Marth Changes in new Patch

[Kira~]

Hey guys. I posted my collective Marth discoveries in the main patch 1.0.6 thread. I have personally confirmed Marth's down throw changes, as well as discovered forward throw changes (f throw now true combos into f-air and b-air in training mode). Un-tippered f-smash now kills sooner and f-air seems to have no changes. You can see my post here: http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-patch-version-1-0-6-thread.398902/page-23#post-18995143

I didn't think to test dancing blade out. I'll give that a shot now.

I also was unaware of up-smash killing earlier, but I can't remember what the original non-tippered kill percent was (I believe it was around 120% against Lucina on FD.) Right now though up-smash is killing her at 117% on FD.

I can double confirm fthrow combos. I was even able to true combo fthrow into double tipper fair in training mode at 0%.

 

[Radirgy]

I think they are trying to make Marth like a fencer, in fencing getting hit is a loss, rapiers are deadliest at the tip. So naturally if Marth is a fencer then his game works on avoiding hits while hitting with his dangerous tip.
I'd like him to have less lag but I can see what they are going for, every attack has to count and if you miss then you risk being hit yourself.

 

[Darklink401]

I really hope things like Usmash and Fsmash arent stronger. And I doubt it too. 117 sounds about right. I don't want Marth to be this berserker like the heavy weights. "Don't get hit by Marth or you're dead."

Instead, he needs to have the added ending lag on most of his moves removed, a few frames of landing lag reduced, and better autocancel windows that match the animations. If you were to guess when Fair should autocancel by the animation, you wouldnt say frame 36. It looks unnatural the way he lands with Fair after 30+ frames. Same goes with Nair and Dair, especially Dair.

What else is unnatural? Look at Up smash. Why does Marth twitch his body like that as if he's stalling to get punished? His animations were so smooth for Up smash in previous games. Or dancing blade 1. I can go on.



And this. You were the one who said Marth isn't supposed to be buffed or he will be broken. Especially with CS custom you said. Now you see the Marth we get and you quit. You asked for this so...I don't know what you want anymore.

I play him because he's fun not because he's good/not good. Even competitively.

It's sad to say but, Marth plays more like a heavyweight in this game. S'all there is to it.

He just has the speed to get in and out of situations much faster, making him more viable than, say, DK or Bowser.

 

[Minato]

While it would've been nice to have a few tweaks here and there, I'm still glad he got that dancing blade buff. It's what I wanted most. Helps him get better punishes, especially in a range he's just ok at.

Did we ever get the data on the startup for Dancing Blade?

 

[Rewrite]

I can double confirm fthrow combos. I was even able to true combo fthrow into double tipper fair in training mode at 0%.

How did you manage to get true combo f-throw -> f-air -> f-air at 0%? Your opponent falls out out of hit-stun before the second one can connect.

Marth does have a f-air to f-air true combo, but it's only possible at higher percentages and the first hit must be non-tipped since the tippered hit knocks them too far away at all percents.

 

[Kira~]

How did you manage to get true combo f-throw -> f-air -> f-air at 0%? Your opponent falls out out of hit-stun before the second one can connect.

Marth does have a f-air to f-air true combo, but it's only possible at higher percentages and the first hit must be non-tipped since the tippered hit knocks them too far away at all percents.

I've been trying to recreate the combo since I first did it with no success. Maybe it's just my mind playing tricks on me, but I could have sworn the combo counter went to 3 with the total damage being 24%. I was trying it against Sonic btw

 

[Vipermoon]

Btw guys Fthrow to Fair was already a combo before the patch.

I can double confirm fthrow combos. I was even able to true combo fthrow into double tipper fair in training mode at 0%.

Do you happen to have a friend on the Wii U with NNID Vipermoon64 and calls himself Ryan?

 

[Emblem Lord]

i made a post idk what happened but this is the short version. Marth needed better jab, better DB and better AC on fair. Thats it he got one out of three. Idk why people put words in my mouth that marth only needed one aspect of his game buffed.

Quick and viper both of you need to get out of your feelings. Im doing me. You do you. Cool?

 

[Illuminado]

Can also confirm that throw combos into aerials true comboed at certain percents with certain characters on the last patch too. Nothing seemed overly new there to me unfortunately .

 

[Rewrite]

I can double confirm fthrow combos. I was even able to true combo fthrow into double tipper fair in training mode at 0%.

How did you manage to get true combo f-throw -> f-air -> f-air at 0%? Your opponent falls out out of hit-stun before the second one can connect.

Marth does have a f-air to f-air true combo, but it's only possible at higher percentages and the first hit must be non-tipped since the tippered hit knocks them too far away at all percents.

