Marth/Roy, Should They Make The Cut?

[GenG]

Marth was original in Melee. There wasn't any swordmen of its kind before: Has good spacing abilites, is weak trading blows and in close quarters hasn't enough knockback to push the enemy back, having a sweetspot makes him having two different knockbacks with each move! That opens a lot of comboing posibilities. It's more than waving a sword, it's the core play, and Marth is a genius character.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Irrelevant. Zelda is, if not close to, Nintendo's biggest franchise, yet there are only three Zelda characters in comparison to the two other big franchises like Mario and Pokemon which have a lot more representatives.

And his importance is clear as the protagonist of the very first Fire Emblem.

You have no evidence to support your claim. Who says there are more Fire Emblem fans outside of Japan than in it? In fact, I would argue the opposite as there have only been three titles released outside of Japan in comparison to the Japan-only six that were released prior to those three.

By your logic, no one would ever play anyone but Fox.

Considered extremely similar by whom? Yourself, maybe?

Who would've thought that people would actually question Marth's return?

Zelda doesn't sell nearly enough copies or release games often enough to be Nintendo's biggest franchise. Mario and Pokemon both top it.

"Who says there are more Fire Emblem fans outside of Japan than in it?" Sales numbers. Someone posted the total sales for each FE in Japan, and more recently, they've been selling like...well, not like they should.

Who's cheaper than whom is debatable, but I think we all know that Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik are overbalanced fighters.

They're similar in looks, that's the point. Don't go deeper into this, nitpicking at every detail, because I think they look enough alike that non-FE nuts would wonder why there are two swordsmen with blue hair and cloaks from the same franchise in the same game. It'd be a shame to squander a character slot on two fighters who are so similar when they could instead have two fighters who are very different, which they can now that the English-speaking world has had exposure.

And fer christsakes Suichimo, that was a freakin' summary! I posted that for the new guy who had no idea what was going on, don't be dumb and respond to it as a serious rebuttal. Someone here has expounded in favor of those points over the last few pages, and you (should) know it.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Sales numbers don't prove that an area has a bigger fanbase. Besides, chances are a lot of the older generation of FE fans didn't move onto the newer generation due to all the changes made, but they're probably downloading the ones available on the VC. Fact is the older FE games still have fans, probably more so than all the international FE's do alltogether. Fact is, we don't know where the bigger fanbase is located so it's useless arguing about it. Though really your argument is that all the international FE fans want Marth gone so that an internationl Lord can replace him, which is simply not true.

And chances that if Marth and Ike are in the game they'll play differently enough for people not to care about their similarities (which boil down to simply weapon and hair colour).

All you'd really need to add is Ike or Lyn anyways. Marth and Roy are important to the series, despite what you want to believe.

That's kind of pushing though, if FE was fortunate enough to get 4 reps I'd rather that only 2 of them would be swordsman and then added characters of different classes. 3 is the number I'm expecting though.

 

[GenG]

Marth and Ike aren't similar at all. The outfits are totally different, Ike has a bandana, and his cape is worn out. But he has the lord outfit and the new outfit in Goddess of the Dawn, I doubt they wouldn't put Marth just because the newer lord has blue hair (which was a common trait in the series until FE6), because they don't share anything else.

 

[Wiseguy]

Irrelevant. Zelda is, if not close to, Nintendo's biggest franchise, yet there are only three Zelda characters in comparison to the two other big franchises like Mario and Pokemon which have a lot more representatives.

Well, in Melee there were three original characters (Link, Zelda and Sheik) but there were also two charcaters with movesets cloned from other characters (Young Link and Ganondorf) which makes five characters total. In comparision, the Mario series had five (not including Yoshi and DK) and Pokemon had four.

And his importance is clear as the protagonist of the very first Fire Emblem.

That is the argument for his return. My point was that, if he does return, it will be because he is important to the Fire Emblem series not because of his role in Melee.

You have no evidence to support your claim. Who says there are more Fire Emblem fans outside of Japan than in it? In fact, I would argue the opposite as there have only been three titles released outside of Japan in comparison to the Japan-only six that were released prior to those three.

I've been over this a couple times, but what the heck.

Read my point carefully: "there are currently more Fire Emblem fans outside of Japan than inside". I'm not talking about how many there were ten or more years ago in the days of the NES and SNES (when FE game were exclusive to Japan). I'm talking about how many people actually buy Fire Emblem games today.

Its a fact that the last three internationally released Fire Emblems (the only ones to be available outside of Japan)have sold more copies in all the non-Japanese counties combined (ie: North America and South America, Europe, Autralia, Asia, etc.) than inside Japan. Goddess of Dawn hasn't been released outside of Japan yet, but when it does, you can bet that most of the people who buy it will not be Japanese gamers. So, in that regard, I am correct.

Since the majority of Fire Emblem fans do not currently hail from Japan, in my view it would be unfair to have the series represented by Japanese-only charcaters like Marth and Roy. Likewise, it is unfair to have representatives from the GBA games since they were not well recieved inside Japan.

Instead, characters should be taken exclusively from PoR, which is popular everywhere: including Japan. On Sakurai's poll, the vast majority of FE nominations were from this game and Ike was ranked as the second most requested charcater out of all the charcaters. I also think characters from GoD have a fair chance, since it would enable Nintendo to sell as many copies as possible when it is released internationally.

