Marth Matchup thread.

[Chesstiger2612]

Spot dodge more against Lucario instead of shielding than you would do normally. If you see he is overagressive you can also use counters. Otherwise basic Marth spacing+combos. A sweetspotting Lucario isnt really edgeguardable otherwise d-tilt or shield breaker

 

[DJ _ICE]

Against Lucario you don't want to let him hit you or your shield or he'll start doing his crazy Lucario magic on you. Rely more on your movement and evasion and you'll win.

 

[bksbestbwoy]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels like Marth v. Mario is one of the most annoying things ever at any level. Also good to see that I'm adapting to the match up better with more SH fairs and nairs to stop the Mario players from playing Vanquish/Megaman 8 all the time and forcing clinks with fireballs. I really wish if I had better ways of going on the offense versus Mario though. It's rough playing to someone else's tempo, especially when so much can lead into stupidity like Slide - C Stick down smash or CC dtilt - fsmash.

And the camping...

That being said, am I a total scrub or is the Marth vs. Roy match up somewhat frustrating? It's either you run circles around them until they guess right and stay in your face off that one guess or they ROFLstomp you out of your readjustment phases midmatch? CC dtilts hit you out of your own CC dtilts and lead to big combos, "random" ftilt/fsmash is just too jarring (holy **** that knockback and active area) and of course the decreased emphasis on tipper spacing makes it so these moves get tossed out more often therefore, movement has to be kept to its barest minimum. My frame of reference is limited to sets with my brother really and while I have the advantages in how long I've played Marth and general movement, he very easily has the advantage of playing a character that fits himself (there is no direction but "in" or "forward") and scores big off any one mistake or hesitation I have.

 

[Amazerommu]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels like Marth v. Mario is one of the most annoying things ever at any level. Also good to see that I'm adapting to the match up better with more SH fairs and nairs to stop the Mario players from playing Vanquish/Megaman 8 all the time and forcing clinks with fireballs. I really wish if I had better ways of going on the offense versus Mario though. It's rough playing to someone else's tempo, especially when so much can lead into stupidity like Slide - C Stick down smash or CC dtilt - fsmash.

And the camping...

That being said, am I a total scrub or is the Marth vs. Roy match up somewhat frustrating? It's either you run circles around them until they guess right and stay in your face off that one guess or they ROFLstomp you out of your readjustment phases midmatch? CC dtilts hit you out of your own CC dtilts and lead to big combos, "random" ftilt/fsmash is just too jarring (holy **** that knockback and active area) and of course the decreased emphasis on tipper spacing makes it so these moves get tossed out more often therefore, movement has to be kept to its barest minimum. My frame of reference is limited to sets with my brother really and while I have the advantages in how long I've played Marth and general movement, he very easily has the advantage of playing a character that fits himself (there is no direction but "in" or "forward") and scores big off any one mistake or hesitation I have.

Oh em gee Mario is such a piece of ****! I totally agree about the fireballs... and it's stupid easy for him to combo out of any and all approaches... and any and all throws... by throws I mean d-throw... and u-throw at lower percentages... I would like to know if it's possible to DI out of d-throw so Mario doesn't get those cheap ass combos... It's an easy 50% damage... too easy... Way too easy... Way too impossibly easy...

As for Roy... I haven't fought any particularly good ones I'm guessing, as I usually don't have much trouble with him. The only thing that catches me is that ridiculously long-ranged f-tilt. It's easy enough to shield then WD OOS for a grab or something. When I'm using Roy though... I just have trouble in general. lol

 

[NonSequtur]

I don't think Roy's that hard to be honest. He's too easy to edgeguard and combo, and Marth has a better neutral. Is he still the 5th fastest faller in the game? Not as crazy as C. Falcon or the space animals, but it still hurts him.

And yes, Mario is a massive pain. I think I just need to learn how to combo him better.

