Marth/Roy, Should They Make The Cut?

[Chief Mendez]

If saying Marth is the face of FE is the same as saying Cloud is the face of FF, then Marth is undeniably the face of FE.

Looks like I pinched a nerve or something with that statement, eh?

I stand by what I said. If you think Cloud is the main FF hero, then you clearly never played VI. You probably started with VII and went from there.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Looks like I pinched a nerve or something with that statement, eh?

Not really, just showing the nonsense of your post. I hate Cloud (too emo for my tastes), but for some strange reason, he is as popular as hell and I can't even start an FF conversation without someone brining up Cloud. **** fan girls >_>

I stand by what I said. If you think Cloud is the main FF hero, then you clearly never played VI. You probably started with VII and went from there.

There is no main hero, each game has it's own continuity, except X-2, and FF7 prequel/sequels, tht being said, Cloud is basically synonamous with FF and as close as a main hero FF will ever have. Advent Children, his OWN anime, appeared in all KH games, appeared in FF party games like Chocobo Racing, and is going to be playable in another Squenix made game for Nintendo with Mario in an upcoming one for the DS, I believe. FFVII was fun, but too overated for its own good

Ps: Edgar FTW!(if you played FFVI, you should know who this is)

Anyways, Marth has fan-treatment like that, in Japan, U.S., Europe, and basically everywhere else since Melee (and some knew who he was before, too. I did, and others I know on this forum, anyway. I'm sure there is more)

 

[DarkKnight077]

I can live with Marth, I know him from the earlier FE games and easily known in Japan. I did some research..and got myself some imports. However Roy somewhat has a cult in his own way. But..Marth is just like awesome, I can only imagine Ken like killing someone if Marth is not in Brawl. I think either one has a shot so long either Roy or Marth or even both get replaced by better FE characters and not some crap.

 

[AthrunZala]

like i said, marth is more well known then roy is. and who ever said that the people in japan dont play FE then you are ******** cause they wouldnt sell the game over there for as long as they have done. they would have stopped after the second game.

i am saying marth will be in and roy will probly be out for ike or someone.

 

[Chief Mendez]

hemightbegiant: If it's so silly for Cloud to be the one "Final Fantasy guy", then are you saying it's fine for Marth to be the "Fire Emblem guy"? It's not like Marth's a particularly cool character or anything. There are better Lords, just like there are better FF heroes (Mr. Clio, anyone? That was sarcasm. But seriously though, Shadow?), and from your post, I'd say you'd rather play as Locke than CLloud (or in transit: Ike than Marth).

Or maybe I'm way off.

 

[Red Exodus]

Marth might already be in Brawl, watch the second trailer at the end with Fox when it's zoomed out. It looks like Marth is wavedashing as well. Check it out, I'll get the link.

http://www.smashbros.com/en/movie/movie02.html

 

[DarkKnight077]

It's not Marth..it's Pit.

 

[Red Exodus]

Unless he's in a black costume I doubt it, and he's holding one sword. Are you watching the right part of the trailer? lol

 

[Chief Mendez]

I think you're just grasping...I don't see what you see, at least.

And a "black outfit with one sword" doesn't necessarily indicate Marth.

 

[Red Exodus]

That's why I said *might*. Besides, it's not that important who it is, it looks like they did a wavedash.

 

[Chief Mendez]

That's why I said *might*. Besides, it's not that important who it is, it looks like they did a wavedash.

I dunno, I don't think Wavedashing's going to be an "official techni-cue". It's an unnatural movement, even for a physics-defying game like Smash. I think they'll leave it in there...just not officially.

Anyway, off-topic. Uh, Marth shucks corn and all that.

EDIT - GenG, if you would, read over the last page. Just don't want you to miss that summary request in the shift to a new page.

 

[GenG]

I dunno, I don't think Wavedashing's going to be an "official techni-cue". It's an unnatural movement, even for a physics-defying game like Smash. I think they'll leave it in there...just not officially.

Anyway, off-topic. Uh, Marth shucks corn and all that.

EDIT - GenG, if you would, read over the last page. Just don't want you to miss that summary request in the shift to a new page.

Oh right, thanks for the advice.

I won't presume to summarize your side of the argument, so...would you care to?

In short:

· Marth and Ike aren't similar at all. They are physically different and their swordplay are like the exact opposite.

· Marth is considered the Fire Emblem "mascot", and is often depicted by official sources (Nintendo for example) and even fanarts as the center of the FE universe. Fire Emblem was the first Simulation RPG (combinining RPG and board play like chess), and has great recognition by the followers of that genre too.

· Being the first Fire Emblem hero and having with a sequel gave him recognition. His young and feminine looks are liked by (almost) everyone. Since then, he got a line of merchandasing (manga, novels, dramas, fanbooks, guidebooks, trading card game and the failed anime I mentioned) and his appareance in Melee was the final detonant of his popularity worldwide.

· Speaking about worldwide, many Smash fans (which didn't know about Fire Emblem in that time) started playing the games on their own, like roms, amazed by the character (many never thought that Nintendo could have manga-ish and stylish characters among its franchises). Nintendo heard the claims of these new american fans and released the second Fire Emblem for GBA in the US. I think Marth should stay not just for the Japan players who played his game and as a symbolic element of Fire Emblem but for the US players who started playing Fire Emblem through Marth and as the first official Fire Emblem element overseas (the anime was released in the US too a year before Melee). And, Marth introduced a new play style in Marth: The manga-esque, stylish and agile Akaneia spacing blade (cheesy title).