I've been trying to recreate the combo since I first did it with no success. Maybe it's just my mind playing tricks on me, but I could have sworn the combo counter went to 3 with the total damage being 24%. I was trying it against Sonic btw

I 100% guarentee you it was your mind playing tricks for the reasons previously stated. It would be so cool if it had been true though.

 

[Illuminado]

As Emblem Lord states, it really doesn't seem like there are a lot of changes to him fundamentally other than basically what I would deem a QOL improvement to his DB. Oh and that i've seen the sour spot KB increase on the up smash. But yeah. Frame data is the next thing to wait for I think, but I'm not holding out for much. He feels pretty much the same to me at the moment. Will edit the first post with anything that comes up for sure when we know more though. Its still pretty early atm ^^.

 

[Emblem Lord]

also to clarify i said if DB got consistency buffs AND frame data buffs he would need nothing else. The start up frames seem unchanged. I figured he would buff DB because the move didnt make sense. Moderate risk for low reward is bad game design and sakurai fancies himself a perfectionist.

 

[Shaya]

Fair may have been given an auto cancel. If so it's incredibly small.
Short hop is 41 frames, and fair is 36. So what's effectively only a 5 frame window to fair after jumping, you reach the apex of your jump at 21 frames IIRC. Placebo be damned, but it seemed like I could fair slightly later in the rise and auto cancel.
Easy way to test this would actually be holding shield before jumping, fair input, then trying to buffer an action afterwards. As it's IASA is it's previous auto cancel, if you buffer a move on landing or you don't see any other action start while in air... I didn't think this through properly at the time, but I kept fairing into a buffered dsmash without seeing anything else come out from him.


Dancing Blade comboing better is a pretty good buff tbh.

 

[Pugwest]

Things i've personally noticed.

-Dancing Blade connects way better. It might be viable against Diddy now (who uses to get out so easy)
-D-air Spike hitbox tippers easier and spike actually spikes before 35% (35% is the % still needed to spike on the ground to put someone into laying down animation)
-D-Air also less landing lag but still not worth just throwing out.
-Slashes have bolder animations but i don't think the range actually changed.
-Air Mobility feels smoother.
-Jab 1-2 combo seems like the 2nd jab comes out faster but its probably just me. Although I use Jab ALOT as its a amazing momentum killer.

Edit: Dashing feels comfortable/more responsive.

 

[Kira~]

Btw guys Fthrow to Fair was already a combo before the patch.



Do you happen to have a friend on the Wii U with NNID Vipermoon64 and calls himself Ryan?

Uhhh, no. I recently removed a lot of people from my friends list, so maybe you were one of the people I removed?

 

[Quickhero]

@ Emblem Lord That's fine to be you, and I didn't mean to attack you personally, so apologies how it came that way.

It just irritates me how you state stuff like "Marth isn't designed to be viable" or something like that when it CLEARLY isn't true. It's fine if you don't want to use Marth in tournaments, but honestly saying it while saying something akin to saying that Sakurai is intentionally making Marth "unviable" after a significant buff is incredibly irritating.

 

[Darklink401]

@ Emblem Lord That's fine to be you, and I didn't mean to attack you personally, so apologies how it came that way.

It just irritates me how you state stuff like "Marth isn't designed to be viable" or something like that when it CLEARLY isn't true. It's fine if you don't want to use Marth in tournaments, but honestly saying it while saying something akin to saying that Sakurai is intentionally making Marth "unviable" after a significant buff is incredibly irritating.

If anything, he's BETTER now. He got a buff, and one of his bad MUs, Sheik, got a huge nerf.

Like what more do we want?

Megaman to not be able to shoot lemons?

 

[Quickhero]

@ Darklink401 Diddy got the huge nerf, Sheik got a minor one.

Geez though I swear any kill move Sheik has Sakurai likes to make sure it can't kill lol. Marth vs Sheik is probably a decently easier match-up than previously.

 

[Emblem Lord]

i want functionality.

Dont get me started on samus

also for the record. I dont think he buffed marth with the explicit purpose of making him better. Imo he is fixing a blatant oversight. An obvious imperfection in his creation. Same with nerfs to diddy.

As you can probably tell, my opinion of the man is not very lofty

 

[MaximalGFX]

Fair may have been given an auto cancel. If so it's incredibly small.
Short hop is 41 frames, and fair is 36. So what's effectively only a 5 frame window to fair after jumping, you reach the apex of your jump at 21 frames IIRC. Placebo be damned, but it seemed like I could fair slightly later in the rise and auto cancel.
Easy way to test this would actually be holding shield before jumping, fair input, then trying to buffer an action afterwards. As it's IASA is it's previous auto cancel, if you buffer a move on landing or you don't see any other action start while in air... I didn't think this through properly at the time, but I kept fairing into a buffered dsmash without seeing anything else come out from him.

