Marth DOES NOT counter Peach

[Razor]

Okay, so it took me a few years to figure it out, but marth does NOT counter peach. me and two other friends discussed it in depth and i'm convinced. the match up is either 50-50 or 55-45 in marth's favor. it's not SOO bad where marth counters peach. You can say marth might have a slight advantage, but that doesn't equal counter. here's why.

-marth's f-throw can be di'ed out of. it really can be. nearly every character can do it. i do marth ditto's all the time and even marth can di out of another marth's throw. it's more than possible with peach as well. i di out of the f-throw and spot dodge often. sometimes i miss it, sure, but it's possible.

-the f-throw to f-smash combo is easy to di out of too.

-marth is a horizontal killer. yes, the up-tilt can kill peach, but not like an upsmash from fox. marth is primarily a horizontal killer(most chars are). Obviously, peach can survive for a long time.

-the turnips affect marth more than the rest of the top tier characters. take fox and falco. they reflect or spam their own shiite. sheik has her needles and can crouch reeeeaaaally low. plus sheik's recovery has invincibility frames. turnips are the easiest part of the marth vs peach matchup--every peach user knows that. the turnips against marth's recovery are awesome too.

-throws. i'm surprised cort thinks grabs aren't useful against marth. against my training partner, i down-throw jab and downsmash all the time. if they di up, i just upsmash. it's pretty easy to get at least 1 jab or another hit. sometimes they di OUT of the jab, but i can still get a d-smash most of the time. plus, the f-throw at high percents is amazing. marth's recovery sucks going horizontally.

-downsmash leanding to a stage spike. i swear, it happens 1/3 of the time i try it. i can't say it works for everyone or all the time, but it's fairly common.


the only moves you CANNOT beat are marths forward air, up air, and up tilt(IMO). the other moves you have options, you'll clank, or simply don't hit that often. marth's tipper, d-tilt, b-air, and his spike are good, but very avoidable.


final stuff: marth is tough, sure, but he's the 2nd best character in the game. the combo's he can do on peach happen to everyone. you can't say that marth specifically owns ONLY peach. it's not true. look at fox vs marth. marth can edge guard fox 100000 times worse than peach, but that's a very even matchup. According to m2k, it's actually in fox's slight favor. i actually think peaches have trouble with marth bc so many HIGHLY skilled players use marth. this is mostly my opinion, but i'd like to hear what ppl will say.

 

[CanISmash]

lies.
/10 characters

 

[otg]

-marth's f-throw can be di'ed out of. it really can be. nearly every character can do it. i do marth ditto's all the time and even marth can di out of another marth's throw. it's more than possible with peach as well. i di out of the f-throw and spot dodge often. sometimes i miss it, sure, but it's possible.

-the f-throw to f-smash combo is easy to di out of too.

-marth is a horizontal killer. yes, the up-tilt can kill peach, but not like an upsmash from fox. marth is primarily a horizontal killer(most chars are). Obviously, peach can survive for a long time.

-downsmash leanding to a stage spike. i swear, it happens 1/3 of the time i try it. i can't say it works for everyone or all the time, but it's fairly common.


the only moves you CANNOT beat are marths forward air, up air, and up tilt(IMO). the other moves you have options, you'll clank, or simply don't hit that often. marth's tipper, d-tilt, b-air, and his spike are good, but very avoidable.

I just took some of my favorites from your list. Uh... no dude lol. No.

 

[milkieee]

omg imo marth IS a peach counter at all, even if I not play NTSC, in PAL it's a counter too !
the lack of the Spike doesn't mean that much, tho !

Basicly I think, that the long range of his sword steals peach the options out of any form of floating especially the groundfloat, but even the recovery float, because it's not fast enough !!

The only thing I, as a copetitive german smasher, can do against marths is to throw my turnips on his atacks to punish the lag ..
and take a look at marths equip in that matchup .. humm he has got an overranged sword, ****, he's got overranged grab ??
**** he MUST be a couter in this case !!