· For the reasons stated above, I find very hard to remove Marth without pissing a great part of both the Japanese and Western FE AND Smash fanbases, because many reasons. He couldn't be replaced by another character, there aren't many FE lords like Marth (maybe Leaf, because the rest of sword lords are powerhouses).

· As a side note, I have the strong believing that the castle stage in the trailers are Dolua castle from Fire Emblem 1-3 (just like Yoshi has a stage but he isn't officially confirmed yet). The problem is that many people consider that this stage could be any FE castle because, well, there are many "decisive" castles through all FE history. But trust me in this one, that setup is unique (flag, surroundings, indoors, decisiveness factor). I quote myself for those who want to read again:

If you are into old Fire Emblems, you may recognize that castle as the one for the last two chapters, surrounded of mountains, forests and catapults. In the last chapter, the fight moved into the castle, and in the trailers indeed we see the interiors of the castle, the throne room (were the fight against Medeus reached its climax). Then, the flags of the castle is representing a black standing dragon: That's Medeus. That flag appeared in the anime (take a look here), but this one has the the Sakurai touch. That stage could also be the fabled Akaneia stage which couldn't be finished for Melee, so they likely grabbed what they had made and tuned up the graphics: Somehow it was the best looking stage in the first trailer.
As a whole that stage is one of the most climatic stages in Fire Emblem history, so it makes sense.

And that couldn't be Daein. Daein's flag is totally diferent, and Daein is a cold, snowy kingdom compared to the sunny Akaneia.

· And as a final comment, take a look to the Fire Emblem Team emblem in Melee. That's the last piece of evidence I can provide

It wasn't that short, put I think this sums it all.

 

[Chief Mendez]

· Marth and Ike aren't similar at all. They are physically different and their swordplay are like the exact opposite.

· Marth is considered the Fire Emblem "mascot", and is often depicted by official sources (Nintendo for example) and even fanarts as the center of the FE universe. Fire Emblem was the first Simulation RPG (combinining RPG and board play like chess), and has great recognition by the followers of that genre too.

· Being the first Fire Emblem hero and having with a sequel gave him recognition. His young and feminine looks are liked by (almost) everyone. Since then, he got a line of merchandasing (manga, novels, dramas, fanbooks, guidebooks, trading card game and the failed anime I mentioned) and his appareance in Melee was the final detonant of his popularity worldwide.

· Speaking about worldwide, many Smash fans (which didn't know about Fire Emblem in that time) started playing the games on their own, like roms, amazed by the character (many never thought that Nintendo could have manga-ish and stylish characters among its franchises). Nintendo heard the claims of these new american fans and released the second Fire Emblem for GBA in the US. I think Marth should stay not just for the Japan players who played his game and as a symbolic element of Fire Emblem but for the US players who started playing Fire Emblem through Marth and as the first official Fire Emblem element overseas (the anime was released in the US too a year before Melee). And, Marth introduced a new play style in Marth: The manga-esque, stylish and agile Akaneia spacing blade (cheesy title).

· For the reasons stated above, I find very hard to remove Marth without pissing a great part of both the Japanese and Western FE AND Smash fanbases, because many reasons. He couldn't be replaced by another character, there aren't many FE lords like Marth (maybe Leaf, because the rest of sword lords are powerhouses).

· As a side note, I have the strong believing that the castle stage in the trailers are Dolua castle from Fire Emblem 1-3 (just like Yoshi has a stage but he isn't officially confirmed yet). The problem is that many people consider that this stage could be any FE castle because, well, there are many "decisive" castles through all FE history. But trust me in this one, that setup is unique (flag, surroundings, indoors, decisiveness factor). I quote myself for those who want to read again: See above.

· And as a final comment, take a look to the Fire Emblem Team emblem in Melee. That's the last piece of evidence I can provide

>>>The apparent similarities between Ike and Marth do not do justice to the indeniably vibrant cast of each and every Fire Emblem. If Ike is included (as most, if not all here seem to think), then retaining Marth as (possibly the only other) another Fire Emblem character in Super Smash Bros. Brawl would be an exercise in redundancy. As examined in my second point, many people only see Marth as a Smash Bros. character, and might not come to grips with the differences between Marth and Roy; they'd simply see two blue-haired, medieval, caped swordsmen.

>>>Marth lacks any widespread recognition outside of Japan other than that he hails from Fire Emblem, and that he was a surprise contender in Super Smash Bros. Melee. This is a crucial point, since the majority of Smash Bros. fans are not Japanese.

>>>This majority has been exposed to Fire Emblem for the first time in recent years with the two GBA games and Path or Radiance on the GCN. Now that this majority has identified with other characters from the Fire Emblem series, I believe it's fair to give them priority in this very isolated (i.e. Marth being replaced by Ike) case.

>>>To quote Wiseguy:

My bet is that Sakurai is more interested in making Brawl as original as possible, not making it a retirement home for outdated characters. Retro characters can appear in Smash Bros, but unless their series is still thriving they should make guest appearance for one game - nothing more.

Of course, Fire Emblem is still a strong franchise, but unlike other fertile series like Mario or Metroid, which have very obvious protagonists (i.e. Smash combatants), Marth would be classified as a "retro character" within his game series, since the last Fire Emblem game he was part of came out over a decade ago. Also of note is the idea that Brawl should be as original as possible. That's a whole other argument, however it does apply here, if only vaguely.

(Note that I'm assuming Ike will be in, Roy will be cut, and there will be at most 2 open spaces for other FE fighters.)

