Marth/Roy, Should They Make The Cut?

[GenG]

That's what I heard too, though I wonder why it sold so poorly? Either way it looks like Sakurai enjoyed PoR, seeing as he took a lot of interest in Ike, which is probably the clincher.

Well I have many theories about this:

1) In april 2005, the GC was already dead, or just cult. Baten Kaitos Origins sold in February 2006 just 26k!!! And Baten Kaitos, even with its low sales, is regarded as a fan favorite. That's one of the reasons to why PoR sold so badly. The US market is an exception: Twilight Princess sold very well for a GC title, while in Japan the game was only sold through online stores due to low demand.
2) Let's face reality: PoR "visuals" were horrible, and that may have been a let down to many people.
3) Fire Emblem, as the whole Simulation RPG genre, has a very niche market. The GBA releases in the US may have expanded it, giving it "fresh blood", because the active fans may be (or are) few.
4) GBA titles are more focused to new players, and they were well received by new players in both markets, but the PoR one was more hardcore, with characters with development, a darker, deeper plot and many things that could have been... too much? For these new and casual players, which could be seeking pick and play games.

Goddess of the Dawn sold 132k and then disappeared from the top ten, showing that the FE fanbase has changed and the series doesn't have a bright future as a home console exclusive, as well as Tellius being the worst received saga terms of sales. What a shame.

Spoiler

ZA WARUDO

Spoiler

TOKIYO TOMARE!

 

[GreenMamba]

Okay, I just read through your entire post, Wiseguy, and I can summarize it for those of you who do not wish to read it all--"I don't like Marth, and what I say is more fact than what you say."

Why are you people still arguing with him? This arguing is going in circles.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

Welcome back to the debate SuichimoTheDragoon. Please don't embed your arguments into a quote. It makes it harder to quote you.

Gotcha.

I'll assume you weren't refering to me, since I'm a Canadian (See? it so so below my avatar and everything.). That said, I don't think any one group of gamers is more important than the others. We need charcaters that all Fire Emblem fans can appreciate.

Didn't know that.

High tier charcaters are a plague. They suck much of the fun out of tournaments and friendly grudge matches because, given the choice, players will choose to play as a charcater that has a significant advantage over the others.

They are bound to be in every game.

Good for you for choosing Roy. Many lesser players would have gone to the darkside and played as Marth instead. I repect anyone who plays as their favorite character, regardless of their place on the tier list.

I have nothing against people choosing Marth because because they like the charcater. But you and I both know that if all the charcaters were equal, he wouldn't be nearly as popular as he is. Marth as popular as he is because of his appearance, or because of his role as Fire Emblem representative. They choose him because they lack the skill necessary to play without the aid of his unfairly powerful moveset.

It wouldn't be because they lack skill. I've played Roy since I learned about Melee and in the one tournament I was in I switched to Marth, seeing as I had already lost two matches against EarthBowser and wanted to have some fun, and I lost faster with Marth then I would've with Roy.

Absolutely not. Link, Young Link and Roy are perfectly fair. I have nothing against sword fighters at all. I have everything against Sheik (ESPECIALLY Sheik), Fox, Falco and, yes, Marth. These charcaters are the exceptions in an otherwise exceptionally balanced fighting game. They are an unsightly belemish on the masterpiece that is Super Smash Bros. It's not a cooincidence that these charcacters are also some of the most used. For brawl, they will either be axed, given entirely new movesets, or drastically nerfed (like Ness and Kirby were for Melee).

Fox was unbalanced in 64 as well. Seeing as you already noticed he wasn't nerfed nor taken out. Strength in Melee shouldn't, and most likely won't, affect Brawl.

Please don't insinuate that I don't want to honour the series. My hatred of these charcaters' unbalanced movesets is precisely because I think that they dishonur the series with their utter cheepness. I love tons of games - but Melee is by far the very best video game ever.

Sorry.

Hope your right about more than 3 charcaters, but I doubt it. And Ike is certainly the Lord most able to represent the series, more so than Marth who is loved on in Japan and in Melee among spammers who lack the skill to play as anyone else.

Same here, on the amount of characters. Still no reason to actually cut Marth from the game.

I listened. I also disagreed. I still do.

Compared to more original FE charcaters like Mikiaiah, Marth is just a pale shadow of Ike.

Then looks like I won't be able to do anymore on that issue than to ask you to research swords and sword fighting styles to find the differences, although they are pretty obvious.

I share your sentiments about Sothe, but I would still prefer his orginality over Marth.

And read my post again. I said unique "presence", not moveset. Think of Luigi, Ganondorf and Young Link. They all brought cool and unique personalities to Brawl, in spite of being clones.

If they have to include a clone, rather than a completely new character, they could do worse than the Black Knight. As clones go, a huge dude in menacing Black amour with really slow attacks and high attack power as well as a teleoporting move, would be pretty awesome (in my personal opinion).

Then I misunderstood.

I do realize that it was released on the Gamecube, the most underapreciated Nintendo console since the Virtual Boy, yes. Frankly, I'm pretty impressed that it came as close to the GBA games as it did, considering the Bazillions of GBAs out there.

And I noticed that the sales numbers you provided are limited to Japan. I'm thinking that would show more accurately how many Fire Emblem fans are around TODAY. Not back in the days of the SNES.

FE7 and FE8 weren't exactly the best of the games. Nor was FE6 but it was much harder than the majority of the other games, most people I've seen at FESS and places like that agree that Normal mode on FE6 is at least 2x harder than Hector Hard Mode in FE7.

