Marth Changes in new Patch

[Shaya]

Dthrow has no end lag changes, we have that confirmed. Fthrow is a "who knows".
Only other explanation is trajectory or growth has been changed; ask someone to test in training mode what percent dthrow kills at between versions~

But I'm telling you now, we were dthrow uairing captain falcon at 80% in training mode before too.

 

[Rewrite]

After playing some 50 odd games as Marth, comparing to old videos, replays, and keeping up with the Smashboards and Reddit threads I am concluding Marth is unchanged.

Marth's unstaled F-smash could always kill barely upwards of 100%. F-throw to f-air has been a combo all along as well as d-throw to Dolphin Slash working until around 150%.

While it's really cool that we've discovered some new stuff with Marth, I unfortunately believe very strongly that all of it existed pre-patch.

Anything that 'feels' different from before has just been that: a feeling.

On the plus side, the potential that there were changes to Marth inspired us to dig deeper than ever before into our character. simply being told that there may have been an altercation to Marth's d-throw inspired me to look at his other throws and I discovered that f-throw had true combo follow-ups in training mode. Even though I'm certain that the combo was always there, I wouldn't have though to try looking at Marth's grabs for follow-ups and it would have gone undiscovered until much later.

Smash 4 Marth is obviously Marth's weakest incarnation, but it's not bad and has been brushed aside far too easily. As much as we would like buffs to the definitive Smash Sword Guy, he still has what it takes to carry a player a mile or two. Besides, there's always next patch anyways.

 

[Langston777]

<<<<<<
<<<<<< dis guy called it
<<<<<<

you people and your placebos

DB comboing on greninja still has me at a loss though. i don't feel any change in the move. that would leave either the combo counter was broken or miscellaneous game physics were changed in some way.

also comparing throws on 106 and 105 the throw trajectory hasn't changed for any of marth's throws. i'm doing this by eye with BF platforms but i'm 99% positive all 4 throws are identical to post-patch. tested at diff %'s too.

 

[Quickhero]

Wait, none of you guys knew about D-throw to Dolphin Slash? I've known and uploaded about that since December.

Also, I know for a fact that DB changed, so if everything else was just placebo I'm okay. Motivating the Marth community was well worth it even if the f-throw and d-throw thing is a lie. :3

 

[LyonDRC]

I'm positive i've got the f-throw to tipper f-air as a true combo before. It was really time-strict though and it was DI-able so it may be easier to get it this patch.

 

[Honor]

The only thing I've found is DB being slightly easier to combo now.

Thx for the update about dthrow to Dolphin Slash I honestly didn't know about that. @ Quickhero did you post a vid of that?

 

[Quickhero]

@ Honor I sent it to the Marth Social thread a while back, though I uploaded it at mid January so ye apologies for saying I uploaded it sooner haha. I've known about it since the end of December though. I'm just surprised not a lot of people knew about this until now haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6jvEuTl3II

 

[Honor]

Thanks much!

 

[cerealkiller]

I didn't know it comboed i just thought they didn't react fast enough but I've been using that for some time now. I also like to use it after Dthrow at higher % when the opponent is falling and waiting for the Uair to dodge I jump+UpB to catch them offguard. It's not entirely safe because if you don't hit correctly and apply knockback there's a free hit.

 

[Xisin]

well good news atleast: starting to beat diddy players I couldnt beat before the patch, his up air is no where near where it once was, which was marths biggest obstacle in the mu (landing) not to say its a good mu now but its playable now. Sheik is still ass, killing power wasnt the problem there. ROB just got easier too! the nerf to his grab ko helps a TON. the mu is in the neighborhood of 45/55 to 40/60 now. Marth doesnt have an un-winnable mu now, in my experience at least. Sheik is prob the worst mu, bair kills her fairly early too. that and up throw.... take advantage of up throw rage in the mu for sure.

 

[Rewrite]

well good news atleast: starting to beat diddy players I couldnt beat before the patch, his up air is no where near where it once was, which was marths biggest obstacle in the mu (landing) not to say its a good mu now but its playable now. Sheik is still ***, killing power wasnt the problem there. ROB just got easier too! the erf to his grab ko helps a TON. the mu is in the neighborhood of 45/55 to 40/60 now.

I've always found the Diddy Kong match-up to be relatively even pre-patch. Around 40 - 60 or 45 - 55. Diddy's hard nerfs have made everyone's match-up up against them better though. To me, Diddy Kong was never the overpowered force that most people say. As Marth I could zone him pretty hard with spacing and reads, but now it's good to know that one mistake won't cost me a ton of damage or the stock.