 

[LukeFonFabre]

If you're giving power to the majority, then it still goes to Japan as far as FE fanbase is concerned. They have more games in Japan and the series is a lot more popular over there than it is anywhere else. I highly doubt Sakurai would simply ignore the franchises biggest fanbase to please a niche one.

Your argument that the majority of Smash fans aren't Japanese only helps Marth as well, as I'm pretty sure that not every person who has played smash has played an FE game. Marth is the most recognized FE lord because of Smash, and seeing as almost every smasher seems to want him return, that only benefits Marth against Ike. At this point its irrelevant that few people outside Japan have played Marth's game, as the majority of international smash fans want him to stay regardless.

And you make it seem as though international FE fans would be insulted if Marth returned instead of being replaced by a lord from an internationally released FE, but so far, the only ones are you and Wiseguy. There are plenty of other FE fans who are fine with Marth staying despite not playing his game, so it's not like the international FE fanbase wants Marth out of Smash anyway. Seriously, before you and Wiseguy came along it didn't seem like anyone wanted him out because they all appreciated Marth's overall importance to the FE series more than any other character, despite who their favourite FE character is.

 

[GenG]

Chief, just like Wiseguy, you sound like an american FE messiah who wants to cleanse the Japanophile roster of Melee into something US marketable. But in reality even you don't know what the "majority" (that you seem to know very well) really want.

Just try to think as a Japanese, to turn the picture upside-down, and your arguments will go down. There the GBA games are minor and they have an older FE tradition. You can't wipe them out of the scene. Instead, you should think in a way to please both parties, instead pleasing the new one and leaving the traditional one unpleased. That's not how this works.

 

[Wiseguy]

Chief, just like Wiseguy, you sound like an american FE messiah who wants to cleanse the Japanophile roster of Melee into something US marketable. But in reality even you don't know what the "majority" (that you seem to know very well) really want.

Just try to think as a Japanese, to turn the picture upside-down, and your arguments will go down. There the GBA games are minor and they have an older FE tradition. You can't wipe them out of the scene. Instead, you should think in a way to please both parties, instead pleasing the new one and leaving the traditional one unpleased. That's not how this works.

And why does everyone see replacing Marth with Ike as an insult to Japanese gamers? The Japanese love Marth's games. Western gamers love the first GBA Fire Emblem. But EVERYONE loves Path of Radiance. On Sakurai's Japanese poll Ike got four nominations, making him tied with the likes of Diddy and Ridley for second most requested character.

Ike is the perfect rep because he represents both Japanese and Western gamers. Why do we need Marth when he is only important in one region and not the other?

How many times do I have to repeat this simple point?

And don't hate Mendez and myself just because we're right.

 

[GenG]

No, I'm not hating. You aren't FE fans representatives, so cut that.

What I'm trying to say is that replacing Ike with Marth is just an insult for Marth fans. Is a character with a personality and a fanbase, who you don't seem to understand. You are just seeing him from a noob battlefag perspective. It's an insult to Marth fans and traditional FE fans to swap him with Ike, even many smashers. No, Ike isn't "superior" or better, just different.

Again, I'll quote myself:

You don't mind about swapping Marth with newer lords because you simply don't like him, as a character, as a Fire Emblem representative.

There are "many" Fire Emblem fans in Japan. For them he may not be a "poor" representative, and they hold a huge part of the cake. Then, there are FE fans and Smashers over there who like the character from the looks/mood AND/OR battle perspective. I say don't mess with them.

You can't possibly be right. Just repeating the same thing doesn't give it more credit.

 

[Wireframe]

They won't return in brawl however we are getting ike instead.

 

[Wiseguy]

No, I'm not hating. You aren't FE fans representatives, so cut that.

What I'm trying to say is that replacing Ike with Marth is just an insult for Marth fans. Is a character with a personality and a fanbase, who you don't seem to understand. You are just seeing him from a noob battlefag perspective. It's an insult to Marth fans and traditional FE fans to swap him with Ike, even many smashers. No, Ike isn't "superior" or better, just different.

Again, I'll quote myself:

You can't possibly be right. Just repeating the same thing doesn't give it more credit.

Pichu has his own personality and fanbase as well. Does he deserve to return?

That's an exageration, but my point is valid: there are a ton of potential charcaters competing for a select few spots on the Brawl roster. Tough decisions have to be made.

Marth is a poor representative of the Fire Emblem series when you consider the new, global Fire Emblem fanbase. Yes, the majority of Fire Emblem fans are in Japan - if you count the sales of the games only available on the Japanese market. As far the three globally released Fire Emblems are concerned, most of the fans exist outside of the Land of the Rising Sun.

Yeah, I hate Marth. He's an over powered, over used character. But that doesn't make my argument any less valid.

 

[GenG]

I know where are you going, but then again, who decides who is interesting and who's not? I didn't like FE6 too much (Roy) and I definitely don't like FE7 (Eliwood, Lyndis and Hector). They lack the spirit of the lords, their character are pretty generic and they don't hold too much evolution in their games. Then I could say they aren't insteresting. And wether they could bring something to Brawl with their weapons, that doesn't mean anything if they aren't well received. Waluigi may be an interesting player but he plain sucks.

There are more people with Marth, even in the US, that against him. I think is what, ultimately, decides who's in and who's out. I won't see Ephraim, Eirika or any of the lord trio in Brawl for these reasons, because other than the weapons, they don't seem to represent the highest titles of the franchise. These were FE1-3, FE4, FE6 and FE9.