I would argue, just the same, against GBA Fire Emblem charcaters; they are popular in the west, but the Japanese consider them inferior to the console games. And Since Sakurai's poll demonstrates that the Japanese love PoR charcaters more than any other FE game (four characters in total) I'm saying that the Japanese wouldn't be as devastated as you think to see Ike replace Marth. Many would probably welcome it.

Because they were too easy, other than FE6. One of the reasons FE7 was hated a lot in Japan is because there was actually a tutorial mode where the Japanese had been playing for the past 12-13 years.

The only reason that marth is popular outside of Japan is because he IS the one of te most powerful charcaters around. When Ike comes around as a more powerful charcater, Marth will be just another gut with a sword to anyon who hasn't played his games. Thus, he should not be included.

Same would go for Ike. He'll just be another guy with a sword in Brawl if the person hasn't played a Fire Emblem game. You do realize that there were people who didn't even know who Samus was in SSB64, right?

You misunderstand me. Ike can shoot actual engery projectiles out of his Ragnell sword in PoR. Roy has no such move. But even if he did, its irrevlivant to the point I'm making.

Actually he does. The Sword of Seals has a range of 1~2. Look on YouTube for it. But Roy effectively hurls a fire ball that explodes in a pillar of flame on impact. I say effectively because they weren't actually able to show it, but it is easily implied.

Say what you will about his game, but Ike was tied as the second most requested character on the poll. He is universally popular.

I'm not trying to say Ike won't be in. I'm saying that there isn't a reason to take out Marth. Although I actually hate Ike I'll still support him for Brawl because he does hold enough importance to Fire Emblem, although it is shared like Lyn & Co., to make it into Brawl.

My reasons were all true. My pointing out the obvious fact that a Marth looks like a sissy does not change that.

However you shouldn't go down to mere insults and use them as points in an argument.

Fair enough. Maybe we see things differently.

Probably do.

Let's see if I can break this down for you. If I took all the people in Japan who will buy Goddess of Dawn in my left hand hand and all the people in the United States, Canada, Europe, Austrailia and the rest of the world who will buy Goddess of Dawn in my right hand, which hand will have more Fire Emblem fans?

Goddess of Dawn has been out for only a month of two. Also of course the hand with the other countries will be larger, there are a larger number of people. Thats like saying if the people in this town of 25 all bought this and the people in this town of 100,000 all bought this. Who would've bought more? Obviously it'll be the town of 100,000. I know its an exaggeration but it works. [offtopic]Also there really is a town about 15 or so mile away from where I live where the population actually is 25.[/offtopic]

Fox and Falco actually take a little skill and practice before they can dominate all other people not playing as a high tier charcater. Anyone with ten fingers and half a brain can pick up Sheik or Marth. These same people would play as Mewtwo and Jigglypuff if they had Marth's stupidly cheap moveset.

Like I said about. Marth's moveset isn't that cheap. I switched over to him when I knew I had lost to EarthBowser and didn't even get a single stock off of him where I had been getting 2 or 3 stock off of him with Roy.

Yeah, but since most non-Japanese gamers will never play them, they are irrelivant to non-Japanese Fire Emblem fans.

Doesn't cancel out relevance.

I only count games that all gamers had an opportunity to buy. All the rest are irrelevant to this discussion. So far, all the Fire Emblem games released worldwide have sold more outside Japan than from within.

Technically, people always had the ability to buy it. Its called importing.

Sakurai's poll tells a different story.

Didn't say it didn't.

Maybe we should start talking about Miciaiah more. As one of the main lords in Goddess of Dawn as well as a charcater guaranteed to have a unique moveset, she is a far better choice than Marth.

Maybe we should talk about Micaiah more, but how do you get off saying that Marth wouldn't have a unique moveset when you are claiming you'd give HIS MOVESET to Ike. Sounds like Ike would be the unoriginal one.

I'm just speculating, but I think I'm onto something.

Well remember the old saying. "Never assume. It makes an *** out of you and me.

Show me the global sales of the three internationally released Fire Emblems and we'll talk.

Wish I could. But VGCharts.org doesn't have any data for sales under 1,000,000 in any other area other than Japan.

Well I have many theories about this:

1) In april 2005, the GC was already dead, or just cult. Baten Kaitos Origins sold in February 2006 just 26k!!! And Baten Kaitos, even with its low sales, is regarded as a fan favorite. That's one of the reasons to why PoR sold so badly. The US market is an exception: Twilight Princess sold very well for a GC title, while in Japan the game was only sold through online stores due to low demand.
2) Let's face reality: PoR "visuals" were horrible, and that may have been a let down to many people.
3) Fire Emblem, as the whole Simulation RPG genre, has a very niche market. The GBA releases in the US may have expanded it, giving it "fresh blood", because the active fans may be (or are) few.
4) GBA titles are more focused to new players, and they were well received by new players in both markets, but the PoR one was more hardcore, with characters with development, a darker, deeper plot and many things that could have been... too much? For these new and casual players, which could be seeking pick and play games.

Goddess of the Dawn sold 132k and then disappeared from the top ten, showing that the FE fanbase has changed and the series doesn't have a bright future as a home console exclusive, as well as Tellius being the worst received saga terms of sales. What a shame.

1. That is why games like that are given the label "cult".

2. I didn't like PoR that much, although I'll be playing it through at least once before GoD gets here.

3. Yes it does have a nice market, here. In Japan its a different story. Path of Radiance could've been a let down although it brought back numerous aspects because most of what was brought back were just half-***** versions of their FE4 incarnations.

