Marth Matchup thread.

[CyberZixx]

Let's talk about Ivysaur... I don't like this MU at all. Razor leaf covers the mid range very well where Marth excels. She has good range on Aerials to combat you. She has good air control with Uair and Dair so you can't juggle her that well. I can combo her pretty well at low percentages but nothing amazing. She edge guards you pretty hard, and I can't ever edge guard with out over extending myself on a read: DJ out and hitting her out of her jump. In fact, I feel like any time Ivy feels pressures she can just retreat to the ledge and I can't do much about it... Any advice?

I have been working on figuring out this match up and got some notes.
Most important thing to deal with is her razor leafs. I like stay at a distance where I can punish razor leaf on reaction but far enough where I won't get fair'ed all day. If ivy does a low leaf you can either jump over and fair/nair/maybe even grab depending. You could also dtilt it to clash and act out of the ISA frames to continue pressure. High leafs can be dtilted and then you have advantage to what you wish with.

Jugggling ivy is hard so I try to hit juggle her from the low to mid precents because one she goes too high for it to be a true combo, it gets hard to juggle her as she had those delay options. With patience, baiting it is still possible of course.

Off the stage I find hitting a sweetspot makes it harder for ivy to follow up, so I always go for that, but it's a bad situation for sure. When ivy is off stage I always grab edge if she tethers to it I will either jump up and try and punish her getting or stay on and wait for her to have to pop over me and punish. I have more success with the first method. When she is far away from stage will want to do dair movement and such you can drop off and tipper bair her for the kill.

I hope that helps.

 

[KariteSama]

I play Ivy and it always pisses me off when people sit in their shield. I like to approach by following up a razor leaf with either a n-air, f-air, or dash attack (sometimes). Shielding her attacks usually gives time to follow up especially with Marth's grab range. Once you get a grab you have to keep pressure on her in the air with f-air. Knock her of stage rather than trying to juggle. Seed bomb makes getting down a breeze when people try to juggle me. She doesn't have a lot of options after tethering and most of them are punishable. I like to ledge hop razor leaf but if you shield you can just shield grab throw. You have to give her some space and once she throws out an attack wave-dash in for an attack or grab. Watch out for n-air. I think it's one of the better aerials in the game.

 

[axiom1]

Why don't you follow up a razor leaf with a (JC) grab? I get owned pretty hard by that. The razor leaf keeps me locked in place while shielding, allowing an easy grab if timed right.

Not sure what options Ivy has off of a grab against Marth, but its still annoying. This is more of a problem when I play as Ganon, where Ivy can do upthrow -> up-B shenanigans.

 

[KariteSama]

Down throw combos decently depending on di. around 40% it can combo into a sweet spot up b though i think you can di out. as for a grab it only works if the opponent is really close to you when they shield otherwise i cant seem to get to them quickly enough. they can usually get an oos aerial or something before i can grab.

 

[axiom1]

Ok, I'm obviously too slow then. I'll start trying OoS aerials then. I usually do the safe option of just rolling back after the razor leaf, but it doesn't really give me an opportunity to counterattack. I bet jumping OoS as Ganon and punishing the whiffed grab with dair could work pretty well. Perhaps Marth's fair could stuff it? I feel like Ivy's throw outranges it lol, but maybe that's just me being bitter.

And yeah I was probably thinking of dthrow -> up-B, not uthrow -> up-B. Would you DI towards or away from Ivy to get out of it? That is, assuming he is facing left and does dthrow, do you DI left or right?

 

[KariteSama]

I think DI away. I'm not 100% but I'm pretty sure. And ya the key is to punish hard. If you can avoid getting caught in shield at all it's best by jumping over the leaf using platforms and stuff. I'm pretty sure ganon dair would work. I hate fighting Ganon. Always and forever. Doesn't matter what character I use. I've gotten beat by some terrible Ganon's....

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I would say Pit is at LEAST a decent counter to Marth for three reasons:
1. Pit's ability to spam arrows allows him to keep Marth on the back foot.
2. Pit can easily (and VERY quickly) close the distance if a predictable Marth gives him an opening. At point-blank range, Pit can have his way with Marth.
3. Pit has some AMAZING ways to gimp players offstage, which is bad news for Marth.

 

[zzzzzzzzzz]

how do i punish ivysaur ftilt?

 

[FlashingFire]

Ivy's ftilt is so safe, it's kind of ridiculous.