Marth isn't harming the US FE fanbase. He is a popular character right now due to Melee, and a FE icon in Japan (and maybe a cult FE icon in the US too), I'm interested to know why this anti-Marth campaign all of sudden and what's its goal. There aren't many valuable FE characters besides him. Don't start bringing Micaiah and Sothe because they aren't pure lords. Ike is the lord of its "universe", as you can see in GotD he comes again to save the day and do what others can't.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

That's only because the GBA games were poorly received in Japan, but picked back up again with PoR. And sales don't determine a fanbase, otherwise it makes no sense that Ike appears prominently on the poll despite both FE7 and Fe8 having better sales. And you can't just simply discount the earlier FE games because they haven't been released outside Japan like they don't exist. FE4 is still hailed as the the best in the series, and that's what I've heard from non-Japanese gamers who've imported it. Discounting them because you haven't played the game is ridiculous. With your logic, I can say that Ness shouldn't return because Earthbound never went further than America.

And seeing as we wouldn't have FE if it wasn't for Marth (both the Japanese and the non-Japanese), I fail to see he's a poor representative for FE. Face it, hes the face of the series whether you like it or not (GenG has practically proved this so it's not a matter of opinion anymore), and he even has a huge fanbase internationally despite his game being Japan only. To me, it looks like both the Japanese and the west want Marth to return, so it's not like it's a conflict of interest for Sakurai to please either area.

As for Pichu, yes he does have a fanbase, but it's practically eclipsed by the scores of people that'd rather see him gone. This isn't so with Marth, as the people who want him gone are way in the minority compared to those who want him to stay.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

>>>To quote Wiseguy:

How many times do I have to repeat this simple point?

And don't hate Mendez and myself just because we're right.

This confirms it. Wiseguy and Mendez are the new Basement Dweller and Zombie.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Marth will return, being the original Lord, and also getting the title twice. He's also now a staple of Smash Bros. Roy will be cut, since he's a clone, in favor of a more modern FE character, like Hector or The Black Knight.

 

[DarkKnight077]

It's was Link. He was wearing a dark green thing. =/ And the other person was Mario.

 

[Wiseguy]

I know where are you going, but then again, who decides who is interesting and who's not? I didn't like FE6 too much (Roy) and I definitely don't like FE7 (Eliwood, Lyndis and Hector). They lack the spirit of the lords, their character are pretty generic and they don't hold too much evolution in their games. Then I could say they aren't insteresting. And wether they could bring something to Brawl with their weapons, that doesn't mean anything if they aren't well received. Waluigi may be an interesting player but he plain sucks.

There are more people with Marth, even in the US, that against him. I think is what, ultimately, decides who's in and who's out. I won't see Ephraim, Eirika or any of the lord trio in Brawl for these reasons, because other than the weapons, they don't seem to represent the highest titles of the franchise. These were FE1-3, FE4, FE6 and FE9.

Marth isn't harming the US FE fanbase. He is a popular character right now due to Melee, and a FE icon in Japan (and maybe a cult FE icon in the US too), I'm interested to know why this anti-Marth campaign all of sudden and what's its goal. There aren't many valuable FE characters besides him. Don't start bringing Micaiah and Sothe because they aren't pure lords. Ike is the lord of its "universe", as you can see in GotD he comes again to save the day and do what others can't.

Why not include Micaiah or Sothe? They would each offer great contrasts to Ike in that they would have drastically different movesets and appearances. Also, their inclusion would surely sell tons of copies of Goddess of Dawn.

I suspect that a pattern will emerge: every instalment of Smash will include the most prominent lord in the Fire Emblem series to date (in Melee it was Marth, in Brawl it will be Ike) as well as a charcater from a soon-to-be-released Fire Emblem (where Roy was once included, he can now be replaced by Micaiah).

That's assuming that they have time to create another unique moveset. My money's still on the Black Knight being included as a clone due to time constraints.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Hooray for suspected patterns...but fo' shizzle, I think that's a tad unlikely, at least in this case, depending on when the Treehouse finishes GoD.

Although I'd certainly prefer playing as characters I have (or at least can have, short of learning Japanese) some level of emotional investment in *coughnoMarthcough*.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Although I'd certainly prefer playing as characters I have (or at least can have, short of learning Japanese) some level of emotional investment in *coughnoMarthcough*.

It's not like Marth is the only character in Smash.

 

[GenG]

There is people who has "some level of emotional investment" with Marth. Hooray for thinking in them.

 

[GreenMamba]

Although I'd certainly prefer playing as characters I have (or at least can have, short of learning Japanese) some level of emotional investment in *coughnoMarthcough*.

The world doesn't revolve around you.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Hey, this is awesome; as long as I post an inflammatory comment about Marth, I get three responses by the next day. Neat!

It's not like Marth is the only character in Smash.

But he's one of only two characters in Melee from FE, and if you guys get your way, one of as few as two in Brawl. I'd much rather pit Ike against Ena, Prince Zephiel, Linus, Hector, Giffca, Gawain, or heck, why not Devdan (don't answer that)?

There is people who has "some level of emotional investment" with Marth. Hooray for thinking in them.

I'd imagine thinking about what one thinks about while inside of someone may not be too comfortable; for both parties.

Joking aside, I can assure you the people who do are either Japanese, or internet nerds who've played fansubbed ROMs of the early titles.

The world doesn't revolve around you.

Or does it!?

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

Personal opinions do not an argument make, Johnknight1. Over the last few pages people've given solid reasoning as to why Melee's FE fighters won't make the list...all I see from you is "I wan them in because they should be".

