Marth/Roy, Should They Make The Cut?

[Wiseguy]

Only one character? Hector. Gotta' love the Great Lords.

Anyway, Marth needs to go. Likewise for Roy. Ike deserves a spot, but I'd rather not see the Black Knight, because he's basically the most uninspired FE character I have ever had the displeasure of getting stuck on. I'd like someone from Goddess of Dawn, but a mage? It just doesn't seem right. Sothe might work though.

Coincidentally, Portrait of Ruin and Path of Radiance have the same rare abbreviation.

Finally! Someone who isn't dead set on Marth and Roy returning. You are 100% correct that Ike deserves to take Marth's place, but why the Black Knight hate? Doesn't the phrase "Tis only a flesh wound" mean anything to you guys!?

Personally I'd prefer Micaiah over Sothe, I think a mage could work quite well in smash (as long as they do it right, Zelda could've been a bit better). Though Sothe would also make a nice addition. They are really the only characters I can see getting in from Goddess of Dawn (Elincia is quite important, but I can't see how they'd incorporate the fact she's a Pegasus Knight into her moveset).

I agree that Micaiah is a more likely candidate. I'm not sure having a charcater that stabs his opponents with a knife fits into Sakurai' philosophy of shying away from "real world" weapons. As for Elincia, she was the most boring character in PoR and hopefully will not make it into the Brawl roster.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

@Chief Mendez

Why Hector? He really isn't that important to Fire Emblem and could only hold Lyn's title as being the first Lord outside of Japan. Can't give him any credit from FE6 because all he did was die and be weak in Trial Maps.

Why do Roy and Marth "need to go". They are two of the more influential Fire Emblem characters. I don't see the reason for either of them to leave. Also what makes you think a non-Lord like Sothe is going to get into the game?


@Wiseguy

Ike doesn't deserve Marth's spot. Does Ike represent the start of Fire Emblem. Does Ike represent most everything that is in the games right now. No. Ike hasn't done nearly as much as Marth did. Most everything in both PoR and GoD were in other games before that.

Also what does Monty Python have to do with Brawl. Its not the same Black Knight.

 

[Metaknights_Biggest_Fan]

In short:

Marth, yes.
Roy, Not necessarily.

I like this guy, but in my oppinion I'd change Roy to NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO........NO. (Unless of course they buff him up to where his attacks are as good as marth. AKA he has a BIGGER sword) (No perverted pun intended).

 

[LukeFonFabre]

While Sothe may not be a lord, he and Micaiah were practically the only characters that were known to be in GoD. And while throughout the stoyline he just seems to follow Micaiah around everywhere, he definitely gets a lot of screen time.

I have to disagree that Roy is 'influential', especially not on the same scale as Marth. While I'm sure he helped Marth introduce FE to international audiences, but the only Lords who have been playable in both games are Marth and Ike. Really, if Roy wasn't in melee I don't think there would be a huge clamour for him to be in Brawl as opposed to Ike. I would say that the fact that so many people are willing to let him go for another FE character shows that he really isn't as influential as you seem to claim.

And I fail to see how Marth has done so much more than Ike. The only thing Marth has done more is star in the first game (which like I said earlier, is why he's the most important) but other than that I'd say Ike and Marth are on par with each other. And I don't understand what you mean by Ike not representing everything that the games are now, no character does that.

And while the 'flesh wound' joke is definitely one of the many reasons BK fans want him in, it just furthers my dislike for him getting in. You just know that there are going to be people who are going to say it every time they get hit. Sure it'll be funny the first time, but it'll get old really fast.

 

[jwj442]

There is nothing influential about Roy. He was chosen for SSBM to advertise his game before it came out, and FE6 was hardly a major evolution for the series - if anything, it was a step back. Ike has been a major character in two games now (yeah, he's in GoD, and pretty important oo), so if anything he's more important to the series than Roy is. You say that most everything FE9 was done in previous FE games, but the same could be said about FE6 - the only thing FE6 added was supports, which is just a different and not necessarily better version of FE4's lovers, and it stripped a lot of cool things out that FE5 had.

However, even though I don't want Roy to return, I think "but he wasn't that good in SSBM!" is a poor argument. Fox was merely decent in SSB, and Kirby was awesome - both of those things changed.

Marth is historically significant to the series, but I personally don't like him, particularly his character design. And let's face, his games simply aren't very good today. If it were up to me, I'd get rid of him.

I would also like to see a mage. I think it would be interesting to have a character that has to rely almost completely on magical spells and is very weak in melee, possibly even having spells as some of their A moves.