I would like to say this is true. Before I had to slide my finger from Y to A to make sure Fair autocancel. Now I feel like I have plenty of time to press Y and lift my finger to press A and it will still autocancel.

 

[Vipermoon]

Fair may have been given an auto cancel. If so it's incredibly small.
Short hop is 41 frames, and fair is 36. So what's effectively only a 5 frame window to fair after jumping, you reach the apex of your jump at 21 frames IIRC. Placebo be damned, but it seemed like I could fair slightly later in the rise and auto cancel.
Easy way to test this would actually be holding shield before jumping, fair input, then trying to buffer an action afterwards. As it's IASA is it's previous auto cancel, if you buffer a move on landing or you don't see any other action start while in air... I didn't think this through properly at the time, but I kept fairing into a buffered dsmash without seeing anything else come out from him.


Dancing Blade comboing better is a pretty good buff tbh.

WAIT, Shaya. Fair used to be IASA frame 37, AC on 36. So are you saying that it is now IASA 36 on Fair? If so, then this makes Fair to our frame 5 Uair possible in the 41 frame short hop! If this is what you meant and this is true, then I wonder where that puts the AC at.

Uhhh, no. I recently removed a lot of people from my friends list, so maybe you were one of the people I removed?

I don't know his/her NNID but he/she called him/herself "Kira~", except the Mii was a male (at least I thought so). I would check but I'm not home with my Wii U till next week.

 

[Shaya]

You definitely cannot fair to up air now~ it's 37 frames still.

 

[Vipermoon]

You definitely cannot fair to up air now~ it's 37 frames still.

So what did you mean by this: "As it's IASA is it's previous auto cancel..." ?

 

[Shaya]

Thinkaman giving me the impression it's not changed. I'll just take it as unchanged in any way for now~
(I could probably test myself at some point).

 

[Pugwest]

@ Darklink401 Diddy got the huge nerf, Sheik got a minor one.

Geez though I swear any kill move Sheik has Sakurai likes to make sure it can't kill lol. Marth vs Sheik is probably a decently easier match-up than previously.

Diddy is buffed. U-throw u-air is new combo and kills earlier.

 

[Solutionme]

Hey guys. I posted my collective Marth discoveries in the main patch 1.0.6 thread. I have personally confirmed Marth's down throw changes, as well as discovered forward throw changes (f throw now true combos into f-air and b-air in training mode). Un-tippered f-smash now kills sooner and f-air seems to have no changes. You can see my post here: http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-patch-version-1-0-6-thread.398902/page-23#post-18995143

I didn't think to test dancing blade out. I'll give that a shot now.

I also was unaware of up-smash killing earlier, but I can't remember what the original non-tippered kill percent was (I believe it was around 120% against Lucina on FD.) Right now though up-smash is killing her at 117% on FD.

Yeah i think i noticed more hitstun on forward throw meaning crescent slash Marth has insane potential for top tier. Let's just hope it is the case. Scratch that just less knockback though idk why it feels like down throw and forward throw have more stun than pre-patch.

 

[Kira~]

WAIT, Shaya. Fair used to be IASA frame 37, AC on 36. So are you saying that it is now IASA 36 on Fair? If so, then this makes Fair to our frame 5 Uair possible in the 41 frame short hop! If this is what you meant and this is true, then I wonder where that puts the AC at.



I don't know his/her NNID but he/she called him/herself "Kira~", except the Mii was a male (at least I thought so). I would check but I'm not home with my Wii U till next week.

Oh that is most definitely me. I put the "Kira~" tag whenever I play on my brother's Wii U.

 

[Xisin]

going to throw this one out here: patch may have broken training mode combo counter, you can trick it into getting 30+ combos with mewtwo whit his side b to side b on get up

 

[Rewrite]

going to throw this one out here: patch may have broken training mode combo counter, you can trick it into getting 30+ combos with mewtwo whit his side b to side b on get up

That definitely sounds like something pertaining to Confusion only, especially if it's the only example.I tested the f-throw to f-air against a human and apart from DI-ing down and away at higher percentages he couldn't escape it.

 

[StaticSwordsman]

I'm almost POSITIVE they increased the range on his attacks. Also, special effects in general seem different? Almost across the board. Anyone else noticing this? Marth's slash "wave" seems different somehow. Same with the Falcon Punch animation. Maybe that makes it seem like his range is bigger.

I think he might dash a little faster too? Just initial impressions.

