dsmash for edgeguards and throw it out in some situations because I know it'll hit fast, but I probably don't use it enough. dsmash is pretty **** good

Oh and I got some games in against a sheik player today. Nayru's seemed to work ok in some situations, but I found myself pretty much exclusively doing kicks lol. Didn't get that many games in though, so maybe I can get some more detailed stuff tmw.

 

[TheManaLord]

GUYS. Any insight into the Zelda v Peach matchup? I feel that I have a grasp on it, I basically just kick all the time. But are there any tricks or combos you guys would like to share with me? I have a few Zelda v Peach MM's in the future I want to be ready for =)

 

[Cosmo!]

yea if you kick all over the place peach will basically have nothing left except turnip approaches, and float approaches.

if she does the float approach, hit her out of it with NL

LOL


i think uthrow uair works at low%

 

[aka.carpet003]

nairs, nayru's and kicks are pretty effective against ice climbers

 

[TheLake]

Peach is soooo nasty close range

So dont let her get there

KICK HER IN THE FACE!

be patient on the edgeguards

and bait her like you would a zelda!

 

[Zone]

I'm a falcon main now :D

 

[TheLake]

GET OUT! >:D

....Unless you want to contribute some final bits of knowledge...

TRAITOR!

....You were missed by your zelda bretheren....and now she will miss you just the same

<3 Zone

 

[TheManaLord]

When should I try grabbing? If I know they're lagging enough to grab them guaranteed, I can just dash attack dsmash or toe or something. When are good situations to grab with Zelda?

 

[GKInfinity]

Well, a grab > uthrow > kick on a fastfaller does more than a kick by itself. Then there's obviously just predicting when your opponent's gonna shield and grabbing them out of it. Zelda's grab is so slow that some people will see the grab animation begin and throw out a fast attack or dodge it though.

 

[Magus420]

They're not reacting to seeing the grab when they dodge or hit you out of it. It's not slow enough to be able to do that.

 

[Cosmo!]

attack or grab is a mixup

just be really smart w/ your shield pressure
theres so many options

dash attack/ late dash attack/ grab/ kick/ upsmash/ late upsmash/ dtilt/ dsmash/ late dsmash are a couple good ones, grab being the one you do if they are scared of many of the other things you could do. dtilt can also work on shields (thank magus for this)

 

[KirbyKaze]

For Sheik if she makes Zelda approach it's pretty unwinnable. Alternatively, if Sheik is successful at pressuring she gets past Zelda's kick spam and corners her pretty easily into the easiest grabs of her life (huzzah horrific mobility). Zelda's recovery blows against Sheik stuff.

I think Fox has a great way of killing Zelda in that he can just toss her off and then grab edge at KO percent (invincible Bairs and stuff) and if she Farores, the lag is pretty stupid. U-smash KOs so early. But getting close can be complicated sometimes whereas Sheik's needles and stuff are longer and stun.

 

[Cosmo!]

I think Fox has a great way of killing Zelda in that he can just toss her off and then grab edge at KO percent (invincible Bairs and stuff) and if she Farores, the lag is pretty stupid. U-smash KOs so early. But getting close can be complicated sometimes whereas Sheik's needles and stuff are longer and stun.

if you FW onto the stage (not into the air) the amount of lag is extremely low. also she is invincible while "traveling" during her upB. she has enough angles to make it very difficult for fox to get to her and upsmash in time. what I do is FW to a part of the stage in which fox cannot easily reach and then buffer a lightshield. if fox is NOT on the ledge, then you can simply take the ledge. fox doesn't really get easy kills on zelda (merely kills at what you might call lower % thanks to her weight and fall speed)

in order for fox to kill zelda off an edgeguard, zelda must be below the stage (or so far out that she must FW straight to reach the stage), which won't happen oftentimes

 

[KirbyKaze]

Okies, that makes sense.

The Zelda I've played doesn't really do that stuff.

 

[aka.carpet003]

how far does farore's wind travel and how do you use it to stall on an edge?

 

[Zone]

@TheLake: I still play Zelda, I just don't main her anymore. I don't think She will ever progress anymore than I've gotten her.

So lame a bunch of zelda mains show up, when for the LONGEST time it was just me Darkmusician Mow and occasionally ryoko and Darkatma for like a whole year. Now that I don't care much for Zelda, they spring up like trees

 

[Zone]

if you FW onto the stage (not into the air) the amount of lag is extremely low. also she is invincible while "traveling" during her upB. she has enough angles to make it very difficult for fox to get to her and upsmash in time. what I do is FW to a part of the stage in which fox cannot easily reach and then buffer a lightshield. if fox is NOT on the ledge, then you can simply take the ledge. fox doesn't really get easy kills on zelda (merely kills at what you might call lower % thanks to her weight and fall speed)

in order for fox to kill zelda off an edgeguard, zelda must be below the stage (or so far out that she must FW straight to reach the stage), which won't happen oftentimes

Oops double post but oh well...