 

[UMR | donmk]

...My frame of reference is limited to sets with my brother really and while I have the advantages in how long I've played Marth and general movement, he very easily has the advantage of playing a character that fits himself (there is no direction but "in" or "forward") and scores big off any one mistake or hesitation I have.

For Roy, I've had the best results dash dancing around and baiting something out, then run in for a grab and up throw into up tilt / uair. If all he's doing is mindlessly approaching you, use that to your advantage. If he runs up and hits you, shield into shield grab. If you have the space, always be moving. This makes it harder for him to just throw out a move and hit you with it. Marth's wavedash is also very handy in this situation because you can run in, bait the move, wavedash back and then go for the grab while Roy is in endlag. Lastly, if you can get him on a platform, you should be able to get a lot of damage on him just by shffl uairs. When you hit him off stage, just ledge-hog. If he makes it back to the stage, ledge hop uair and start the juggle games again. Sometimes, you get that really satisfying ledge hop uair -> f smash.

As for Mario, I really don't like him. You'll hear everyone in the Project M boards say that Marth has a good match up against Mario because he out ranges him and fair gets rid of fireballs. What they fail to mention is that if the Mario approaches with fireballs, then fairing them means he punishes you and not fairing them and getting hit means he punishes you. The best solution I've come up with is to always be close to him, never giving him the chance to fireball. Don't forget about Marth's superior grab range. You can go for f-throw into f smash / f tilt / fair or up throw into up air/tilt juggles. Mario can't really hit that well below him, but he can alter his falling speed, so be wary of being baited into a move only to have him side b in the air and punish you on the way down. Also, make sure you are always under and behind him, to reduce the risk of Mario's falling fairs, because they can hurt a lot.

The real problem I have with Mario is that trying to recover against him is ridiculously hard. You go low (as Marth should) and there's fireballs to try to snipe you or even take your jump. You go high, there's a cape. You don't sweet-spot the ledge, there's a cape. You shield against him, there's a cape that will still turn you around and do damage while you are in shield. Nothing says fun like being in shield facing away from a Mario. Cape is one of the very few moves in the game that forces you to play perfectly, and if you slip up a little, you're getting the hardest of punishes. Also, I'd love to see the hitboxes on that move. I feel like it has a lot more range and duration than the animation suggests.

 

[bksbestbwoy]

For Roy, I've had the best results dash dancing around and baiting something out, then run in for a grab and up throw into up tilt / uair. If all he's doing is mindlessly approaching you, use that to your advantage. If he runs up and hits you, shield into shield grab. If you have the space, always be moving. This makes it harder for him to just throw out a move and hit you with it. Marth's wavedash is also very handy in this situation because you can run in, bait the move, wavedash back and then go for the grab while Roy is in endlag. Lastly, if you can get him on a platform, you should be able to get a lot of damage on him just by shffl uairs. When you hit him off stage, just ledge-hog. If he makes it back to the stage, ledge hop uair and start the juggle games again. Sometimes, you get that really satisfying ledge hop uair -> f smash.

As for Mario, I really don't like him. You'll hear everyone in the Project M boards say that Marth has a good match up against Mario because he out ranges him and fair gets rid of fireballs. What they fail to mention is that if the Mario approaches with fireballs, then fairing them means he punishes you and not fairing them and getting hit means he punishes you. The best solution I've come up with is to always be close to him, never giving him the chance to fireball. Don't forget about Marth's superior grab range. You can go for f-throw into f smash / f tilt / fair or up throw into up air/tilt juggles. Mario can't really hit that well below him, but he can alter his falling speed, so be wary of being baited into a move only to have him side b in the air and punish you on the way down. Also, make sure you are always under and behind him, to reduce the risk of Mario's falling fairs, because they can hurt a lot.

