Marth Changes in new Patch

[Vipermoon]

Okay I finally played Smash 4 after the patch (and got M2!!) and Marth is unchanged (end lag, autocancel, and landing lag is what I focused on) except for possiblly two things:

Dancing blade forward hit 3 seems to actually hit them forward a little bit more (it used to almost always hit up).
Tipper Up air is slightly easier to get, it used to be pretty hard, but it still isn't nearly as easy as Brawl's.

Also some change in the game is allowing Marth's dancing blade to show as combos more often in training mode.

 

[Quickhero]

Also some change in the game is allowing Marth's dancing blade to show as combos more often in training mode.

That's because they ARE actually comboing. :D Marth got a much more reliable Dancing Blade and it's amazing.

 

[Solutionme]

Have the hackers found any info yet? I'm getting really skeptical at this point about what we feel we find and i'd rather have numbers post-patch and pre-patch!

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay I finally played Smash 4 after the patch (and got M2!!) and Marth is unchanged (end lag, autocancel, and landing lag is what I focused on) except for possiblly two things:

Dancing blade forward hit 3 seems to actually hit them forward a little bit more (it used to almost always hit up).
Tipper Up air is slightly easier to get, it used to be pretty hard, but it still isn't nearly as easy as Brawl's.

Also some change in the game is allowing Marth's dancing blade to show as combos more often in training mode.

Okay after playing Marth A LOT both with other humans in person and online on Ladder and FG.... I am almost completely sure dancing blade forward 3 sends the opponent forward more because dancing blade forward 1,2,3 to Up 4 usually doesn't work anymore. The 3 will hit them too far just out side of Up 4 horizontal range.

 

[Solutionme]

Okay after playing Marth A LOT both with other humans in person and online on Ladder and FG.... I am almost completely sure dancing blade forward 3 sends the opponent forward more because dancing blade forward 1,2,3 to Up 4 usually doesn't work anymore. The 3 will hit them too far just out side of Up 4 horizontal range.

Still skeptical about most of it minus dancing blade tbh, I really want some numbers!

 

[Freelance Spy]

Yeah the problem with Sheik is the neutral game but honestly it's just like re-learning the Brawl MK matchup. Be frame perfect and know what you can and can't punish. I have some slight hope for the future of the Marth vs Sheik matchup.

But I'm also working on my Sheik alongside my Marth, so I can get the best of both worlds.

What exactly can you punish? Want to open up a PM?

 

[Solutionme]

What exactly can you punish? Want to open up a PM?

You don't really punish Sheik, you just outrange her and use your counter wisely. The only real challenge is getting in because Sheik is faster and has a good projectile to zone you out, but you don't get too much lag on your safe moves.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol. Punish sheik

you kids these days

 

[LoreLes]

When you play against Sheik, you just spread your and let her do her thing.

 

[MitoRequiem]

He feels the same, this is why no patch notes suck lol. He wasn't changed at all guys, and if he was there wasn't any relevant changes :/

 

[Quickhero]

He feels the same, this is why patch notes suck lol. He wasn't changed at all guys, and if he was there wasn't any relevant changes :/

2 words. Dancing. Blade. :3

 

[Rewrite]

I`m pretty sure Dancing Blade is all in your guys head. You could always make it combo by timing your inputs.

 

[Xisin]

something def changed with fast fallers, my 3ds is still not updated and i cant pull dbs on greninja sheikd spacies etc at early % there but can on wii u.

 

[Emblem Lord]

db works on everyone from about 0 to about 30 percent consistently. This was not the case before. This is fact

 

[Illuminado]

As emblem lord states above. It's like people can't read or something. Too ready to accuse people of placebo or whatever. It was literally the thing that I tested myself and can 100% confirm. Dancing blade now true combos characters to all four hits from 0%. The only question in contention is whether this is a tweak to dancing blade or a mechanical engine change to fast fallers. So ridiculous when people write "I played as him and it feels the same". Of course it does. The move is the same. It's just now working as intended instead of being janky and unreliable. If you haven't been on training mode and extensively tested with two versions next to each other, stop posting irrelevant statements. *rant over*

 

[cerealkiller]

So ridiculous when people write "I played as him and it feels the same". Of course it does. The move is the same.

