Marth/Roy, Should They Make The Cut?

[Wiseguy]

And you seem to be the only person that actually wants a huge overhaul of characters. most people actually expect 4 at most to be replaced, and people that expect more (which admittedly I'm one of), are really accepting that it's a possibility. You're the first person I've seen that wants a huge change in characters, though I'm interested in who you actually deem replaceable.

Good question. I judge a character's replacability on a number of factors.

The original twelve charcaters should stay, in my opinion, as they have been with the Smash Bros. from the beginning. This includes Mario, Link, Fox, Samus, Pikachu, DK, Kirby, Captain Falcon, Luigi, Yoshi, and Jiggs.

Everyone else needs to earn their spot in the greatest game series of all time, based on the games they have appeared in in the years between Melee and Brawl. Peach, for example, has stared in her own games so she deserve to return, perhaps with updated moveset. Bowser and Falco have appeared repeatedly in supporting roles for various games so they too deserve to return. Someone like Young Link needs to be updated in the Wind Waker art syle and likewise Zelda and Ganondorf should be given a Twilight Princess makeover.

Characters like Dr. Mario, Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch are fun and likeable to be sure, but they were lucky to be put in Melee and do not deserve to return in Brawl. Instead, other obscure-but-cool charcaters, like Pit, should take their place.

Finally, I think that supporting characters like Pichu, Mewtwo, Sheik, Roy and (wait for it...) Marth should be replaced by newer and more deserving characters. Mewtwo and Pichu should be replaced by Pokemon from the more recent Pokemon games (like Diamond and Pearl), Sheik should be replaced by Midna while Marth and Roy should be replaced by Ike and one other charcater from PoR or GoD. For me, the Black Knight is that character.

Edit: Sorry, SuichimoTheDragoon, that was a lame joke. I was referring to your actual name given at birth. I'm aware that SuichimoTheDragoon is only your alias.

 

[El HP]

@El HP

I bet you didn't know Roy got screwed over in Melee, did ya. Just because a character was bad in Melee doesn't mean they'll leave. By that merit you'd be getting rid of characters like Bowser, Kirby, and others.

I don't mind a character is bad the problem with roy is that he is a completely inferior version of marth that makes him a useless character there's no point in choosing him at least bowser, kirby and others got their own moves.

Also there is a larger difference between Ike and Marth than just power. Their sword styles are so vastly different, along with the type of swords they wield. Ike wields what seems to be a traditional long sword, meant for slashing and not piercing. Marth wields a rapier, meant for piercing not slashing. Those two weapons should not be used the same way. That was one of my complaints in Melee between Marth and Roy. Marth should not have been using a rapier the same way as a great sword. It just isn't built for that kind of thing.

Marth wields a rapier at the beginning of the game but the falchion is a different kind of sword.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

@El HP

I don't know why they did that to Roy. Not only should he have atleast been a bit stronger than Marth, but where was his ranged attack? The only advantages Roy has over Marth is the DED, Counter, and Flare Blade. And we all know how much of a practical in-battle attack Flare Blade is.

You have me there, but my point still stands. You wouldn't use a long sword, thats what I'm now taking the Falchion to be, the same as a great sword, the Sword of Seals. You wouldn't waste that much maneuverability, if you were smart.


@Wiseguy

Why didn't I see that. XD

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I'm assuming the reason Roy didn't have his ranged attack is because he's a clone of Marth, and as far as I know, Marth never had a ranged attack. It could also be that Roy's game was too earlier in development to actually pull any moves from, so the ranged attack never came to Sakurai's mind. If Roy does return, I think they should give him even more of the fire element, and make his sword a bit bigger (it looked much bigger in FE6 than it did in melee).

Unfortunately for Roy, his new moveset is largely going to be more power based (as I assume it was always meant to have been, but it doesn't seem to have worked) with ranged abilities in there, which is pretty much what most people expect of Ike. It's one of the reasons I don't see Roy returning, as I think even Sakurai will struggle to make separate movesets for all the swordsman lords (Lyn is only a very slight exception, as she still could be very similar to Marth unless Sakurai moves towards a more katana like moveset), and Marth and Ike have first dibs.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

I'm assuming the reason Roy didn't have his ranged attack is because he's a clone of Marth, and as far as I know, Marth never had a ranged attack. It could also be that Roy's game was too earlier in development to actually pull any moves from, so the ranged attack never came to Sakurai's mind. If Roy does return, I think they should give him even more of the fire element, and make his sword a bit bigger (it looked much bigger in FE6 than it did in melee).

Unfortunately for Roy, his new moveset is largely going to be more power based (as I assume it was always meant to have been, but it doesn't seem to have worked) with ranged abilities in there, which is pretty much what most people expect of Ike. It's one of the reasons I don't see Roy returning, as I think even Sakurai will struggle to make separate movesets for all the swordsman lords (Lyn is only a very slight exception, as she still could be very similar to Marth unless Sakurai moves towards a more katana like moveset), and Marth and Ike have first dibs.

FE6 came out only a few months after Melee did in Japan. They would've just been testing the game to fix glitches and that kind of stuff at that time.