Anyway, I main Snake and have a lot of trouble with my friend's Ivysaur, so one time when we were playing I just rotated through all the characters I knew how to play at least decently. Marth was one of the few characters I used that didn't seem to be inherently disadvantaged in the MU. Between Fthrow chains and Fair juggling and Marth's superior mobility overall, he does pretty well against Ivy imo. Once in the air, Ivy can't easily combo break, especially if you space yourself outside of her Nair range.

It's still a hard matchup because Ivysaur is a general pain in the butt in 2.6, but in 3.0 I hear she's being slightly nerfed.

 

[Mr.Random]

I think Mario actually beats Marth 55-45. His projectiles are faster and Mario can get in better than Marth can I believe. I don't think the MU is anywhere near impossible but the two main advantages Mario has is a projectile and really easy gimps on Marth.

 

[DMG]

How does Mario get in easier? He has less range, shorter grab range, slower dash/run speed, etc

 

[Deleted member]

mario can usually just block marth's **** because marth's grab are substantially less threatening in this game. marth has worse MUs across the board than people give him.

 

[Mr.Random]

mario can usually just block marth's **** because marth's grab are substantially less threatening in this game. marth has worse MUs across the board than people give him.

Precisely. Mario can just camp Marth also. If Mario angles his fireballs correctly then Marth can't do anything. Plus while Marth is distracted trying to swat away fireballs I can go in unless he wants to take 8 or 16 percent. Also Mario can easily approach from above because up tilt and up air have noticeable endlag.

 

[Deleted member]

ehh i wouldn't go that far, as soon as you see mario jump nowhere close to you for fireball it's an invitation to fair him to ****. the MU isn't bad either way, i just think that people overrate marth pretty hard in this game when tbh he's not that good.

 

[KariteSama]

I think marth is such an established character that people just know how to use him better than a lot of the cast. I feel like it's more an issue of familiarity than actual matchups. That being said mario always bothers me when I play marth. I have so much trouble finding a way through his fireballs.

 

[Deleted member]

I think marth is such an established character that people just know how to use him better than a lot of the cast. I feel like it's more an issue of familiarity than actual matchups. That being said mario always bothers me when I play marth. I have so much trouble finding a way through his fireballs.

you should come over and play us in shippensburg. we do some good marth hate over here cause everyone plays my gay ass all the time lol

 

[Xinc]

How is the matchup for Mewtwo? That Nair seems pretty hard to get into.

In regards to Mario/Marth, I see it as a pretty close matchup. Marth and Mario's both got a lot of good stuff, but Marth seems to be prone to getting hit by fireballs.

 

[DMG]

I have no idea, but I would lean towards Marth having an easier time than M2

 

[KingJigglypuff]

Excuse the bump, but I have a Marth counter related question.

I have a friend who mains Marth.

Though he mainly spams Forward Smash and Counter.

Which characters would be good counters for that?

If this question is in the wrong thread, then I apologize.

 

[UMR | donmk]

Excuse the bump, but I have a Marth counter related question.

I have a friend who mains Marth.

Though he mainly spams Forward Smash and Counter.

Which characters would be good counters for that?

If this question is in the wrong thread, then I apologize.

If all he's doing is waiting for you to approach and then f-smashing / countering, try Samus. Missiles are very annoying for Marths that don't approach, and her grab is good against counter-happy Marths. Other option is Sheik, because Marth has a really hard time with Sheik in general.

However, this strategy only works while he is using this style of Marth. If you want to be able to beat him consistently, I suggest doing the following:

1. Pick a main (if you don't have one already). Play this character (almost) exclusively. This will help you beat most characters, not just Marth. If you try having a counter-pick for every character in the game, you end up dividing your time (and skill) between these characters. It is better to focus on one character and learn all the match ups for that character.

2. When you have your main, play matches against his Marth. Try different things, learn what works etc. My experience from this is playing against my friend's Ike with Marth in 2.1 (back when Ike was OP). I quickly learned that my normal play was useless (Ike would outrange and out damage me) and as a result my baiting and tech-reading game developed really well.

3. If you really can't figure out a counter to something he is doing, post here again, mention what character you are using, what he is doing that you can seem to be able to deal with and (if possible) video of a match demonstrating the situation. The more detail you include, the more likely it is we can help. A lot of the time, people are looking for ways to deal with a situation which is actually the result of the opponent luring them into a bad position. We might not be able to help you in respect of "what do I do when (situation)" but rather we can help with "How do I avoid (situation)"

Hope this helped somewhat...

 

[KingJigglypuff]

If all he's doing is waiting for you to approach and then f-smashing / countering, try Samus. Missiles are very annoying for Marths that don't approach, and her grab is good against counter-happy Marths. Other option is Sheik, because Marth has a really hard time with Sheik in general.