Personally, I think Sanaki (empress of Begnion) would be a good choice. Yes, she's in Goddess of Dawn, she looks pretty cool, and I hear from people who have played it that she's very important to the story - far more so than in PoR. And unlike Micaiah, who only has light magic, Sanaki has both light and all three elements, giving her a bigger set of potential moves to draw on. I also like her character design (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/VincentASM/FE10/Nin/dori5.jpg) more than Micaiah's.

So my choices would probably be Ike and Sanaki, and perhaps Hector or Marth as a third FE character.

Of course, I'm speaking strictly on who I want to be in there. Not necessarily who I think will be.

 

[Chief Mendez]

The problem with keeping Marth and Roy (or at least, one of the problems) is that with Fire Emblem, each game has so many characters in it, that saying "so-and-so is more important because he was in more games" (games, I'll note, that Americans haven't had the pleasure of playing) basically excludes a couple hundred potential cnadidates for the precious few Emblem slots (personally, I think 3's a good number).

With a franchise like Star Fox, there's not much of a choice. Pigma or Fox? The answer's obvious. But in FE, it becomes Ike or Marth? Roy or Micaiah (Mikaya? I'm not looking it up, so someone tell me how to spell it)? The answer isn't so obvious.

jwj442: That would be awesome just because of how short Sanaki is. But if I remember correctly, isn't she a secret character you can only recruit by clearing the game so many times?

 

[jwj442]

She's not playable at all in FE9. In FE10, she's playable, and won't be as short, having grown three years.

 

[Chief Mendez]

She's not playable at all in FE9. In FE10, she's playable, and won't be as short, having grown three years.

In that case, why would she be in?

I'm of the strict opinion that the only FE characters in Brawl should have been in a localized game, so we don't have any more "who the f*** is 'Marth'" going around. I'm pretty sure we won't be getting Dawn until after Brawl, so probably not.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

While Sothe may not be a lord, he and Micaiah were practically the only characters that were known to be in GoD. And while throughout the stoyline he just seems to follow Micaiah around everywhere, he definitely gets a lot of screen time.

I have to disagree that Roy is 'influential', especially not on the same scale as Marth. While I'm sure he helped Marth introduce FE to international audiences, but the only Lords who have been playable in both games are Marth and Ike. Really, if Roy wasn't in melee I don't think there would be a huge clamour for him to be in Brawl as opposed to Ike. I would say that the fact that so many people are willing to let him go for another FE character shows that he really isn't as influential as you seem to claim.

And I fail to see how Marth has done so much more than Ike. The only thing Marth has done more is star in the first game (which like I said earlier, is why he's the most important) but other than that I'd say Ike and Marth are on par with each other. And I don't understand what you mean by Ike not representing everything that the games are now, no character does that.

And while the 'flesh wound' joke is definitely one of the many reasons BK fans want him in, it just furthers my dislike for him getting in. You just know that there are going to be people who are going to say it every time they get hit. Sure it'll be funny the first time, but it'll get old really fast.

Why do people not look further than just the surface? FE6 did more than what people tend to think. The current, and most used, magic system was introduced in FE6, this being the A>D>L>A triangle. It was the first portable Fire Emblem. Roy had the first ranged divine weapon that the Lords got, which the Ragnell clearly seems designed off of. It introduced Constitution, although I don't think any of the games have hit the magic spot for determining attack speed. As jwj442 mentioned, it introduced the Support system. It revitalized the series after Nintendo decided to put FE5 for sale only on their website, brilliant move there guys. It was the final Fire Emblem that the Japanese could call their own, at least so far. It is also the third highest selling Fire Emblem to date, and it doesn't seem as if either PoR or GoD are going to surpass it.

Influential doesn't exactly mean that the character is in more than one game, nor people want the character to stay. Hitler was certainly an influential person but we forced him into a position where he decided to kill himself, and if he didn't we would have killed him anyway.

What I'm talking about when I say Ike isn't representing as much is that he can only represent what is new in FE9/FE10. Marth can represent a lot more than that because he was in the first FE and FE1/FE3 obviously held a lot of firsts for the series. Seeing as Marth is representing those two games he is also representing the firsts that were in those two games.

There is nothing influential about Roy. He was chosen for SSBM to advertise his game before it came out, and FE6 was hardly a major evolution for the series - if anything, it was a step back. Ike has been a major character in two games now (yeah, he's in GoD, and pretty important oo), so if anything he's more important to the series than Roy is. You say that most everything FE9 was done in previous FE games, but the same could be said about FE6 - the only thing FE6 added was supports, which is just a different and not necessarily better version of FE4's lovers, and it stripped a lot of cool things out that FE5 had.

However, even though I don't want Roy to return, I think "but he wasn't that good in SSBM!" is a poor argument. Fox was merely decent in SSB, and Kirby was awesome - both of those things changed.