I think what makes Marth such an interesting character in Smash 4 is his match-ups are all over the tier-list. He's relatively even with Diddy Kong and is positive against Rosalina (plz what's Luma gonna do against this range <3), but some lower tier characters give Marth a really hard time.

I think Marth makes a really good secondary in Smash 4. He's great to throw at some Match-ups, but others you'll want to avoid at all costs at both high and low tier.

 

[LoreLes]

If anything the nerfs to diddy makes it easier because as stated the punishes for making one mistake literally won't cost you a hefty amount of damage/stock. It's actually not annoying to fight Diddy anymore.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Diddy was not his hardest match. Prolly his 4th hardest. The Diddy nerfs imo don't effect him that much.

Also DB comboing on people it didnt before proves there was a system change at least.

 

[Solutionme]

Can we just wait on information the hackers scrub out? I feel like there could be more changes on each character, they just might be super slight which is a trend Sakurai seems to have done so far.

 

[Zorai]

well good news atleast: starting to beat diddy players I couldnt beat before the patch, his up air is no where near where it once was, which was marths biggest obstacle in the mu (landing) not to say its a good mu now but its playable now. Sheik is still ***, killing power wasnt the problem there. ROB just got easier too! the nerf to his grab ko helps a TON. the mu is in the neighborhood of 45/55 to 40/60 now. Marth doesnt have an un-winnable mu now, in my experience at least. Sheik is prob the worst mu, bair kills her fairly early too. that and up throw.... take advantage of up throw rage in the mu for sure.

100% agree with your opinion on Diddy, Marth really goes toe to toe with him now from my experience as well

Yeah the problem with Sheik is the neutral game but honestly it's just like re-learning the Brawl MK matchup. Be frame perfect and know what you can and can't punish. I have some slight hope for the future of the Marth vs Sheik matchup.

But I'm also working on my Sheik alongside my Marth, so I can get the best of both worlds.

I've always found the Diddy Kong match-up to be relatively even pre-patch. Around 40 - 60 or 45 - 55. Diddy's hard nerfs have made everyone's match-up up against them better though. To me, Diddy Kong was never the overpowered force that most people say. As Marth I could zone him pretty hard with spacing and reads, but now it's good to know that one mistake won't cost me a ton of damage or the stock.

I think what makes Marth such an interesting character in Smash 4 is his match-ups are all over the tier-list. He's relatively even with Diddy Kong and is positive against Rosalina (plz what's Luma gonna do against this range <3), but some lower tier characters give Marth a really hard time.

I think Marth makes a really good secondary in Smash 4. He's great to throw at some Match-ups, but others you'll want to avoid at all costs at both high and low tier.

what low tier characters would those be? I fail to see how Marth struggles against any of them. You probably just don't know all of your opponent's options. Don't get me wrong, Marth can have an 'even' matchup against characters lower on the tier list, but that's why fighting games are about player skill.

Diddy was not his hardest match. Prolly his 4th hardest. The Diddy nerfs imo don't effect him that much.

Also DB comboing on people it didnt before proves there was a system change at least.

What is your opinion on his hardest matchups atm?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

T_T I think Yoshi and Link are some of the hardest matchups. They have omnidirectional projectiles and are also superior in the close range. There is only a small sweet area you can maneuver around.. But they can fight it NP because their tilts and smashes have FARTHER REACH THAN YOURS!

Have a hard time approaching and staying in... Even at tipper range. That pretty much describes the most stressful matchups for Marth.

 

[Zorai]

T_T I think Yoshi and Link are some of the hardest matchups. They have omnidirectional projectiles and are also superior in the close range. There is only a small sweet area you can maneuver around.. But they can fight it NP because their tilts and smashes have FARTHER REACH THAN YOURS!

Have a hard time approaching and staying in... Even at tipper range. That pretty much describes the most stressful matchups for Marth.

Not at all haha. We actually beat both of those characters. Link has bad zonebreakers so it's even easier. Just powershield his projectiles out of your walk and you can beat out all his options. I believe he has no answer to even just downtilt. If you want me to talk about the neutral some more just ask.

Yoshi is similar, but you have to really watch out for his zonebreakers. He has a great dashgrab and dashattack, so this matchup is similar to fighting against Falcon. Yoshi is one of the high tier characters that Marth beats solidly, another being Rosalina.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Not at all haha. We actually beat both of those characters. Link has bad zonebreakers so it's even easier. Just powershield his projectiles out of your walk and you can beat out all his options. I believe he has no answer to even just downtilt. If you want me to talk about the neutral some more just ask.