The real problem I have with Mario is that trying to recover against him is ridiculously hard. You go low (as Marth should) and there's fireballs to try to snipe you or even take your jump. You go high, there's a cape. You don't sweet-spot the ledge, there's a cape. You shield against him, there's a cape that will still turn you around and do damage while you are in shield. Nothing says fun like being in shield facing away from a Mario. Cape is one of the very few moves in the game that forces you to play perfectly, and if you slip up a little, you're getting the hardest of punishes. Also, I'd love to see the hitboxes on that move. I feel like it has a lot more range and duration than the animation suggests.

Great stuff. I was actually weaving a lot more dash dancing into my play to deal with ftilt happiness in the Roy matchup and it gave me good results. TBH, it's mostly me transitioning back to playing Melee style after a loooooooooooooooong time away from Smash in general that's been working against me, but I feel like I'm finding my old self faster now. It still feels like a totally wacky matchup with the wildest swings in momentum at a moment's notice though. lol

Those thoughts of yours on the Mario matchup also make me glad that I haven't gotten rusty on calling it as I see it. Hyper offense it is.

Regarding Mario's cape, the move is a ****ing ******* and probably the reason why I dislike him so much after slide shenanigans (seriously, Mario's moves have active frames for days it feels). After fighting the war of attrition and finally getting in, it wears down on you to be so precise with spacing since you know a whiff is insta down smash/fsmash punished but getting any closer than Marth's tip is a cape into "do not pass go". There's also that weird phenomena where a sweet spotted cape launches you while turning you around if you're hovering anywhere in the air to deal with...

 

[CyberZixx]

I a couple quick questions about two match ups.

Ike: How does everyone recommend edgeguarding Ike's up b? I find whenever ike uses it I just gotta accept he will get back on and then try and send him off again.

Diddy Kong: Anyone have an answer to bananas? The goal of course to shut diddy down as to not pull them but once on screen they really mess up Marth's movement requiring more risky play otherwise pick up a banana which is just shuting yourself down.

 

[UMR | donmk]

I a couple quick questions about two match ups.

Ike: How does everyone recommend edgeguarding Ike's up b? I find whenever ike uses it I just gotta accept he will get back on and then try and send him off again.

Diddy Kong: Anyone have an answer to bananas? The goal of course to shut diddy down as to not pull them but once on screen they really mess up Marth's movement requiring more risky play otherwise pick up a banana which is just shuting yourself down.

I have a bit of experience in the Ike match up, and I find that your response to Up b is dependent on the position of Ike at the time he uses it. I like of Ike as having three up-b situations:

1. Ike can only grab the ledge out of up-b, and his up-b does not go above the stage significantly. In this situation, you have two options. Firstly, you can ledge-hog, which requires you to have very good timing. I prefer to do this by wavedashing to the ledge, but the timing is really strict. Secondly, you can perfectly space an F-Smash. You should be able to tip him while he spinning at the apex of his up-b without being hit. You're other more passive option is to just let him grab the ledge and put pressure on with dtilt / ftilt.

2. Ike is recovering above the stage, But can only make it to the ledge (or you read that he is going there). This is simple, while he is above you spinning around, you wavedash to ledge, and time your roll to ledge-hog him on the way down.

3. Ike is recovering above the stage, and will land on the stage. This is probably the most difficult. If you can get a hard read, you can go for a very fun up smash. If not, then position yourself so that you can side step dodge him on the way down and punish his endlag. As a side note, if you shield and get hit on the way up, he will very likely shield stab you on the way down unless you angle or spot dodge. The real problem with this option is that at any time, Ike can choose to go to the ledge instead. However, if you play it as though he will land on stage, the worst case is that he is on the ledge and you are in an advantageous situation. If you do it the other way around, he can and will hit you.

Lastly, Don't forget that the initial hilt hitbox sends you sky high. Do not get hit by it under any circumstances.