Marth is historically significant to the series, but I personally don't like him, particularly his character design. And let's face, his games simply aren't very good today. If it were up to me, I'd get rid of him.

I would also like to see a mage. I think it would be interesting to have a character that has to rely almost completely on magical spells and is very weak in melee, possibly even having spells as some of their A moves.

Personally, I think Sanaki (empress of Begnion) would be a good choice. Yes, she's in Goddess of Dawn, she looks pretty cool, and I hear from people who have played it that she's very important to the story - far more so than in PoR. And unlike Micaiah, who only has light magic, Sanaki has both light and all three elements, giving her a bigger set of potential moves to draw on. I also like her character design (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/VincentASM/FE10/Nin/dori5.jpg) more than Micaiah's.

So my choices would probably be Ike and Sanaki, and perhaps Hector or Marth as a third FE character.

Of course, I'm speaking strictly on who I want to be in there. Not necessarily who I think will be.

For the influential things look up. Also so what if he was picked to "advertise". It was only a few months until the game came out anyways and it isn't like Nintendo didn't advertise the game themselves, Japanese commercials are wierd. If in one of the games he didn't do anything new than that isn't much, only thing that happened was the traditional Lord archetype wasn't there. However FE10 has done a few really cool things such as an entirely new branch of classes, and I think that should be attributed to Ike as a representative of those games if he were to get in. I also already pointed out some of the things that FE6 brought into the series, and I could probably find a few more. As for FE6 "stripping a lot of cool things out that FE5 had". I can really only find 2-3 things that were left out in FE6. They are skills, capturing, and the Crusader Scrolls.

P.S. Although it may not have been intentional at points it just seemed like you were talking down to me. Trust me. I've done my fair share at research on the games, its one of the few things I like to look at, I've also been keeping up with most everything in GoD.

The problem with keeping Marth and Roy (or at least, one of the problems) is that with Fire Emblem, each game has so many characters in it, that saying "so-and-so is more important because he was in more games" (games, I'll note, that Americans haven't had the pleasure of playing) basically excludes a couple hundred potential cnadidates for the precious few Emblem slots (personally, I think 3's a good number).

With a franchise like Star Fox, there's not much of a choice. Pigma or Fox? The answer's obvious. But in FE, it becomes Ike or Marth? Roy or Micaiah (Mikaya? I'm not looking it up, so someone tell me how to spell it)? The answer isn't so obvious.

jwj442: That would be awesome just because of how short Sanaki is. But if I remember correctly, isn't she a secret character you can only recruit by clearing the game so many times?

That is why most people I know, and people I've seen, have preferred keeping the FE characters to Lords only. That drops it from the huge amount to about 14 or so Lord-type characters.

In that case, why would she be in?

I'm of the strict opinion that the only FE characters in Brawl should have been in a localized game, so we don't have any more "who the f*** is 'Marth'" going around. I'm pretty sure we won't be getting Dawn until after Brawl, so probably not.

I don't see why. Sora is a Japanese company and the Japanese hold preference over us, although we hold a little. The "Who the heck is Marth/Roy" problem was only a problem over here. That isn't any reason to cut back. If it were to happen like that, currently we would only have 3 games to choose from.

It also feels as if we will get GoD before we get Brawl. Someone over at FESS took a look at the times between releases in Japan and in the US and it was only about a 6 month period.

 

[Chief Mendez]

You're sure about that 6 month time? That makes we warm inside...

I've had discussions about this before elsewhere, and like I said, I'm of the opinion that the FE characters we get in brawl should also be in one of the English localized games. I've got a few reasons for this.

1. Smash Bros. sells like hotcakes everywhere, but it sells like hotcakes covered in bacon and injected with Easy Cheese in the US. Japan may have been playing FE longer than us, but we're not talking about a FE game here, are we?

2. The previously mentioned "who's Marth?" phenomenon that accompanied Melee. Even after first finding Marth and Roy in Melee, I had no idea what kind of game Fire Emblem was for a couple years. In fact, I probably only discovered it when the first GBA game was sold in America. Now that Nintendo has fans on both sides, they shouldn't alienate us again, especially since they have such good options as Ike and Sothe and Hector.

3. I would think that, in a series like FE, The Studio should, in addition to popularity, be looking at who'd make the more fun to play as fighter. Since they have all these options, it'd be a shame to miss out on creating a moveset for the bulky Greatlord, the nimble Thief, and the mage.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

You're sure about that 6 month time? That makes we warm inside...

I've had discussions about this before elsewhere, and like I said, I'm of the opinion that the FE characters we get in brawl should also be in one of the English localized games. I've got a few reasons for this.