 

[Matux]

in my opinion there exist no counters in melee, I cant describe it well, but peach have marth killer tools too, just z-drop the turnip on the edge and hang on. marth gets hit by the turnip looses height and tries again to recover but you already grabbed the edge. I told it a bit rough (don't know if I can say that in english).



players cant handle the great range of marth's sword, but marth cant handle turnip spamming.



nevertheless, hes good against peach

 

[Mew2King]

i think marth has a pretty good/large advantage in the matchup

also sheik is the best, then fox, then marth. Marth is definitely 3rd. Most educated people will tell you that. Also, if Marth vs Fox had to be on one side's favor, then Fox has the advantage at really high level, but he has to be playing really well technically. Marth's just easier to be consistent. I basically main all 3 characters equally now though, as anyone from EC who knows anything will tell you.

if Peach expects Marth to forward throw and DIs away or down/away, Marth can just down throw Peach then do Fair combos, Nair, or F smash. You don't need to be generic like most dumb (or just "most") people are.

 

[NJzFinest]

i actually think peaches have trouble with marth bc so many HIGHLY skilled players use marth.

You mean only M2K and Azen?

 

[milkieee]

yeah matux, that little trick is something to edgeguard a marth very well ^^
Luma'd teach it to me one year ago I guess, but like M2K said, there r advantages and there r counter-characters ^^

And there r many marths who can handle turnip-spam ^^
I played many peach - marths against Ice's marth 2 weeks ago, when he went to berlin and
we played really intense, u may needa play Ice's marth to understand which level it is ^^
in my opinion it's one of the best, maybe the best marth in germany at all ^^
and I'm one of the best peaches in germany, I've beaten AE.s and de_glorys Fox, so I have to be tho xD
what I want to say is, that I know how to handle a marth with peach, I really know (I 2stocked JDs Marth for example) and Ice just owned me, he told me after that, that my peach had improoved very much, but he knows to couter any move I do, that shall mean his marth counters peach aight ??

for comparison, I've beaten his Falco(I've got a falco-weakness at all, and he's one of the best, if not the best falco in germany at all ^^)

 

[slikvik]

I've beaten a few of excellent marths in melee such as Fullmetal, Lordknight. This past weekend azen only beat me 2-1 in melee...but its still a counter. If the marth doesn't mess up, there's literally nothing you can do to counter him

 

[exarch]

if Peach expects Marth to forward throw and DIs away or down/away, Marth can just down throw Peach then do Fair combos, Nair, or F smash. You don't need to be generic like most dumb (or just "most") people are.

I thought down DI was the best when marth grabs a floaty, this leads to a DI awaying affect for the floaty regardless of the direction he throws (down or forward).
But it doesn't stop low percentage fthrow CG's, or low% fairs, or higher percents fthrow to dash attack, from what I know. Please feel free to correct me.

Also the best style of peach I've found against marth is a hyper aggressive one, which generally forces marth to make mistakes (which is the only way peach gets to hit marth with something besides a turnip or dash attack).

To address the topic of the thread though: obvious troll is obvious.

 

[Pink Shinobi]

the match up is pretty bad, but not a counter. imo

 

[slikvik]

the match up is pretty bad, but not a counter. imo

a counter is a bad match-up...

 

[milkieee]

a counter is a bad match-up...

thats what I just wanted to say ^^

 

[VA]

i think marth has a pretty good/large advantage in the matchup

also sheik is the best, then fox, then marth. Marth is definitely 3rd. Most educated people will tell you that. Also, if Marth vs Fox had to be on one side's favor, then Fox has the advantage at really high level, but he has to be playing really well technically. Marth's just easier to be consistent. I basically main all 3 characters equally now though, as anyone from EC who knows anything will tell you.

if Peach expects Marth to forward throw and DIs away or down/away, Marth can just down throw Peach then do Fair combos, Nair, or F smash. You don't need to be generic like most dumb (or just "most") people are.

The use of the word educated in that context is out of place. I read your msn discussion with Umbreon about Sheik being #1 and I couldn't disagree more. Using Europe and Japan as examples isn't relevant at all because you're tier doesn't reflect our meta game, we have our own tier list where sheik dominants largely because of version differences but partially due to play styles.

Also Peach is countered by Marth. Why has no one mentioned Marths hideous advantage of range? Peach struggles to get inside Marth who can space her out and keep her at a distance and she has virtually no approach. Grabs aren't very useful as they are really hard to get in and really you can't do a lot with them. If you play against a really good Marth it is always an uphill battle, however without getting to that level of play match ups don't really matter so much, it just depends who knows it better.