By your logic, no one would ever play anyone but Fox.

No, by my logic the majority of people would play as high tier charcaters like Fox, Falco, Sheik and Marth in tournaments. Which, in my experience, they do.

Considered extremely similar by whom? Yourself, maybe?

Let's see, two male Fire Emblem lords with blue hair, capes and big one-handed swords. They are also relatively the same height, and build. Even their facial structure and expression are almost identical. You're right, its just me.

True, Ike has things that set him apart. His GoD appearance has him wearing a sleavless shirt, he attacks with horizontal slashes (as opposed to Marth who attacks vertically) and he has a ranged protjectile attack. But still, I don't think having two charcaters so similar represent Fire Emblem series. It simply doesn't do justice to the diversity of charcaters in Fire Emblem games. It would be preferable to have Ike replace Marth and include another, more unique charcater or one that could be Ike's clone.

Who would've thought that people would actually question Marth's return?

Well, personally I want as many new charcaters in Brawl as possible. That means cutting as many old charcaters as possible. You can check out my thread: "Prepare to be Astounded and Amazed: Wiseguy's Brawl Charcater Predictions" if you wan to hear my reasoning. Feel free to post your arguments and criticisms, I enjoy a good debate.

In response to all the Marth/Roy/Sheik are "cheap" comments:

How can you claim these characters are cheap but there is no mention of Fox being cheap?

But that is besides the point, I don't really see any character as "cheap" People just use that as an excuse when they are getting their *** handed to them because they are poor losers.

Uhh.. I'm not sure anyonw has ever accused Roy of being cheap. In my previous posts, I've called out Fox, Falco, Marth and (esspecially) Sheik as charcaters that give the players an unfair advantage due to their extrmely overpowered movesets.

If you want to use these charcaters, then that's your choice. Just don't be surprised if Brawl is more balanced and you have to face opponents on equal footing.

1. All you'd really need to add is Ike or Lyn anyways. Marth and Roy are important to the series, despite what you want to believe.

2. Weren't you the one saying that Marth had no significance to the series before?

3. Oh my god! The game might as well not exist then, according to you. It doesn't matter if they've never played it. Just because they don't have something doesn't mean it has no importance. Imagine if the first Fire Emblem game never came out. We might not even have the series!

Want to know an interesting little fact? Just because you've never heard of a law doesn't mean you don't have to follow it. If you break that law you can still be charged with it.

4. Here we go again with the "Marth is cheap and brainless" comments. You must really lose to Marth a lot to have this large of a vendetta against him. Pirate is correct in saying that everyone would play Fox by your logic.

5. I've only seen you and Chief consider them like that. In no way, other than appearance, are they similar. They have different sword fighting styles! It doesn't matter if they have the same weapon! I've also witnessed people mix up Eliwood and Roy and Hector and Marth. By your logic if Hector got in he would fight just like Marth!

Eliwood and Roy I can understand seeing as how they are genetically linked. But ignorance can't excuse mixing up Hector/Marth or Ike/Marth. They just have far too different features.

Also I love how you say to take out Marth for a more original FE character. Yeah. You can really get more original than the original FE character.

1) Yeah, Marth and Roy do have some inportance to the series. However, given FE's new international fanbase they are less important than Ike: who will have starred the two orignal, internationally released Fire Emblem games by year's end. Ike is the most important FE lord by far.

2) I was and I am. I was just explaining the other side of the argument for newcomers to the thread. I was also explaining that Marth's worthiness is contingent on his importance to the FE series, not the Smash Bros. series.

3) Since the majority of FE fans will never play the Jpaanese-only games (some of us don't understand Japanese) then yeah, they are irrelivant in comparison Path of Radiance and Goddess of Dawn.

4) This has nothing to do with me. I actually don't mind fighting Marth (my vendetta is against Sheik). My point is that the majority of Marth's fans outside of Japan are not Fire Emblem fans, but people who like his Marth's extremely powerful attacks. If Marth wasn't more powerful than the majority of charcaters in Melee, most of his "fanbase" would evaporate.

5) When I said original, I meant more "unique". For example, you must admitt that Miciaiah would have a far more original moveset than Marth.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Its a fact that the last three internationally released Fire Emblems (the only ones to be available outside of Japan)have sold more copies in all the non-Japanese counties combined (ie: North America and South America, Europe, Autralia, Asia, etc.) than inside Japan. Goddess of Dawn hasn't been released outside of Japan yet, but when it does, you can bet that most of the people who buy it will not be Japanese gamers. So, in that regard, I am correct.

The recent games have had better sales outside Japan, that is true. That does not however mean that there are more fans outside Japan, as we don't know how many of those people went on to become fans of the series. And again, you're neglecting fans of the older games that didn't move on to the new ones. Besides, Sakurai is mainly listening to Japanese fans anyway (if he's listening to anywhere else at all).

And like I said this point is irrelevant as it assumes that all these fans want Marth out, but there are plenty of them that want him to stay, so it doesn't matter which area has the bigger fanbase.

Let's see, two male Fire Emblem lords with blue hair, capes and big one-handed swords. They are also relatively the same height, and build. Even their facial structure and expression are almost identical. You're right, its just me.