1. Smash Bros. sells like hotcakes everywhere, but it sells like hotcakes covered in bacon and injected with Easy Cheese in the US. Japan may have been playing FE longer than us, but we're not talking about a FE game here, are we?

2. The previously mentioned "who's Marth?" phenomenon that accompanied Melee. Even after first finding Marth and Roy in Melee, I had no idea what kind of game Fire Emblem was for a couple years. In fact, I probably only discovered it when the first GBA game was sold in America. Now that Nintendo has fans on both sides, they shouldn't alienate us again, especially since they have such good options as Ike and Sothe and Hector.

3. I would think that, in a series like FE, The Studio should, in addition to popularity, be looking at who'd make the more fun to play as fighter. Since they have all these options, it'd be a shame to miss out on creating a moveset for the bulky Greatlord, the nimble Thief, and the mage.

I don't mean only 6 months for GoD. What I meant was that the guy who looked at it looked at the FEs that were released here in comparison to their release dates in Japan and it was about a 6 month period.

1. Doesn't exactly sound good but whatever floats your boat. Same thing goes for giving preference to Japan in SSB. The Japanese got the poll and we didn't get to partake in it without going through the trouble to translate our own messages into Japanese and send them like that.

2. There is a reason for that. Fire Emblem wasn't released over here until a couple of years after we got Melee. I can see them using Ike, but not so much Sothe or Hector.

3. But what you think is fun and interesting they might not.

 

[Chief Mendez]

1. The only reason we don't have a poll is because it'd be a b*tch to translate all the crap people'd submit, especially since alot of Nintendo characters (like Pokemon for example) have entirely different Japanese names. The developers can get some good ideas from the Japanese, but they really should be considering their English audiences and the relevancy those characters have with us before including anyone.

2. Maybe not Sothe or Hector, just as long as whichever person(s) they decide on have been in a localied entry.

3. But it is undeniably different from what we've seen in Melee. Axes and knives (and spears and magic and bows) open up new gameplay possibilities that Marth and Ike can't touch.

P.S. Bacon covered hotcakes inected with cheese isn't my idea of a perfect snack either, but I think you get the point.

 

[GreenMamba]

I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts the Castle stage we've seen so far is Akaneia Castle.

 

[Chief Mendez]

I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts the Castle stage we've seen so far is Akaneia Castle.

I'm actually thinking it's the Hyrule Castle from Twilight Princess.

 

[GreenMamba]

Considering it looks absolutely nothing like Hyrule Castle, that Hyrule Castle is never under a direct attack in Twilight Princess, and the many flags bear a symbol that looks a lot like a dragon (like, I dunno, say Medeus from FE1 + 3?), I'd say it's probably not Hyrule Castle from Twilight Princess.

 

[roy is my boi]

WTF is the friggin matter with yall every one knows that roy OWNS!!!!!! christ do yall even play the game?????????i dont care who you are roy is better!! yall hurt me feelings

 

[Chief Mendez]

Considering it looks absolutely nothing like Hyrule Castle, that Hyrule Castle is never under a direct attack in Twilight Princess, and the many flags bear a symbol that looks a lot like a dragon (like, I dunno, say Medeus from FE1 + 3?), I'd say it's probably not Hyrule Castle from Twilight Princess.

Considering that it does look like, and is layed out like the TP Hyrule Castle, there are always Moblins that fire flaming arrows outside the castle, and in the second trailer, Link's introduced (and always displayed) in that stage, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

 

[GreenMamba]

Considering that it does look like, and is layed out like the TP Hyrule Castle, there are always Moblins that fire flaming arrows outside the castle, and in the second trailer, Link's introduced (and always displayed) in that stage, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

(Hyrule Castle is on the right)

I have no idea what Twilight Princess you were playing, but where I come from, Hyrule Castle in Twilight Princess is not tan, does not have red rooves, is not adorned with a bunch of flags bearing the symbol of a dragon (or any flags at all), and it definitely isn't built like a fort.

You know, Wario was introduced on Pokemon Stadium in trailer 2. Pikachu was introduced on Yoshi's Island, as was Kirby. Meta Knight is introduced on the generic Battlefield stage. Not to mention Link is shown on the Halberd stage and Pokemon Stadium in his very brief section of the trailer after being "introduced" on this castle stage. This argument hold so little water that... I'm just utterly and completely speechless. It's like one of those pans that the Gold Rush era miners used to sift for gold.

 

[jwj442]

It introduced Constitution, although I don't think any of the games have hit the magic spot for determining attack speed.

Constituion was in FE5. I don't think a different magic triangle (it's not like a triangle wasn't there before) or a ranged Lord weapon are significant additions, especially when there had been ranged holy/personal weapons before.