Yoshi is similar, but you have to really watch out for his zonebreakers. He has a great dashgrab and dashattack, so this matchup is similar to fighting against Falcon. Yoshi is one of the high tier characters that Marth beats solidly, another being Rosalina.

I'd like to discuss Yoshi matchup privately. I always get pwned by this very strong Yoshi player...
Publicly is fine, but not in this thread.

 

[Locuan]

I'd like to discuss Yoshi matchup privately. I always get pwned by this very strong Yoshi player...
Publicly is fine, but not in this thread.

You can always discuss this in the Match-Up Thread.

 

[Emblem Lord]

His hardest match-ups imo are ZSS, Sheik, Sonic and Dedede. That's in order.

 

[Zorai]

His hardest match-ups imo are ZSS, Sheik, Sonic and Dedede. That's in order.

Yup I agree. Those are his hardest but not entirely impossible especially with some combination of dashing assault, CS, and iai counter.

Dedede? That's a bold statement for forth hardest matchup. I forgot he was even in this game. Generally any slower character is less of a problem. Dedede has a terrible dashgrab, no zonebreakers, and no approach options outside of dash shield or gordo at best, but you can swat / powershield that.

We can continue this in the matchup thread

 

[WarioJim]

Yup I agree. Those are his hardest but not entirely impossible especially with some combination of dashing assault, CS, and iai counter.

Dedede? That's a bold statement for forth hardest matchup. I forgot he was even in this game. Generally any slower character is less of a problem. Dedede has a terrible dashgrab, no zonebreakers, and no approach options outside of dash shield or gordo at best, but you can swat / powershield that.

We can continue this in the matchup thread

Are you insulting my man Dedede!?

...anyway, I don't think Marth is as bad as some people call him out to be. In need of buffs, yes, but the worst char? ...though I honestly don't think there are any bad chars in this game (I don't really play the 3 clones or Mii Fighters though).

 

[Solutionme]

Imo the hardest match-ups for Marth atm seem to be Donkey Kong due to his range and easier time killing Marth compared to Marth killing Donkey. King Dedede which shouldn't even need an explanation cause of how obvious it is. Captain Falcon i'd say is hard too cause he can easily punish Marth and just combos Marth better than Marth can combo back. Link seems to be up there as well due to the projectile camping and range that can compete with Marth. Then the ones that come closer to being the hardest are the floaties minus jiggs or characters with multiple jumps except charizard cause charizard is easy to bait. This is because floaties with multiple jumps like kirby or characters with multiple jumps like pit can always confuse Marth and punish. Actually now that i think about it, the pits might be tough for Marth too but nothing short of Marth versus Donkey since Marth can punish Pit or Dark Pit just as bad as pit or dark pit can punish Marth. Imo that's what i feel gives Marth a slightly difficult time, but nothing other than King Dedede and Donkey Kong.

 

[Pugwest]

After playing some 50 odd games as Marth, comparing to old videos, replays, and keeping up with the Smashboards and Reddit threads I am concluding Marth is unchanged.

Marth's unstaled F-smash could always kill barely upwards of 100%. F-throw to f-air has been a combo all along as well as d-throw to Dolphin Slash working until around 150%.

While it's really cool that we've discovered some new stuff with Marth, I unfortunately believe very strongly that all of it existed pre-patch.

Anything that 'feels' different from before has just been that: a feeling.

On the plus side, the potential that there were changes to Marth inspired us to dig deeper than ever before into our character. simply being told that there may have been an altercation to Marth's d-throw inspired me to look at his other throws and I discovered that f-throw had true combo follow-ups in training mode. Even though I'm certain that the combo was always there, I wouldn't have though to try looking at Marth's grabs for follow-ups and it would have gone undiscovered until much later.

Smash 4 Marth is obviously Marth's weakest incarnation, but it's not bad and has been brushed aside far too easily. As much as we would like buffs to the definitive Smash Sword Guy, he still has what it takes to carry a player a mile or two. Besides, there's always next patch anyways.

Everyones Dash has a faster startup, at leasts marths does. I think thats why the f-throw f-air combos work now. Dash around with marth like, dash-stop-dash-stop, you'll see how much quicker his dash responds now.

His hardest match-ups imo are ZSS, Sheik, Sonic and Dedede. That's in order.

I train against a Zss daily and I can confirm the difficulty but its easy once you've gained enough experience. I say 55/45 Zss favor.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Your brother is strong but just because you fight him all the time does not make the match-up near even. In terms of tools she outdoes him quite well, but her tools specifically negate what he wants to do. It is 6-4 at best but I feel it is worse then that.