 

[milkieee]

Also Peach is countered by Marth. Why has no one mentioned Marths hideous advantage of range? Peach struggles to get inside Marth who can space her out and keep her at a distance and she has virtually no approach. Grabs aren't very useful as they are really hard to get in and really you can't do a lot with them. If you play against a really good Marth it is always an uphill battle, however without getting to that level of play match ups don't really matter so much, it just depends who knows it better.

thats what I'm allways talkin' about
the ****ing range of any of marths atacks destroy many options of peach tho
on a really high level, it doesn't mean that much tho, but it's still a bad matchup, wether u know how to play the matchup or u don't ..

If u know ur matchup AND ur opponent, u CAN win as a peach, but it's much harder than nearly any other character.
maybe fox CAN be harder, or as hard as marth is

 

[VA]

Meh, I think Fox is way easier for Peach.

What i mean is if the match up is like m2k marth vs cort peach, there is little cort can actually do, because m2k knows all the options and can outspace peach to ****, there is nothing cort can do in actuality.

Lower down the scale Armada can beat Masashi because Armada is really good at the match up and knows it better than Masashi, can space better and win.

 

[milkieee]

IMO fox is easier too, I play much better against foxes ^^

Is there any actual set cort - m2k ??
I'd love to watch this, cause I can't say if m2k'd destroy cort ^^
and if, this might be a reason for marth beeing a peach-counter

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

The use of the word educated in that context is out of place. I read your msn discussion with Umbreon about Sheik being #1 and I couldn't disagree more. Using Europe and Japan as examples isn't relevant at all because you're tier doesn't reflect our meta game, we have our own tier list where sheik dominants largely because of version differences but partially due to play styles.

thats so relevant to this thread

on topic: dsmash stage spike against marth? ****, what an amazing broken strat, i've never thought of that, and neither has anyone else. No di, smash di, teching or ANYTHING can be done by the marth to escape this amazing set-up. works especially well on marth. it truly makes marth vs peach a more even matchup, and arguably even in peach's favor
all because of the dsmash stagespike
OP is a genious

 

[VA]

thats so relevant to this thread

on topic: dsmash stage spike against marth? ****, what an amazing broken strat, i've never thought of that, and neither has anyone else. No di, smash di, teching or ANYTHING can be done by the marth to escape this amazing set-up. works especially well on marth. it truly makes marth vs peach a more even matchup, and arguably even in peach's favor
all because of the dsmash stagespike
OP is a genious

Get out troll.

I was writing a very brief response to m2k calling sheik #1. Then I wrote my point about this thread. TROLL GTFO.

 

[slikvik]

I'd love to watch this, cause I can't say if m2k'd destroy cort ^^
and if, this might be a reason for marth being a peach-counter

This results in utter **** if cort uses peach

edit: everyone go vote and stuff

 

[LumpyCPU...]

no solid marth should lose to a peach of equal or lesser skill.
i know that's not easy to determine or back up, but i really believe that.
marth's not as hard as a legit fox IMO, but it's close.

this sounds really generic, but marth just has to fair the turnips and not get too close.
SPACING WINS THIS MATCH FOR MARTH
as prominent as this topic comes up, i thought we'd all be on the same page by now.

assuming we're talking about a solid marth who doesn't slip up with scrub mistakes (with l-cancels or spacing)
fthrows and fthrow > fsmash can be di'd out of but that's lower level stuff.
and stage spiking a marth with the downsmash is a bad idea imo.
turnip sniping and turnip drop edgehog are the really 'depended on' edge guards against marth.
turnip spam and dash attack are all you can safely start combos off with on marth.
(and uair or upB if he's on a plat)
and his fair is practically a combo breaker.

not saying peach can't beat marth.
only saying I THINK on average or higher levels of play with equal or close players, marth should be winning the set.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

This results in utter **** if cort uses peach

edit: everyone go vote and stuff

i'm pretty sure they have 2 tourney sets up. not sure though.


edit: sorry for double post. mah baad.