As for FE6 "stripping a lot of cool things out that FE5 had". I can really only find 2-3 things that were left out in FE6. They are skills, capturing, and the Crusader Scrolls.

Well, capturing and skills are pretty major things. So is fatigue, dismounting (which could have implemented better, granted), and much more robust stealing - I love being able to steal all sorts of things with a well-built thief, though I hear that you can do that to some extent in FE10 with good use of the disarm skill (speaking of which, FE10's skill system sounds really cool in general). I like supports a lot, but I don't think they make up for the loss of those things, and I think they're the only major new thing in FE6. I also think FE5 had brilliant and highly varied chapter design, and FE6 was nowhere close in that respect IMO. Also, HM bonuses come very close to breaking hard mode.

BTW, while it might sound like I hate FE6, I don't. Even though I believe it was a step back from FE5 in most ways except for character development (one of FE5's flaws is that some characters get maybe two lines in the whole game), I think it's still a rather good game overall. I didn't really mean to sound like I was talking down to you either.

Regarding the flags, the standard on them actually closely resembles the Daein crest in FE9.

I'm pretty sure we won't be getting Dawn until after Brawl, so probably not.

I doubt it. SSBB is probably going to be Nintendo's big holiday game, assuming it doesn't get delayed. FE10 will likely come out by August or September.

 

[GreenMamba]

Regarding the flags, the standard on them actually closely resembles the Daein crest in FE9.

Only vaguely.

http://smashbros.planets.gamespy.com/ssbb/images/symbol_daein.gif
^ Daein crest
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6522/medeusflagea9.png
^ A quick MS Paint drawing of the emblem on the Castle Stage's flags.

I maintain my belief that the flag is supposed to represent Medeus, the villian from FE1 + 3, signifying Akanea Castle is under his force's control.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Gold! I love gold!

This "Akanea" you speak of isn't ringing any bells. I'm not a big enough FE fan to play through every un-localized game (I tried playing the first one with a fansub, but...ugh), and I think (given my admittedly loose understanding on the subject) The Studio can do better than a castle from some of the earliest games in the series. It was bad enough having two random swordsmen in Brawl, and I think most English fans would like to know where they're fighting at.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

jwj442 - I have to disagree about Sanaki. Granted she has a good design and is fairly key in the story, she's really only playable in the last stretch of the game. Overall, I just feel Micaiah's got that importance factor over her, and as for magic types, they could always do a Zelda and give her types she couldn't use in GoD. Assuming Lords are really the only feasible choices, then I think Micaiah's the best chance for a mage character from FE.

Suichimo - Fact is, people are willing to let Roy go, regardless of what his games introduced to FE. s a character Roy doesn't bring that much new to the table, and really 3 swordsmen is pushing it, and both Marth and Ike have priority, which is why I don't see Roy returning. Nothing personal against him, I just don't think he's necessary.

Chief Mendez - I do understand where you're coming from. One of the main reasons I'm against charcters like Sigurd is, despite their huge popularity in Japan, is that he's Japan only. And I personally don't see why Sakurai would feel the need to add another Japan only FE character when there are plenty of internationally known FE characters that are equally as good (arguably better as the international ones are also the most unique). The only problem is that they are catering towards the Japanese fans the most, but seeing as they are fond of PoR and from the looks of it GoD (which I believe will be released before Brawl), I don't think they have any excuse to add in a Japan only character. The only exception really is Marth, seeing as we already recognize him (and Roy too , but like I said I don't expect him to return).

As for the stage, I'm going with generic FE castle, though I've heard it probably could've come from Marth's games.

 

[Wiseguy]

Only vaguely.

http://smashbros.planets.gamespy.com/ssbb/images/symbol_daein.gif
^ Daein crest
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6522/medeusflagea9.png
^ A quick MS Paint drawing of the emblem on the Castle Stage's flags.

I maintain my belief that the flag is supposed to represent Medeus, the villian from FE1 + 3, signifying Akanea Castle is under his force's control.

Those two dragon symbols are similar enough that it could be:

1) Sakurai taking a slight liberty with the Daein design from PoR

or

2) An updated symbol from GoD.

Either way, the castle scene reminds me of one of the Crimean castles conquered Daein in the later portion of PoR. This Further supports my argument that most (if not all) of the Fire Emblem characters will be from either PoR and GoD.

Look guys, I hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but I think most of you have dismissed the Black Knight's chances far too easily. Although there seems to be a consensus that Ike will almost definitely make the cut, noone can think of a second character clearly deserving of taking the second (and perhaps third) roster spot. If no one character stands out from the pack, why would any of them be deserving of the time neccessary to program an entirely new moveset? Enter the Black Knight.