I don't see how it would be too hard to keep Roy and Ike away from each other moveset-wise. Roy uses a great sword where Ike uses a long sword. Roy doesn't have the maneuverability that Ike has with the long sword. Then there is also the fact that Roy was formally taught, Greil taught Ike a completely unique sword fighting style. The only move I could really see them having be the same is the ranged attack, but even in that they could easily have differences. From what I know, I haven't taken the time to get that far in PoR, Ike just sends a wave of energy forward. Roy hurls a ball of fire, this is implied, that when it hits the enemy explodes in a pillar of flame. I could see Ike's being his B attack and Roy's being his over B attack, to control the velocity somewhat.

Also if Sakurai gets Lyn to act anything like Marth, attack-wise, that will be completely horrible and show absolutely no effort. Lyn is so vastly different from the other sword wielders of FE that you pretty much have to put in no effort to make her like one of them. She doesn't even have access to the Rapier in the beginning.

 

[L5LM_Gtlink]

I don't want either gone. Marth is my second best character and even though I don't play with roy i'd still like to see his return

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Style wise though, they'd both end up being more power based, and in a game like smash there is only so much diversity that can be given between sword wielding characters. They'll be different to a point, but I can't see them being incredibly different in the end. The way you described Roy's ranged attack though is similar to Ness's PK fire, which would be interesting nonetheless. However, I just feel that since there is more to FE than swordsman, it'd probably be better to leave it at 2 and look for other kinds of characters. Ironically though, giving Roy a ranged attack would've given a huge advantage over Marth,

My point about Lyn though is that her style would be fast and lithe, which is already what Marth does. Granted from what we see in FE 7 she has enough to draw other moves from, and she could be given a katana style to make her more unique. However, she'd be similar to Marth in that she'd still be a fast paced swordsman.

Also, you can't forget that other franchises also have sword using characters, so really limiting the FE franchise to just 2 swordsman will probably be the safest thing.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

I would actually put Roy in between Marth and Ike in terms of strength, Ike has a slight advantage. Give Marth a speed boost to compensate for the nerf in strength and boost Roy's power and speed a little bit, he is relatively speedy in FnT. Make Ike stronger than both but a bit slower than Roy and you would have three vastly different characters when their fighting styles and swords are accounted for.

I know that there should be other characters as well but one or two more FE characters isn't going to hurt anything. But take a look at Pokemon. Its been around for half the time, has fewer games in the actual story line, but it had twice the characters in Melee. Kirby has been around for about the same amount of time as FE has but Kirby is also limited on actual characters to use.

Just because a character is similar in ability doesn't mean its going to fight the exact same way. Bowser and DK are enough proof of this. Those two are so far from each other but yet they are both power characters. Lyn would be nothing like Marth and you also have to factor in that she doesn't have a single attack that is like that of another character in Fire Emblem.

Yeah, other franchises do have sword wielding characters but the only ones that are currently present in Melee is LoZ and FE. If Golden Sun makes it into Brawl, like I want, we still won't have to worry as the Adepts would be so hard to make into clones because they have this giant repertoire of Psynergy that they can take from. In fact, in my Isaac moveset only the basic A attacks are even weapon-only attacks.

 

[Wiseguy]

My problem with Roy is the same as with Marth. He hasn't apeared in a game released outside of Japan, while there are plenty of cool Fire Eblem charcaters who have been released internationally that are more deserving of a spot in Brawl.

Lyn has been released internationally, but she does not have much of a fanbase in Japan, as is made evident by the fact that she did not appear on Sakurai's poll.

In my mind, PoR charcaters and GoD have the best chance of making it into Brawl.

Also, what do you guys think of my criteria for which Melee characters to remove? I would have expected alot more outrage by now.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

@Wiseguy

Roy technically has been released internationally as he had a cameo appearance at the very end of FE7.

As for your criteria, most I agree on but some of it I don't. The only thing I don't agree with is if they are more recent. I also don't think area of origin, or if the game came over or not, should impact Brawl if the character has already been introduced over here.

One of the things everyone should agree on, and I see you do, is importance. Both Marth and Roy are very important to the Fire Emblem series and that is why I think we should just add on to the series.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

To be honest, the only real objections I have to it are Marth (but you should know that by now), Mewtwo and Ice Climbers and to a lesser extent G&W (though I'm quite skeptical about him returning). I'm not fussed about Y Link (either upgrade him to the Cel shaded style or leave him out) and everyone else is pretty much about right (though depending on how the pokemon fanbase has changed, Jigglypuff may also be in danger, but I'm not aware of how that's going on).

Though I agree with Suichimo that FE will probably get 1 or 2 more character slots, I'd just like a bit of diversity within it as it's not just about the swordsman (though they are the most likely characters). However, Pokemon is one Nintendo's most popular and best selling franchises, so it's only natural that they have so many characters. Kirby is also Sakurai's own creation, though he is quite modest and would probably be content with simply Kirby, MetaKnight at DeDeDe.

FE is really a hard series to predict though. The only really safe character is Ike, thouh I'm very confident in Marth's return. However, from then on it appears like it could be anyones game.

 

[Bowserlick]

I believe that there should be only one FE representative in Brawl.

FE is a strategy game involving Lords and armies. Marth's moveset (at least his special moves) showcases the strategy aspect. He can counter attacks with his sword and sword dance to hurt a foe or to return to the stage). His regular moves demonstrate his swordplay.