I thought it was decided that Ike's likeliest look was from GoD. Ike's become a man now! Poor Marth looks like a kid in comparison.

The only similarities are hair colour and that they are swordsman (cape's are irrelevant considering as practically every FE Lord has one). They are easy enough to separate concerning their movesets, which is really what most people care about (there are tonnes of DS supporters who are against clones, and it's practically a palette swap of Samus).

Yeah, Marth and Roy do have some inportance to the series. However, given FE's new international fanbase they are less important than Ike: who will have starred the two orignal, internationally released Fire Emblem games by year's end. Ike is the most important FE lord by far

Ike is more important than Roy due to being playable in two games. However, he'll never become more important than Marth who was the star of the very first game. Protagonist of 1st game in series > being released internationally (he wasn't even the first Lord to be released internationally, that's technically Lyn)

I was and I am. I was just explaining the other side of the argument for newcomers to the thread. I was also explaining that Marth's worthiness is contingent on his importance to the FE series, not the Smash Bros. series.

Agreed somewhat, but Melee helped Marth (and FE) become internationally known, so melee helps him regardless.

Since the majority of FE fans will never play the Jpaanese-only games (some of us don't understand Japanese) then yeah, they are irrelivant in comparison Path of Radiance and Goddess of Dawn.

This is once again assuming that the majority of fans aren't Japanese, though quite a few fans have actually played the imports it seems. Also I'm pretty sure there are patches to translate it in English (I've seen FE6 scenes in English, not sure about the others)

This has nothing to do with me. I actually don't mind fighting Marth (my vendetta is against Sheik). My point is that the majority of Marth's fans outside of Japan are not Fire Emblem fans, but people who like his Marth's extremely powerful attacks. If Marth wasn't more powerful than the majority of charcaters in Melee, most of his "fanbase" would evaporate.

Debatable. A lot of people do like Marth due to his power in competition, but less Shallow players appreciate his overall importance to the FE series. The fact is he has a huge fanbase regardless of how he got it, which is probably all that matters to Sakurai.

5) When I said original, I meant more "unique". For example, you must admitt that Miciaiah would have a far more original moveset than Marth.

She'd also have a far more unique moveset than Ike. What's your point.

 

[Johnknight1]

Here is something I have noticed
1. Ike and Marth are the most important characters to the Fire Emblem series. Needless to say, both of them should be in Brawl. They are the stars (Lords) of 2 FE games, unlike any of FE character, and are far more important than any other FE character.

But IMO there is going to be another FE slot left, and who gets that? I am really wondering about this and how it will turn out, with characters like Sigurd, Hector, Roy, Lyn, and the Black Knight competing for it. I really wonder who will get that third FE slot, with so many FE characters to choose from.

Needless to say people who think the top tier characters (Marth, Fox, Shiek, Falco) are all cheaps. Hell so many pros use low, low-mid, and mid tier characters, like IC, DK, Link, Mario, Luigi (=WD), Jigglypuff, and Peach. Basically every character can be cheap if you look at it that way (not naming names or saying anyone in particular), so that point is irrelevant.

Also Wiseguy, Ike was second on one of the strangest polls I have ever seen or heard of. Seriously, Link's Uncle (who is in tLOZ: ALTTP for like 5 seconds) was on it, and other stupid characters as well. Plus the most desired character for SSBB, Sonic wasn't even on it. Most characters on it were likely or had a chance, but some stupid characters were on it as well.

That proves Ike has great chances and popularity in Japan, but not how big he is in Europe or North America to no exteme. That increases ike's likelyhood, but a lot of those desired characters on that poll seemed like to me to be jokes, or just stupid character desires for Brawl (not saying Ike, saying anyone who wants Link's Uncle=retarted).

 

[BadassCyborg3000]

The logic of being in two games is flawed.
Roy was in FE6 and FE7. (If you count the cameo.)
Marth was in FE1 and FE3.
Leaf was in FE4 and FE5.
Fin was in FE4 and FE5 also.
Eliwood was in FE6 and FE7.
Hector was in FE6 and FE7.
Bartre was in FE6 and FE7.
Karel was in FE6 and FE7.
Jigan was in FE1 and FE3.
Marcus was in FE6 and FE7.
Sothe was in FE9 and will be in FE10.
Lilina was in FE6 and FE7. (If you count the cameo.)

 

[LukeFonFabre]

It's been established several times that Lords are really the only characters expected to get in. Out of all of those characters in that list, the only characters that has been playable twice as a Lord is Marth (and you forgot Ike). The rest are either non playable in one version or not important (the only real exception is Sothe as he's promoted to a key character in GoD, but wasn't important in PoR). Marth and Ike are the only characters who have been Lords in two games, so the logic isn't flawed at all.

 

[Wiseguy]

The recent games have had better sales outside Japan, that is true. That does not however mean that there are more fans outside Japan, as we don't know how many of those people went on to become fans of the series. And again, you're neglecting fans of the older games that didn't move on to the new ones. Besides, Sakurai is mainly listening to Japanese fans anyway (if he's listening to anywhere else at all).

And like I said this point is irrelevant as it assumes that all these fans want Marth out, but there are plenty of them that want him to stay, so it doesn't matter which area has the bigger fanbase.

What is a Fire Emblem fan other than someone who buys Fire Emblem games?

As for older fans, if they no longer buy FE games I'd say they aren't very devoted to the series.

