Mario's Gimping Discussion! This Week: Zero Suit Samus

[Judge Judy]

I don't know the actual name for it, but down-b fliphop sounds silly.

I think it's called Flip Jump.

 

[:mad:]

Flip Jump?
I'll have to check. If caped, from the start, it has some considerable lag and can just be edgehogged.

 

[bobson]

I'm fairly certain she can footstool you out of the flipsy hoppity.

 

[Matt07]

I had one gimp where she recovered low, I meant to Cape stall the ledge and I Fireball'd instead and it worked.

There's a story from me . But Zero Suit Samus is uber hard to gimp.

 

[Judge Judy]

I'm surprised no one else has really inputted. Anyway, from what I've gathered, Zamus isn't hard to gimp when she's forced to rely on her tether, otherwise, she can be difficult.

 

[Matador]

Flip jump has invincibility on startup IIRC, so you can't do it from the beginning. It CAN be caped though, and pretty much reduces her recovery to Ivy or Oli at that point.

 

[:mad:]

Flip jump has invincibility on startup IIRC, so you can't do it from the beginning. It CAN be caped though, and pretty much reduces her recovery to Ivy or Oli at that point.

It has some considerable lag, and if caped from the start can put her a good distance away. Not sure if it's possible to cape before the invicibility frames, or even if it beats IFrames.

At that point, her DJ will only make up for her original position and you're free to edgehog. But I wouldn't really recommend caping the Flip unless you wanna get meteored. It's good to try if you're up a stock and wanna do something risky.

 

[Matador]

It has some considerable lag, and if caped from the start can put her a good distance away. Not sure if it's possible to cape before the invicibility frames, or even if it beats IFrames.

At that point, her DJ will only make up for her original position and you're free to edgehog. But I wouldn't really recommend caping the Flip unless you wanna get meteored. It's good to try if you're up a stock and wanna do something risky.

As long as you space yourself, the risk is minimal. The problem is being in range and reading the jump. Though it has a bit of ending lag, it's rather fast on startup.

 

[:mad:]

As long as you space yourself, the risk is minimal. The problem is being in range and reading the jump. Though it has a bit of ending lag, it's rather fast on startup.

I only say this because I'm not entirely sure if you can reverse it right away. I think there's a small window before the hitbox comes out where you can put her in a totally helpless state, seeing as how DJ + tether won't recover if a Mario's on the ledge.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Flip jump has invincibility on startup IIRC, so you can't do it from the beginning. It CAN be caped though, and pretty much reduces her recovery to Ivy or Oli at that point.

You're overlooking side-b. I'll get to that in a sec.

I said this in the match-up discussion and stand by it: ZSS is not ungimpable but it is very very difficult and you probably won't do it unless she screws up and tries to recover low (which she never should).

If she's forced to come low, grab the ledge but be careful, the Tether will spike edgehoggers (and it is awesome when it does). It should also be noted that she can control the direction of the flip jump, so if you cape her before, she can just FJ back the other way.

The real reason she's hard to gimp is because of her side-b, though. It has ridiculous horizontal distance and if she sees you approaching her, side-b will snap to the ledge before you can say "Fludd." If you ledge hog the side-b, she can still make it back with flipjump and can of course flipstool off any object, even edgehogging players.

 

[delo quicker]

caping is easily towards star fox characters.

 

[professor mgw]

not mines, only towards those easily distracted.certain people like ness is easy to cape **** though...

 

[Matador]

You're overlooking side-b. I'll get to that in a sec.

I said this in the match-up discussion and stand by it: ZSS is not ungimpable but it is very very difficult and you probably won't do it unless she screws up and tries to recover low (which she never should).

If she's forced to come low, grab the ledge but be careful, the Tether will spike edgehoggers (and it is awesome when it does). It should also be noted that she can control the direction of the flip jump, so if you cape her before, she can just FJ back the other way.

The real reason she's hard to gimp is because of her side-b, though. It has ridiculous horizontal distance and if she sees you approaching her, side-b will snap to the ledge before you can say "Fludd." If you ledge hog the side-b, she can still make it back with flipjump and can of course flipstool off any object, even edgehogging players.

Okay, so here's a scenario. I manage to land a fresh dsmash on you and knock you offstage at around 60% and you DI up and away to prevent bad recovery trajectory. You still have all of your jumps and I have a charged Fludd because of all the running away I did during the match...

You're floating toward the stage, and use your flippy jump, and I Fludd to reduce the range, then I grab the ledge and proceed to save my invincibility frames by using my capestall on the ledge. The way I see it, if your DJ doesn't make it onstage at this point and my invincibility frames from capestall prevent the upB spike, you're dead right?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Okay, so here's a scenario. I manage to land a fresh dsmash on you and knock you offstage at around 60% and you DI up and away to prevent bad recovery trajectory. You still have all of your jumps and I have a charged Fludd because of all the running away I did during the match...

