Mario's Gimping Discussion! This Week: Zero Suit Samus

[fromundaman]

Oh... all right. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Judge Judy]

Alright, you guys want to start discussing MK?

 

[Matt07]

Yes, let's start with MK .

 

[Matador]

Before we start...could this thread double as thread on how NOT to get gimped by these characters? We don't have one of those, though we touch on the subject a little on each matchup discussion.

 

[Judge Judy]

Before we start...could this thread double as thread on how NOT to get gimped by these characters? We don't have one of those, though we touch on the subject a little on each matchup discussion.

Alright lol, I'll see what I can do.

 

[:mad:]

Heh, hasn't this been discussed so many times already?
Oh well, it wouldn't hurt to have a nice guide, I'll contribute to the best of my ability.

 

[Judge Judy]

How you guys want to do this, because it's going to be kind of awkward to go into the MK boards and ask them to help us discuss how to gimp them.

 

[:mad:]

Uhh, you could always just make a list.

How well cape works against this character: (explanation here.)
How does FLUDD affect the this character's recovery: (explanation.)
What moves keep this character offstage: (list.)

Any other ideas?

 

[Judge Judy]

Uhh, you could always just make a list.

How well cape works against this character: (explanation here.)
How does FLUDD affect the this character's recovery: (explanation.)
What moves keep this character offstage: (list.)

Any other ideas?

That sounds good, still, it might be a good idea if we got input from the other boards to clarify things and such.

 

[:mad:]

I agree, they know their characters better than we do. It doesn't have to be word for word, by the way.

Any ideas on who goes first?

 

[Judge Judy]

I heard a lot of people request MK.

 

[:mad:]

I think it'd be more helpful to do this alphabetically, starting with Bowser, but why not MK?
Go for it.

 

[Judge Judy]

Alright, I'll start by making the MK boards aware of the discussion.

 

[:mad:]

So what's your opinion?

I really think he's a gimpable character, but it's more trouble than it's worth. A well placed cape is hard to land, since most Meta Knights will shuttle loop when close to an edge. Fludd isn't as helpful as I hope, so it'll just be there to diminish his jumps. Bair, of course will probably be the main move used, as well as the occasional nair and uair. It isn't very smart to go for a forward air very often, the Meta Knight could fastfall dair and gimp the Mario player.

 

[Judge Judy]

Well gimping MK is all about forcing him to use his Up B and then trying to gimp that directly with the cape. MK's glide makes him tricky to edgeguard since it moves fast and he can use to go under the stage, however, it's not impossible to intercept and as soon as he starts needing to use his jumps he becomes a lot more vulnerable. MK is also tough to edgeguard since he can still punish mistakes with his aerials, and if you’re careless there's a good possibility you can get smacked in an undesirable position by his Up B.

As far as what Mario can do:

-Uair, Nair, and Bair are all viable options in terms of edgeguarding with aerials; I personally don't use Dair off-stage other than for stage spikes and Fair is just far too unreliable against MK.

-Cape glide is good if MK is very far off-stage and an Uair out of it will most likely KO him if he's that far off-stage; situational, but a good tool to have nevertheless.

-The cape works well but you should try to be somewhat conservative with it so you don't miss a chance to cape his Up B, also, it's a little slow compared to MK's aerials so it can be punished if you're not careful; pretty much self-explanatory, but basically you want to focus on caping MK's Up B when the opportunity arises.

-FLUDD works pretty well on MK's Up B but you absolutely want to have it fully-charged for best results, still FLUDD will be more used for aiding cape gimps rather than gimping on its own. Additionally, the FLUDD can slow down MK's glide and FIHL works well on MK's glide atk. Overall, the FLUDD is best saved for MK's glide and Up B.

 

[Matador]

-EDGEGUARDING
Does MK's Gair outrange our cape? I know it's definitely faster, which makes caping his shuttleloop a little difficult in itself, but if it outranges cape, then it's not a question of timing. Cape beats Drillrush and Tornado, though you'd need to do it multiple times to actually keep the nado off. Like you said, Fludd probably won't gimp anything alone, but affects everything a little when fully charged. Fair is not viable at all for edgeguarding him.

-RECOVERY
MK's Dair beats our upB. MK hits fast enough with his attacks to swat fireballs defending our recovery. Fludding MK away during recovery actually works very well since he's so light, but you must watch where you Fludd him. It could easily put him in position to ledgehog us, in which case you cape to wait out the invincibility, then upB. Fair during recovery, when uses sparingly, is viable as a mixup and could potentially take a stock off the MK. Capestalling is not safe...at all. Fair and Dair outrange cape. It only takes one to gimp Mario most times.

 

[Judge Judy]

I've been knocked out of Mario's Up B by MK's Dair a few times but I think it's more poor timing than anything else since Mario's Up B comes out faster and is invincible upon startup.

Edit: OP updated.

 

[:mad:]

If Mario can cape a glide, MK will still have his remaining jumps and shuttle loop, right?
I never really saw that happen.

 

[Judge Judy]

If Mario can cape a glide, MK will still have his remaining jumps and shuttle loop, right?
I never really saw that happene.

Yes, he will.

 

[:mad:]

Fix'd the last typo.

That's too bad. So I imagine you should Fludd after caping a glide. Fludd, or follow up with a bair?

 

[Judge Judy]

Still, caping MK's glide is good since it limits his options; caping a glide means MK loses a lot of horizontal distance.

 

[:mad:]

Yeah, there's not much MK can do but waste all of his jumps, then shuttle loop. Which to the best of my knowledge, can be caped. It makes for hilarious footage. Although, dimensional cape could be an alternate option, if close enough to the edge.