True, Sakurai would never offend Japaese gamers - but he also wants to balance the tastes of Japanese and western gamers (he said he had reservations about including Japanese-only charcaters). Also, since Ike is extrmely popular in Japan, I don't see the issue with Ike replacing Marth as the new FE rep.

True, not all western gamers are against Marth appearing - but I suspect quite a few of them would rather have another charcater from a FE that they'll actually play, assuming that only two or three FE characters make it into Brawl.

I thought it was decided that Ike's likeliest look was from GoD. Ike's become a man now! Poor Marth looks like a kid in comparison.

The only similarities are hair colour and that they are swordsman (cape's are irrelevant considering as practically every FE Lord has one). They are easy enough to separate concerning their movesets, which is really what most people care about (there are tonnes of DS supporters who are against clones, and it's practically a palette swap of Samus).

Personally, I would prefer it if the classic mercanary Ike with the red cape got in, but Ike in any form could work I suppose. We'll just have to wait and see.

As for Dark Samus, if they think she will get in as anything but a clone they're dreaming. True, DS an awesome villian but with Ridley almost a certainty, and Metroids lack of a fanbase in Japan, I'd say she isn't important or unique enough to be given a unique moveset.

However, the ease with which she could be made a floatier, slower, more powerful Samus clone combined makes her a strong possibility to be included.

Ike is more important than Roy due to being playable in two games. However, he'll never become more important than Marth who was the star of the very first game. Protagonist of 1st game in series > being released internationally (he wasn't even the first Lord to be released internationally, that's technically Lyn)

I see your point, but from my perspective he only appeared in the first Japanese FE game - the first game for most fans is Fire Emblem GBA. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, Marth is just a charcater in Melee, nothing more.

This is once again assuming that the majority of fans aren't Japanese, though quite a few fans have actually played the imports it seems. Also I'm pretty sure there are patches to translate it in English (I've seen FE6 scenes in English, not sure about the others)

The vast majority of gamers don't import, only the hardest of the hardcore gamers bother with that. As for these patches, they aren't the work of Nintendo so we don't know if Sakurai is even aware of their existance.

Debatable. A lot of people do like Marth due to his power in competition, but less Shallow players appreciate his overall importance to the FE series. The fact is he has a huge fanbase regardless of how he got it, which is probably all that matters to Sakurai.

I have to admit, you've got point there. Without knowing Sakurai's opinion on the matter, we'll have to wait and see.

She'd also have a far more unique moveset than Ike. What's your point.

I guess my point is that since Ike is almost a certainty, it's just a question of who should also be included. Personally, I would rather see someone other than a sword fighter representing the series for once.

Here is something I have noticed
1. Ike and Marth are the most important characters to the Fire Emblem series. Needless to say, both of them should be in Brawl. They are the stars (Lords) of 2 FE games, unlike any of FE character, and are far more important than any other FE character.

But IMO there is going to be another FE slot left, and who gets that? I am really wondering about this and how it will turn out, with characters like Sigurd, Hector, Roy, Lyn, and the Black Knight competing for it. I really wonder who will get that third FE slot, with so many FE characters to choose from.

Needless to say people who think the top tier characters (Marth, Fox, Shiek, Falco) are all cheaps. Hell so many pros use low, low-mid, and mid tier characters, like IC, DK, Link, Mario, Luigi (=WD), Jigglypuff, and Peach. Basically every character can be cheap if you look at it that way (not naming names or saying anyone in particular), so that point is irrelevant.

Also Wiseguy, Ike was second on one of the strangest polls I have ever seen or heard of. Seriously, Link's Uncle (who is in tLOZ: ALTTP for like 5 seconds) was on it, and other stupid characters as well. Plus the most desired character for SSBB, Sonic wasn't even on it. Most characters on it were likely or had a chance, but some stupid characters were on it as well.

That proves Ike has great chances and popularity in Japan, but not how big he is in Europe or North America to no exteme. That increases ike's likelyhood, but a lot of those desired characters on that poll seemed like to me to be jokes, or just stupid character desires for Brawl (not saying Ike, saying anyone who wants Link's Uncle=retarted).

Although, Marth has starred in two games its worth noting that the second is just a SNES remake of the original NEs game (with some additional charcaters, if I recall correctly). Ike is the only lord to date that has starred in two completely original game, and more importantly, both of them are international releases.

Although there will always be people who say that Jigglypuff or Link are too cheap, the four top tier charcaters are an exception in that thay actually are. They actually give the player a considerable advantage over other charcaters. If you're going to tell me that Sheik and Marth don't have a huge advantage over charcaters like Mario and Link, then your nuts.

As for the poll, there are certainly quite a few joke characters since anyone could nominate any charcater of their choosing. Still, its the only indication we have of what characters Sakurai is considering including, so I'm not going to dismiss it just yet.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

What is a Fire Emblem fan other than someone who buys Fire Emblem games?

As for older fans, if they no longer buy FE games I'd say they aren't very devoted to the series..

Well people who brought the game might not of necessarily enjoyed it. FE was hugely hyped by melee, so obviously many people who brought FE7 wanted to see what the series was like. Some people who bought may not of liked it and never became fans of the series like you or me (or most other people in this thread i assume). Just saying that sales don't necessarily reflect the fanbase in general.