The Black Knight could be put into the game in perhaps a third of the development time as a clone of Ike. Make him extremely slow, heavy and powerful and give him his teloportation ability for a triple jump and viola: Brawl has two Fire Emblem characters.

As much as I would like Hector, Sothe or Makia (drat, I can never remeber how that name is spelled) they did not appear on Sakurai's list of potential charcaters. Ike and BK did. This bodes well for Black Knight fans like myself, but I fear the rest of you will be sorely disappointed.

Oh, and Monty Python jokes NEVER get old. They get better with age.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

First up, Micaiah. She was only revealed at E3, and her actual name wasn't revealed until way after the poll had closed. She wasn't known enough for anyone to nominate her, so that points pretty moot. Also, there may have been a post regarding FE Wii characters, though I can't remember. Put simply, she was too new at the time to get mentioned, but now that some time has passed, it wouldn't surprise me if the thought of adding her has crossed Sakurai's min. Can't argue for Hector or Sothe though, the GBA games don't seem too popular in Japan and Sothe's PoR status may have nit been well recieved. I wouldn't disclude them yet though. As for Micaiah's name, don't worry too much about it as I don't think there's been an official translation yet.

Secondly, the poll is not the be all end all of characters that'll get in brawl, otherwise Sonic won't get in. The only likely characters are those with several mentions, as those with one are on the same standards as Link's uncle and blue virus, so characters with a single mentions appear simply to be honourary mentions. And like I said, Soren and Mia were also mentioned, who bring more unique playstyles than the BK ever could. Don't argue their significance, as I'm sure Sakurai would rather add an interesting character rather than one who simply has significance going for him.

Furthermore, iirc, the context in which BK was mentioned in the poll was alongside Ike, so Sakurai could simply have replied to the Ike side of the post and the Black Knight just simply tagged along. This shows either two things, 1) the Black Knight hasn't enough to get in 2) Sakurai never intended for BK to be a possibility. Simply put, without the context of the post, we don't really know what Sakurai's views on BK is. But as I said above, the possible characters aren't limited to his poll, so don't think BK has better chances than any other FE characters, as we really don't know for sure.

The only reason no one can think of a suitable 2nd or 3rd character is beause Ike is the only character from FE who we have any indication over. However, pretty much all the other mentions (Hector, Sothe, Micaiah, Sanaki and even Roy) are more deserving than BK simply because they offer a new fighter possibility. While you're advocating BK's ease of being a clone as one of his best assests, he works against him more than anything. Sakurai has shown an interest in characters with new and exciting styles, and I don't think BK is anywhere close to Sakurai's ideal of an interesting character addition. Just because it'd be easier to put BK in doesn't mean Sakurai will do it. If you knew anything about him, you'd know that'd be his last choice for including a character.

As for the flag, I really can't see any similarities between it and the Daein flag, so I'm still saying it's simply a generic FE castle. The only reason why there are any similarities between the castle and Daein is because PoR is the only FE in 3D (besides GoD but I don't think anyone here has played that yet).

And I don't care if Monty Python jokes get better with age (I like Monty Python anyway). Adding a character simply because of some movie reference that I'm certain that Sakurai and the rest of the Devs have never heard about is a poor reason to add a character. And at the moment, that's really BK's best sot of getting in.

Edit: Man that was a long post, don't make me do that again XD

Edit.2: I've also realized we're going a bit off topic, as this is where we discuss the chances of Marth and Roy returning, not the chances of the rest of the FE cast (which I'm sure there's a topic for)

 

[Wiseguy]

True, we can't know Sakurai's opinion on BK without knowing the context the post. For all we know, he was included on a whim, not because he was a serious contender. However, his being on the poll shows that he must have been considered, however briefly, for Brawl.

However, I don't see how being a clone works against the Black Knight. Sakurai included Luigi, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, Ganondorf and Roy in Melee as clones in Melee because he did not have time to create more original movesets, but wanted to include more charcaters. Obviously, we don't know how far along Brawl is in development, but the possibility exists that he will once again be strapped for time and be forced to make some tough decisions.

I suspect that BK is Sakurai's backup plan in the event that he is short one Fire Emblem charcater and doesn't have time to create an original moveset.

Edit: I don't think we're too off topic as long as we're talking about possible replacements for Marth and Roy.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I think that's why there isn't a release date, so that Sakurai will have enough time to allow this game to achieve it's full potential (melee was rushed somewhat, hence the clones). The only firm deadline is 2007, and my guess is that it'll probably come out towards the end of the year (I'd prefer summer time, but at the rate we're getting info it doesn't seem likely unless we get an explosion of it soon). It seems like he's putting his all into this game, so I'm fairly confident about it's outcome.