However, this strategy only works while he is using this style of Marth. If you want to be able to beat him consistently, I suggest doing the following:

1. Pick a main (if you don't have one already). Play this character (almost) exclusively. This will help you beat most characters, not just Marth. If you try having a counter-pick for every character in the game, you end up dividing your time (and skill) between these characters. It is better to focus on one character and learn all the match ups for that character.

2. When you have your main, play matches against his Marth. Try different things, learn what works etc. My experience from this is playing against my friend's Ike with Marth in 2.1 (back when Ike was OP). I quickly learned that my normal play was useless (Ike would outrange and out damage me) and as a result my baiting and tech-reading game developed really well.

3. If you really can't figure out a counter to something he is doing, post here again, mention what character you are using, what he is doing that you can seem to be able to deal with and (if possible) video of a match demonstrating the situation. The more detail you include, the more likely it is we can help. A lot of the time, people are looking for ways to deal with a situation which is actually the result of the opponent luring them into a bad position. We might not be able to help you in respect of "what do I do when (situation)" but rather we can help with "How do I avoid (situation)"

Hope this helped somewhat...

Thanks for the tips.

I'll see what I can do with the characters I want to main.

My possible mains I would like would be Charizard, Donkey Kong, Mewtwo, and possibly Lucario.

 

[UMR | donmk]

I personally don't have much experience playing against most of those characters. I do know that once Lucario gets inside Marth's range, he can pretty much have his way with him for the rest of the stock, or at least he could in 2.6.

If you have trouble while using one of those characters, the best place to go would be that character's forum and ask for help with the marth matchup there. There are often things that specific characters look for that are generally known only to players of that character.

Lastly, as long as you are using a character you enjoy, you'll generally find that you improve almost without realising it. When I picked up marth for the first time, I remember being mesmerised by his fluidity. I improved so much more in those few months than ever before because I genuinely had fun training and playing. I think that as long as you're playing a character you enjoy, improvement comes naturally, both in general and in specific matchups.

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

So about that peach match up, what do I do. I don't know whether u should stay on the ground and snipe floats with up/ftilt or if I should rely on fair camping.

How do you guys get out of FC pressure? Those Nair's keep hitting me out of my WD OOS, I'm going to start trying up b OOS or buffered rolls.

And those random times they get a beam sword. The ftilt covers the whole damn stage.

 

[Deleted member]

when she does something, swat it.

don't swat before she does something.

if she won't do anything, go ><><><><><><><> until she does something, then grab her and throw her up.

when she comes down, she'll do something, THEN you can swat it.

/MU

 

[Gamegenie222]

So how do you deal with Charizard as Marth? Marth along with Falco are my melee mains and this character gives me fits and dont know what to do in this MU expect usual space your moves out?

 

[DMG]

Marth loses to Zard. I would highly recommend Falco or Fox instead. Basically imagine it like DK, except much easier to keep Marth in the air and usually better non grab punishes.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I guess that works my Falco also got bopped by Charizard cause I dont know the MU and it's weird with all of the stuff Charizard has so I will definitely look more into it.

 

[Deleted member]

Marth loses to Zard. I would highly recommend Falco or Fox instead. Basically imagine it like DK, except much easier to keep Marth in the air and usually better non grab punishes.

why does marth lose to charizard? not that i agree or disagree at this point, i'm jut curious on your point of view.

 

[DMG]

Charizard has big lingering hitboxes and his own nasty grab range to dissuade any forceful grab attemps, which is bad for us because aerial approaches are completely out of the question for 90% of the MU (which is sort of usual for Marth since air is bad, but it's literally going to be impossible). As far as outright range in all areas, Zard competes or beats us in many areas. It's not as disjointed as our range since he tends to use his body obviously, but it's still an odd feeling when Marth can be cleanly outranged or challenged so well on range. He has a very good dash/run speed, and a decent DD. He can run around and threaten to grab/get closer just like Marth or Fox or someone in that vein. Spacing options in neutral feel much less effective, and you need to be balls precise AND not have that option CC'd or else you will get boned.