As for devotion, you could argue that they are so devoted to what the games were like that they didn't move on due to all the changes they made in the GBA games. The VC sales could possibly reflect that, but I don't think there's a way of knowing that.

As for Dark Samus, if they think she will get in as anything but a clone they're dreaming. True, DS an awesome villian but with Ridley almost a certainty, and Metroids lack of a fanbase in Japan, I'd say she isn't important or unique enough to be given a unique moveset.

Can't say I'm a strong supporter for her, but my point was that similarities in appearance aren't a problem for many people, as long as the characters have different playstyles.

And I personally like the beefier Ike. I like my bishounen but Ike's new look has such a badass image about him.

I see your point, but from my perspective he only appeared in the first Japanese FE game - the first game for most fans is Fire Emblem GBA. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, Marth is just a charcater in Melee, nothing more.

Granted, but most people would've known about Marth before they got into the FE series, and most likely knew he was the first Lord. He's still largely associated with FE even if his game hasn't reached our countries.

The vast majority of gamers don't import, only the hardest of the hardcore gamers bother with that. As for these patches, they aren't the work of Nintendo so we don't know if Sakurai is even aware of their existance.

True most gamers don't import, but FE is quite a niche and hardcore market. I've seen quite a few fans of the series import and emulate games. I know patches aren't Nintendo work, but I'm was responding to your 'not all of us don't speak Japanese', and merely stating there are translations for the games.

I guess my point is that since Ike is almost a certainty, it's just a question of who should also be included. Personally, I would rather see someone other than a sword fighter representing the series for once.

Agreed, which is why I hope for at least 3 reps. I'm happy with 2 swordsman as long as they offer interesting and different swordsman, but then I want a more unique character. That's why Micaiah is a favourite of mine.

And yes, The poll is not entire rubbish despite what joke characters appear on it. Just take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Well people who brought the game might not of necessarily enjoyed it. FE was hugely hyped by melee, so obviously many people who brought FE7 wanted to see what the series was like. Some people who bought may not of liked it and never became fans of the series like you or me (or most other people in this thread i assume). Just saying that sales don't necessarily reflect the fanbase in general.

As for devotion, you could argue that they are so devoted to what the games were like that they didn't move on due to all the changes they made in the GBA games. The VC sales could possibly reflect that, but I don't think there's a way of knowing that.

Granted, but most people would've known about Marth before they got into the FE series, and most likely knew he was the first Lord. He's still largely associated with FE even if his game hasn't reached our countries.

Agreed, which is why I hope for at least 3 reps. I'm happy with 2 swordsman as long as they offer interesting and different swordsman, but then I want a more unique character. That's why Micaiah is a favourite of mine.

1. But as far as I know, the only way to accurately judge a given game's popularity is by sales numbers. There's no way to gather and analyze every FE player's personal opinion, so that's what Sakurai has to go on when determining where any given franchise is more popular.

2. "So devoted they stopped buying when the games changed" is a ridiculous claim. That's like saying someone would stop buying Mario games after the shift to 3D because they weren't as hard. Also, you're right that there's no VC sales data yet. Lots of people see that as an admission that the VC isn't doing as well as Nintendo'd hoped. If they stopped buying them, then they either weren't much of a fan to begin with, or life got in the way.

3. Personally, I only found out about Marth's inaugural position when I started attending this thread. Did Marth's Melee trophies say anything about it? If not, I don't think it's fair to say that most Melee players (who aren't especially enthralled with these mystery swordsmen) would go and find out independently.

4. So you want two swordsmen and a mage? No fighter? No sniper? No general? No halberdier?

 

[BadassCyborg3000]

We need a Marcus wielding a Silver Lance, a Marth with Falchion, and Hector with Armads.

 

[Chief Mendez]

We need a Marcus wielding a Silver Lance, a Marth with Falchion, and Hector with Armads.

Maybe not those exactly...but not two of the same discipline.

 

[BadassCyborg3000]

Marcus is a good representative of both Japan and U.S. He screwed over new players in Japan in FE6 and screwed over new players in the U.S. Since Marth is used so much, he will stay with Falchion even though I don't want him to. And to add the final weapon in the triangle, most peoples favorite: Hector, wielding his Legendary Armads. Who should replace them?

 

[LukeFonFabre]

1. But as far as I know, the only way to accurately judge a given game's popularity is by sales numbers. There's no way to gather and analyze every FE player's personal opinion, so that's what Sakurai has to go on when determining where any given franchise is more popular.

What makes you think that Sakurai is going to look at sales numbers, especially those outside of Japan? He's pretty much shown that Japan is his main concern regarding this game, and as far as we're concerned he's simply keeping us in mind before he goes and add too many Japan only characters. However, the fact he hasn't made an international poll pretty much shows he cares more for Japans input than any of ours.

2. "So devoted they stopped buying when the games changed" is a ridiculous claim. That's like saying someone would stop buying Mario games after the shift to 3D because they weren't as hard. Also, you're right that there's no VC sales data yet. Lots of people see that as an admission that the VC isn't doing as well as Nintendo'd hoped. If they stopped buying them, then they either weren't much of a fan to begin with, or life got in the way.