Take into consideration that there may be other sword characters in Melee. Metaknight has short range, but quick bursts with his blade. Pit can split his bladed bow into daggers making his fighting adaptable. Gannondorf may return with a sword. Link will have his sword moveset.

Therefore, I do not think that FE characters have enough diversity to throw in more the one representative (especially when all the Lords looks so similar). Ness was rumored to have been replaced by Lucas in Melee, but Earthbound 3 did not come out in time. Therefore, Sakurai may not be adverse to trading main characters from one squel for another.

I say either Marth or Ike will be in the new game. But not both and certainly not the Black Knight (which sounds like Gannondorf without the coolness).

 

[snipertango]

okay time to let my anger issues arise once again.

1) Saying Marth is important cause hes the first character in FE doesnt hold. The first character could have been named asshat would that have made him more important the first ever lord being asshat.

2)obviously by the post from the dude with the roy picture SOS is more popular then the international games.

3)People who judge FE6 without playing how about you get smart and play the emulated version before you judge

4)the roy guy brought up an interesting point. FE6 came out after SSBM which would mean giving roy new moves and making him in no way a clone is a very good possibility.

5)The japanese market in Wii game cases doenst mean **** provided this time around the US gets everything Wii based before japan. Although i agree that there are some characters from PoR id like to see in Brawl.

7)It seems like the roy guy knows more about roy's past then anyone.

8)I love how people say marth and ike wont be the same but they are both range fighters. Hey ****ers if you actually studied SSBM youd see that with Roy you need to change to a close range fighter and Marth is all ranged.

9)People who say roy is bad probably dont play him. The only reason roy players dont win in tournaments is because people in tournaments have no lives and conform to playing high tier characters. Roy can be **** good you just have to try it and know how to play him *****es.

10)someone mentioned i cleared things up for them youre welcome and youre my hero.

11)I dont care if i dont know alot about swords the point is with swords you slice and stab. In the days of FE cases obviously sword fighting was stab and slice.

12)My ideas ex marth put Ike in and Leave roy cause roy has options now that his game is released. Keep both and add Ike as a new character. Or ex them both and do the whole ike and black knight thing although i think the name black knight is cliche xD i think the whole ability to teleport is cool.

13)Im done time to go kick *** with Roy cause i actually know how to play him. Anyone who talks **** to me prepared to get your *** kicked. Although talking **** on here just shows how childish you really are

 

[Wiseguy]

I believe that there should be only one FE representative in Brawl.

FE is a strategy game involving Lords and armies. Marth's moveset (at least his special moves) showcases the strategy aspect. He can counter attacks with his sword and sword dance to hurt a foe or to return to the stage). His regular moves demonstrate his swordplay.

Take into consideration that there may be other sword characters in Melee. Metaknight has short range, but quick bursts with his blade. Pit can split his bladed bow into daggers making his fighting adaptable. Gannondorf may return with a sword. Link will have his sword moveset.

Therefore, I do not think that FE characters have enough diversity to throw in more the one representative (especially when all the Lords looks so similar). Ness was rumored to have been replaced by Lucas in Melee, but Earthbound 3 did not come out in time. Therefore, Sakurai may not be adverse to trading main characters from one squel for another.

I say either Marth or Ike will be in the new game. But not both and certainly not the Black Knight (which sounds like Gannondorf without the coolness).

No disrespect dude, but if you had actually played a Fire Emblem game you would know that every Fire Emblem game has a huge diversity of charcaters. The most recent game in the series, for example, contained sword fighters, axe fighters, spear fighters, heavily armoured generals, mages, priests, shape shifting laguz and mounted units like calvary, pegasus riders and wyvern riders. All of them have a unique contribution to the story and an interesting personality.

This is why I don't think both Marth and Ike will make it into the game: using two charcaters with so similar fighting styles and appearances does not do justice to the wide variety of characters in the Fire Emblem series.

Oh, and the Black Knight is the personification of awesome. Play Path of Radiance and you'll realize this.

Edit: Looks like Snipertango has come to settle this debate with his renouned cool-headedness and diplomacy skills. Thank goodness.

 

[Master_Sheik]

I don't think I would miss the characters per say, however I would miss their play style. As long as fire emblem get some sort of representation, (which they will) I'll be happy.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

following from Wiseguy's last comment - Except some of his arguments are somewhat confusing. He does bring up some good points, but the asterisk abuse is somewhat painful.

And yes, if the first lord was called asshat, had appeared in two games and when introduced in melee then he'd be one if not the most important character to the FE franchise. Regardless, it's one of those 'what if' scenarios that doesn't hold any water because there's no way to back it up. The fact is Marth is the first FE character, and is therefore the founder of FE, and I don't know about you, but that makes him **** important as far as I'm concerned. Also, Marth isn't a ranged fighter at all, however both Roy and Ike are in terms of FE, as their signature weapons are both able to fire fire/energy at characters that aren't in close combat range.

I also strongly disagree with Bowserlick, as FE really shouldn't get just one rep (honestly, none of the series should get less rep than they already have). However, I believe Wiseguy is right in that he doesn't actually seemed to have played the FE games or know a great deal about them. There is a great deal of different characters that the FE series can provide, it just happens that the most likely and popular ones are swordsman. And really, as long as they focus on fast and disciplined for Marth and rough and powerful for Ike, then that's diverse enough as far as style goes. Though I agree with Bowserlick about Black Knight.