Rather I would say you and he now have your own personal meta that has evolved past the match-up.

 

[Langston777]

thank god other people realize how terrible of a MU D3-Marth is
anyone who thinks otherwise has not played competent D3's
just look at the mu on paper, we have nothing

also ^^^ Marth does fairly well vs DK and falcon, especially since they can't do anything but mix up their up+B offstage. i mean falcon's mad scary onstage but marth's range can keep him out as long as you don't start whiffing **** and he's easy keep in the air and follow up on cuz of his hitbox and weight.
Pit can be annoying but he's not the worst
also, i'll say i've never fought a very good Link, but i don't think it's that bad of a MU. you have the range and speed to punish Link on shield and his projectiles aren't really threatening in any way. also countering up+b kills Link at like 100+% so he's free offstage. but then again all the Links i've faced were pretty flowcharty so i can't really analyze the mu.

 

[Solutionme]

thank god other people realize how terrible of a MU D3-Marth is
anyone who thinks otherwise has not played competent D3's
just look at the mu on paper, we have nothing

also ^^^ Marth does fairly well vs DK and falcon, especially since they can't do anything but mix up their up+B offstage. i mean falcon's mad scary onstage but marth's range can keep him out as long as you don't start whiffing **** and he's easy keep in the air and follow up on cuz of his hitbox and weight.
Pit can be annoying but he's not the worst
also, i'll say i've never fought a very good Link, but i don't think it's that bad of a MU. you have the range and speed to punish Link on shield and his projectiles aren't really threatening in any way. also countering up+b kills Link at like 100+% so he's free offstage. but then again all the Links i've faced were pretty flowcharty so i can't really analyze the mu.

Idk sometimes I find myself getting juked so hard by the characters i specify, but i do feel like DK gives a tough time to Marth just because of the superior range and easier time killing, not to mention DK has more spike options and shield breaking options, one of which is good for outranging a Marth trying to grab him. Then again this is a good DK and i'm pretty good but honestly when two players go at it you never know the result.

 

[Shaya]

I've played competent D3s (well Junkinthetrunk whos mained him since Brawl and Tyrant who uses that character solidly against every top player who's shown up at Sky's house). Never really felt the frustration. Thought it was one of his worst due to never being able to deal with any sort of braindead flowcharts on Wifi, but what happens when Marth can suddenly react to ALL of D3's moveset?

He's really easy roll in fodder, Ftilt is good but it's a poke at best that doesn't really put him out of place in neutral; if you're coming in above you usually fall out.
Shieldbreaker cleanly beats his entire moveset and is on average only a few frames slower than his own tools.

Offstage, counter is very reliable. Being comfortable with how his vertical spacing functions with fast falls and his multijumps makes me feel that you can generally weave or outspace (nair/shieldbreaker) to avoid most gimp attempts.

D3 cannot multijump space in neutral against us well. Obviously it's one of his best features but if you're behind him (free roll ins when you know bair can't be used) you will not NOT beat him with jab/uptilt/ftilt/upsmash or bairing ourselves. Also crouching. Good luck to D3 hitting you before you hit him while crouching.

I generally just shield and dash grab a lot, and try to play in a way to avoid just about everything he does bar ftilt; taking ftilts is really meager reward compared to us throwing him into the air and we can beat it reliably if it whiffs or outspace/trade on read.

From all my varied experiences I fight significantly tougher battles against Pikachu, Luigi or Ness than Dedede.

DK on the other hand is a really really silly 50-50ish match up (customs off). His well spaced actions aren't as dangerous as a punish as they once were, but marth doesn't really have an answer to cyclone otherwise (beating cyclone means getting beaten up by down-b :<).

 

[Langston777]

interesting input, but dash grabbing D3?

how is any D3 letting you just straight up dash grab him

also how are you supposed to take advantage of getting D3 in the air when it's so easy to whiff an aerial or get hit by one of D3s trying to follow up?
it's forcing you to over commit every time if you want to actually hit D3 while he's airborne
maybe i just suck but getting D3 in the air feels pointless. yeah you can punish any of his landing options but good D3's don't make it easy on me, they stay up in the air for quite a while sometimes.

feels like im supposed to stand just out of range and make sure he doesn't try rolling into me or throwing gordos because it honestly doesn't feel like we can approach D3 anymore than he can approach us

 

[Shaya]

Because he doesn't have anything that stops you from grabbing him bar ftilt or grabbing? You can dash grab punish his ftilt on whiff as it is. He doesn't have options to deal with roll ins? Because it's feasible to outspace him which forces him into shield?