I have to disagree, 90% of the time I FW into the stage even if it's a platform stage, My friends catch me with a running up+smash, or a up-air if I land on a platform. Your only real options for recovery against fox are to go for the edge(Sometimes even if he is on it.) Or go for an edge cancel. Now up+B'ing at different angles and crap might work on peach or another slow running character, but not fox.

Against fox I either go for the edge cancel, or go for the edge.

A + to recovering from below. You know how You can Up+B and go for the platform from below at an angle? You can also aim yourself just right, so your teleport is cut in half by the stage edge, and you land right on the edge. This someitmes help if they go for the platform because you went for it earlier. but if they are patient you kinda set yourself up for a hit cuz your in landing animation right next to the edge. But w/e gotta mix it up.



Different Mindgames

Ever notice you gotta play completely different when you're fighting a person who is still good, but doesn't know how to fight Zelda, vs someone who's good and know's of Zelda's strengths and weaknesses?

For instance delaying a kick when they hold up their shield to go for a foot poke, ur into a waveland something else. W/e... That sorta stuff only works on people experienced against Zelda. People who know the power of the kick. People who don't know the power of the kick, will punish you for such attempted mind games cuz They don't yet see your kick as a threat. So when I go to tournaments, since most pple DO NOT know Zelda's strength's and weaknesses, I avoid practicing with pple who know, cuz I train with someone who knows all the time. It's best I learn the mind of those who don't. Cuz that's the majority of people.

I played against Uuaa, Normal dash attacks to beat his nair plane and up+smash out of shield worked on him, cuz he doesn't know how to fight Zelda. I fight my friend Taco, I instead end up having to light shield to get more distance from his pressure, cuz otherwise he'll smash DI my upsmash, and once i'm far enough away I kick out of shield, or Nayru's love out of shield. When I approach my friend, I almost never expect a nair plane unless I've left myself open, Cuz he knows Zelda has boss priority.

GUYS. Any insight into the Zelda v Peach matchup? I feel that I have a grasp on it, I basically just kick all the time. But are there any tricks or combos you guys would like to share with me? I have a few Zelda v Peach MM's in the future I want to be ready for =)

Tricks eh...

Depending on how high she is, duck her down airs(kinda takes experience for distance judge) And after she misses, uptilt, or upsmash. Catch her far away turnips, Block her medium turnips. Watch out for her to do a turnip into grab though. Might be a good idea to retreat kick out of shield after the turnip if it looks like she's coming in. If she's coming from above with a float that you can't duck, aim a heavy shield up, and Jump into a N-air, and depending on percent and how she flys you can use your double jump for a kick. or atleast you tacked on some damage.

your ideal spacing is to be just slightly further away than marth would want to be. Where it's a bit too dangerous for her to go for a turnip, but her approaches are avoidable with a dash away.

I use to try an shield poke with an up-air but it's not very reliable and down tilt shield poke is dangerous cuz of her down smash. Peach can't punish your F-smash on her shield really. Like I said during mindgame part. Throw out some kicks, if you're hitting pretty good. and you notice they start shielding, start doing empty hops, and delay your aerials to be safer.

People always down throw her and go for the kick, that's nice if they don't know how to DI, but if they do (They probably will), I either throw peach off the edge, or up throw her and try to juggle her, or proc a air dodge from her to punish her.

 

[Cosmo!]

I just got 2nd at a tournament, getting to second set of grand finals with zelda, against some fox mains

I disagree that zelda cannot recover against fox, Kels is pretty amazing and he couldn't kill me if I was above the stage and had more than 1 choice of angle to recover.

 

[Zone]

I just got 2nd at a tournament, getting to second set of grand finals with zelda, against some fox mains

I disagree that zelda cannot recover against fox, Kels is pretty amazing and he couldn't kill me if I was above the stage and had more than 1 choice of angle to recover.

Does Kels play your zelda like every other day?

Cuz Fox ALWAYS catches me if he's holding the edge and I don't go for the edge, and I miss an edge-cancel unless fox ****s up.

Just saying Foxes in my local area seem to always get me If I don't land one of those 2 options.

And what you say about this is Either "Foxes in my area are better at punishing Zelda's recovery" or Your Zelda is Better than mine at aiming a random 3-5 directions towards the ground.

 

[Cosmo!]

do you have vids of yourself VS a fox who catches you out of FW often?

I've just never looked at it as a problem before

 

[Zone]

do you have vids of yourself VS a fox who catches you out of FW often?