If Sakurai does get strapped for time (which I admit there is a possibility of), then I suppose I can live with BK, just as long as there is at least 1 (preferably 2) other unique and original characters for the FE franchise besides Ike. I want a little variation in the FE roster this time.

Edit: I suppose, but they should probably be mentioned now and then, otherwise it defeats the purpose of the topic.

 

[Chief Mendez]

I think that's why there isn't a release date, so that Sakurai will have enough time to allow this game to achieve it's full potential (melee was rushed somewhat, hence the clones). The only firm deadline is 2007, and my guess is that it'll probably come out towards the end of the year (I'd prefer summer time, but at the rate we're getting info it doesn't seem likely unless we get an explosion of it soon). It seems like he's putting his all into this game, so I'm fairly confident about it's outcome. I'm expecting Brawl and Galaxy to be Nintendo's two big holiday games. I'm one of the people who believe Corruption won't hit til' 08 so they can add some online multiplayer mode to it. Miyamoto confirmed Galaxy for 07 at GDC, so I'm expecting that sometime in September or October, with Brawl hitting in either late November or early December. Nintendo'd be foolish to not get Brawl out during the Christmas rush.

If Sakurai does get strapped for time (which I admit there is a possibility of), then I suppose I can live with BK, just as long as there is at least 1 (preferably 2) other unique and original characters for the FE franchise besides Ike. I want a little variation in the FE roster this time. Sorry to be nitpicky, but isn't there anything else they can call the Black Knight? That's almost as bad as "Dark Lord" in Sword of Mana. I'm almost 100% sure you never learn his identity during the game...

Edit: I suppose, but they should probably be mentioned now and then, otherwise it defeats the purpose of the topic.

Marth and Roy are cool.

 

[linkw00t]

Marth is to Fire Emblem as Link is to Zelda. Marth is the most important character to the Fire Emblem franchise, no matter how you wanna see it.

Wow you did know that Link was the protaganist in almost EVERY Zelda game right? Can the same be said about Marth? More accurately, Marth is to Fire Emblem as Cloud is to new FF games since it's release. (As I see Final Fantasy games as 2 Catagories: Before FFVII, and After)

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I'm pretty much expecting Brawl to be out for Christmas time as well, it seem like the best time for it. Though they'd better give us new information long before that or else I'll go crazy.

As for BK, his real identity is revealed in GoD (which is hardly surprising, they had to reveal it at some point) so they could refer to him as is true identity. However, that then begs the question of why not just include his real identity instead (preferably include neither as far as I'm concerned), seeing as smash isn't that strict on spoilers.

As to the poster above me, I agree (I don't think I was the person who said that, if I did I don't know what I was thinking XD). Marth however is still one of the more influential lords of FE (with Ike coming up close), but one of the many things that makes it hard to determine which FE character will get in is due to their being no consistent character (there are consistent archetypes, but that's not quite the same).

 

[Chief Mendez]

I'm pretty much expecting Brawl to be out for Christmas time as well, it seem like the best time for it. Though they'd better give us new information long before that or else I'll go crazy.

As for BK, his real identity is revealed in GoD (which is hardly surprising, they had to reveal it at some point) so they could refer to him as is true identity. However, that then begs the question of why not just include his real identity instead (preferably include neither as far as I'm concerned), seeing as smash isn't that strict on spoilers.

Did we get lots of information on Melee's roster before it released? I wasn't exactly paying attention back then, so I wouldn't know, but it seems like a good estimate of when (if) we get more news.

I agree that he's not the best pick, but I also wouldn't complain if he was chosen. Anyways, if they put him in as his actual self, the it all comes down to when Goddess is released stateside. I'm not exactly rolling in dough, and if it comes out within a month of Smash, I won't be able to afford it, since Smash takes precedence. The problem, then, is that it does ruin Goddess's storyline. Including, I don't know...Sexy Midna is one thing, since there's a yearlong gap between games, giving people no excuse to be angry if they haven't, for some reason, played TP yet. But a month or two is cutting it a bit close, no?

P.S. Sorry for rambling in that last paragraph; I sort of shifted where I was going with it halfway through, so it's not as cohesive as I'd like.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I wasn't paying attention either, though chances are they'll reveal more characters at E3. Though apparently they had some sort of countdown of characters before the game was released iirc.