You're floating toward the stage, and use your flippy jump, and I Fludd to reduce the range, then I grab the ledge and proceed to save my invincibility frames by using my capestall on the ledge. The way I see it, if your DJ doesn't make it onstage at this point and my invincibility frames from capestall prevent the upB spike, you're dead right?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Side-b. I side-b tether the edge (it can connect at a pretty wide angle and from very far away). If you hog, then I can flipjump and footstool you. ZSS' recovery is reactionary. ZSS just does not get gimped easily, sorry. Most of the arguments I see against this assume the other player is psychic or something and you already know which move I'm going to use before I use it. They're fast, two of them sweet spot (well, latch) the edge from ridiculous distances, and the flipjump is usually for mindgames or as a last resort. No one here has even mentioned her very high second jump.

 

[Matador]

Side-b. I side-b tether the edge (it can connect at a pretty wide angle and from very far away). If you hog, then I can flipjump and footstool you. ZSS' recovery is reactionary. ZSS just does not get gimped easily, sorry. Most of the arguments I see against this assume the other player is psychic or something and you already know which move I'm going to use before I use it. They're fast, two of them sweet spot (well, latch) the edge from ridiculous distances, and the flipjump is usually for mindgames or as a last resort. No one here has even mentioned her very high second jump.

Not psychic. Edgeguarding is all about predicting and forcing one of your few options while offstage (usually only 3 or 4) and punishing for it. Mario's rather adept at that. If you're knocked offstage, you can either airdodge, sideB, downB, DJ or...um...O_O

So in my scenario, from Mario's Dsmash offstage at your 60%, ZSS can instantly sideB and tether the stage? Assuming you're correct, then as soon as you knock ZSS offstage, the best thing to do is grab the ledge to force her to DJ and/or downB before we actually attempt to fireball, cape, Fludd and aerial to get you back away from the stage?

You also said that she can downB and FS Mario while he's on the ledge. Does the FS knock him off the ledge and put him in a tumbling animation or does it simply help her onstage?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In this scenario, I would not double jump. I would fast fall, DI toward the stage and try for a side-b on the edge. As an example, on Smashville, side-b sweetspots the edge from the edge of the screen, so pretty close to the blast zone. If you go for an edgehog, then I would flipjump footstool. To answer your question, it would just propel us toward the stage. It acts like a normal footstool if you're not edge hogging, however.

Edit: That isn't the only option she has, just a potential one. I could also try to recover high. I would never go low though. If you want the gimp, try to force a low recovery.

 

[Matador]

It all depends on how high you are. Dsmash at around 60% and perfect DI, you'll probably have room to do as you're suggesting since you could probably just DI toward the stage and grab the ledge without jumping.

The point I'm trying to illustrate is if we're on the ledge and you're far offstage, your only options are to DI toward the stage and DJ close enough to sideB us off the stage or downB FS to get back onstage without needing the tether. If we cape or knock you back offstage after you've used that DJ to get close, your recovery options are severely limited. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit:Perfect example here. Last stock 7:50

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

OK, if you guys think ZSS is easily gimped go ahead and gimp away. I'm done arguing about it. Snakeee recovered badly in that video, by the way. He should have double-jumped first instead of trying for side-b. The only time we get gimped is if we're vsing Sheik or we make a mistake.

 

[Matador]

OK, if you guys think ZSS is easily gimped go ahead and gimp away. I'm done arguing about it. Snakeee recovered badly in that video, by the way. He should have double-jumped first instead of trying for side-b. The only time we get gimped is if we're vsing Sheik or we make a mistake.

Calm down, I never even suggested ZSS gets gimped easily; I know that's not true. I'm just trying to get the facts. Don't be so defensive.

The second you came in, you said ZSS pretty much doesn't get gimped unless she goes low or screws up. I suppose you want us to just note that and move on?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Calm down, I never even suggested ZSS gets gimped easily; I know that's not true. I'm just trying to get the facts. Don't be so defensive.

The second you came in, you said ZSS pretty much doesn't get gimped unless she goes low or screws up. I suppose you want us to just note that and move on?

What? I'm not mad. I just don't like to argue, heh.

I was just saying she has a lot of options off stage compared to most characters that aren't floaters, and they are reactive options.

 

[Matador]

Fair enough, I think that's pretty much everything then.

 

[Matt07]

Judge, I think we're ready to move on to a new character. Discussion seems to be pretty much done for Zero Suit Samus.

 

[Judge Judy]

Judge, I think we're ready to move on to a new character. Discussion seems to be pretty much done for Zero Suit Samus.

Ok, who do you want?

 

[hippiedude92]

Ike please? lol. I'm too stupid enough and scared enough to go offstage to gimp ike so i wanna know the options again.

 

[Judge Judy]

Ike please? lol. I'm too stupid enough and scared enough to go offstage to gimp ike so i wanna know the options again.

Cape > Ike's recovery

FLUDD > Aether

FLUDD + Cape > Ike's recovery

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

FLUDD Ike's Up-B, and there's a gimp.

EDIT: Darnit Judge got to it before me.