And all I've seen from you guys is "I'm american and I'm more important."

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

From what I've observed, most of the people who desperately want Marth to return don't seem to be Fire Emblem fans. They're Smash players who main as Marth and are afraid of facing their fellow Smashers without a high tier advantage.

So you hate high tier characters? Did you ever think that the players may actually like the character? Did you ever think that they might just be better with them then other characters. If I wanted to I could play Marth but guess what. I chose Roy. Not because of his moveset or his placement on the tier, which is about in the middle, but because I actually like him and FE6.

Granted, there are some people who clearly have an excellent appreciation for the FE series and argue that Marth should be included due to his status as the original Fire Emblem lord, but they are in the minority. Most Marth advocates don't care about the Fire Emblem series, they like him because of his ultra-cheap sword attacks.

Ultra cheap. Yeah, sure. Are you saying Link, Young Link, adn Roy are ultra cheap because they have sword attacks as well. If you don't want to honor the series then I seriously suggest you quit debating right now. I feel that anyone who doesn't honor the series and the characters that made it shouldn't even have a voice in this particular area.

Given that there is a high probability that as few as two Fire Emblem characters could make it into Brawl, we need a new Fire Emblem representative that is popular among Fire Emblem fans around the world, not just in Japan. Ike is that character.

I wouldn't call it a high probability. There could easily be more than two. Also Ike doesn't represent all of the Fire Emblem fans.

Simon was a main player in no fewer than eight games, and has appeared in many others.

Once again, we Yanks haven't played Marth's games, and we most likely never will. To the majority, Marth is more of a Melee character than a Fire Emblem one. We have other viable options now, and there's too much working against both characters to warrant their retainment.

Wow. You really think Americans are more important than the Japanese to a Japanese country don't ya. So what if you haven't played them. That doesn't make your vote any more important.

Quoted for truth.

Don't bet on any of the Japanese FEs showing up on the VC. FE games take a long time to localize, the Treehouse has better things to do, and more importantly...those games suck. English speakers started with the FE equivalent of Metroid Fusion. Going back and trying to play FE1 (or the original Metroid) after first playing FE7 is a very painful experience. And it's not like we're missing anything, anyways.

Yes obviously they suck. Especially considering 4 and 5 are generally considered two of the best Fire Emblem games. Guess what. They are Japanese.

Good question.

Since I think everyone here agrees Ike should and will get in, the only question is what other characters deserve to appear along side him. Considering that as few as two FE characters total could make the cut, this question is extremely important.

Frankly, I think having two charcaters so similar represent Fire Emblem sends the wrong message. Fire Emblem is about much more than blue-haired male sword-weilders with capes. Including Marth as well as Ike would be redundant.

Oh my god. I have the same color hair and have the same basic weapon type as this other dude. Obviously it would be stupid for both of us to be in the same game. Oh and we both wear capes! There is another point against it.

Since you apparently didn't listen from any of the last times I posted just because they wield a sword doesn't mean its the same type of sword. Even then it doesn't mean they use it the same. I'm just going to have to assume you've never actually seen at least Marth fight, seeing as you're so persistent on this issue.

There are a ton of more unique charcaters to put in in over Marth. Mikiah or Sothe from Goddess of Dawn would be far more unique. Or how about Hector? And if they get pressed for time and have to include a clone, Ike's arch nemesis the Black Knight would bring a far more unique presense to Brawl.

I'm fairly certain the majority opinion is Lords only which completely eliminates Sothe. Also, great usage of words. A unique clone, huh?

And why does everyone see replacing Marth with Ike as an insult to Japanese gamers? The Japanese love Marth's games. Western gamers love the first GBA Fire Emblem. But EVERYONE loves Path of Radiance. On Sakurai's Japanese poll Ike got four nominations, making him tied with the likes of Diddy and Ridley for second most requested character.

You do realize that Path of Radiance is one of the lower selling FE games, right? Its barely sold 155,000 copies in Japan. Thats less than FE7 even, heck its less than FE8.

Ike is the perfect rep because he represents both Japanese and Western gamers. Why do we need Marth when he is only important in one region and not the other?

Once again. Ike isn't a rep for both Japanese and Western gamers. I also love the fact that just because the games weren't over here that automatically makes them irrelevant to the entire series. That is absolutely horrible logic.

Except that Mewtwo and Ness are from different games, look nothing alike and have unique personalities.

I stand by my conviction that Ike is basically a vastly more awesome version of Marth. Examples:

1) Ike is slow and powerful, rather than fast and powerful so there will be little need to nerf him.Marth wasn't strong in FE. He got an immense boost in strength in the transition to SSBM. Also what does strength have to do with anything? Maybe everyone who plays C. Falcon should switch to Ganondorf because he is slow and powerful as well!

2) Ike has a sword ranged attack.

So does Roy.

4) Ike's game was universally popular.

No it wasn't. It is one of the lowest selling Fire Emblems out in Japan. I'll post the sales charts at the bottom.

3) Ike does not look like a total pansy.

Wow, you're taking it down to looks. You must have no better reasons.

Why do we need Marth in the game, when his replacement is so vastly superior?

Other than the fact that Ike is stronger, I see no superiority.

There are two reason's why Marth shouldn't return:

1) He is a poor representative of the series to the majority of Fire Embel fans.

No. He is a good representative to the majority of Fire Emblem fans. Guess why. Fire Emblem fans are predominately in Japan!