That's kind of the problem I was foreseeing. By the time Melee was released Zelda and Sheik was practically known by everyone, and most people who were going to play TP will most likely already have done so, so Midna's true form won't be much of a problem. FE is more niche than Zelda though, so facts like BK's true identity aren't common knowledge. Japanese will likely be unaffected as chances are they'll have had plenty of time to learn about it before brawl, but hopefully Sakurai will be considerate enough not to release the bombshell on the rest of the world when we're least expecting it. Unfortunately that means we're stuck with the generic 'Black Knight' title if he's added (though to be fair, the whole spoilers surrounding this guy is kind of another reason I don't want him added, as I have a feeling that it'd be mentioned somewhere if he was)

And don't worry about, I understand what you're on about. Can't say that kind of thing hasn't happened to me before either.

 

[roy is my boi]

yea but ROY IS THE FRIGGIN BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Johnknight1]

I want them both, along with everyone to return. But in Roy's case he should be decloned, as should any and every clone (no new clones!). Personally I am positive that Marth will return, and Roy has about a half chance to leave/return.

I hope only Doc and Pichu get cut, and noone else (including replacements). I am awsome with Roy, and I have begun to totally learn to annilanate people with Marth, and am getting tons better with him. If either leave I will be pretty sad, and I am positive Marth will return. Roy I honestly don't know, and have little evidence he will leave/return.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Personal opinions do not an argument make, Johnknight1. Over the last few pages people've given solid reasoning as to why Melee's FE fighters won't make the list...all I see from you is "I wan them in because they should be".

 

[zuloon]

If you want to make a debate topic, post both sides of the argument.

 

[Wiseguy]

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

From what I've observed, most of the people who desperately want Marth to return don't seem to be Fire Emblem fans. They're Smash players who main as Marth and are afraid of facing their fellow Smashers without a high tier advantage.

Granted, there are some people who clearly have an excellent appreciation for the FE series and argue that Marth should be included due to his status as the original Fire Emblem lord, but they are in the minority. Most Marth advocates don't care about the Fire Emblem series, they like him because of his ultra-cheap sword attacks.

Given that there is a high probability that as few as two Fire Emblem characters could make it into Brawl, we need a new Fire Emblem representative that is popular among Fire Emblem fans around the world, not just in Japan. Ike is that character.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Can't really argue with that, FE is still somewhat niche outside Japan, so a lot of people may want Marth to return simply because of his godly status on the tier list. The same goes for Sheik and Falco really, though both Marth and Falco have other merits to argue for their return, while people struggle with Sheik. I do feel that a lot of people appreciate Marth's status in FE though, and that regardless of his awesomeness (which would probably get nerfed somewhat anyway) he is one of the most important characters in the series. However, I someytmes get the feeling that if Roy was the uber one then they'd simply forget about Marth and do everything they can to argue Roy's chances to return. Some people are just fickle like that unfortunately :\.

 

[NeoFalconHavok]

Who thinks marth and roy suck? Last I heard they were the most overrated characters of all time.

 

[DH_Ninja]

i think marth will make the cut and that roy won't.

 

[cu00x19]

Overraterd in Smash, or their home games?

Roy: Polite, knightly god slayer.>>>Can't SHDF, weak aerials.

Marth: prettyboy, curt noble dragon killer.>>>Can SHDF, plus tipper=rapeage to furries.

I know they don't sux0rz, b/c i've played their games of origin. From the different stat growths, potentials, and all of the correct RNGs, your can max out both characters...Of course, Roy would have god stats b/c of his Sword of Seals......

*Ahem*
Last I heard was there was a need for winning characters... Winning meaning popular, such as Ike (PoR was a hit in the US). Japan only characters may not see Brawl, b/c most of us never even heard of them. Personally, I'd love to Lyndis/Hector in Brawl, but The Japanese players of FE didn't like the game as much (less things to do, compared to PoR and Sacred Stones>aftergame play, more than one job class to get)

I may be wrong though, since this is old stuff I'm spewing out (or even in previous posts).

If Nintendo decides not to cut any more chars, then they most likely will buff our red-headed prince and nerf our haughty blue-haired noble.

They may or may not; we're not Brawl's designers. I mean, look at Fox! He looks like he has a serious case of Down Syndrone! I bet he fights similarly to Melee, but he's definately not gonna be top tier--he pro'ly won't even make it to high (e.g: no JC-able shine)...

But as for our fancy sword wielding warriors from a series not known in America as much as those in Japan, it's safe to assume that Marth will be in Brawl, and Roy MAY be cut (he was only there for promotional reasons>FE 6, the Sword of Seals). He was the first cahr in the first Fire Embelm, so why take him out?

If they do end up removing the noble of sapphire, then they might as well omit Mario, DK for that matter, Samus, since original chars don't seem to be coming back(say that with sarcasm)...and many others who represent the games they belonged to.

Face hurts. Must eat pie.

~Life