I've just never looked at it as a problem before

If I can get my friend who quit Smash, to play me Again I'll record them. But no I got no recent Serious vids, not since like a year or so+ Online

 

[TheManaLord]

When do you guys use dtilts? just wondering

 

[Cosmo!]

dtilt ***** sweetspotters.

if they are going to sweetspot, you dtilt.
if they fall and then are going to sweetspot again, you dtilt again.
if they fall and upB early and are NOT going to sweetspot, you dsmash

I like to call it "the falcon devastator"

dsmash wrecks non-sweetspot
dtilt wrecks sweetspot.

obviously if you know they can only sweetspot and you have time you should just grab the ledge, but in many many cases you don't have enough time, so thats when you dtilt

also dtilt pokes shields for free but thats something entirely different

edit: for shieldpoking good times are like when they are on the ledge and then roll get-up, they expect a kick usually but dtilt works there a lot

also when you get them on a platform with uthrow or something and you jump and they are shielding. waveland dtilt.

 

[Zone]

When do you guys use dtilts? just wondering

Yeah it's pretty ok for edgeguards like Cosmo said, just it always requires a follow up. Unless you meteor with ur down tilt and they didn't expect it.

I use them as approaches like in instances where you get them afraid of when you jump, you can jump and waveland down-tilt. And hope they keep holding their shield to poke em. Or if they like to aim their shields.

I will N-air into them, and upsmash if they aim low for my downtilt, And if they aim high for upsmash, Go for downtilt. careful though on space animals, They can shine you out of shield it seems when they block it all that close, and then it's **** time for them. I generally just use down tilt to poke, If I think I can poke em.

Some cool flashy stuff I go for, Just for fun, are things like Down-air on fox around 90%, into meteor Down-tilt into the ground. And hope they miss their tech to jab reset, Grab, upthrow -> Kick. How often can I get this kinda stuff off? not often, I mean fox had like so many ways out of this combo. But down-tilt can make for cool "Looking" set ups, that don't really 100% work.


Speaking of Combos I've pulled some pretty sweet crap for team 2v1 combos. Me and hungrybox teamed in friendlies once and he back-air'd a ganon, I back-air'd him back (Low %) he back'air him back to me, And I back-air'd ganon Back AGAIN, and hungry rested him mid air out of my b-air hit stun. It was ****. Also did a cool link+Zelda combo on a fox where I dashed attacked a fox and he DI'd away toward the link, and He up-tilted(Might've been a jab don't remember) fox into a grab before he hit the gound, and up threw him into a Up+B, and I kicked him out of his hit stun. Zelda's long hitstun on people sets up for really nice team combos.

 

[TheManaLord]

I've been punishing against all sorts of chars with dair to stuff lately. It's so cool =)

also runoff dair v falco's in their up b. their only option is to up b again in which you just hit them with something else

 

[TheLake]

I like dair to nayrus love

It brings out the love in all of us

oh and dair to grab on marth is prooooo

 

[Zone]

I like dair to nayrus love

It brings out the love in all of us

oh and dair to grab on marth is prooooo

Hmmm You mean like Down-air to Nayru's love w/o a Jump? Then use jump to recover or jump into another move assuming you're not at dying distance? Dunno never tried nayru's love off stage. I normally just go for tilts, down smashes or kicks off stage. Sometimes I will DI towards them to hit them with Up+B so i reach the stage first.

Because for some reason visually I can see down-air to nayru's w/o a jump working depending on how soon the space animal or w/e up+B's again.

 

[Cosmo!]

edgeguarding off-stage with NL is so hard

but when it works it feels amazing

 

[aka.carpet003]

how useful is a non-sweetspotted lightning kick? can it be used to set up anything? out of luck, i managed a weak lightning kick into two sweetpotted ones and another time i did a weak kick into dair., so i was wondering if there was anything cool to do with messed up kicks

 

[GKInfinity]

If at first it doesn't sweetspot, try, try again. Or at least, that's what I usually do. If I hit with a sourspot kick i pretty typically throw another kick out as soon as I can and the second kick usually sweetspots (assuming it hits)

 

[Cosmo!]

sourspot kick can combo into dsmash frequently. it's a bad move tho cause if you go for an oos punish and you get the sourspot then you are oftentimes in a bad spot. sourspot also has minimal shield stun and hitting a shield with it is asking to get punished.

edit: should be noted that shield hurtbox is generally bigger or wider than character hurtbox so to sweetspot their shield for the pressure bonus means you have to be more further back than usual

 

[aka.carpet003]

din's fire is a pretty bad projectile, and i only ever use it to edgeguard, but i'd rather edgeguard with down tilt, or down smash or foward smash. but i was wondering does anyone here use din's fire for anything? it's not used very often in the videos i've seen

 

[EPsilon933]

din's fire is a pretty bad projectile, and i only ever use it to edgeguard, but i'd rather edgeguard with down tilt, or down smash or foward smash. but i was wondering does anyone here use din's fire for anything? it's not used very often in the videos i've seen

I use it right after kicks if they're too far to be kicked again but close enough to recover. It adds extra damage. When I dthrow, most players expect me to try and kick them, so they DI away. So instead of chasing them, I short hop away and Din's Fire them. (Although, dthrow to Din's fire is easy to dodge. >_>)

 

[Cosmo!]

use dins vs samus

 

[TheLake]

dins fire to platform chase or read aggressive falcons or shieks

yeah i said it