The best way I can sum it up, is that he's a slightly better version of DK as far as specifically beating Marth goes. He covers in front of his body much better, a more variable recovery, still nasty juggle traps, etc. Also has a decently respectable OOS game with Upb and Usmash. Until he is competely above us in the air, we don't have many combo options. Landing grabs does not guarantee much due to his heavy weight. Due to his multi jumps, if you ever get launched, you rarely can use your DJ or Side B in a smart way to change up how you fall down. He's just gonna fly up and Nair you anyways etc

(I'm kind of everywhere on the MU aspects, but it's hard. It's a hard MU where the other character doesn't have glaring flaws for Marth to exploit, which leads to an endurance match vs a big/heavy character that won't die early but can kill you normally. Not only that, but this big character is highly capable and makes your character feel less special/over the top)


Marth has it easy though. Playing Falcon vs Zard is even harder, because you legit lose to any range option he picks, get heavily outranged on grab, Dthrow tech chase is painful with Falcon's crap techs, it's rough. Zard ain't nothing to mess with, and I will go Fox vs any serious Zard.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Can someone advice me on the Wario match-up? How good or bad is it for Marth, what sort of technology Marth has on him?

 

[Deleted member]

marth bodies the shit out of wario. like marth is probably wario's worst MU. wait till he does something and swing at it, it's seriously that easy.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I wasn't having too much trouble with it, but I'm a relative scrub and wanted some insight. I'll just polish my game up then.

 

[Bukowski On Ice]

I've been testing out some tricks with Marth and here's what I've found on Mario.

1. You can chain grab 2 f-throws into f-smash for free. You can do upto 4 f-throws if they don't up-b. Also if you're near the edge, you can substitute the f-smash for a d-air, if you're fast enough. This was it's easier to get mario off stage, where Marth has the advantage.

2. Counter his up-b to the ledge. D-air is much more difficult to land. The best you can do with d-air is trade if you have insanely good timing, but counter will push him away from the ledge and will give you time to ledge hog.

3. This was stated earlier but Mario cannot approach safely without fireballs, so jab them. If he can't approach, he'll try to come in with dash attack or spaced f-airs, both of which you can jump f-air or n-air.

4. Grabs are super important. When Mario is under you (like most characters) you can juggle him and put THE FEAR OF MARTH into his soul.

This is how I handle the MU and it works really well. You just have to establish stage control and make your Mario play more defensively so that you can get grabs.

-buk

 

[Bedlington]

So anyone tell me about the MU with Snake? My friend mains him and everytime we play he destroys me. (He uses the tranquilizer and plants C4 to kill whenever I approach 100%)

 

[5-oNe]

So anyone tell me about the MU with Snake? My friend mains him and everytime we play he destroys me. (He uses the tranquilizer and plants C4 to kill whenever I approach 100%)

u just have to kinda be ready for it.he only gets 3 per stock then he has to reload.so that means u need to shield all 3 of them or atleast be in the air because the only time it puts you to sleep is if you are hit without your shield and on the ground.also u can counter the c4 when it explodes. so if you think he is about to blow u up which tends to usually be after uair or uthrow. dont even worry about di just start wigglin those control sticks to break out of hit stun so u can counter. other than that be patient because marth can handle snake pretty easily when u get in. i would say that matchup is about 60-40 or 65-35 in marths favor

 

[DJ _ICE]

Get up in Snake's face and he'll have a much harder time dealing with you. Always stay aware at higher percentages when he might randomly shoot you. If he's recovering offstage with the cypher, you probably can spike him out relatively easily. Pretty much just pressure him, don't let up so he can't set up traps on the stage

 

["Shion"]

Good ways to deal with Shiek?

I was having trouble earlier yesterday with a Shiek that had some nice combos into volleyball spike..

Mainly I dunno how to DI out of her grabs or tilts that follow up to the volleyball hit.

 

[CyberZixx]

Any thoughts on the lucario match up? Fighting this character is super weird. Also, how on earth does one edge guard him?

 

[Amazerommu]

Good ways to deal with Shiek?

I was having trouble earlier yesterday with a Shiek that had some nice combos into volleyball spike..

Mainly I dunno how to DI out of her grabs or tilts that follow up to the volleyball hit.

I usually DI down and away. But if you manage to not DI correctly... don't continue to DI that way when she hits you with that purse snatch... Bad things will occur...

Any thoughts on the lucario match up? Fighting this character is super weird. Also, how on earth does one edge guard him?

You can jump out there and counter his Up B... That's about the only thing I've been able to come up with for his recovery... and it's not even all that reliable. Tippers are iffy... Tilts are iffy. Pretty much everything is iffy against Lucario's recovery haha.

 

[NonSequtur]

Lucario has horrible end-lag, so it's a pretty basic bait and punish sort of neutral. After that he's a good combo weight so just smack him around. Edgeguard wise I use shield breaker over and over until they die.