How is it ridiculous? There was a huge gap between games, which is why FE6 is considered the revival of the series. However, the gameplay and story had changed a lot from the classics they grew up with. Granted Devoted isn't the right word, but just because not as many got into the new games doesn't mean they aren't fans of the series. The same goes for FF fans, there are those who refuse to play the newer FF games because of how mainstream it's become, but still love the older games with a passion. They are still fans regardless of the fact that they haven't moved on. As for VC, we don't know why there aren't sales released of them yet, so saying that it isn't doing as well is mere speculation.

3. Personally, I only found out about Marth's inaugural position when I started attending this thread. Did Marth's Melee trophies say anything about it? If not, I don't think it's fair to say that most Melee players (who aren't especially enthralled with these mystery swordsmen) would go and find out independently.

Considering how most people I've seen on this forum are at least aware of Marth's position, they either were interested enough in the series to find out about themselves or simply listened to others. And considering how most melee players actually Marth and Roy, and don't get were why think they aren't enthralled with them. Personally I was aware of Marth's role in two games, including the first FE, long before I came to this site, and I'm sure that there are others who knew as well.

4. So you want two swordsmen and a mage? No fighter? No sniper? No general? No halberdier?

It's half wanting, half accepting what we have to choose from. If it's main characters only as I thought we all accepted, then we can't really expect generals or snipers (Lyn's the closest, but mainly falls into the swordsman class anyway). Hector is the closest to a fighter class, but he doesn't strike me as very likely nor do I particually want him anyway. Ephraim is a good choice for a halberdier, and I'd like it if he was added, but I'd prefer Micaiah before him. And two of my favourite classes are swordsman classes, the swordmasters and Hero's, which in a way Marth and Ike reflect in a way. If there was a bit more choice and we had more slots to fill then I probably wouldn't choose 2 swordsman (though if there is enough space it probably wouldn't hurt), but with the likeliest of 3 slots and most of the likeliest of them being swordusers (there are really only a handful of Lords that don't use swords as their main weapon) it strikes me that 2 swordsman is probably likely. As long as they offer diverse styles though, I don't really see a problem with that.

 

[Wiseguy]

What makes you think that Sakurai is going to look at sales numbers, especially those outside of Japan? He's pretty much shown that Japan is his main concern regarding this game, and as far as we're concerned he's simply keeping us in mind before he goes and add too many Japan only characters. However, the fact he hasn't made an international poll pretty much shows he cares more for Japans input than any of ours.

Thus far, Sakurai seems intereststed in balancing the tastes of Eastern and Western gamers. Of the charcaters announced so far for Brawl, all have starred in games released on both sides of the atlantic. If anything, he has shown greater favor towards western gamers with the inclusion of Zero-suit Samus (Metroid is still pretty unpopular in Japan).

I honestly don't know why there is no international poll, but its absence does not prove that
Sakurai and Nintendo don't factor in the tatses of gamers outside of Japan. After all, most of their revenue comes from non-Japanese countries in regards to both Fire Emblem and Samsh Bros series.

How is it ridiculous? There was a huge gap between games, which is why FE6 is considered the revival of the series. However, the gameplay and story had changed a lot from the classics they grew up with. Granted Devoted isn't the right word, but just because not as many got into the new games doesn't mean they aren't fans of the series. The same goes for FF fans, there are those who refuse to play the newer FF games because of how mainstream it's become, but still love the older games with a passion. They are still fans regardless of the fact that they haven't moved on. As for VC, we don't know why there aren't sales released of them yet, so saying that it isn't doing as well is mere speculation.

I don't really have anything to add (the mind of the retro gamer is a mystery to me) except that if VC sales aren't doing so hot, why are those dang Wii points cards always sold out at my local EB games?!

It's half wanting, half accepting what we have to choose from. If it's main characters only as I thought we all accepted, then we can't really expect generals or snipers (Lyn's the closest, but mainly falls into the swordsman class anyway). Hector is the closest to a fighter class, but he doesn't strike me as very likely nor do I particually want him anyway. Ephraim is a good choice for a halberdier, and I'd like it if he was added, but I'd prefer Micaiah before him. And two of my favourite classes are swordsman classes, the swordmasters and Hero's, which in a way Marth and Ike reflect in a way. If there was a bit more choice and we had more slots to fill then I probably wouldn't choose 2 swordsman (though if there is enough space it probably wouldn't hurt), but with the likeliest of 3 slots and most of the likeliest of them being swordusers (there are really only a handful of Lords that don't use swords as their main weapon) it strikes me that 2 swordsman is probably likely. As long as they offer diverse styles though, I don't really see a problem with that.

Tough question LukeFonFabre: let's say that the Brawl roster is smaller than we are anticipating and only two unique Fire Emblem characters are getting in. Which two would you like to see?

Judging from your previous arguments, I'm assuming Ike will be one of them. But, when it comes down to it, would you rather see Marth of Miciaiah occupy the second spot?

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Thus far, Sakurai seems intereststed in balancing the tastes of Eastern and Western gamers. Of the charcaters announced so far for Brawl, all have starred in games released on both sides of the atlantic. If anything, he has shown greater favor towards western gamers with the inclusion of Zero-suit Samus (Metroid is still pretty unpopular in Japan).

I honestly don't know why there is no international poll, but its absence does not prove that
Sakurai and Nintendo don't factor in the tatses of gamers outside of Japan. After all, most of their revenue comes from non-Japanese countries in regards to both Fire Emblem and Samsh Bros series.