And as I said before, I rather have characters that have the same hair colour but fight differently (Marth and Ike) than two characters that look completely different but are otherwise exactly the same (Ike and BK).

As for Roy, I do like playing as him, and the fact that he isn't as good as Marth competitively doesn't mean he should be taken out. I just think that he hasn't the best chances of returning.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

okay time to let my anger issues arise once again.

1) Saying Marth is important cause hes the first character in FE doesnt hold. The first character could have been named asshat would that have made him more important the first ever lord being asshat.

2)obviously by the post from the dude with the roy picture SOS is more popular then the international games.

3)People who judge FE6 without playing how about you get smart and play the emulated version before you judge

4)the roy guy brought up an interesting point. FE6 came out after SSBM which would mean giving roy new moves and making him in no way a clone is a very good possibility.

5)The japanese market in Wii game cases doenst mean **** provided this time around the US gets everything Wii based before japan. Although i agree that there are some characters from PoR id like to see in Brawl.

7)It seems like the roy guy knows more about roy's past then anyone.

8)I love how people say marth and ike wont be the same but they are both range fighters. Hey ****ers if you actually studied SSBM youd see that with Roy you need to change to a close range fighter and Marth is all ranged.

9)People who say roy is bad probably dont play him. The only reason roy players dont win in tournaments is because people in tournaments have no lives and conform to playing high tier characters. Roy can be **** good you just have to try it and know how to play him *****es.

10)someone mentioned i cleared things up for them youre welcome and youre my hero.

11)I dont care if i dont know alot about swords the point is with swords you slice and stab. In the days of FE cases obviously sword fighting was stab and slice.

12)My ideas ex marth put Ike in and Leave roy cause roy has options now that his game is released. Keep both and add Ike as a new character. Or ex them both and do the whole ike and black knight thing although i think the name black knight is cliche xD i think the whole ability to teleport is cool.

13)Im done time to go kick *** with Roy cause i actually know how to play him. Anyone who talks **** to me prepared to get your *** kicked. Although talking **** on here just shows how childish you really are

1. Then the most important character in Fire Emblem would have been named Asshat. Odd name, but still the most important character in Fire Emblem.

3. If people haven't played it then yes they should play it, hopefully they can stand up to its difficulty.

4. But FE6 came out only a few months afterwards, which means the game should have been into testing by that time.

5. No, the Japanese base means quite alot. There is already a crapload of stuff that we haven't gotten and very few things we've gotten before them. They had online pretty much at the start with Pokemon Battle Revolution, and that isn't coming out until June here. Goddess of Dawn(FE10) is already out over there and is still has no date yet over here.

7. Anyone who'd get off their butt could easily look into it.

8. No, by definition Marth is a close range fighter and Ike is a close range fighter with ranged capabilities. A character like Samus is a ranged fighter. If they correct Roy he would be a close range fighter with ranged capabilities, with that ranged ability being different from Ike's.

9. Neo and Masashi still win with Roy. Its just Roy has such a hard time. In Melee Roy got screwed over in attacks and strength. Marth definitely should not have been stronger than Roy.

11. No the point of all swords wasn't to slice and stab. Swords like the long sword were built for slashing. Swords like the rapier were made with a piercing point to do just that, pierce through the opponent's armor. If all a sword was meant to do was slice and stab then there wouldn't be such a wide variation between the many different styles.

12. Why not just leave both characters in and add a couple of more. Fire Emblem has been around for 17 year and has its 10th game out. That is a pretty good record.

13. Ok. Also did you notice that you forgot a number 6.

No disrespect dude, but if you had actually played a Fire Emblem game you would know that every Fire Emblem game has a huge diversity of charcaters. The most recent game in the series, for example, contained sword fighters, axe fighters, spear fighters, heavily armoured generals, mages, priests, shape shifting laguz and mounted units like calvary, pegasus riders and wyvern riders. All of them have a unique contribution to the story and an interesting personality.

This is why I don't think both Marth and Ike will make it into the game: using two charcaters with so similar fighting styles and appearances does not do justice to the wide variety of characters in the Fire Emblem series.

Oh, and the Black Knight is the personification of awesome. Play Path of Radiance and you'll realize this.

Edit: Looks like Snipertango has come to settle this debate with his renouned cool-headedness and diplomacy skills. Thank goodness.

I agree with you about that guy. It doesn't seem as if he knows what he is talking about. They've always had a diverse cast of characters.

Once again. Marth and Ike don't have anywhere near the same fighting style.

I personally thought that Black Knight was overrated. The only character I even like in FE9 is Nephenee. I'm using both her and Brad in GoD when it comes out and getting them to Holy Lancer.

 

[snipertango]

no but thanks hahaha 6) there its added now xD

 

[snipertango]

no but thanks hahaha 6) there its added now xD

 

[Bowserlick]

I also strongly disagree with Bowserlick, as FE really shouldn't get just one rep (honestly, none of the series should get less rep than they already have). However, I believe Wiseguy is right in that he doesn't actually seemed to have played the FE games or know a great deal about them. There is a great deal of different characters that the FE series can provide, it just happens that the most likely and popular ones are swordsman. And really, as long as they focus on fast and disciplined for Marth and rough and powerful for Ike, then that's diverse enough as far as style goes. Though I agree with Bowserlick about Black Knight.