4. I can assure you that with the difficulty of FE6 it was aimed at the hardcore. However it was Intelligent System's first partaking of the GBA so it probably didn't turn out the way that they wanted and I doubt that they know what they could've put in. In all reality, it could've easily had the same quality that FE4 and FE5 did they just didn't know what they could do.

 

[GenG]

FE6 couldn't possibly be (overall, of course) at the same league of FE4 or 5, just because its plot was a rehash of the first titles. Many characters roles and situations from them, for example (simple and superficial example): Roy is Marth, Marcus is Jeigan, Rutger is Navare, Dieck is Oguma (and so on), and the development of the plot was very FE1-3-ish, kind of superficial, as some kind of tribute. It may be possible that the hardcore fanbase misinterpreted the plot as a tribute of sorts, and thought it was a lack of ideas or to "fool" the new players into something old. However, the new fans couldn't have noticed this, as it happened with Gundam SEED too. Is considered the black sheep of the Gundam franchise for its tremendous rehash, but the new fans won't know about because they never saw the rest of the series in the first place.

Gameplay wise I think FE6 redefined the franchise for portable (pick and play) gaming, but it lacked new features, and with the removal of some of the better ones (Skills) it resulted in a very simplistic gameplay compared with past titles. Again, happy new players.

The game as a whole could have been disappointing for older fans who got FE6 directly after playing FE4 or 5, but not for the new players. I'm not saying that FE6 sucks and FE9 rox, I think both games had their purpose fullfilled, and FE6 was more like a new beginning for the franchise, a really needed one, while FE9 being the first (IMO) original Fire Emblem in terms of plot since Thracia 776, returning to the heavy politics and things that made FE one of the best S-RPG of its era (character development for example), but with crappy visuals and a not so perfect gameplay.

Sure, I forgot FE6 difficulty, which was pretty good. Even in easy-as-cake FE7 some bosses were watered down for the US release. However, I still can't understand things like removing the Mania mode in PoR for the US version. Why?

 

[Chief Mendez]

Even if there are more people outside of Japan than inside, you can't deny that the majority of FE players isn't Japanese. That's a key point of my argument, and one that has no counterpoint in reality.

No, we don't have as long of a history with the games, but we do buy them more. Does that not count for anything?

GreenMamba: I'm still arguing because I don't want to see Marth return. I know, I know: it's a tough pill to swallow...but please try.

And it's not like I'm hurting anything, am I?

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying people look down on it when it isn't needed. FE6 was a good game and definitely a rebound after FE5 was made available ONLY through Nintendo's website. Also talking about characters, there is a reason they are called archetypes. They set the standard for classes.

I don't know why they took out skills either.

They took out Mania for probably the reason they gave use the SMB2 that we got, the real SMB2 can be found in Super Mario All-Stars as Super Mario Brothers: The Lost Levels. They deemed it too hard for us.

 

[Wiseguy]

Fox was unbalanced in 64 as well. Seeing as you already noticed he wasn't nerfed nor taken out. Strength in Melee shouldn't, and most likely won't, affect Brawl.

Fox was certainly overbalanced in 64, but it was nothing compared to Melee. For example, in 64, I recall that two equally skilled players could play as Foz and Donkey Kong and have decent match. In Melee, this same fight would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

Judging by his revamped appearance, I have a feeling that Sakurai will do the just thing and nerf Fox back down to the middle tier.

Then looks like I won't be able to do anymore on that issue than to ask you to research swords and sword fighting styles to find the differences, although they are pretty obvious.

I understand that they have slightly different fighting styles. Ike is slower, uses horizontal slices and has a ranged attack. Marth is fast, uses vertical slices and has no ranged attack. This means that the two charcaters would have to have their own unique movesets, but that they would be extremely similar in that thay would both fight exclusively with large swords. Fire Emblem is about more than just sword fighters.

My point is that I think its far more likely that if they make another unique FE charcater in addition to Ike, it will be Miciaiah becasue she would be far MORE unique than Marth.

Same would go for Ike. He'll just be another guy with a sword in Brawl if the person hasn't played a Fire Emblem game. You do realize that there were people who didn't even know who Samus was in SSB64, right?

Yeah, I didn't know who Samus was either. But as soon as I got my Gamecube I bought Metroid Prime right away to find out.

My point is that half the fun of playing Smash Bros. is recognizing all your favorite charcaters from past games. It also makes financial sense for Nintendo to included characters from games that people can buy. ("Ike is so awesome in Brawl. Maybe I should go buy Path of Radiance and see if its any good.")

Most Non-Japanese people will never import a Japanese FE game, like it or not. It would be preferable to include FE charcaters from interantionally released games.

I'm not trying to say Ike won't be in. I'm saying that there isn't a reason to take out Marth. Although I actually hate Ike I'll still support him for Brawl because he does hold enough importance to Fire Emblem, although it is shared like Lyn & Co., to make it into Brawl.

The reason to take out Marth is beacuse he takes up a valuable spot on the charcater roster that could easily go to a more unique FE character. With Ike's iminent inclusion, Brawl has surely met it's quota of blue-haired, male swordweilding Fire Emblem lords with capes. It would be like including both Ninten from the orginal Mother and Ness from Mother 2.