 

[slikvik]

i'm pretty sure they have 2 tourney sets up. not sure though.


edit: sorry for double post. mah baad.

yea, they've played alot not just in tourney. m2k told me that he has 2-4 stocks every single peach player he's played(vidjo, cort, etc). I've also played him quite a bit. It's impossible...although it did get me crazy experience in the match-up

 

[Jx31]

IMO fox is easier too, I play much better against foxes ^^

Is there any actual set cort - m2k ??
I'd love to watch this, cause I can't say if m2k'd destroy cort ^^
and if, this might be a reason for marth beeing a peach-counter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMMkL5A1ITs Here you go

 

[milkieee]

**** thank you !
This is **** **** !!
oh my god ^^

which tournament is this ??

btw. does anyone think, that someone else, let's say armada, would play better vs. M2K ??

 

[err]

nah. we're talkin about America here. bunch of young people with waaayyy too much time on their hands and little to no ambition

(edit i'm about to get raaaaaaaaaped)

 

[Deleted member]

this is peach's worst match by far. at least fox/sheik need reasonable amount of skill to beat peach.

 

[milkieee]

xDD
did u forget that only asian people don't have a soul ?? xDDD
just stop off topic now'd be good tho ^^

so what, marth counters peach aight ?? ^^

 

[Razor]

thanks for the responses. most of them were helpful and i wanted to hear what peach players had to say.

first of all, vanityangel had some good points on spacing. when i first started, i used doc and mario, no range. i was never good at spacing, but at this point i'm used to marth's massive range. it doesn't matter what char i use, i still feel the range and priority. to single out peach is unfair, imo. If you want to think marth's range ONLY works against peach, then you're vastly mistaken.

second, addressing m2k, if you're implying i'm generic, uneducated, or plain dumb, then that's uncool. i stated my points and opinions. attack what i said, not me. also, i said marth is the 2nd best because that's his position on the tier list. your list is good, but not official. sorry.

another thing about m2k, the set vs cort doesn't mean squat. in this more recent match against mk's sheik cort gets *****. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McFSQP6DgAs i don't consider sheik a peach counter at all. that's a very even matchup. it's WAAY more accurate to say that m2k counters cort.

i still feel like marth vs peach is even. i especially like how peach can wear down marth psychologically. an impatient marth is the easiest kind to beat.

my personal bad matchups are against cap falcon and fox. against captain, it should be an even matchup and it really depends on the opponent. a technical and experienced fox is really hard to beat as well. that being said, we shouldn't use personal bias only, myself included.

 

[Samochan]

it's WAAY more accurate to say that m2k counters cort.

Then why m2k 4 stocked pc chris's peach as well, even though he uses more turnips that are good vs marth and so on? >_>

I only hope that you're not influencing the opinions of the new inexperienced peach players that peach might actually be an even matchup vs marth. It is completely ludicrous notion and your ideas of taking down marth are the talks of an unexperienced player vs even more unexperienced player.

1. Marth kills peach with tipper on any stage anywhere at around 110-120% latest, 20% earliest on yoshi edge even. And he comboes from his attacks and fthrows and platform tips. I'm quite sure that m2k, the frame perfect marth genious also knows what he's talking about.

2. Marth can swat away turnips like flies with his disjointed hitboxes and aerials, unless it's a stitchface (which doesn't count really, too powerful to be swatted away). Marth can also us turnips to recover himself back to stage as he swats em and hits them with up b that sends him toward stage then. He can also simply avoid turnips with proper spacing, good DI beforehand, thinking and simply z-grabbing it from airborne. >_>

3. Dthrow does not combo marth into anything besides some occasional dash attacks perhaps (which can be countered) and at 0% uptilt maybe. One slap just sets up for marth to fair you or counter or whatever and if it doesn't, they need to work on their reaction speed and DI (like di behind peach, peach has hard time slapping behidn her back for instance). Fthrow is good against everyone... starting from 160% where you've already lost since in order to win against marth you need to take advantage of all his mistakes and definitely KO him before he ever reaches that point since you get killed twice the speed he normally does. >_>

4. Up b can be sweetspotted from further away and marth can tech the dsmash, simple as that. It's also very very lucky shot, up b has tons of priority and range anyway and marth can just delay it with one more forward b if he expects an edgeguard like that.