You caught me. I have not played any FE games. However, it doesn't matter if the FE world is full of magic, shapeshifters, flying mounts, and all that other fantasy flavor. The fact is that only the main Lords will probably see play. And the Lords that most people are rooting for have swords (which you did mention).

Now I would hate to give up a character spot to have two swordsman from the same franchise.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

@Bowserlick

Then you don't know how different swordsmen can be. Within just swords there are probably literally hundreds of ways to use it, in different fighting styles. Its not very smart to just think of it as slash, slash, slash. This alone would allow many different movesets. You shouldn't use a rapier the same way as a long sword, you shouldn't use a long sword the same way as a katana, you shouldn't use a katana the same way as a great sword, you shouldn't use a great sword the same way as a rapier, and there are a crapload more types of swords that I didn't even mention such as zweihanders, b**tard swords, short sword, and others.

Just because they both use a sword doesn't mean anything. Even within the same sword there are many different styles. Also guess what. The main reason people are going for Lords who use swords instead of other types of weapons is because those Lords who do use swords would represent more than the ones who didn't. Hector could be exchangable with Lyn but I don't know about their fanbases and Ephraim is nowhere near important. Then there is Micaiah but I think she might be underestimated a bit. Other than those three, all of the Lords have used swords as their main weapon type.

 

[-Wolfy-]

I think Marth would have more of a chance simply because the competition offered by Marth players is almost undeniable. I could see a massive amount of outrage if Marth doesn't make the cut. Roy I think most could live with out.

 

[xianfeng]

Secondly, as I've previously stated, I don't accept that Marth is as important or more important to the Fire Emblem series than Ike. True, they both star in two Fire Emblem games, but Marth's games were released over a decade ago and were never released outside the U.S.

Marth started the FE series and about not being released in the US, Sakurai doesn't give a **** about anyone outside of Japan so that point is kind of void.

I would even argue that the Black Knight is more important than Marth because, as you say, he is playable in GoD and was the main villian in PoR. From what I can gather, Marth is mainly popular among smashers who like his powerful moveset and not so much among non-Japanese Fire Emblem fans. Ike, on the other hand, is popular among Fire Emblem fans everywhere including Japan. Therefore, he would make a far better Fire Emblem representative.

The Black Knight wasn't the main villain in PoR, Ashnard was... Marth was the most requested FE character for SSBM so he's very popular as well as important and plus The Black Knight's only playable for 2 chapters in part 1.

I understand why you would want for than two Fire Emblem games represented, but most of the games were only released in Japan and the Gameboy games not very well recieved inside Japan. PoR and GoD and the only two that are truly popular globally.

So? Sakurai only cares about Japan.

Just because something was released only in Japan doesn't decrease its chances. Japan is the only one Sora is going to care about. They aren't going to really care what we say. Oh, and if the GBA games weren't well received can you please tell me why FE6 is the third highest selling FE game in Japan and PoR and GoD are on the lower end of that spectrum.

FE6 got free advertising with SSBM, if Roy wasn't in SSBM than FE6 wouldn't have sold that well.

Roy technically has been released internationally as he had a cameo appearance at the very end of FE7.

Which was removed in the European/Australian version so it's not worldwide.

This is why I don't think both Marth and Ike will make it into the game: using two charcaters with so similar fighting styles and appearances does not do justice to the wide variety of characters in the Fire Emblem series.

Marth and Ike DON'T have similar fighting style unless of course jabbing is the same as slashing.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

@xianfeng

Do you constantly go around thinking of ways to trash Roy all day? Trust me SSBM wouldn't have been the only factor in the sales of FE6. Japan had also been without an available Fire Emblem game for the past six years when FE6 came out, FE5 came out in 2000 but was only available through Nintendo's website. I'm fairly certain that, even if Roy wasn't in SSBM, FE6 would have still had good sales.

Another thing. Nintendo still paid to advertise FE6. It would have sold even if he hadn't been in SSBM. The thing is PoR and GoD haven't even matched FnT's opening week sales or any other sales. GoD has just gotten above PoR's sales per week a couple of days ago. And I'm fairly certain they would have gotten at least as much advertisement as FnT did.

The fact is FE6 still sold more and I don't see either of those two games catching up with it.

 

[Wiseguy]

Marth started the FE series and about not being released in the US, Sakurai doesn't give a **** about anyone outside of Japan so that point is kind of void.


The Black Knight wasn't the main villain in PoR, Ashnard was... Marth was the most requested FE character for SSBM so he's very popular as well as important and plus The Black Knight's only playable for 2 chapters in part 1.


So? Sakurai only cares about Japan.



Marth and Ike DON'T have similar fighting style unless of course jabbing is the same as slashing.

I think it would be an exageration to say that Sakurai does not care about American gamers at all. After all, he did add Zero-suit Samus (a character from the Metroid series which is popular in places like the U.S by not in Japan) and he also expressed reservations about putting more Japanese only characters into Brawl. True, Nintendo is a Japanese based company but most of their audience (and profits) come from other countries. I think Sakurai will try and balance the tastes of both Japanese and Western gamers.