Goddess of Dawn has been out for only a month of two. Also of course the hand with the other countries will be larger, there are a larger number of people. Thats like saying if the people in this town of 25 all bought this and the people in this town of 100,000 all bought this. Who would've bought more? Obviously it'll be the town of 100,000. I know its an exaggeration but it works. [offtopic]Also there really is a town about 15 or so mile away from where I live where the population actually is 25.[/offtopic]

My point is simple: today, there are more Fire Emblem fans outside of Japan than inside, so there is no reason to include Japanese only charcaters. Likewise, there is no reason to include charcaters from the GBA FEs because the were not well recieved in Japan. The best course of action would be to include charcaters from PoR and GoD, as those are games that FE fans everywhere can appreciate.

Maybe we should talk about Micaiah more, but how do you get off saying that Marth wouldn't have a unique moveset when you are claiming you'd give HIS MOVESET to Ike. Sounds like Ike would be the unoriginal one.

I don't think I ever said that Marth's moveset should be just handed over to Ike. I think that the two would undoubtibly play similar enough that, when Ike replaces Marth, Marth fans won't be totally alienated. The less FE savy of them might just conclude that he is a more recent incarnation of Marth, only middle tier and with a ranged attack.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Judging by his revamped appearance, I have a feeling that Sakurai will do the just thing and nerf Fox back down to the middle tier.

That's a little bit presumptuous, don't you think? I don't see how altering his appearance m,eans that they're going to drastically nerf him. We haven't really seen enough of him in action to see how plays compared to his former self, so we'll have to wait and see.

I understand that they have slightly different fighting styles. Ike is slower, uses horizontal slices and has a ranged attack. Marth is fast, uses vertical slices and has no ranged attack. This means that the two charcaters would have to have their own unique movesets, but that they would be extremely similar in that thay would both fight exclusively with large swords. Fire Emblem is about more than just sword fighters.

My point is that I think its far more likely that if they make another unique FE charcater in addition to Ike, it will be Miciaiah becasue she would be far MORE unique than Marth.

It's a bit more than that I feel. Marth is really the more discaplined, elegant swordsman, who requires stratergy to be used effectively (spacing is really important for Marth, otherwise his attacks are very ineffective). Ike's style is a lot rougher though, largely self taught and focuses a lot more on brute force. I believe I said earlier that Ike could thow a few punches and kicks in his moveset, simply as he strikes me as the kind of guy to do so.

And as much as I want Micaiah in Brawl, I think you're overating her chances somewhat. She has a chance but she's going to have to stuggle against other characters to get in.

The reason to take out Marth is beacuse he takes up a valuable spot on the charcater roster that could easily go to a more unique FE character. With Ike's iminent inclusion, Brawl has surely met it's quota of blue-haired, male swordweilding Fire Emblem lords with capes. It would be like including both Ninten from the orginal Mother and Ness from Mother 2.

If you weren't advocating the Black Knight so much then it'd probably be easier for me to accept this point from you. Regardless, you make them sound a lot similar than they actually are. They look different enough to be recognised as seperate characters (if we are going on Ike getting in with GoD style), and blue hair has always been important in the FE series anyway XD

My point is simple: today, there are more Fire Emblem fans outside of Japan than inside, so there is no reason to include Japanese only charcaters. Likewise, there is no reason to include charcaters from the GBA FEs because the were not well recieved in Japan. The best course of action would be to include charcaters from PoR and GoD, as those are games that FE fans everywhere can appreciate.

Probably concerning the newer FE's, but I still think there are more FE fans in Japan in general. It just seems to be a lot more hardcore than the casual fans found internationally (and what is it with the Japanese thinking we can't handle difficulty in our games, it's not just the Fe series they do it with)

I don't think I ever said that Marth's moveset should be just handed over to Ike. I think that the two would undoubtibly play similar enough that, when Ike replaces Marth, Marth fans won't be totally alienated. The less FE savy of them might just conclude that he is a more recent incarnation of Marth, only middle tier and with a ranged attack.

I guess this is just personal perception, but I don't really see Ike playing the same way as Marth. I doubt Ike would have any specific strong point on his sword like Marth (or Roy for that matter), and I just can't really see Ike pulling off some of the moves Marth does. Plus, one of Marth's greatest weaknesses was his lack of any ranged ability. I also don't like predicting wher characters will be on the tier list, though as long as Ike (or any of my favourites that make it) play well for me I guess I don't really care.

 

[Wiseguy]

It's a bit more than that I feel. Marth is really the more discaplined, elegant swordsman, who requires stratergy to be used effectively (spacing is really important for Marth, otherwise his attacks are very ineffective). Ike's style is a lot rougher though, largely self taught and focuses a lot more on brute force. I believe I said earlier that Ike could thow a few punches and kicks in his moveset, simply as he strikes me as the kind of guy to do so.

I'm not so sure about punches and kicks. In Path of Radiance Ike fights exclusively with his weapon, as do all sword weilding characters in FE. True, his personality could be called less disiplined, but I don't see that translating into his potential moveset. That way I see, Ike would require no less strategy to use that Marth. Perhaps even more so, becauue in my experience Marth users love to spam the same three moves over and over and over....

If you weren't advocating the Black Knight so much then it'd probably be easier for me to accept this point from you. Regardless, you make them sound a lot similar than they actually are. They look different enough to be recognised as seperate characters (if we are going on Ike getting in with GoD style), and blue hair has always been important in the FE series anyway XD

I think I've been pretty clear. If the Samsh team doesn't have the time to include an original charcater in addition to Ike, the Black Knight has excellent chances of being a Roy-esque clone. If they have the time to make another original charcater (like Marth, Hector or Miciaiah) then BK's chances are pretty low.