5. IIRC, you can't clank when airborne and marth can outrange, outprioritise and outmaneuver every single one of peach's ground moves, except for upsmash when marth comes from above and drops right down on it dumbly. >_> Fsmash also beats everything peach has, while fair can be cc'ed if the marth doesn't tipper it and rising fair that goes into double fair can be shielded and naired out of shield as well, lol.

6. Do not underestimate the power of tippered dtilt that forces you to either roll away or try and get the best of marth in lucky maneuver of rolling behind him, which is already tough due to tipper dtilts knockback and iasa-frames. Not forgetting that any counterattack (like float cancelled aerials) lead to you getting fsmashed and cc dsmash is not easy to time well and doesn't hit at all if marth spaces well. >_>


Just pointing out some obvious flaws on your "peach goes even with marth" theory. <_<

 

[LumpyCPU...]

this is peach's worst match by far. at least fox/sheik need reasonable amount of skill to beat peach.

wow... um...
i think it's about the same.
fox can beat peach easier, but fox gets punished more for a slip up. idk. they both suck as peach lol

 

[Razor]

^-to samochan

m2k 4 stocking pc chris means nothing either. his peach might be good, but i was addressing a completely different point. i'm simply saying that m2k ***** cort. in fact, m2k ***** nearly everyone so using him as an argument leads to nothing. his skill is way beyond everyone so how can comparing m2k's marth be fair? i'm convinced if mew2king actually used mew2 he'd still win tournies.


1. Marth kills peach with tipper on any stage anywhere at around 110-120% latest, 20% earliest on yoshi edge even.

??? what's your point? marth can kill anyone at those percentages.


2. Marth can swat away turnips like flies with his disjointed hitboxes and aerials

that may be true, but the turnip game against marth is great. i think it's a mental issue with marths. they feel like they can outspace the turnips and still get hit. i love it and it works. on paper, it might look good, but peach can still camp out marth.


3. Dthrow does not combo marth into anything besides some occasional dash attacks

dthrow to jab works which can lead to another grab or attack. sometimes they di out of the jab, but if they di UP, then that's an easy upsmash. not that complicated. the reason i said f-throw is awesome bc marth has a bad horizontal recovery. am i wrong?

and i clearly said the dsmash stage spike doesn't happen that often. i just mentioned it because every peach has done it at least once.


you can't clank when airborne and marth can outrange, outprioritise and outmaneuver every single one of peach's ground moves, except for upsmash when marth comes from above and drops right down on it dumbly.


all right, i addressed this earlier. marth outranges EVERYONE. i would argue he outranges ganon too but that's a fairly close matchup as well. yes, marth is amazing, i agree but you act as if peach has NOTHING on marth. your description is a **** matchup, not a counter. if you want, you explain to me what advantages peach has. according to your description, peach can't even touch marth.

 

[VA]

No, marth severely outranges peach, limiting her approach to almost nothing. what can peach approach with? Yes Marth outranges other characters too, but fox has lasers as does falco and sheik gets inside him like a pedophile would with a 9 year old.

Peach cannot get inside a Marth with good spacing. It doesn't work. /end

 

[IrArby]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a counter character in general seeded lower in the tier list than the character he/she counters? Like no one calls Marth a Y. Link counter even though he ***** the **** out of him.

Fox and Falco also have a lot more speed which allows them to get inside Marth's range quickly during lag. That character aspect counts for more against Marth than anything probably which is a major reason why Falcon counters him. Peach is slower than Marth so . . .

Additionally, Peach can't spam turnips like Falco can with his lasers.

And if I'm not mistaken Peach's best kill move against Marth (excluding turnip edgeguarding) is the UpSmash or the DSmash both of which require Marth to mess up his spacing.

If someone has already said all of this to death I apologize but I was scrolling through the character specific board and had to put my 2cents in.

 

[DTKPch]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a counter character in general seeded lower in the tier list than the character he/she counters? Like no one calls Marth a Y. Link counter even though he ***** the **** out of him.

Okay. You're wrong.

A counter is purely when a character has a distinct advantage over another in a matchup. It can be a low tier having an advantage over a higher tier (Ganon over ICs, Young Link over Peach) or a high tier over a lower tier (Sheik over Bowser, Anyone over Mewtwo ) or it can be among similar level characters (Fox over Peach).