As for who is the main villian in PoR, I guess it is open to debate. True, Ashnard is the final boss but the Black Knight appeared far more often and had a far greater impact on the main charcaters, especially Ike.

Also, I appreciate the relivance of GoD to this debate, but please try to keep spoilers to a minimum for Fire Emblem nuts like me who want to be surprised when the game comes out.

Finally, let me clarify my argument about the fighting style similarities. If Ike and Marth had identical fighting styles, then Ike could simply be Marth's cone and Sakurai could have the two charcaters in the game without devoting too much development time to them.

Likewise, if Ike was a completely different kind of unit (like a mage or a laguz) the two movesets would be completely unique, making the longer development time required to make them unique justifiable.

Neither case is true. Marth and Ike are just different enough that they could not be clones and just similar enough that its not worth it to program two distinct movesets. Sure, Ike uses vertical slices, is slower and more powerful and could have a ranged sword attack but at the end of the day they are two guys carrying big swords.

The solution is to replace Marth with the Black Knight, who is well suited to be Ike's clone, or a Fire Emblem rep with a more unique moveset.

 

[El HP]

@El HP

I don't know why they did that to Roy. Not only should he have atleast been a bit stronger than Marth, but where was his ranged attack? The only advantages Roy has over Marth is the DED, Counter, and Flare Blade. And we all know how much of a practical in-battle attack Flare Blade is.

Completely agree is a shame really because to be honest I like roy more than marth.

9)People who say roy is bad probably dont play him. The only reason roy players dont win in tournaments is because people in tournaments have no lives and conform to playing high tier characters. Roy can be **** good you just have to try it and know how to play him *****es.

Bad generalization I play as roy more than marth in fact I barely play as the overpowered characters roy is underpowered he is too slow, his only koing move is his forward smash which hard to hit specially when playing fast characters, he is easy to combo, his recovery is pretty bad one of the worst in the game, you got to hit with the middle of the sword lowering your reach, his aereals moves are basically the worst in the game.

 

[Bowserlick]

@Bowserlick

Then you don't know how different swordsmen can be. Within just swords there are probably literally hundreds of ways to use it, in different fighting styles. Its not very smart to just think of it as slash, slash, slash. This alone would allow many different movesets. You shouldn't use a rapier the same way as a long sword, you shouldn't use a long sword the same way as a katana, you shouldn't use a katana the same way as a great sword, you shouldn't use a great sword the same way as a rapier, and there are a crapload more types of swords that I didn't even mention such as zweihanders, b**tard swords, short sword, and others.

Just because they both use a sword doesn't mean anything. Even within the same sword there are many different styles. Also guess what. The main reason people are going for Lords who use swords instead of other types of weapons is because those Lords who do use swords would represent more than the ones who didn't. Hector could be exchangable with Lyn but I don't know about their fanbases and Ephraim is nowhere near important. Then there is Micaiah but I think she might be underestimated a bit. Other than those three, all of the Lords have used swords as their main weapon type.

I understand where you are coming from. But for a sword character to truely be different from another sword character he or she has to carve (pun intended) their own niche.

FE characters are all about strategy. Different weapons trump other weapons and so on. Therefore, most of the difference between FE sword users are in the swing or jab of the sword. You can have a big vertical body splitter slice or a quick jab or a defensive horizantal swing. But these differences do not register very well in Smash which is a quick paced, zany game.

Sakurai says at the end of his "How this Game Came to be Made" essay about Brawl," Let's take it to the edge with a lot of weird stuff!" I doubt he had adding a few FE lords with hard to discern swordplay from each other in mind.

What do I mean by sword characters carving their own niche?

Link uses his sword for mostly heavy hits. He relies on it as a finisher. Most of his game revolves around his inventory (the items he collected from dungeons). He exploits his enemies weakness with a particular or multitiude of arsenal such as bombs, arrows, a bommerang, grappiling hook, ect. and then ends the battle with his sword (just like in his boss fights).

Metaknight uses quick bursts of speed in his swordplay to rack up damage (or at least this an be speculated by the videos). This might be boring on its own, but Metaknight holds unquie properties such as his ability to jump multiple times and to glide horizantally. Plus unlike most swordsman, his range seems short.

Pit seems to balance the two with his ability to switch his blades into a longer bladed bow. Plus he fights with dual blades.

Marth has pure stat advantage (which hopefully will be changed if he returns). But I think he was intended to be a fast, graceful fighter.

All four also look different from each other and represent their own world.

That is why I do not think another FE lord can really add much to the game.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I imagine, due to Ike's style and his very stocky build in GoD, that he'll through a few punches and kicks in his moveset. We really don't have a power based swordsman at the moment (I really wouldn't label Link as power, and neither Pit nor Meta Knight look like they are going that way), so I don't see how Ike doesn't bring anything new. Like you said, Marth is a elegant and lithe fighter, and you'd be crazy if you think Ike would play anything close to that (seriously, imagining Ike fighting gracefully has me in stitches)

Again, you really need to play the Fe games to get a better impression of how the characters work. There are still the fast paced swordsman like Marth (mainly the Myrmidons and swordmasters) and then there are the heavy hitters like Ike (Mercenaries mainly, which I think Ike is loosely based off). I'm fairly confident that Marth and Ike can be made incredibly different, you should really have more faith in Sakurai. Plus, how far are characters taken from their games. Very few characters are truly capable of doing everything they can do in Smash in their respective games (I don't remember Marth doing anything close to his dolphin splash or dancing blade moves in FE). Chances are they'll throw in a few things to give each FE character a bit more flavour.And like I said, not all FE characters are swordsman, and Sakurai is aware of that. I don't expect every FE character in brawl will be a swordsman.