Learn to count jumps. Force jumps without over committing (empty short hops, sh air dodge).
I don't know what "it's so easy to whiff an aerial" is meant to argue. If you're whiffing a fat blob with little mobility that's your fault, not Marth's.

The question I ask you after reading your issues is, are you playing this on wifi and why are you trying to play that match up on wifi with someone lacking projectiles/easy to use safe attacks?

 

[fox67890]

also how are you supposed to take advantage of getting D3 in the air when it's so easy to whiff an aerial or get hit by one of D3s trying to follow up?
it's forcing you to over commit every time if you want to actually hit D3 while he's airborne
maybe i just suck but getting D3 in the air feels pointless. yeah you can punish any of his landing options but good D3's don't make it easy on me, they stay up in the air for quite a while sometimes.

I actually remeber this being a problem in brawl iirc, and I see where you're coming from. You cant commit to landing traps *well* vs him (or really other characters with multiple jumps in my experience)

If you diasgree, that's fine, but I find a good way to beat it out is through full hoping and then using nair (and then fast falling). If you put that with counting jumps (and seeing patterns in how many jumps D3 mains use in that situation), then the situation actually feels very advantageous to me. At least try it out before you disregard it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For the record I have only fought D3 on 3DS which does have lag. I might feel differently if I fought him on Wii u but no D3s exist anymore.

D3 really isnt scary he just has enough stuff to outspace Marth and has grab reward. Its not on the same level as Brawl and that match was actually close to even at high level.

Hmmm.

 

[Langston777]

i'm not arguing anything on D3's match up, i'm trying to discuss it. i'm simply asking questions for my own benefit since you say you don't have the troubles i tend to face on it.

the problem with D3 air camping is that marth's attacks last for few frames so if marth throws out an attack, chances are it will not hit (unless marth jumps high enough to reach his multiple jumps and if d3 dodges while jumping you're in the air most likely at a frame disadvantage), and even worse D3 will punish the recovery with his own attack. therefore i don't know what to do when D3's jumping around in the air other than to try and shield grab his descent.

and i play marth on wifi because he's the only character i take seriously aside from kirby. i've never seen a d3 at my local. i'll try taking your info into account so thanks anyway.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just so you realize, Marth is bottom 3 on wifi so your experiences are not reflecting what he is truly capable of.

Always keep that in mind when you use him on wifi.

 

[Langston777]

it's still the best way for me to get in practice with my schedule though. i can barely make my local, let alone find people in my area that don't suck

 

[Emblem Lord]

Whats your local? and what days are you free?

 

[Solutionme]

Dudes I can't believe we missed this but a tipped up smash combos into down throw on lucina in training. It does 22% damage meaning it is the best option on low percents!

Edit: the timing is hard but even then your opponent has such little time to react. It is basically almost frame perfect. So far it only seems to work at 0% for me. So it is I'm assuming at this point frame perfect because it is inconsistent at 0%. It did register as a true combo for me occasionally up to 3% though.

 

[Langston777]

I go to HitboxArena. only been there like twice so far though. classes are over in like 2 weeks so i don't know what my work schedule will be over summer (probably 12-6 mon-fri) but right now i have time after 5pm on Monday / Tuesday, and Friday-Sunday varies on whether I'm in the city or not, and hitbox arena is on Tuesdays. Sometimes I get swamped with work though so it kinda differs on when i can actually make time to smash. i usually just go online after midnight to get a few games in.

^ I've done dthrow usmash on marth before but it was on accident, and also during a match so i have no idea if it's legit. that was prepatch too.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Blue has bi weeklies every other saturday for smash 4 starting at 1 pm for doubles then 4pm for singles.

I was just there actually today.

 

[Solutionme]

I go to HitboxArena. only been there like twice so far though. classes are over in like 2 weeks so i don't know what my work schedule will be over summer (probably 12-6 mon-fri) but right now i have time after 5pm on Monday / Tuesday, and Friday-Sunday varies on whether I'm in the city or not, and hitbox arena is on Tuesdays. Sometimes I get swamped with work though so it kinda differs on when i can actually make time to smash. i usually just go online after midnight to get a few games in.

^ I've done dthrow usmash on marth before but it was on accident, and also during a match so i have no idea if it's legit. that was prepatch too.

All I know is that it is difficult to do, at times like these I wish I had a c-stick to make it easier, but the opponent would have to be mashing his jump to even try and get out, which tbh considering the circumstance in the air and how jumps don't instantly get you out of the way might make it easy damage and an opportunity to juggle.