Probably concerning the newer FE's, but I still think there are more FE fans in Japan in general. It just seems to be a lot more hardcore than the casual fans found internationally (and what is it with the Japanese thinking we can't handle difficulty in our games, it's not just the Fe series they do it with)

It's impossible to quantify which group of people loves a game series more. All we have to go on are sales numbers to determine how many FE fans are in a given area.

I guess this is just personal perception, but I don't really see Ike playing the same way as Marth. I doubt Ike would have any specific strong point on his sword like Marth (or Roy for that matter), and I just can't really see Ike pulling off some of the moves Marth does. Plus, one of Marth's greatest weaknesses was his lack of any ranged ability. I also don't like predicting wher characters will be on the tier list, though as long as Ike (or any of my favourites that make it) play well for me I guess I don't really care.

Look at the sword fighters already announced for Brawl: Link, Metaknight and Pit. They each have radically different appearances and fighting styles. Clearly, Sakurai is going for the most diverse cast of characters possible. You have to admit, comapred to the other charcaters, Marth and Ike are awefully awfully similar.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I'm not so sure about punches and kicks. In Path of Radiance Ike fights exclusively with his weapon, as do all sword weilding characters in FE. True, his personality could be called less disiplined, but I don't see that translating into his potential moveset. That way I see, Ike would require no less strategy to use that Marth. Perhaps even more so, becauue in my experience Marth users love to spam the same three moves over and over and over....

Sakurai generally gives his own touch to the characters, and if he reflects Ike's personality I can see him putting in a few close combat moves (I'm pretty sure Link has a kick somewhere). And you can't really say Ike has more stratergy than Marth when he's not in the game yet, though I've never seen Marth players rely on as few as 3 moves (at least I sure don'y). What I mean about Ike being less stratergy based is that he won't have a sweet spot, as well as being able to dish out big damage as well as take (Marth was never amongst the most durable of characters).

This is kind of pointless though because our personal take on Ike is probably a lot different than Sakurai's. He could make Ike as graceful as a ballerina for all we know.

I think I've been pretty clear. If the Samsh team doesn't have the time to include an original charcater in addition to Ike, the Black Knight has excellent chances of being a Roy-esque clone. If they have the time to make another original charcater (like Marth, Hector or Miciaiah) then BK's chances are pretty low.

I know, I wasn't being very serious about this point (hence the' XD'). I guess all I'm trying to say is that as long as Marth and Ike are given enough variety in style they can be appreciated as different characters. At least that's how I feel, though I respect that you don't necessarily.

It's impossible to quantify which group of people loves a game series more. All we have to go on are sales numbers to determine how many FE fans are in a given area.

It's debatable, but due to the popularity of the older FE's in Japan, I'd say there's a chance that there are a lot of older fans that didn't move on to the new generation of games. I'd still say it's more likely that there are more Fe fans in Japan than any other country.

Look at the sword fighters already announced for Brawl: Link, Metaknight and Pit. They each have radically different appearances and fighting styles. Clearly, Sakurai is going for the most diverse cast of characters possible. You have to admit, comapred to the other charcaters, Marth and Ike are awefully awfully similar.

I really hesitate to call Pit a swordfighter. His style is incredibly unusual as he's able to link his two blades together and use it in a circular fashion that I don't think any other character in Nintendo's history has anything close to. Putting him in the same group as Link, MetaKnight and Marth kind of cheapens his uniqueness IMO. Sorry it's just a personal beef of mine.

Aesthetically they have a couple of similarities (though personally I think there are more between Marth and Roy than Marth and Ike), but like I said, as long as their playstyle seperates them enough, that's really all i care about.

 

[Caael]

I cant see Ike being too different from Marth. If he's a clone, i'll sue. Well maybe not, but it would be silly to have a new FE character to have exactly the same moves as another. You might as well just have Ike as an alternative costume for Marth, it would be better than him being a clone.

 

[Chief Mendez]

I cant see Ike being too different from Marth. If he's a clone, i'll sue. Well maybe not, but it would be silly to have a new FE character to have exactly the same moves as another. You might as well just have Ike as an alternative costume for Marth, it would be better than him being a clone.

Ah, but if Marth doesn't return, then there'd be no problem drawing inspiration for Ike (his moveset, that is) from Marth.

And no, he'd probably play in the same manner (quick, powerful single strikes with a sword), but he wouldn't be a carbon copy either.

 

[DainBramaged]

Personally, I don't like Ike, and I hope PoR's low sales keep him out. Marth's moveset shall NOT be passed on, nor imitated!!! Besides, Sothe is supposed to star in an up and coming game for the Wii, and out of possible new Fire Emblem characters, I think he'd be in before Ike. And with Sothe, I think it's vitually impossible for him to be a Marth clone.

 

[BadassCyborg3000]

Hello. I'm new here. And I like Fire Emblem A LOT which is why I'm attracted to this thread. Personally, I like Roy a lot and find that while Marth is an important member of Fire Emblem's history, every time I fight him I have the urge to obliterate him with the fires of the Sword of Seals. I use Roy instead of Marth only because the first FE I played involved Roy's father, Eliwood. I have used Marth before, and I recognize his strength, but I don't think Roy should be taken out. Although he is a clone of Marth, his fighting style is different. I'm not going to get into that, since you people are a lot more familiar with his strengths than I am. But, if he did have to be replaced he should be Sigurd, Hector or, surprisingly, Jigen/Marcus. Sigurd is very popular in the FE community. Jigen is a representative of the FE spirit of challenge, since most new players take advantage of the strong character and neglect their other characters. Marcus is the most recent Jigen, and lots of FE players know Marcus for screwing people over in America in FE7 and by being a horrible character in FE6. Hector is a 3rd/4th option since Eliwood is a Marth clone in every way and Hector was the first Lord with an Axe. Most FE players like Hector and it would be sweet if he became a representative of Fire Emblem.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Yay for Hector!