True, they aren't ignoring us, but there focus does seem to be what's hot in Japan at the moment. You're right about ZS, though the sexy Samus image is used in Japanese comercials, so I think it appeals to their market as well somewhat. However, Sakurai did say he may yet include Japan only characters still, so it could go either way. He seems to have relied on the Japanese for input though, and will probably pick characters that also appeal to the west, or at least think the west will enjoy.

I don't really have anything to add (the mind of the retro gamer is a mystery to me) except that if VC sales aren't doing so hot, why are those dang Wii points cards always sold out at my local EB games?!

Never thought I'd see the day when a piece of card would get sold out. Though it's probably people overcompensating due to the difficulty of getting a hold of them.

Tough question LukeFonFabre: let's say that the Brawl roster is smaller than we are anticipating and only two unique Fire Emblem characters are getting in. Which two would you like to see?

Judging from your previous arguments, I'm assuming Ike will be one of them. But, when it comes down to it, would you rather see Marth of Miciaiah occupy the second spot?

Ike gets in, and only 1 slot left huh. Then I would prefer Micaiah due to the playstyle she would offer, though as a rep for the FE series she's inferior to Marth. That said I don't have a problem with it just being Marth and Ike, unless they are clones but I'd like to think if Sakurai limited the FE roster to 2 he'd try to make them as diverse as possible.

 

[Kazuya]

There is a lot of good discussion in this thread and a lot of research has been done on the FE series itself, which i admire a lot. But now... Personaly, I think we're beginning to waste our time now....

Sakurai "Due to the popularity of the FE characters they may stay"

That is ALL we NEED to know. He has basically said one/two of the FE characters are gonna stay. (Most likely one). Which is it gonna be? Marth or Roy?

Marth, obviously. Roy was only in Melee as a last minute thing to promote his new game.

That's the end of the discussion right there.

Roy's out, Marth's staying.

2 more FE characters will probably be included. Who? I don't know.

That's my two cents.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

When the hell did he say that?

I've honestly never seen that comment before, and I assume that it would've been brought up before now. Though the 'may' part of makes it seem a bit tentative to me.

 

[Wiseguy]

There is a lot of good discussion in this thread and a lot of research has been done on the FE series itself, which i admire a lot. But now... Personaly, I think we're beginning to waste our time now....

Sakurai "Due to the popularity of the FE characters they may stay"

That is ALL we NEED to know. He has basically said one/two of the FE characters are gonna stay. (Most likely one). Which is it gonna be? Marth or Roy?

Marth, obviously. Roy was only in Melee as a last minute thing to promote his new game.

That's the end of the discussion right there.

Roy's out, Marth's staying.

2 more FE characters will probably be included. Who? I don't know.

That's my two cents.

I think you are confused, friend. I believe the statement to which you are refering was about obscure Japanese-only charcaters. He initially said that he won't include any more, then he muses that given the popularity of Marth and Roy, he still may.

 

[Creo]

Yes I believe they should make the cut... If anything, I'd want Roy,(like him better)but both is a better choice.

 

[BadassCyborg3000]

Micaiah would handle like Zelda, wouldn't she? And that would be bad, wouldn't it? In a game like SSB, long range fighters don't tend to do very well. Samus can take care of herself in close range, but not as well as most other characters. Samus is more a of a long-range character with her Missiles and Charge Shot being her main weapons. If Micaiah was put in the game, I would think she would be the character standing on a platform by herself shooting Purge and Bolting all over the place. Snipers wouldn't work since they need space to work well. Pit is ok in Brawl because his Bow can be split in two into dual blades. If it is going to be three characters, it should be Marth, Sothe (Promotion and is a different style of fighter), and possibly Sigurd or Marcus. Sigurd is popular among FE fans and Marcus is infamous among FE players.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Zelda's problem is that she was meant to be used alongside Sheik, Sheik racking up the damage with combo's while Zelda finished them off. The problem was that Sheik was more efficient than Zelda in many ways, which left her obsolete to her other half. Thats kind of why I think Sheik should be cut, so that they can balance out Zelda and make her better. Micaiah wouldn't have this problem though, seeing as she doesn't have an alter ego to transform into, so she gets a full moveset instead of half.

Meh, Marcus is famous for the right things though. He's the Jeigen archetype that newbs to the game think 'wow, this character rules!!' and then can't complete the game because he turns out to be sub par and took all the needed exp from their other units. What's odd though is that he's the only Jeigen character (besides Jeigen himself) who becomes a crappy unit, all the rest of the Jeigens are actually pretty decent as long as you don't abuse them early on

And no to Sigurd. Marth and Ike get in 1st no question, but another blue haired swordsman from Japan is pushing it. Badass and popular as he is, I think he kind of missed his chance in SSBM.

 

[BadassCyborg3000]

Marcus was horrible in FE6. his younger self had a higher mastery and was bad compared to other Paladins except Isadora. Marcus is decent with his high accuracy and good strength. He only had a HP/Speed/Def problem. The problem was those stats were below average. Another thing that proves Marcus isn't totally horrible is that there was a Marcus/Eliwood run on Eliwood hard mode that was done by someone. the person even had Marcus kill the dragon at the end. Marcus could fight in a Paladin style and use between three weapons or he could focus on the Lance.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

There are still much better units to choose from, and Kent, Sain and Lowen pretty much fill your paladin needs for the game. And if you are going to use a Jeigen archetype in brawl, you might as well use the man himself. And I can't really see a practical way of cycling through the weapon triangle in one moveset, it'd be better just to keep it to one weapon. And personally Ephraim seems a good choice for that.