Understand that when people claim "he feels the same" they are not saying the moves are the same or not. The move can be the same and everything after that feel different, even if it is a % or KB change.
Some people feel the move engages the same way as before, even if it is proved in written numbers that it is changed and comboes differently. People just report their experiences.

Also, it annoyed me a bit that you refer to other people's posts as "irrelevant posts". How are theirs more irrelevant than yours? Because you tested it? What is it mean if you tested the move yourself and confirmed it 100%? What does that tell me if the next minute other person tells you that he tested it himself and confirmed 100% it is not changed? Are there any extensive, video-base, frame-data-based posts? If not, than all other posts here are irrelevant.

 

[Vipermoon]

I know one thing about dancing blade in unchanged (or not changed enough): up combo doesnt work on Fox and probably other fast fallers at low percents. But that's okay because we have a very useful forward combo that does work now.

Has anyone done back-to-back testing on the down combo? It wasn't the best before and I feel like it also improved but that's only feel. Considering all the damage it does, a better down combo would be great.

I also want to talk about down combo strategy real quick. If you find yourself doing dancing blade and your opponent is too far away, they are probably waiting to punish. I'm sure you all know this, but use down 4 and they will almost always run into it (tipper too). To make sure they do, fake them out with forward 3, then go down 4. If you use down 3 they will react in-time to what is going on and not approach.

I wish down 4 lasted ended at frame 60 like in Melee. That was great, almost no end lag. In this game it's 72 frames I believe.

 

[Xisin]

basically with db green 4 you want the opponent to not be grounded when you go for it, otherwise it will likely result in a shield + punish. so like... red, red, red, (are they in the air just a little bit?) green. As far as i know though green 4 is unchanged. I don't use green 3, would love to understand its (practical) use, but I don't use it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Down 3 does 1% less damage both tipped and untipped than the other 3's and I've found that it does a decent enough amount of hitstun and knockback to complete the down combo and even get the down 4 tipper. But it was probably still like that before the patch.

 

[Xisin]

random thought and i can't test it. in the customs DK match dancing blade actually beats dk out of cyclone up b, sometimes though its hard to space out properly or you get hit anyway or there's not enough knock back, That said has anyone tested heavy blades since the patch? particularly for this match up as its a pain in the ass. I can't test it now but thought of it. If I'm right heavy blades has longer range, is still transcendent and will do good knockback on the first fold in the air.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah heavy blade, along with shield breaker, has extremely long reach and they are transcendent so Marth can definitely challenge DK's wind up B. CS and DS work great too.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty sure Marth B move anything will slap DK stupid due to transcendence.

 

[Shaya]

Also random thing, but there may be some stealth buff we never picked up on, could've been even last patch for all we know (seeing as lucina's jab got touched back then too).

I originally found Marth's jab to be 29 frames when I recorded it on 3DS. There's the chance I messed up, but for the most part I was extremely salty finding everything having +2 frames lag tacked onto their cool down and would've thought I made sure.

@ KuroganeHammer was testing last night and told me Marth/Lucina's jabs are frame 27, which is the same as it was in Brawl but wasn't what I had originally noted.

 

[Quickhero]

@ KuroganeHammer was testing last night and told me Marth/Lucina's jabs are frame 27, which is the same as it was in Brawl but wasn't what I had originally noted.

Sweet! :D Super exciting to see how jab can now reliably combo to Dancing Blade if you hit someone in the air. You force an air dodge after jabbing so you'll either get hit by the entire thing or from 2-4. It's a mixture of both buffs but it's amazing to see how Marth got more than one thing.