Honestly, Marth feels more natural today than he has any time I've tried to use him in Smash 4. Used to main him in Brawl/Melee, and I've been stumped all day as to why all of the sudden he feels "right" again. It's difficult to notice, since it's how you'd expect Marth to play. My gut instinct says it's something to do with the sword's arc drawing, hopefully frame data will shed further light. Tried taking comparison screenshots but didn't get the zoom exactly spot-on, my post-update shot is a bit more zoomed out than the first (post-update is on the left, pre- is on the right), but just at a quick glance pixel count from the tip of the sword to the tip of the blade's arc was 8 pixels in both. Weird that I'd get the same length with zoom issues like that, right? The hunch that he got a range buff could be legit (potentially the arc's draw/positioning has been altered in specific frames, or the drawing mechanic has been altered in a subtle way to make tipping easier/extend Marth's range on slashes without making his sword longer).

 

[Zorai]

Honestly, Marth feels more natural today than he has any time I've tried to use him in Smash 4.

Literally this. There's just something about him now that feels different. Perhaps they modified the engine as a whole?

 

[StaticSwordsman]

Literally this. There's just something about him now that feels different. Perhaps they modified the engine as a whole?

What if they've tweaked the tipping mechanic? Instead of calculating it at the sword's tip, it tips at the edge of the arc drawn by the slash. Visually, it'd be a lot more intuitive than the former (drawing the arc centered around the tip). I've noticed myself tipping a lot more fluidly today, it's feels more like part of his natural flow. This sort of tweak could be an effectual range buff, a simple GUI trick that makes us all feel better with Marth, or both.

Also enjoying the endlag reduction on certain moves too. Definitely improves his "flow."

 

[Vipermoon]

That definitely sounds like something pertaining to Confusion only, especially if it's the only example.I tested the f-throw to f-air against a human and apart from DI-ing down and away at higher percentages he couldn't escape it.

Still that was kind of the case before. Unless the knockback values were adjusted (which may not help since less KB = less hitstun). And as far as down throw and forward throw comboing easier...unless there is less end lag after Marth performs a throw you can't really combo better. Correct me if I'm wrong but unless it's a special circumstance, you can't just increase hitstun and have it fall out of the boundaries of whatever hitstun formula they use.

 

[Ryoku]

Literally this. There's just something about him now that feels different. Perhaps they modified the engine as a whole?

Either it's specific to Marth, or to everyone, but I noticed a quicker end-dash animation and a quicker turn-around animation (after dash). For some reason Marth feels more mobile on the stage. Maybe a quicker dash-startup animation (though, I doubt this)? I can't speak for other characters because I don't play them too much to notice. Or it's a placebo effect.

 

[Quickhero]

Marth just feels so much more rewarding, honestly. The DB buff alone is enough to compensate for all of the nerfs he has received since Brawl, but the f-throw and d-throw nerfs also helps in the sense that you can f-throw to f-air a bit more than usual.

Marth feels more natural because he's more rewarding. You still have to play relatively defensive and not go on the aggressive, but I find it to fit his character well. Even ignoring the fact that Marth actually loathes fighting and actually only resorts to violence when necessary, he still has graceful combos via his aerials and DB, but he still has to be careful and think wisely before moving. You have to use your movement options to bait openings, perfect pivot, SH AD, or even just single jumping to approach and double jumping back away so you can get something off of your opponent, if you see the opponent start to attack, make sure to provide space by using f-air, and you're all good.

You had to do these before, but now you have a much better neutral with Dancing Blade and the slight buff to combos just makes everything so much more rewarding and fun. I feel like I'm playing the Hero King Marth, not a Marth that is on support and needs crutches.

 

[Langston777]

i'm still not feeling any buffs

dair is the same
characters still fall out of DB
throw followups can still be DI'd

i'm going to grab a sparring partner and play some sets to see if i feel anything but i'm still in the 'sakurai ****ed us' club

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wait...knockback on f-throw was REDUCED?!?!?!!?

lololol

Sakurai is a DUMBASS!!!

i'm still not feeling any buffs

dair is the same
characters still fall out of DB
throw followups can still be DI'd

i'm going to grab a sparring partner and play some sets to see if i feel anything but i'm still in the 'sakurai ****ed us' club

who is falling out and when? offline or online?

 

[Shaya]

Fthrow to fair was a thing before, but I was able to get it showing as a combo on zelda up to like 40%... Which i don't think was a thing before...
IT'S A MAYBE, but like, Fthrow to fair was a true combo before this patch in at least some way.

Marth may have had some mobility specs changed, I indeed feel myself that somethings different. Definitely not any changes to his jumps from what I see at least.

 

[Vipermoon]

So let's say Fthrow has some base knockback and/or knockback growth adjustments. How is Fthrow to Crescent Slash? Still a thing up until kill percent?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm getting d-throw to uair to combo on CF at like...80%. pretty sure that wasnt a thing before. Also getting true combo at kill percents vs CF until like 120ish. i think it used to fall off around 100%...but someone should double check.