 

[Johnknight1]

I think you are confused, friend. I believe the statement to which you are refering was about obscure Japanese-onlycharcaters. He initially said that he won't include any more, then he muses that given the popularity of Marth and Roy, he still may.

Like Wiseguy said, Sakurai meant that as in the fact that Marth and Roy were originally Japan-only characters in SSBM (he was gonna screw us over= ), but they were so popular in the testings of the game they decieded to have them in the game internationally (hence: they don't speak English!)

Sakurai also meant that there will be Fire Emblem characters in that short statement. Which ones=we have no guarentees, only strong likelyhoods and good chances. He never said any character from the Fire Emblem series will be in SSBB specifically, but Sakurai did announce that Marth and Roy "may return".

That doesn't mean they won't or will return, so saying that because of this statement either is a 100% guarenteed return because of this statement is irrelavant. So all we know is from this statement is that there will be no Japan, NA, or Europe only characters, and there will be Fire Emblem characters.

 

[BadassCyborg3000]

There are still much better units to choose from, and Kent, Sain and Lowen pretty much fill your paladin needs for the game. And if you are going to use a Jeigen archetype in brawl, you might as well use the man himself. And I can't really see a practical way of cycling through the weapon triangle in one moveset, it'd be better just to keep it to one weapon. And personally Ephraim seems a good choice for that.

But do you really think that most FE players remember their meeting with Sain and Kent or when they were on chapter 27 with only Marcus and an unpromoted Eliwood, Hector, and Lyn? To FE fans, The Sacred Stones was the black sheep of the FE lineage in that it was the easiest and shortest. It didn't have the length like FE4 which, while only 12 chapters, spanned two generations of characters and usually required capturing 3-4 castles per chapter. I would prefer having Young Marcus wielding a Silver Lance alongside with Ike and Marth.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Marcus really isn't that memorable a character, he's infamous for being a crappy character that screws over your party if you're stupid enough to use him. He's just reiteration of Jeigen and I honestly don't think he's all that popular and certainly not that significant. And why is the fact that sacred stones different (considering how all the GBA games took a different route from the console games) a point against Ephraim? It's not exactly like FE7 was overwhelmingly difficult. Ephraim is not only the only Lord to specialize in Lances, but he's the only one to have used them on foot. Regardless of how easy his game was, he's still a better choice than Marcus as a Lancer.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No mather how horrible he may be, I always had atleast some wierd kinda respect towards Marcus in FE6 and FE7. But he really wouldn't make it, since I doubt Eliwood will make it and Roy will likely be cutted.

Jeigan however IS possible since Marth will likely stay. I can totally see it, a character just like Roy- wonderful for newbies but hated by the tournament players but even to a bigger extend. He'd have good knockback, nice range, nice speed, good weight but awful lag, sucky recovery, medicore damage % on attacks and almost no combo's.

I've once explained how a mounted character could work, but I would rather have Jeigan unmounted. Why? To not make him all too flashy or unique cause he'd be a newbie character afterall. But I can dream on about Jeigan...

I've recently replayed FE6 and I fell in love with it. Awesome game! It really is. Cliché perhaps, but atleast nice to play. And I think Roy should gain priority above Hector, Eliwood and Lyn since his story was the most "important" from the two games (FE6 and FE7). Also, he appeared in SSBM, which should give him atleast SOME sort of priority over the rest of the GBA lords. He could easly be Luigified from Marth, since in FE6 the Sword of Seals is a two handed sword.

Also just a thought, maybe Marth will be Luigified aswell since in FE3 he had a shield too. The shield would balance his speed a little, but I don't know for sure if that would be for the best. I'd rather have a totally unique Ike and a nerfed-but-still-the-same Marth... Poor Roy.

 

[shadenexus18]

Question: As small as Marth's sword is and how he uses it, would you consider Marth a fencer?

 

[Diddy Kong]

No, since his sword he uses in Melee the Falchion is a typical slash sword. A true fencer lord (atleast so far as I know) is only Eirika from the Sacred Stones. And Marth's sword is anything but small btw! XD

 

[shadenexus18]

It's not small, it's thin. That's what I was getting at.

And thanks for answering my question so swiftly.

 

[Chief Mendez]

No, since his sword he uses in Melee the Falchion is a typical slash sword. A true fencer lord (atleast so far as I know) is only Eirika from the Sacred Stones. And Marth's sword is anything but small btw! XD

And Eliwood. Can't forget Eliwood.

Unless you count his upgrade.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Chances are Lords will get their best weapon (a la Falchion>Marth and SoS>Roy), so Eliwood would probably have Durandal. Though how he'd use that sword while unmounted is beyond me.

Didn't Roy also fence a little before he acquired the Sword of Seals though?

 

[GenG]

Marth, Roy and Eliwood start as fencers but swap into slashers with their best weapon.
Eirika is the only fencer that stays as that after promotion.