So Marth's jab is much better period now? Brawl Marth's jab was pretty damn good so now it must be able to transition into more than just our buffed DB. :o

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Technically I only tested Lucina/fsmash the character, but I assume Marth's are exactly the same.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ok so start spamming jab. gotcha

 

[Shaya]

I need to know a way to confirm this though. ****.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Confirm what? If it was buffed?

 

[Shaya]

Yes, of course.

 

[Vipermoon]

Seems pretty random for a single buff. I have a feeling it was a mistake (no offense Shaya). After jab 2, you wait for jab 2 to end before you can start jab 1 again. The time you wait seems the same as the time you wait in Brawl by feel only though (in Melee, obviously, jab 2 is interruptible by jab 1 at frame 20 which creates a sort of infinite jab but that's Melee). But hey, it's 2 frames so by feel it could still feel the same. Can we please test the 3 tilts just in-case those were brought back to Brawl frames?

 

[Shaya]

No offense taken, I only want to be sure~

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay I'm just gonna say this...

What if Ftilt was brought back to Brawl levels of end lag? I double checked just now and if you try spamming Ftilt over and over and then do the same for Utilt, Utilt seems way laggier. It's supposed to be 39 frames for Ftilt and 42 for Utilt, but it feels like Ftilt is more like 35-36 when you compare the difference in speed to Utilt. Try it guys before you call me crazy. I have none of the equipment some of you have so I can only go by instinct which doesn't make what I said above look good so I'm really sorry if I end up being wrong.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah I just compared the two frame data posts, and their ftilts are now frame 35 when I originally had them at 39.
And jab is 3 frames faster than I originally tested it too.

Jab 29>26
And Ftilt 39>35

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah I just compared the two frame data posts, and their ftilts are now frame 35 when I originally had them at 39.
And jab is 2 frames faster than I originally tested it too.

Jab 29>26
And Ftilt 39>35

Wow! This is great news.

Is the jury still out of Dtilt and Utilt?

26 is a typo right?

 

[Shaya]

A habit of using "IASA" which is often how a person uses "FAF - 1"

As Brawl's jab was IASA 27, when Aero told me FAF 27 I automatically associated it as such. But if it's now FAF 27, then it would be IASA 26.

For the sake of whatever, I'll keep to IASAs in the conversation for now.
It being 26 instead of 27 could be to compensate the +1 start up we gained on it.

All other frame data we have matched.
And this isn't 100% confirmation that's the case, BUT it's at least a contrast to the data I originally did.

 

[Quickhero]

Yeah I just compared the two frame data posts, and their ftilts are now frame 35 when I originally had them at 39.
And jab is 2 frames faster than I originally tested it too.

Jab 29>26
And Ftilt 39>35

This is super amazing. I know it's not much, but ti's still enough for Marth to become much better on the ground. I'm going to start applying f-tilt much more often now, and any tips on how so would be great.

I'm sorry for being picky about this, but when you are updating the patch notes to include these, can you please give the Marth DB thing his own section as well? It's such a massive buff that putting it in a place that implies it is a minor change would be a great disservice. D: You should probably do so with the other characters but I could understand if those buffs aren't major for the other characters.

 

[Shaya]

Never mind team, IT GOT CONFIRMED.


MARTHS JAB and FTILT GOT BUFFED! As did LUCINAS!

I can confirm the buffs are real comparing 1.0.0 and 1.0.7, at the very least. I don't have access to 1.0.4 though.

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay so seeing how jab 2 comes out on frame 3 where jab 1 is frame 5. Could jab 2 end earlier?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Never mind team, IT GOT CONFIRMED.


MARTHS JAB and FTILT GOT BUFFED! As did LUCINAS!

<removed>

 

[Quickhero]

Got Marth's jab on footage. Can confirm f-tilt is the same as well but I have no clue how I can possibly record that. x.x