Judging from how many ties FE appeared in his poll and the fact that one of the characters he is most interested in was from FE, I get the impression that Sakurai has a particular fondness for the series, and FE did have 2 characters in the last installment, so thinking that Sakurai will only have 1 FE rep this time round is, quite honestly, ridiculous.

 

[Bowserlick]

The problem still arises that both Ike and Marth look enough the same and both use the same weapons and both are from the same game.

And a fighting plus sword moveset seems like it will be going to Gannondorf (who is a heavy hitter, has a distinguished look, and magic to spice things up).

I bet that there will only be one FE lord, unless of course they decide to throw in clones again.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Wait, so it's alright for Link and Ganondorf to both use swords despite the fact they've been together in many games, yet Marth and Ike can't despite they haven't ever been in the same game. Regardless, Marth and Ike don't look that similar at all if Ike is using his GoD look, which is really the most likely. Honestly, if they couldn't have two characters that have the same hair colour, then we can't have both Peach and Zelda.

And don't bring Ganondorf up, we have no idea how he'll revamped into brawl. We don't even know if Sakurai will give him a sword anyway (and even then they have 3 styles to choose from). As far as I'm concerned they could literally go anywhere with Gannon, so the fact that he could be a fighter + sword character is entirely moot. Ike is much more easily to predict however, and he has priority over the fighter + sword moveset (because as you said, Gannon has magic to fall back on)

And for the last time, not all FE lords are swordsmen. Heck, very few are sword exclusive, and there is room for 2 sword wielding FE lords (without resorting to clones).

 

[snipertango]

well if you know all the techniques i.e wavedashing and L-cancelling roy moves pretty fast his up+a smash isnt too bad either but i agree they ****ed up roy and i like playing roy more so then marth

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

I think it would be an exageration to say that Sakurai does not care about American gamers at all. After all, he did add Zero-suit Samus (a character from the Metroid series which is popular in places like the U.S by not in Japan) and he also expressed reservations about putting more Japanese only characters into Brawl. True, Nintendo is a Japanese based company but most of their audience (and profits) come from other countries. I think Sakurai will try and balance the tastes of both Japanese and Western gamers.

As for who is the main villian in PoR, I guess it is open to debate. True, Ashnard is the final boss but the Black Knight appeared far more often and had a far greater impact on the main charcaters, especially Ike.

Also, I appreciate the relivance of GoD to this debate, but please try to keep spoilers to a minimum for Fire Emblem nuts like me who want to be surprised when the game comes out.

Finally, let me clarify my argument about the fighting style similarities. If Ike and Marth had identical fighting styles, then Ike could simply be Marth's cone and Sakurai could have the two charcaters in the game without devoting too much development time to them.

Likewise, if Ike was a completely different kind of unit (like a mage or a laguz) the two movesets would be completely unique, making the longer development time required to make them unique justifiable.

Neither case is true. Marth and Ike are just different enough that they could not be clones and just similar enough that its not worth it to program two distinct movesets. Sure, Ike uses vertical slices, is slower and more powerful and could have a ranged sword attack but at the end of the day they are two guys carrying big swords.

The solution is to replace Marth with the Black Knight, who is well suited to be Ike's clone, or a Fire Emblem rep with a more unique moveset.

However our importance is nowhere near that of the Japanese to them.

The point about the fighting styles is that Ike and Marth don't have similar fighting styles. Therefore rendering your argument null. Also Sakurai wants to keep characters original. Ike and Marth are so completely different from each other in all but hair color. It would be relatively easy if they took the time. Ike has both the ranged attack, and he has Aether for the Brawl attack. Marth has close range attacks only and skills weren't introduced until FE4.

It doesn't matter that they use they same type of weapon. There is a vast amount of difference between them. The solution is not to replace Marth or Roy, and add one or two more. Black Knight is nowhere near significant to the series, however Ike is.

I understand where you are coming from. But for a sword character to truely be different from another sword character he or she has to carve (pun intended) their own niche.

FE characters are all about strategy. Different weapons trump other weapons and so on. Therefore, most of the difference between FE sword users are in the swing or jab of the sword. You can have a big vertical body splitter slice or a quick jab or a defensive horizantal swing. But these differences do not register very well in Smash which is a quick paced, zany game.

Sakurai says at the end of his "How this Game Came to be Made" essay about Brawl," Let's take it to the edge with a lot of weird stuff!" I doubt he had adding a few FE lords with hard to discern swordplay from each other in mind.

What do I mean by sword characters carving their own niche?

Link uses his sword for mostly heavy hits. He relies on it as a finisher. Most of his game revolves around his inventory (the items he collected from dungeons). He exploits his enemies weakness with a particular or multitiude of arsenal such as bombs, arrows, a bommerang, grappiling hook, ect. and then ends the battle with his sword (just like in his boss fights).