Which game is Jigen from? The only two non-localized FEs I've touched are FE1 (did not finish) and FE6 (finished, but didn't like). Anyway, I'd like to see basically anyone other than Marth...but I don't think you'll find much support outside of me; the others are pro-Marth.

Oh, and "FE reps have to be Lords".

EDIT - Oh, and is it the same BadassCyborg I'm thinking of; the one from TS2/3?

 

[DarkKnight077]

Hector? An Ax-wielder? Come on...be reasonable an Ax? Seriously I would rather Roy than Hector. I didn't like him very much...But I would rather Roy. Roy has a cool back story that's why plus his blade is all over the place. In...I can't remember which GBA FE game was.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Hector? An Ax-wielder? Come on...be reasonable an Ax? Seriously I would rather Roy than Hector. I didn't like him very much...But I would rather Roy. Roy has a cool back story that's why plus his blade is all over the place. In...I can't remember which GBA FE game was.

Hey, don't knock Hector: he was easily the coolest lord from FE7, and an axman would be awesome in Smash. What's wrong with axes?

 

[DarkKnight077]

Basically..that an axe would be over powering for example..a sword. Besides no love for the guy from Golden Sun who uses an axe too? Which..again can't remember his name. I think it was Guy...no?

 

[trademark0013]

^^^

Samus as missles flying at u. i'm sure missle are more powerful than axes.

marth should stay because who else am i gonna do double faris with? sheik? never!!!!

(<----- forgot he mains sheik at the moment)

roy should stay so Neo and Masashi have ppl to play as ^_^

 

[Chief Mendez]

Basically..that an axe would be over powering for example..a sword. Besides no love for the guy from Golden Sun who uses an axe too? Which..again can't remember his name. I think it was Guy...no?

Garet was the axe guy, but in GS, anyone who wasn't a wimpy clairvoyant (Ivan) or a girl (Mia) could use axes.

And clearly you've never heard of a little something called the Weapon Triangle.

 

[Shieldkrusher]

Wow, this thread went further than I expected *Shrug*

 

[Chief Mendez]

Wow, this thread went further than I expected *Shrug*

Well, it's a hot topic. What did you expect?

 

[Shoun Aiako]

They should keep both Marth and Roy in Brawl; the only thing that isn't all that great about Roy is his sword. It doesn't work near as good as Marth's, as far as carrying combos, and finishing with spikes... He has good mind games if you know how to use him right, but to put it clear and simple, he's not "tournament" material. Ken became the best in the world with "Marth" because Marth has that potential, but Roy... lets see if a MLG tournament is ever won with Roy. I doubt it is possible, and I sincerely say this not trying to be ignorant, or offensive toward any Roy users.

Marth on the other hand will definitely make it back to Brawl... or "should" make it back to Brawl. If he did make it to Brawl I doubt he would be as good as he is in Melee, which would only be fair in my opinion. But then again, there more people then you think who can't stand Marth because they consider him too good, too easy to master, and so on... So at the same time it is difficult to know for sure. All I can say is, I'm glad that Melee is over with, finally. Whether Brawl has Marth and Roy or not, once Brawl comes into the picture, Melee will be collecting dust.

 

[gamefreak55]

I think Marth deserves to be in the next smash bros. Everyone Usees him. He is really famous in Japan. Roy though I don't think he should be in. He is just another clone of marth only slower and has fire (which doesn't do ****). Take him out and put someone like hecter in we need a person with an axe.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

We're not judging characters worthiness of returning due to their performance in melee, seeing as chances are many characters will change during the transition to Brawl. It doesn't matter that Marth is one of the most efficient characters in the tournament scene, it'll be his merits as a Nintendo representitive that'll determine whether he returns or not.

Honestly, I want him to return but not because he's top tier character, otherwise Sheik would have my full support.

 

[Chief Mendez]

They should keep both Marth and Roy in Brawl; the only thing that isn't all that great about Roy is his sword. It doesn't work near as good as Marth's, as far as carrying combos, and finishing with spikes... He has good mind games if you know how to use him right, but to put it clear and simple, he's not "tournament" material. Ken became the best in the world with "Marth" because Marth has that potential, but Roy... lets see if a MLG tournament is ever won with Roy. I doubt it is possible, and I sincerely say this not trying to be ignorant, or offensive toward any Roy users.

Marth on the other hand will definitely make it back to Brawl... or "should" make it back to Brawl. If he did make it to Brawl I doubt he would be as good as he is in Melee, which would only be fair in my opinion. But then again, there more people then you think who can't stand Marth because they consider him too good, too easy to master, and so on... So at the same time it is difficult to know for sure. All I can say is, I'm glad that Melee is over with, finally. Whether Brawl has Marth and Roy or not, once Brawl comes into the picture, Melee will be collecting dust.

I think someone needs to read a few of the previous pages before posting.

In short:
Roy was only in for promotion of FE6. He is not returning.
Marth is cheap.
Diamond version comes out in two days.
The FE fighters in Brawl should also be international FE characters.
Yay for new Smash.

I think Marth deserves to be in the next smash bros. Everyone Usees him. He is really famous in Japan. Roy though I don't think he should be in. He is just another clone of marth only slower and has fire (which doesn't do ****). Take him out and put someone like hecter in we need a person with an axe.