As for Diddy, I am less experienced here, but my guess would be wavedash grab the banana, then quickly either short hop aerial glide toss or shield into glide toss the banana (direction is up to you depending on situation of course). You are right that having a banana limits Marth a lot, but if you can do it quickly, you can actually move a very long way either defensively or offensively. You're trading sword spacing for extra movement, which also has the bonus of getting rid of the banana so you can do sword spacing after the crazy movement. Don't forget that if you are in the air, you can airdodge to grab the banana and then immediately glide toss it, giving you a crazy bit unexpected of movement in the air and also keeping you in active (since using AGT doesn't put you into special fall, even out of airdodge).

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

Spent most of my day playing Marth vs squirtle. I don't know what to do against that character. Its almost to the point where I'm getting beaten free.

When we are on stage its actually pretty easy. Until the squirtle presses side b. At low percents it beats everything and trades with fsmash. From what I've seen you can't do anything except try to avoid it and punish his recovery. Even then though, its about a 50-50 chance of you getting a correct bait and proper punish.

When I knock him offstage, his up-b is disjointed as all hell. Fsmash on stage loses, throwing out moves for a gimp puts you right in the waterfall's range. I tried using counter, but unlike fox and falco, it knocks him up, giving him a better recovery. If he decodes to side b, it eats any gimp attempt and is safe on block hit or whiff. Block leads to shield pressure, hit leads to combo, and whiff is back to neutral.

When I'm offstage however, its like I'm playing against sheik. Bubble is the next best thing to sheik needles, and not only that, but he also gets water gun that punishes poor spacing from the edge.

Downthrow is godlike, usmash is fox, wavedash is Luigi, height is ****ty like Jiggs, armor more useful than bowser, wind hitbox better than ivysaur, more gimps than sheik.

I've never felt salty in smash ever. And then I play that crap.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I wasn't having too much trouble with it, but I'm a relative scrub and wanted some insight. I'll just polish my game up then.

If their from the mushroom kingdom and are a man, you have like 65:35 MU or something like that with all of them, lol.

 

[Deleted member]

not really. mario bowser yoshi are fine against marth. peach is do-able. wario and luigi probably not so much.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

not really. mario bowser yoshi are fine against marth. peach is do-able. wario and luigi probably not so much.

Not Mario man, not mario...yoshi isn't really from the kingdom, at least I don't think so and boozer isn't even human!

 

[KingDozie]

not really. mario bowser yoshi are fine against marth. peach is do-able. wario and luigi probably not so much.

Yoshi does work on marth and the rest i dont care about really.

 

[KingDozie]

Does anyone know the Marth vs DK match up well?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Your dash grab slightly outranges both his JC and dash grab. Otherwise he is a pretty big target so your combos should work well. If he is in mixup your DI as much as possible but expect to eat many percents. Often it is a spacing war between your fair and his nair or bair you should position at angles where you outrange him. His dash attack is what annoys Marth most in neutral game because it beats your dash dance (if you don't have hyperfast reactions). To avoid it you mostly need to read him, often a prophylactic shield if you expect the DA helps, but it leaves you open for the grab.

 

[NonSequtur]

So I've been hearing how Squirtle loses to Marth and how he's one of the worst in the game, and then I practice against a CPU and find him to be a massive pain, more so than literally any other character. Edgeguarding and comboing isn't the biggest issue (though his up-b requires really good spacing to hit) but hitting him onstage and getting something started is. He's fast and tiny and runs right over my d-tilts and under my grabs. I'm not a great player but he really feels uniquely frustrating on stage, any tips?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You're not used to him. That's all.

Step 1: CC Dtilt
Step 2: Enjoy victory screen

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah crouchcancelling is THE natural counter to Squirtle. Its super effective!

 

[KingDozie]

Yeah crouchcancelling is THE natural counter to Squirtle. Its super effective!