Metaknight uses quick bursts of speed in his swordplay to rack up damage (or at least this an be speculated by the videos). This might be boring on its own, but Metaknight holds unquie properties such as his ability to jump multiple times and to glide horizantally. Plus unlike most swordsman, his range seems short.

Pit seems to balance the two with his ability to switch his blades into a longer bladed bow. Plus he fights with dual blades.

Marth has pure stat advantage (which hopefully will be changed if he returns). But I think he was intended to be a fast, graceful fighter.

All four also look different from each other and represent their own world.

That is why I do not think another FE lord can really add much to the game.

Once again, you demonstrate your lack of knowledge on this issue.

Actually the different kinds of attacks easily register in Smash. Sword play is not hard to discern. Batto/iaijutsu, same thing but one of the terms is newer and one is the older term, is nowhere near the same as Kendo. They are two vastly different sword styles meant for two different thing. Kendo is meant for defense where Battojutsu is an offensive style where you rely on one strike to take your opponent down.

Fire Emblem isn't only in one world. At least do some research if your going to comment on something you've never experienced. Marth is from the continent of Akaenia, Roy is from the continent of Elibe, Ike is from the continent of Tellius. None of these three characters have ever been in the same game, save Roy and Marth in SSBM. There isn't even anything in the games that would even put any of the continents in the same world or universe.

The problem still arises that both Ike and Marth look enough the same and both use the same weapons and both are from the same game.

And a fighting plus sword moveset seems like it will be going to Gannondorf (who is a heavy hitter, has a distinguished look, and magic to spice things up).

I bet that there will only be one FE lord, unless of course they decide to throw in clones again.

They share the same hair color, wow. They really look alike. So what if they use the same weapon. Even within the same weapon there are different ways to fight with it. So they both use a long sword wow. Ike and Marth are vastly different from each other and don't fight the same way, then there is also the fact where Ike has a ranged attack and Marth doesn't. Also they have never been in the same game before, there isn't even anything to say they've been in the same world.

I also love how Ganondorf would obviously be an exception.

 

[Wiseguy]

The solution is not to replace Marth or Roy, and add one or two more. Black Knight is nowhere near significant to the series, however Ike is.

That would be nice, but I can't imagine Fire Emblem getting four representatives in Brawl. It just doesn't that the huge fan following of something like Pokemon (which is an incredible injustice.)

Since I'll obviously never convince you that the worthiness of the Black Knight, how about another character? Mikaya is one of the main lords in the upcoming Fire Emblem game Goddess of Dawn. She is a female Light mage, so she would undoubtably have a completely different move set from any other charcater in Brawl, including Ike.

So essentially, we are establishing a pattern. Every Smash Bros. game Sakurai includes the most important Fire Emblem lord at that time (before it was Marth and now it is Ike) in addition to a Lord from the upcoming Fire Emblem game (Mikaya could replace Roy).

Thoughts?

 

[snipertango]

i just want roy back hah but i like the thought youre giving how about this how about no new fire emblem characters =o how does that spark everyones interest stop the argument just say roy and marth should return

 

[Wiseguy]

i just want roy back hah but i like the thought youre giving how about this how about no new fire emblem characters =o how does that spark everyones interest stop the argument just say roy and marth should return

If all you want to do is play as Marth and Roy, then you still play as them until your hearts content in Melee. The point of making a new Smash Bros. game is to play as new characters.

 

[SuichimoTheDragoon]

@Wiseguy

The entire point of a new game is not just to play new characters. It is also to see what they did with the old ones. Who would've guessed that Pika or Kirby would drop so much from SSB to SSBM.

 

[Bowserlick]

Here is the question of the ages. If only one FE charater could make it into Brawl, which one would you pick?

I think I would go for Ike, since Marth had his chance and Ike seems to be the new lord in town.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Personally, if the option was entirely up to me, probably Lyndis (my personal favourite). However, I'd say the likeliest one is Ike. I've more confidence in Ike getting in than Marth's return. Plus if Sakurai is pushed for keeping an old moveset or adding a new one, he'd probably try out the new one unless he had some sort of attatchment to the old one.

But like I said, there's enough room for both of them, and I still think a 3rd character is quite reasonable (and if it turns out there are quite a few characters, then 4 may be a possibilty, though I'm sticking with 3 for now).

 

[Chief Mendez]

Only one character? Hector. Gotta' love the Great Lords.

Anyway, Marth needs to go. Likewise for Roy. Ike deserves a spot, but I'd rather not see the Black Knight, because he's basically the most uninspired FE character I have ever had the displeasure of getting stuck on. I'd like someone from Goddess of Dawn, but a mage? It just doesn't seem right. Sothe might work though.

Coincidentally, Portrait of Ruin and Path of Radiance have the same rare abbreviation.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Personally I'd prefer Micaiah over Sothe, I think a mage could work quite well in smash (as long as they do it right, Zelda could've been a bit better). Though Sothe would also make a nice addition. They are really the only characters I can see getting in from Goddess of Dawn (Elincia is quite important, but I can't see how they'd incorporate the fact she's a Pegasus Knight into her moveset).