 

[Judge Judy]

Yeah, there's not much MK can do but waste all of his jumps, then shuttle loop. Which to the best of my knowledge, can be caped. It makes for hilarious footage. Although, dimensional cape could be an alternate option, if close enough to the edge.

You can cape MK's dimensional cape.

 

[:mad:]

You can cape MK's dimensional cape.

No, what I'm saying is, it's a good alernative to shuttle loop. For me, I'm always expecting the loop, so I stay slightly above the Meta Knight.

I almost never expect a dimensional cape, so if they have good reaction time, they'll probably DC back.

 

[Judge Judy]

No, what I'm saying is, it's a good alernative to shuttle loop. For me, I'm always expecting the loop, so I stay slightly above the Meta Knight.

I almost never expect a dimensional cape, so if they have good reaction time, they'll probably DC back.

That's true, but DC is still a risky move for MK to use.

 

[:mad:]

Fighting offstage against Mario is a risky move for anyone.

 

[Famous]

I remember that a MK tried to gimp me offstage...He missed the Bair so he decides he wants to DC towards the ledge...Lol, I caped him before he dissappeard killing him at 12%...

Then I completely **** his second and third stock...

Lol, the match ended with me having 3 stock and 187% damage..

 

[:mad:]

Excellent post, Famous! I have to use this newfound knowledge in my next tourn - well, no. That wasb't that helpful, lol.

Just good for laughs.

 

[Famous]

Lol, sorry that post didn't contain any substance...

Here is something though...From what I played so far, MK mains vary from 3 type of playing styles..

1. Roll-DSmash Spammers
2. UpB-Dair Fanatics
3. All Around Gheyer

The roll dsmashers are very easy to predict...As soon as your high in damage(or maybe close to it) they will start to roll inside of your shield to Dsmash you... DO NOT attempt to punish them...Instead, walk away and wait for them to spot dodge, then punish them...It hard to avoid this in teams, but in singles MK's like these get *****...As for fighting these type of MK's in general, just camp them with fireballs until they approach you and basically remember what they do while they are in your face...because they're gonna be doing the same thing

The UpB-Dair fanatics are another story...Some Upb for no reason and camps with Dair(since Dair is dam near unpunishible)...I still haven't found a sure way to beat these types(I still beat them none the less)...All I do is wait until they get tired of Dairing and come fight me...If they try to hit me from the UpB glide attack I just Utilt out of shield...

NOTE; If they attempt this near a ledge I cape out of shield..It's an easy gimp if your fast enough


As for the all around gheyers....These types of people consists of M2K, Plank, Forte, KORNNN, Diem and so on...People who are just soo good that it seems ghey...I only manage to beat a few of them only a handful of times...(in friendlies mostly) The only way to beat them is to actually out play them in every way...I have no strategy for these types

 

[Judge Judy]

When dealing with MK's Dair you have two options: Outrange it or use an atk that comes out faster than it, which isn't many.

 

[Veggi]

I'd imagine you could up b MK while he's doing it, although it's possible he could dodge it and punish you, although MK can't punish very hard...

 

[:mad:]

I'd imagine you could up b MK while he's doing it, although it's possible he could dodge it and punish you, although MK can't punish very hard...

Actually, Meta Knight becomes predictable when they go for the easy dsmash if you approach. If you spotdodge, you have a few options. The standard dsmash for decent knockback, a potential kill, and damage. Ftilt, if you can manage, as well. Jab combo/cancel. You can even grab. And at lower percentages, you can go for a few utilts, if you're fast enough.

Meta Knight can punish. Dsmash, fair, and dair.

 

[fromundaman]

-RECOVERY
MK's Dair beats our upB. MK hits fast enough with his attacks to swat fireballs defending our recovery. Fludding MK away during recovery actually works very well since he's so light, but you must watch where you Fludd him. It could easily put him in position to ledgehog us, in which case you cape to wait out the invincibility, then upB. Fair during recovery, when uses sparingly, is viable as a mixup and could potentially take a stock off the MK. Capestalling is not safe...at all. Fair and Dair outrange cape. It only takes one to gimp Mario most times.

Actually, MK's sword doesn't clash with projectiles unless he's in glide attack, so he can't actually swat away fireballs. They work VERY well when you're coming from an upwards angle.



Question: Could you possibly FLUDD a tornado (which, as you know, sends them VERY high up), then try to cape gimp them during the freefall state?

 

[Famous]

Yup...he can't do anything while he's falling...The only thing MK can do is pray that we miss the cape

 

[Matt07]

I've only gimped MK a few times, I once gimped an MK I FLUDDED his Tornado and Caped him for a 'gimp' the chances of that happening are super low.

 

[:mad:]

I think we covered everything these is about Meta Knight, except his side-b. Are you gonna make a big guide out of this, or is it all for nothing?

In any case, should we start alphabetically, or pick the next character by vote?
I think we can start on a new character.

 

[Punishment Divine]

A good idea might be to bait his Shuttle Loop and then get under him with a uair. That's essentially what Marth does.

 

[Judge Judy]

I think we covered everything these is about Meta Knight, except his side-b. Are you gonna make a big guide out of this, or is it all for nothing?

In any case, should we start alphabetically, or pick the next character by vote?
I think we can start on a new character.

I'll try to put something together, but any suggestions would help.

 

[:mad:]

I'll try to put something together, but any suggestions would help.

Alright, we can make a final summary on Meta Knight, then move on.

And going against my own idea, I would love to do Dedede next. I played a Dedede main today and hilarity ensued, caped his last jump twice in one match, and got some great kills.

 

[Judge Judy]

Alright, but could you read the update on the OP and tell me what I should add?