Just CC everything in Project M

 

[bksbestbwoy]

Speaking of CCs, I touched on this the last time I talked about something in this thread, but how do you deal with CC spam when someone plays Roy? It's kinda frustrating when you can't rely on spaced aerials, your own crouch tilt at low percents or the first hit of Dancing Slash - Grab to approach and in the case of DS, it's even worse since committing to it is an instant CC dtilt counter from Roy into his own juggles/chases.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Spaced Dair approach might help you out there. Besides that, DashDance just outside his DTilt range, and see if you can time it well enough to bait out a DTilt and grab. Dunno if it would work regularly, Dtilt is pretty fast. You can also try spacing an FSmash as he tries to DTilt at you, I think a stutter-step FSmash tips if you're just outside Roy DTilt range.

 

[Eskelsen]

What do you guys think about the link MU?
From my experience it can be tough since link has good projectiles at his disposal.

 

[Burnsy]

Yeah crouchcancelling is THE natural counter to Squirtle. Its super effective!

Squirtle has multiple anti-CC moves; more than the average character and a lot of quickness to land grabs. If the Squirtle you are playing is getting countered by CC, then he isn't using these moves enough to discourage it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah there are always options around it but Marth has to rely a bit on it because Squirtle is incredibly hard to grab. Of course it is based on mindgames and a Squirtle working around getting CCd is fought better with an approach that counters avoiding CCs, like a down-tilt after you crouch.

 

[Icehawkz0]

So THAT's why I keep getting punished. It all makes sense now.

So how do you suppose marth approaches?

 

[alandaband]

Hi everyone - long time lurker, first time poster, and Marth-main noob.

Anyone have any tips on the Ganondorf MU? I feel like Ganon's f-tilt spartan kick and u-air beat Marth in the spacing game.

I've actually had luck batting away Mario's fireballs with a regular jab / f-tilt. Not sure how viable this is in competitive play though.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dashdancing is very good... just be aware of side-b and down-b. Bait them to throw out their move and grab afterwards. Up-air outspaces you if you are diagonally above or directly above Ganon, your fair outspaces him at his best angles. Just use your mobility advantage to the maximum, thats where you should capitalize.

 

[KingDozie]

I need help in the Mewtwo and Metaknight matchup?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Against MK, its pretty obvious you shouldn't let him get in. Dashdance works like it always does. If he goes in with an aerial, just shield, all his aerials (except for frameperfect bair) are disadvantegous on shield. Try to move on the ground more often (WD more often for example) because if you just put out a fair or a nair thats what MK waits for. Edgeguarding him is hard but you can go for hard reads (fsmash) or just take a safe counter which will work against non-sweetspotted up-b and tornado. Shield breaker is a compromise between reward and option coverage. If he wants to sweetspot with jumps, use down tilt. If you get hit, always be aware how strong CCing is against MK.

About Mewtwo:

you can powershield cancel -> counter. his nair, but the timing is really strict. Don't build on killing him when he is offstage, you normally get at least one free aerial. Dont overextend the edgeguard. DI, saving jump and mixing up side-b stalling is best when you are offstage. You can get more punish than usual off a grab, that is where you have an advantage

Note that with his nair and fair combo breakers overextending can be costly. In contrast to MK, here you can move through the air more freely. Don't be scared away from the spacing duel, just bait an up-air and punish with a fair or just go the aggro dashdance approach. Up-air juggles work good too.

 

[**Havok**]

Does anyone know the Marth vs DK match up well?

He's a pretty big target so he's prime for juggles. If he's in the air you can literally Fair to your hearts content.

Of course just like the majority of the matches, rely on your DD to bait out attacks like his Dash Attack or Nair. If he short hop Nairs you, you can uptilt as he comes in. If he's really aggressive you can shut him down by approaching with Nair, as soon as he stops then you can resume your DD into dtilt/grab game to lead into offstage shenanigans.

When he tries to recover high with his Up B you can actually full hop fair into an easy spike. If he's coming in low, you can rack up dmg with Dtilt, Fsmash or attempt a spike. Spike literally shuts down his entire recovery offstage to the point that DK agonizes being off the edge.