And OP is just plain wrong. Marth counters Peach. It's really that simple. He outranges her. He outprioritizes everything Peach can do (except for dsmash, which he just plain outranges, and up-b, which is useless). Turnips don't work. He can just jab. Grab game is by far superior. He also kills her at ridiculously low percents. I wouldn't say it's hopeless, but it's pretty **** tough.

I give it 65-35 or 70-30.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

everyone is so "grrrr"

 

[exarch]

^-to samochan

m2k 4 stocking pc chris means nothing either. his peach might be good, but i was addressing a completely different point. i'm simply saying that m2k ***** cort. in fact, m2k ***** nearly everyone so using him as an argument leads to nothing. his skill is way beyond everyone so how can comparing m2k's marth be fair? i'm convinced if mew2king actually used mew2 he'd still win tournies.

??? what's your point? marth can kill anyone at those percentages.

that may be true, but the turnip game against marth is great. i think it's a mental issue with marths. they feel like they can outspace the turnips and still get hit. i love it and it works. on paper, it might look good, but peach can still camp out marth.

dthrow to jab works which can lead to another grab or attack. sometimes they di out of the jab, but if they di UP, then that's an easy upsmash. not that complicated. the reason i said f-throw is awesome bc marth has a bad horizontal recovery. am i wrong?

and i clearly said the dsmash stage spike doesn't happen that often. i just mentioned it because every peach has done it at least once.

all right, i addressed this earlier. marth outranges EVERYONE. i would argue he outranges ganon too but that's a fairly close matchup as well. yes, marth is amazing, i agree but you act as if peach has NOTHING on marth. your description is a **** matchup, not a counter. if you want, you explain to me what advantages peach has. according to your description, peach can't even touch marth.

You're contradicting yourself.
First you argue that specific examples don't mean anything and that on paper marth vs peach is even, at least from the papers you're looking at.
Then you say the turnip swatting looks good on paper but in application it doesn't work. Pick a method of arguing, theory or practice and stick to it. Don't flip in and out to whichever suits your argument at that point in time. Now since in practice I'm pretty sure there's no argument against marth dominating peach, I'll address some of your oversights in the theoretical marth vs peach matchup.

Marth does outrange almost everyone, but as already mentioned many characters have decent rushdowns which marth struggles against, or can play outside of his range to make him commit to a move and then punish him in the lag with their superior speed. Peach cannot effectively or consistently punish marth's lag.

These characters often have the option to combo marth as well, sheik, CF, fox, falco, marth, are all more effective at comboing marth. There are also other characters which have a difficult time getting inside marth but combo (and kill) him far more effectively, jigglypuff and icys come to mind.

Other characters have a plethora of projectiles which they can spam at marth with little startup and which he has more problems handling than the one every 3 second turnips. (Link, Samus, Ylink). Of course, once marth is able to manouvre around to projectiles, he beats the crap out of these characters.

Other characters have large damage payout, long range, and strong attacks, which allow them to kill marth well before peach can. I'm thinking mostly ganon here, where several good hits is enough for him to keep up with marth.

Peach on the other hand...
Peach is too slow to get inside marths range with any form of consistency.
Peach cannot combo marth unless marth DIs poorly (are you sure you and your training partner know what DI is?) So during the exceptions where he messes up and lets her inside, she takes minimal advantage of it.
Peach does not have an effective projectile, Turnips are too laggy when pulling to be properly spammed. Marth can easily swat away the one she's thrown before she's able to toss another. Or if he stays close enough he can run up quickly (with his speed) and punish her for trying to pull a turnip.
Peach does not have excessively high damage pay out or strong kill moves. If marth DI's well, he will not die to any of peach's moves until 130+ (on most stages).

Marth on the other hand
Out ranges peach, combos her far better, tends to kill her at similar percents, and doesn't need to rely on a projectile.

Thus we have marth, who can relatively easily create his own openings, easy combos which do large damage, and kills peach about 150ish.
Peach, has to wait for marth to mess up, gets a typical 30% max out of his mistake, and kills him 140ish.

As for those other characters which i did not list here (i think i didn't actually go through the whole character listing), who are in the same boat as peach (like mario), marth counters them too.

This debate was over before it started, I'm done here, and you're obviously the most dedicated troll of all time.