2) The majority of his fans (who will likely never play a Fire Emblem game) only like him because of stupidly powerful moveset. Since if Marth does return he will be nerfed (like kirby and Ness were in the transition from SSB 64 to Melee) he will basically be a less powerful, more lame looking version of Marth.

Once again you assume that people only liked Marth because he was strong. If they only cared about tiers then why doesn't everyone play Fox. Guess what. Beyond what it seems you are capable of believing. Maybe people actually do like Marth! I know, crazy thought.

If Marth was the original FE lord for fans worldwide, I would agree. But as far as the majority of FE fans are concerned, the first game in the series was Fire Emblem for the GBA.

Fire Emblem didn't even release in the rest of the world until thirteen years AFTER FE1 came out!

Since most people who buy FE games aren't from Japan, having a Japanese only character as its rep is unfair. Having Ike as the new FE rep is a good compromise.

Where in the hell are you getting this from? Japan has ten games and has had Fire Emblem for all seventeen years of its existence. We have three games and have had Fire Emblem for only four years.

That's only because the GBA games were poorly received in Japan, but picked back up again with PoR. And sales don't determine a fanbase, otherwise it makes no sense that Ike appears prominently on the poll despite both FE7 and Fe8 having better sales. And you can't just simply discount the earlier FE games because they haven't been released outside Japan like they don't exist. FE4 is still hailed as the the best in the series, and that's what I've heard from non-Japanese gamers who've imported it. Discounting them because you haven't played the game is ridiculous. With your logic, I can say that Ness shouldn't return because Earthbound never went further than America.

Path of Radiance wasn't that well received either. And as I pointed out before. FE6 sold relatively well.

And seeing as we wouldn't have FE if it wasn't for Marth (both the Japanese and the non-Japanese), I fail to see he's a poor representative for FE. Face it, hes the face of the series whether you like it or not (GenG has practically proved this so it's not a matter of opinion anymore), and he even has a huge fanbase internationally despite his game being Japan only. To me, it looks like both the Japanese and the west want Marth to return, so it's not like it's a conflict of interest for Sakurai to please either area.

I completely agree on this part.

As for Pichu, yes he does have a fanbase, but it's practically eclipsed by the scores of people that'd rather see him gone. This isn't so with Marth, as the people who want him gone are way in the minority compared to those who want him to stay.

Why not include Micaiah or Sothe? They would each offer great contrasts to Ike in that they would have drastically different movesets and appearances. Also, their inclusion would surely sell tons of copies of Goddess of Dawn.

1. Sothe isn't a Lord.
2. Micaiah is a possible candidate but she isn't talked about much.

I suspect that a pattern will emerge: every instalment of Smash will include the most prominent lord in the Fire Emblem series to date (in Melee it was Marth, in Brawl it will be Ike) as well as a charcater from a soon-to-be-released Fire Emblem (where Roy was once included, he can now be replaced by Micaiah).

Obviously you can find patterns with just one game!

But he's one of only two characters in Melee from FE, and if you guys get your way, one of as few as two in Brawl. I'd much rather pit Ike against Ena, Prince Zephiel, Linus, Hector, Giffca, Gawain, or heck, why not Devdan (don't answer that)?

Because not a single one of those were Lords. By taking the group of FE characters down to only Lords you get a pool of about 13-14 characters. A much smaller number.

Joking aside, I can assure you the people who do are either Japanese, or internet nerds who've played fansubbed ROMs of the early titles.

Oh my god! Now I'm a nerd! You don't ever think about others do you. Did you ever stop to think that people who aren't Japanese, like myself, play the older games because we like the series! It certainly doesn't seem that way.

Also for anyone interested. Here are the sales numbers of all of the recorded FE game sales, FE1 and 2 aren't on here.

http://vgchartz.com/japtotals.php?name=Fire+Emblem&maker=Nintendo&console=

Would you look at that. Monshou no Nazo is number 1 on the sales chart! With Fuuin no Tsurugi being 3rd! Look at tiny little Path of Radiance all the down there at 7th place. Wow, didn't know that Path of Radiance did so well in Japan!


If anyone wants me to, I'll get other sales charts for them.

 

[GenG]

Joking aside, I can assure you the people who do are either Japanese, or internet nerds who've played fansubbed ROMs of the early titles.

And? Being a nerd makes you less important? Nintendo added a bunch of nerd jokes into Super Paper Mario, references to Jojo's Bizarre, The mystery of Amigara fault, computer jokes (c:/run whatever ctrl alt del) and references to online boards. The nerds are important now.

Pit, the Ice Climbers or G&W weren't for retronerds too? The retronerds are the only ones who actually cares for these characters. Sakurai is famous for being a vintage fanboy too (since he played many of these games back then).

And you are talking about Japanese af they were out of the scene, while they may (MAY, don't push the trigger of that gun yet) have more to say about Fire Emblem, having an older tradition, a poll there and that.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Personal opinions do not an argument make, Johnknight1. Over the last few pages people've given solid reasoning as to why Melee's FE fighters won't make the list...all I see from you is "I wan them in because they should be".

How ironic, seeing every argument in this thread (including yours, and don't give me this "I'm not bias, it's facts!" ****) goes that way

And? Being a nerd makes you less important? Nintendo added a bunch of nerd jokes into Super Paper Mario, references to Jojo's Bizarre, The mystery of Amigara fault, computer jokes (c:/run whatever ctrl alt del) and references to online boards. The nerds are important now.

Sorry to stray off topic, but when do they make Jojo references in Paper Mario?

 

[GenG]

Sorry to stray off topic, but when do they make Jojo references in Paper Mario?