The things you do have to watch out for:

• IF he grabs you be prepared to DI his upthrow either Left or Right so he doesn't land his fair follow up. It's a toss up.
• His charged up B can pack a wallop, it easily out ranges our dtilt and can hit in between double fairs and sometimes through nairs
• He can edgeguard you alright with bair and then soft hit Up B
• His down B can mess with your DD
• Watch out for him grabbing you at the edge and throwing you into the stage for a stage spike. I think you can tech it like in Brawl.
• If you're on the edge be careful because he can ftilt or dtilt you out of your double jump easily. And those two moves can be annoying.

 

[KingDozie]

Man Marth vs Metaknight is so hard can anyone help me? Hes just to quick and its a pain to edgeguard him.

 

[Tee ay eye]

1. what attacks can reliably thwart squirtle's armor? i found out d-tilt doesn't work until like 63-ish... how viable is it to grab his side B?

2. what moves of sonic do you need to watch out for in neutral? like, what are his best pokes, fastest moves, shield traps, and anti-CC moves, etc? also, something i want to ask about specifically is his anti-airs vs you, especially vs your nair and fair zoning. i always try to play a very grounded marth, but furthermore, i don't really know my limits as well in pm vs melee, so i find myself getting punished in situations where i think i'm safe bc of melee.

3. how is marth's throw game different between PM and melee? i've generally been trying to just get whatever guaranteed uthrow combos i can and then trying to play the positioning game from there on to eventually find another hit, but i don't know if marth's side throws have some new hotness in PM or anything lol.... or if marth's ground traps are (relatively) stronger in PM just because a lot of the new characters have a lot more mechanics to escape juggles.

4. wtf is going on with olimar? i don't understand what this character is doing at all nor who wins the MU.

5. what's the run-down on diddy and his bananas? i recently played a diddy and i had no idea what i was doing with marth, so i had to cop out and go fox. i was respecting his bananas a lot, but after tinkering around with the character, i'm starting to think i need to apply a lot of pressure on him to not let him get any bananas out in the first place.

regardless, i will inevitably have to deal with his bananas at some point, so how do i do that? is the best course of action to catch them, shield them, WD over them (can you hit his bananas?)? and once you *are* holding onto a banana, how should you use it? throw it back at him, or just release it? in melee, marth's item throw was TERRRRRRIBLE, and i don't know if it is the same case in PM.

6. any notes about the offstage game vs MK? whenever i fight MK, i always feel like i break even or have a slight advantage in neutral, but i get heavily outpunished. i realized that i had a poor approach to comboing MK, which is why i'm trying to learn more about marth's throw followups in PM, but i also want to know about the offstage game. how good is marth's edgeguard on MK, and how good is MK's on marth?

7. also, i'm just curious..... what are marth's hardest matchups in PM? i want to use him as much as i can bc he's by-far my strongest character, but i get better mileage off my fox a lot of the time just bc you don't need as much matchup experience to thrive in PM with fox, but i know i'm going to have to put in work to overcome some new matchups, whether it's to polish my fox up or to tune my marth in to the new **** he has to deal with. i'm basically wondering if there are any characters where i'm straight up BETTER OFF learning a counterpick than i am trying to learn the MU.

 

[Hughie]

Can we get some discussion on what to do against Ness? There's a early percent f-throw CG on Ness but other than that what else?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

1. what attacks can reliably thwart squirtle's armor? i found out d-tilt doesn't work until like 63-ish... how viable is it to grab his side B?
Grabbing side-b is very viable. You can flaw it if they do a kind of dashdance with it but if you forced them into it you can f-smash%grab gamble with clear advantage on even read distribution.