 

[Razor]

And if I'm not mistaken Peach's best kill move against Marth (excluding turnip edgeguarding) is the UpSmash or the DSmash both of which require Marth to mess up his spacing.

If someone has already said all of this to death I apologize but I was scrolling through the character specific board and had to put my 2cents in.

now that i think about it, the way i kill marth the most often is with aerials. bair, nair, and the fair. that's just my experience. the down smash can kill marth, but usually it's more like sending him far away so he can't recover...as opposed to actually "killing" or knocking him out. you understand the difference right? i'm sure all peach players know : )

And OP is just plain wrong. Marth counters Peach. It's really that simple. He outranges her. He outprioritizes everything Peach can do (except for dsmash, which he just plain outranges, and up-b, which is useless). Turnips don't work. He can just jab. Grab game is by far superior. He also kills her at ridiculously low percents. I wouldn't say it's hopeless, but it's pretty **** tough.

I give it 65-35 or 70-30.

shrugs. if you disagree, that's fine. if people generally believe it's 70-30 for marth, then someone explain what that "30" is. most people here are disagreeing, which i expected, but no one is saying anything positive about this match up. i'm saying it's basically 50-50 or 55-45. if i can convince people it's somewhat closer to that, then i'll be happy.

 

[Razor]

You're contradicting yourself.
First you argue that specific examples don't mean anything and that on paper marth vs peach is even, at least from the papers you're looking at.
Then you say the turnip swatting looks good on paper but in application it doesn't work. Pick a method of arguing, theory or practice and stick to it. Don't flip in and out to whichever suits your argument at that point in time. Now since in practice I'm pretty sure there's no argument against marth dominating peach, I'll address some of your oversights in the theoretical marth vs peach matchup.

Marth does outrange almost everyone, but as already mentioned many characters have decent rushdowns which marth struggles against, or can play outside of his range to make him commit to a move and then punish him in the lag with their superior speed. Peach cannot effectively or consistently punish marth's lag.

These characters often have the option to combo marth as well, sheik, CF, fox, falco, marth, are all more effective at comboing marth. There are also other characters which have a difficult time getting inside marth but combo (and kill) him far more effectively, jigglypuff and icys come to mind.

Other characters have a plethora of projectiles which they can spam at marth with little startup and which he has more problems handling than the one every 3 second turnips. (Link, Samus, Ylink). Of course, once marth is able to manouvre around to projectiles, he beats the crap out of these characters.

Other characters have large damage payout, long range, and strong attacks, which allow them to kill marth well before peach can. I'm thinking mostly ganon here, where several good hits is enough for him to keep up with marth.

Peach on the other hand...
Peach is too slow to get inside marths range with any form of consistency.
Peach cannot combo marth unless marth DIs poorly (are you sure you and your training partner know what DI is?) So during the exceptions where he messes up and lets her inside, she takes minimal advantage of it.
Peach does not have an effective projectile, Turnips are too laggy when pulling to be properly spammed. Marth can easily swat away the one she's thrown before she's able to toss another. Or if he stays close enough he can run up quickly (with his speed) and punish her for trying to pull a turnip.
Peach does not have excessively high damage pay out or strong kill moves. If marth DI's well, he will not die to any of peach's moves until 130+ (on most stages).

Marth on the other hand
Out ranges peach, combos her far better, tends to kill her at similar percents, and doesn't need to rely on a projectile.

Thus we have marth, who can relatively easily create his own openings, easy combos which do large damage, and kills peach about 150ish.
Peach, has to wait for marth to mess up, gets a typical 30% max out of his mistake, and kills him 140ish.

As for those other characters which i did not list here (i think i didn't actually go through the whole character listing), who are in the same boat as peach (like mario), marth counters them too.

This debate was over before it started, I'm done here, and you're obviously the most dedicated troll of all time.

whoa, okay i'm double posting bc i didn't see this.

first, calm down man. if you think i'm a troll, then that's your opinion. seriously, calm down. i'm just trying to make my points. no need to be a jerk.

if you think it's such a **** match up, then quit peach and pick up sheik. see if you can beat m2k's marth with that. if it's such an obvious troll, then stop posting here. jeez.

i was going to reply to your points, but it's not even worth it.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

don't be lame. lol
GRRRRR