 

[Chief Mendez]

Hey, I love nerds. I am a nerd. Nothing wrong with that. But I'd hardly call Paper Mario a reliable source of who's important as far as audiences go. And yeah, there are retro characters in Smash, but is Marth then to be considered a retro character?

And you know what, about the Japanese...as Suichimo so helpfully pointed out; the Japanese don't really buy that much FE anymore. So if his link is to be believed, then maybe they aren't the best source of influence when it comes to Fire Emblem. Don't bite my head off guys; I know they sold well in the past, but as far as Fire Emblem goes in recent years, I think Westerners should hold more sway (although US sales could prove me wrong). FE is a long running series, still alive today, and as such, the characters should come from the latest installments. Saying otherwise (i.e. Marth ftw bc is classic) is like saying we should get another Ocarina of Time character because they are remembered moreseo than most other characters.

EDIT - That is haxx.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Okay, I'm confused now. Why were several PoR characters in Sakurai's poll when the game wasn't that great selling, and no Fe6 characters appeared at all? Do the Japanese like the game or not?

Something doesn't add up here

 

[GenG]

Okay, I'm confused now. Why were several PoR characters in Sakurai's poll when the game wasn't that great selling, and no Fe6 characters appeared at all? Do the Japanese like the game or not?

Something doesn't add up here

I heard that the GBAs FEs aren't that loved by the hardcore fans because these were step backs in the franchise, removing many improvements made by Genealogy of Holy War and Thracia 776 (like the Skills) and returning to a simplistic storyline as a replica of the original Fire Emblem. Of course, the not hardcore fans or new players may have liked it, and even Roy's appareance in Melee may have helped in this purpose. But I don't know if it's real, just things I've heard in many forums.

Funny though, PoR is loved by the most ones who bought it (even if there were few). The plot is much stronger than the GBA titles, the characters better and inserting the lost features in FE6.

I don't have the US sales, but I think all the games sold slighty better there. PoR even sold like 100k more.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

That's what I heard too, though I wonder why it sold so poorly? Either way it looks like Sakurai enjoyed PoR, seeing as he took a lot of interest in Ike, which is probably the clincher.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Nice, but honestly, I was expecting ORA ORA ORA!

I heard that the GBAs FEs aren't that loved by the hardcore fans because these were step backs in the franchise, removing many improvements made by Genealogy of Holy War and Thracia 776 (like the Skills) and returning to a simplistic storyline as a replica of the original Fire Emblem. Of course, the not hardcore fans or new players may have liked it, and even Roy's appareance in Melee may have helped in this purpose. But I don't know if it's real, just things I've heard in many forums.

Great. Now we have to take the mixed Japanese opinions with the mixed West opinions.

Spoiler

ZA WARUDO!

 

[Wiseguy]

Welcome back to the debate SuichimoTheDragoon. Please don't embed your arguments into a quote. It makes it harder to quote you.

"And all I've seen from you guys is "I'm american and I'm more important."

I'll assume you weren't refering to me, since I'm a Canadian (See? it so so below my avatar and everything.). That said, I don't think any one group of gamers is more important than the others. We need charcaters that all Fire Emblem fans can appreciate.

"So you hate high tier characters? Did you ever think that the players may actually like the character? Did you ever think that they might just be better with them then other characters. If I wanted to I could play Marth but guess what. I chose Roy. Not because of his moveset or his placement on the tier, which is about in the middle, but because I actually like him and FE6."

High tier charcaters are a plague. They suck much of the fun out of tournaments and friendly grudge matches because, given the choice, players will choose to play as a charcater that has a significant advantage over the others.

Good for you for choosing Roy. Many lesser players would have gone to the darkside and played as Marth instead. I repect anyone who plays as their favorite character, regardless of their place on the tier list.

I have nothing against people choosing Marth because because they like the charcater. But you and I both know that if all the charcaters were equal, he wouldn't be nearly as popular as he is. Marth as popular as he is because of his appearance, or because of his role as Fire Emblem representative. They choose him because they lack the skill necessary to play without the aid of his unfairly powerful moveset.

"Ultra cheap. Yeah, sure. Are you saying Link, Young Link, adn Roy are ultra cheap because they have sword attacks as well. If you don't want to honor the series then I seriously suggest you quit debating right now. I feel that anyone who doesn't honor the series and the characters that made it shouldn't even have a voice in this particular area."

Absolutely not. Link, Young Link and Roy are perfectly fair. I have nothing against sword fighters at all. I have everything against Sheik (ESPECIALLY Sheik), Fox, Falco and, yes, Marth. These charcaters are the exceptions in an otherwise exceptionally balanced fighting game. They are an unsightly belemish on the masterpiece that is Super Smash Bros. It's not a cooincidence that these charcacters are also some of the most used. For brawl, they will either be axed, given entirely new movesets, or drastically nerfed (like Ness and Kirby were for Melee).

Please don't insinuate that I don't want to honour the series. My hatred of these charcaters' unbalanced movesets is precisely because I think that they dishonur the series with their utter cheepness. I love tons of games - but Melee is by far the very best video game ever.

"I wouldn't call it a high probability. There could easily be more than two. Also Ike doesn't represent all of the Fire Emblem fans."

Hope your right about more than 3 charcaters, but I doubt it. And Ike is certainly the Lord most able to represent the series, more so than Marth who is loved on in Japan and in Melee among spammers who lack the skill to play as anyone else.