Everyone uses him because he's cheap, he's NOT FAMOUS anywhere else, and you're right about Roy and Hector.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Everyone uses him because he's cheap

That's Sheik's job. Sheik is WAY more cheap than Marth, so she should get removed first. I know people who use bot Sheik and Marth for fun.

he's NOT FAMOUS anywhere else

That is bull and everyone knows it, so stop using that excuse. I say he as earned quite a reputation in Smash.

 

[Chief Mendez]

That is bull and everyone knows it, so stop using that excuse. I say he as earned quite a reputation in Smash.

Ahem...

In short:

That right there is a synonym for "summary". Geez, I'd have thought that a regular like you would've picked that up, but I guess not.

Anyway, you know what I mean by "Marth's not popular anywhere else", and I'm not typing it out for you. If you truly have forgotten what I've said over the last few pages; time for review.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

That right there is a synonym for "summary". Geez, I'd have thought that a regular like you would've picked that up, but I guess not.

WTF? That has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Either way, your "summary" was this

In short:
Roy was only in for promotion of FE6. He is not returning.
Marth is cheap.
Diamond version comes out in two days.
The FE fighters in Brawl should also be international FE characters.
Yay for new Smash.

The only thing that has any credibility is Roy's promotion. You're comment on how Marth is cheap really has no valid reason for him to be cut. As for international FE characters, I say yes.

WHY. NOT. BOTH.

Anyway, you know what I mean by "Marth's not popular anywhere else", and I'm not typing it out for you. If you truly have forgotten what I've said over the last few pages; time for review.

The only thing I got was that from that is that he is not popular. Which he is. Get over it.

 

[Chief Mendez]

WTF? That has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

O RLY? I was summing up the very barest of my points for the new guy(s). If you've read my posts, you'd know why I said what I said. If you're really not up to going back a few pages, I'll do it in a quote or two.

Just say the word.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

O RLY? I was summing up the very barest of my points for the new guy(s). If you've read my posts, you'd know why I said what I said. If you're really not up to going back a few pages, I'll do it in a quote or two.

Just say the word.

I looked back, there was really nothing worth quoting that you haven't said before.

 

[Shieldkrusher]

In response to all the Marth/Roy/Sheik are "cheap" comments:

How can you claim these characters are cheap but there is no mention of Fox being cheap?

But that is besides the point, I don't really see any character as "cheap" People just use that as an excuse when they are getting their *** handed to them because they are poor losers.

 

[roy is my boi]

what the friggin hell all yall are friggin talking about is marth and ike marth and ike yll are just jumping on the friggin bandwagon!! Roy is the best better thsn marth much better jeez!!!

 

[BadassCyborg3000]

Yay for Hector!

Which game is Jigen from? The only two non-localized FEs I've touched are FE1 (did not finish) and FE6 (finished, but didn't like). Anyway, I'd like to see basically anyone other than Marth...but I don't think you'll find much support outside of me; the others are pro-Marth.

Oh, and "FE reps have to be Lords".

EDIT - Oh, and is it the same BadassCyborg I'm thinking of; the one from TS2/3?

Yes it is. I doubt anyone else would call themselves a BadassCyborg3000. Jigen is from FE/FE3. Jigen isn't a Lord, but he was the Marcus to Marth.

I don't consider Fox as cheap as Falco. Fox's blaster doesn't stun you. He is the quicker, weaker original. Falco is the stronger, slower, Blaster-stunning creature that has been the bane of Roy's existence since I've started playing Super Smash Bros. again. I'm already training with Mario to prepare for the loss of Roy. And the first thing I'm doing once I get SSBB is unlock Solid Snake to beat the crap out of Falco with my Stinger missiles and CQC.

 

[Wiseguy]

Miss me?

O.K., just to clarify the case against Marth for those of you who just joined us (including, ironically enough, the person who started this fine thread: SheildCrusher).

1) Since Fire Emblem lacks the massive fanbase of Zelda or Pokemon, we can probably expect only 2-3 Fire Emblem charcaters in Brawl. Realistically, that is.

2) If Marth returns, it will be as a representative of Fire Emblem fans, not becasue he was popular in Melee. His importance to the franchise is key.

3) Since there are currently more Fire Emblem fans outside of Japan than inside, Marth makes a poor representative of the franchise because the majority of FE fans will never play his game.

4) He is popular outside of Japan, but not because of his role as a Fire Emblem lord but because of his ridiculously overpowered moveset. Since he would undoubtably be nerfed, these "fans" would simply choose a different overpowered character.

5) Ike, the main lord from the two most recent Fire Emblem games, is considered extremely similar to Marth in both appearance and fighting technique (I've actually witnessed non FE fans mix up the two.) He is the most popular FE lord both internationally and in Japan. Ike should simply replace Marth, making room for more origianl FE characters.

 

[GenG]

I've actually witnessed non FE fans mix up the two.

Yes, the same people who mix up Eliwood and Roy, or Hector and Marth. DUH.

 

[BadassCyborg3000]

Non FE players will confuse Marth with Hector.
Something wrong with people who confused those two. Eliwood and Roy I am a little more lenient about since children usually have the traits of their parents.

 

[Chief Mendez]

I looked back, there was really nothing worth quoting that you haven't said before.

Well then just read Wiseguy's most recent post.

 

[pirate-404]

1) Since Fire Emblem lacks the massive fanbase of Zelda or Pokemon, we can probably expect only 2-3 Fire Emblem charcaters in Brawl. Realistically, that is.