2. what moves of sonic do you need to watch out for in neutral? like, what are his best pokes, fastest moves, shield traps, and anti-CC moves, etc? also, something i want to ask about specifically is his anti-airs vs you, especially vs your nair and fair zoning. i always try to play a very grounded marth, but furthermore, i don't really know my limits as well in pm vs melee, so i find myself getting punished in situations where i think i'm safe bc of melee.
All kinds of SHFFL aerials, but thats the same against most characters. Down-b and side-b are the most Sonic specific neutral game things. Sonic mostly works with fakeouts because he can't rely on his grab only and you can shield most other stuff. Grab is anti CC obviously, but fair, nair and up-tilt are also depending on percentage. Only try CC when he spins normally because his side-b kick and his down-b are fairly weak to CC. Airwise his nair has some combo breaker properties and dair can trap you when you want to air chase him with up-airs. He also has better landing than other characters. Also he has some escapes with up-b, beware of the spring projectile. Summed up, if your reads are decent you will have a slight neutral game advantage, be a bit cautious with overextending in the air and crouch cancel/shield his spin stuff.

3. how is marth's throw game different between PM and melee? i've generally been trying to just get whatever guaranteed uthrow combos i can and then trying to play the positioning game from there on to eventually find another hit, but i don't know if marth's side throws have some new hotness in PM or anything lol.... or if marth's ground traps are (relatively) stronger in PM just because a lot of the new characters have a lot more mechanics to escape juggles.
Up-throw stuff generally works, best followup being up-tilt (against the mass of the medium fastfallingness). Do f-throw more than usual against bad techrollers. Characters that are heavy and floaty have an easy time getting out of up-throw followups at mid %s (like Zard, ROB and maybe Wario), so then go for full mindgames / DI traps. Lighter floaties can be chased with full hop up air until higher mid %s, at high %s you won't get that much off a grab then. If you don't have anything guaranteed mixing up is mostly between f- and d-throw, and if you are barely out of up-throw followup percents you can also include up-throw (it seems less DI dependent, so if you clearly don't get anything with it, f- and d-throw are the better guess game moves.

4. wtf is going on with olimar? i don't understand what this character is doing at all nor who wins the MU.
Have no clear opinion on how the matchup is, probably around even. To explain the character, you need to consider basic facts first. He is easy to edgeguard, capitalize on that. His pikmins get stronger with time, don't let him camp. F-smash can mess his pikmins up because of different kb angles, also use it insread of other punishes even if it won't tipper. Olimar has great SHFFL aerials, don't just go fair spam. His grab is kind of slow, you want to grab him more instead. He has a great down smash, it may hit you out of grab or punishing you whiffing a grab or going for down-tilts. Thats the main struggle, you should go for grabs much but he will do the panic d-smash if you do it too much (you can easily punish if you see it, wait->grab, sh->nair/fair etc.). Nair is also good in that matchup because of the multiple hit interfering with his pikmins better than fair. Your grab game is pretty standard, mostly up-throws and mindgames at higher mid%s when it stops working guaranteed.

5. what's the run-down on diddy and his bananas? i recently played a diddy and i had no idea what i was doing with marth, so i had to cop out and go fox. i was respecting his bananas a lot, but after tinkering around with the character, i'm starting to think i need to apply a lot of pressure on him to not let him get any bananas out in the first place.

regardless, i will inevitably have to deal with his bananas at some point, so how do i do that? is the best course of action to catch them, shield them, WD over them (can you hit his bananas?)? and once you *are* holding onto a banana, how should you use it? throw it back at him, or just release it? in melee, marth's item throw was TERRRRRRIBLE, and i don't know if it is the same case in PM.
You need to pressure against Diddy Kong. If he doesn't get bananas out you have a fairly "normal" matchup. I will just discuss now what you should do if Diddy gets the bananas out. You are in a slightly worse matchup, but that means you can still do much. First, you can hit them away, but this will result in big frame disadvantages, not a thing you want normally. Catching them is a great choice and is possible by both press attack and WD. While Marths WD is great obviously, I find it to be more difficult to catch a thrown banana with a WD and would prefer a "normal catch then", if it lies on the ground WD is superior. If you have the banana you have many choices, I like mixing it up a bit but prefer "forward item throw"->grab for aggressive play and roll glide toss up (roll and c-stick up, probably the accurate name is an other one ^^). If they are not running in a nice perfect reflect shield also does its job. Sometimes you can also just crouch under the banana (mostly if they sh throw forward the banana) then this is a fairly good while not-commitive option. Also do mixups here, sadly there is no simple beating option but you will need mindgames but OK, thats how it is.