"Oh my god. I have the same color hair and have the same basic weapon type as this other dude. Obviously it would be stupid for both of us to be in the same game. Oh and we both wear capes! There is another point against it.

"Since you apparently didn't listen from any of the last times I posted just because they wield a sword doesn't mean its the same type of sword. Even then it doesn't mean they use it the same. I'm just going to have to assume you've never actually seen at least Marth fight, seeing as you're so persistent on this issue."

I listened. I also disagreed. I still do.

Compared to more original FE charcaters like Mikiaiah, Marth is just a pale shadow of Ike.

"I'm fairly certain the majority opinion is Lords only which completely eliminates Sothe. Also, great usage of words. A unique clone, huh?"

I share your sentiments about Sothe, but I would still prefer his orginality over Marth.

And read my post again. I said unique "presence", not moveset. Think of Luigi, Ganondorf and Young Link. They all brought cool and unique personalities to Brawl, in spite of being clones.

If they have to include a clone, rather than a completely new character, they could do worse than the Black Knight. As clones go, a huge dude in menacing Black amour with really slow attacks and high attack power as well as a teleoporting move, would be pretty awesome (in my personal opinion).

"You do realize that Path of Radiance is one of the lower selling FE games, right? Its barely sold 155,000 copies in Japan. Thats less than FE7 even, heck its less than FE8."

I do realize that it was released on the Gamecube, the most underapreciated Nintendo console since the Virtual Boy, yes. Frankly, I'm pretty impressed that it came as close to the GBA games as it did, considering the Bazillions of GBAs out there.

And I noticed that the sales numbers you provided are limited to Japan. I'm thinking that would show more accurately how many Fire Emblem fans are around TODAY. Not back in the days of the SNES.

"Once again. Ike isn't a rep for both Japanese and Western gamers. I also love the fact that just because the games weren't over here that automatically makes them irrelevant to the entire series. That is absolutely horrible logic."

I would argue, just the same, against GBA Fire Emblem charcaters; they are popular in the west, but the Japanese consider them inferior to the console games. And Since Sakurai's poll demonstrates that the Japanese love PoR charcaters more than any other FE game (four characters in total) I'm saying that the Japanese wouldn't be as devastated as you think to see Ike replace Marth. Many would probably welcome it.

"Marth wasn't strong in FE. He got an immense boost in strength in the transition to SSBM. Also what does strength have to do with anything? Maybe everyone who plays C. Falcon should switch to Ganondorf because he is slow and powerful as well!"

The only reason that marth is popular outside of Japan is because he IS the one of te most powerful charcaters around. When Ike comes around as a more powerful charcater, Marth will be just another gut with a sword to anyon who hasn't played his games. Thus, he should not be included.

"So does Roy."

You misunderstand me. Ike can shoot actual engery projectiles out of his Ragnell sword in PoR. Roy has no such move. But even if he did, its irrevlivant to the point I'm making.

"No it wasn't. It is one of the lowest selling Fire Emblems out in Japan. I'll post the sales charts at the bottom."

Say what you will about his game, but Ike was tied as the second most requested character on the poll. He is universally popular.

"Wow, you're taking it down to looks. You must have no better reasons."

My reasons were all true. My pointing out the obvious fact that a Marth looks like a sissy does not change that.

"Other than the fact that Ike is stronger, I see no superiority."

Fair enough. Maybe we see things differently.

"No. He is a good representative to the majority of Fire Emblem fans. Guess why. Fire Emblem fans are predominately in Japan!"

Let's see if I can break this down for you. If I took all the people in Japan who will buy Goddess of Dawn in my left hand hand and all the people in the United States, Canada, Europe, Austrailia and the rest of the world who will buy Goddess of Dawn in my right hand, which hand will have more Fire Emblem fans?

"Once again you assume that people only liked Marth because he was strong. If they only cared about tiers then why doesn't everyone play Fox. Guess what. Beyond what it seems you are capable of believing. Maybe people actually do like Marth! I know, crazy thought."

Fox and Falco actually take a little skill and practice before they can dominate all other people not playing as a high tier charcater. Anyone with ten fingers and half a brain can pick up Sheik or Marth. These same people would play as Mewtwo and Jigglypuff if they had Marth's stupidly cheap moveset.

"Fire Emblem didn't even release in the rest of the world until thirteen years AFTER FE1 came out!"

Yeah, but since most non-Japanese gamers will never play them, they are irrelivant to non-Japanese Fire Emblem fans.

"Where in the hell are you getting this from? Japan has ten games and has had Fire Emblem for all seventeen years of its existence. We have three games and have had Fire Emblem for only four years."

I only count games that all gamers had an opportunity to buy. All the rest are irrelevant to this discussion. So far, all the Fire Emblem games released worldwide have sold more outside Japan than from within.

"Path of Radiance wasn't that well received either. And as I pointed out before. FE6 sold relatively well."

Sakurai's poll tells a different story.

". Sothe isn't a Lord.
2. Micaiah is a possible candidate but she isn't talked about much."

Maybe we should start talking about Miciaiah more. As one of the main lords in Goddess of Dawn as well as a charcater guaranteed to have a unique moveset, she is a far better choice than Marth.

"Obviously you can find patterns with just one game!"

I'm just speculating, but I think I'm onto something.

"Would you look at that. Monshou no Nazo is number 1 on the sales chart! With Fuuin no Tsurugi being 3rd! Look at tiny little Path of Radiance all the down there at 7th place. Wow, didn't know that Path of Radiance did so well in Japan!"

Show me the global sales of the three internationally released Fire Emblems and we'll talk.