Irrelevant. Zelda is, if not close to, Nintendo's biggest franchise, yet there are only three Zelda characters in comparison to the two other big franchises like Mario and Pokemon which have a lot more representatives.

2) If Marth returns, it will be as a representative of Fire Emblem fans, not becasue he was popular in Melee. His importance to the franchise is key.

And his importance is clear as the protagonist of the very first Fire Emblem.

3) Since there are currently more Fire Emblem fans outside of Japan than inside, Marth makes a poor representative of the franchise because the majority of FE fans will never play his game.

You have no evidence to support your claim. Who says there are more Fire Emblem fans outside of Japan than in it? In fact, I would argue the opposite as there have only been three titles released outside of Japan in comparison to the Japan-only six that were released prior to those three.

4) He is popular outside of Japan, but not because of his role as a Fire Emblem lord but because of his ridiculously overpowered moveset. Since he would undoubtably be nerfed, these "fans" would simply choose a different overpowered character.

By your logic, no one would ever play anyone but Fox.

5) Ike, the main lord from the two most recent Fire Emblem games, is considered extremely similar to Marth in both appearance and fighting technique (I've actually witnessed non FE fans mix up the two.) He is the most popular FE lord both internationally and in Japan. Ike should simply replace Marth, making room for more origianl FE characters.

Considered extremely similar by whom? Yourself, maybe?

Who would've thought that people would actually question Marth's return?

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

I think someone needs to read a few of the previous pages before posting.

In short:
Roy was only in for promotion of FE6. He is not returning.
Marth is cheap.
Diamond version comes out in two days.
The FE fighters in Brawl should also be international FE characters.
Yay for new Smash.


Everyone uses him because he's cheap, he's NOT FAMOUS anywhere else, and you're right about Roy and Hector.

1. Fuuin no Tsurugi came out only a few months after Melee did and Nintendo promoted Fuuin no Tsurugi as well as him being in Melee. I still can't believe you can't look at a characters importance to the series instead of just looking for the easiest flaw, which definitely seems to be what you're doing.

2. That has absolutely no relevance in the topic. I love how both you and WiseGuy have done almost nothing but harp on that. Maybe you just lose to Marth far too often. I can tell you that Marth isn't a brainless character with a cheap move set. I tried to play Marth and got beat down faster than I did with Roy, this was against EarthBowser only back in February.

3. Once again. What does that have to do with the topic at all.

4. That is purely opinion. Really there are only a couple of characters outside of Japan who hold any significance to the series at all, these characters being Lyn/Eliwood/Hector(Depends on who you attribute the first English Lord title to), Ike, and Micaiah. Those are the only characters who would represent the FE franchise outside of Japan.

5. Yet again you bring up a point that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC!

Do you honestly not take the time to look at what you type? Marth is popular outside of Japan. Just because there are only two methods to play his games outside of Japan doesn't mean he has no fans. Also I love how you blatantly disregard the fact, or at least have never gone and checked, that a lot of the attacks seem to take off of Roy's Sword of Seals sprite sheet. The closest Marth ever came to any attack like that was a single vertical slash. Not to mention they left out moves from Roy such as his long range attack.

Miss me?

O.K., just to clarify the case against Marth for those of you who just joined us (including, ironically enough, the person who started this fine thread: SheildCrusher).

1) Since Fire Emblem lacks the massive fanbase of Zelda or Pokemon, we can probably expect only 2-3 Fire Emblem charcaters in Brawl. Realistically, that is.

2) If Marth returns, it will be as a representative of Fire Emblem fans, not becasue he was popular in Melee. His importance to the franchise is key.

3) Since there are currently more Fire Emblem fans outside of Japan than inside, Marth makes a poor representative of the franchise because the majority of FE fans will never play his game.

4) He is popular outside of Japan, but not because of his role as a Fire Emblem lord but because of his ridiculously overpowered moveset. Since he would undoubtably be nerfed, these "fans" would simply choose a different overpowered character.

5) Ike, the main lord from the two most recent Fire Emblem games, is considered extremely similar to Marth in both appearance and fighting technique (I've actually witnessed non FE fans mix up the two.) He is the most popular FE lord both internationally and in Japan. Ike should simply replace Marth, making room for more origianl FE characters.

1. All you'd really need to add is Ike or Lyn anyways. Marth and Roy are important to the series, despite what you want to believe.

2. Weren't you the one saying that Marth had no significance to the series before?

3. Oh my god! The game might as well not exist then, according to you. It doesn't matter if they've never played it. Just because they don't have something doesn't mean it has no importance. Imagine if the first Fire Emblem game never came out. We might not even have the series!

Want to know an interesting little fact? Just because you've never heard of a law doesn't mean you don't have to follow it. If you break that law you can still be charged with it.

4. Here we go again with the "Marth is cheap and brainless" comments. You must really lose to Marth a lot to have this large of a vendetta against him. Pirate is correct in saying that everyone would play Fox by your logic.

5. I've only seen you and Chief consider them like that. In no way, other than appearance, are they similar. They have different sword fighting styles! It doesn't matter if they have the same weapon! I've also witnessed people mix up Eliwood and Roy and Hector and Marth. By your logic if Hector got in he would fight just like Marth!

Eliwood and Roy I can understand seeing as how they are genetically linked. But ignorance can't excuse mixing up Hector/Marth or Ike/Marth. They just have far too different features.

Also I love how you say to take out Marth for a more original FE character. Yeah. You can really get more original than the original FE character.