6. any notes about the offstage game vs MK? whenever i fight MK, i always feel like i break even or have a slight advantage in neutral, but i get heavily outpunished. i realized that i had a poor approach to comboing MK, which is why i'm trying to learn more about marth's throw followups in PM, but i also want to know about the offstage game. how good is marth's edgeguard on MK, and how good is MK's on marth?
Marths edgeguards on a MK are not that reliable. MK has shuttle loop and reverse shuttle loops, with different timings and different amounts of jumps burnt before. He can also try to sweetspot with jumps only. Try to gamble between read onstage recovery and read sweetspot recovery, f-smash and shield breaker are your main tools. I could specify more detailed later (short on time...). Grab followups are pretty good, I would prefer the up-throw ones because MK is a mid-fast faller (not quite spacie but over average)

7. also, i'm just curious..... what are marth's hardest matchups in PM? i want to use him as much as i can bc he's by-far my strongest character, but i get better mileage off my fox a lot of the time just bc you don't need as much matchup experience to thrive in PM with fox, but i know i'm going to have to put in work to overcome some new matchups, whether it's to polish my fox up or to tune my marth in to the new **** he has to deal with. i'm basically wondering if there are any characters where i'm straight up BETTER OFF learning a counterpick than i am trying to learn the MU.

You don't need to learn a new character for the bad matchups, always be aware that you will probably be better with your Marth and matchups are never that uneven. If you are confident getting really good at another character though, I would recommend it against Zard and Donkey Kong because Marth has no spacing advantage against those characters and the are heavy enough to get Marth in this "I can't combo into a kill move" issue.

That's not complete by any means but I hope it helps. If you have any other questions or would like some details, just ask

 

[DMG]

DK is doable. He has other MU's that are worse, but on a frustration scale DK + Zard are way up there

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I struggle with those most, maybe I'm just worse in those matchups than in the matchups objectively worse: Diddy and ZSS aren't good MUs too but I can deal with them better... What are the worst in your opinion?

 

[Gamegenie222]

Any nerds in here know about the Marth vs Sonic matchup and how is it? I've never played it before but I imagine that it's in Marth's favor?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

(2. what moves of sonic do you need to watch out for in neutral? like, what are his best pokes, fastest moves, shield traps, and anti-CC moves, etc? also, something i want to ask about specifically is his anti-airs vs you, especially vs your nair and fair zoning. i always try to play a very grounded marth, but furthermore, i don't really know my limits as well in pm vs melee, so i find myself getting punished in situations where i think i'm safe bc of melee.)
All kinds of SHFFL aerials, but thats the same against most characters. Down-b and side-b are the most Sonic specific neutral game things. Sonic mostly works with fakeouts because he can't rely on his grab only and you can shield most other stuff. Grab is anti CC obviously, but fair, nair and up-tilt are also depending on percentage. Only try CC when he spins normally because his side-b kick and his down-b are fairly weak to CC. Airwise his nair has some combo breaker properties and dair can trap you when you want to air chase him with up-airs. He also has better landing than other characters. Also he has some escapes with up-b, beware of the spring projectile. Summed up, if your reads are decent you will have a slight neutral game advantage, be a bit cautious with overextending in the air and crouch cancel/shield his spin stuff.

This are the tips I gave so far, MU is in Marth's favor, probably around 65-35, because Marrh is outranging Sonic quite significantly and Sonic has no safe way to approach if Marth's sword walls him out. It is by no means free though, a few little tricks and fakeouts and Sonic is in and combos you hard.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Actually all of that but you answered some of my questions actually lol,