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Mario Questions and Answers; Ask here first!

Z'zgashi

Smash Legend
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ZzgashiZzShy
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As someone with a lot of Sonic experience by playing X, try your best to stay out of mid range. Up close, you should be able to beat him with your bair, jab, dair, etc, and long range you'll have time to react to what he does and throw fireballs, mid range is the area where you usually get caught in his mix ups. Now, while I said long range is fine, you only want to go there if you get caught mid range and need to escape while he prepares to spin dash. Approaching a Sonic while he's charging spindash is usually a bad idea, so camp him out of it and get up close again once he tries to reset. It usually takes a while to get into a good Sonic's face, so be patient and sit back, forcing him to drop his spindash and/or approach with your fireballs.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,311
Let's say I have a $30 MM character locked Mario vs. Luigi MM this weekend (I'm using Mario, my opponent is using Luigi)

What stages should I strike to?

What should I be looking for MUwise (details help)?

What stage should I ban?

What stage should I CP?

When am I in kill percent against Luigi?

Any info would help :)
 

Famous

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
2,271
Location
On the Runway
You can't really CP Luigi without CPing yourself...He can kill you a 4x% if your DI is below average(Even moreso on Delfino) Bait Tornadoes and Punish. Gimp his recovery as much as possible. I always go Battlefield/FD/Smashville


Strike any stage that fuks over Mario's Recovery or stages your not too good on. Ban Delfino/Ban Delfino/Ban Delfino.
 

steep

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
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Columbus, IN
As someone with a lot of Sonic experience by playing X, try your best to stay out of mid range. Up close, you should be able to beat him with your bair, jab, dair, etc, and long range you'll have time to react to what he does and throw fireballs, mid range is the area where you usually get caught in his mix ups. Now, while I said long range is fine, you only want to go there if you get caught mid range and need to escape while he prepares to spin dash. Approaching a Sonic while he's charging spindash is usually a bad idea, so camp him out of it and get up close again once he tries to reset. It usually takes a while to get into a good Sonic's face, so be patient and sit back, forcing him to drop his spindash and/or approach with your fireballs.
This is pretty much right on. I play Rogueblades a lot as well and he agrees that fireballs shut down most of sonic's spindash shenanigans. Also, autojab clashes with spindash pretty consistently, which puts you in a great position, since when it clashes you will be in close range, where your CQC game whoops sonic.

Don't forget about grab release at the ledge autokills sonics who love to up b right by the ledge because it is impossible for sonic to sweetspot the ledge unless he hits it at the very top of his jump. Rogueblades said that too many sonics get away with that right now. Just shield grab him as he rises. Sonic can only air dodge or attack out of up b so shielding covers the attack option and you can punish fairly easily if they air dodge. And if they do nothing, you can grab and profit from an instant kill grab release.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
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Bowie, MD
Let's say I have a $30 MM character locked Mario vs. Luigi MM this weekend (I'm using Mario, my opponent is using Luigi)

What stages should I strike to?

What should I be looking for MUwise (details help)?

What stage should I ban?

What stage should I CP?

When am I in kill percent against Luigi?

Any info would help :)
It's already been said, but for further emphasis' sake, don't go aggressive AT ALL against Luigi. Trades WILL happen since you both have a lot of the same frame data same general range, but stuff like Luigi's nair and bair will not trade in your favor because he kills earlier than Mario and his attacks put you into better positions for follow-ups. Instead, play a heavy zoning game. Fireballs, bair, jab, utilt, ftilt, and the occasional Fsmash will work wonders. Abuse your OOS options where applicable...just be careful with upB for obvious reasons. Pursue damage only when he's offstage or on a read. Other than that, just zone the **** out of him.

Usmash is GREAT in this match-up for punishing landings since it will cleanly beat all of his aerials and he can't maneuver all that well through the air. Charge it for airdodges, let it fly if he tries to power through the nair or dair or something.

Don't underestimate the strength of caping his fireballs. They help him close in space, and caping denies that every time.

Jab cancels are still useful, just be wary that Luigi's are better, lol. It's technically the same move that positions better. Same speed, same dmg IIRC.

Our Fsmash is really good here because Luigi's traction makes it really safe on shield. It also beats all of his attacks as far as range and priority go because of the disjoint. At mid-range, it's incredible. Just don't whiff it, lol.

I haven't really tried this much, but Uthrow may be a better choice for damage than Dthrow at low percentages vs Luigi. It does more base dmg (9%) and though it positions him hier up than dthrow, you won't have to worry about him nairing through follow-ups. His airspeed won't really allow him to avoid punishment on his landing, and Usmash/Utilt will be good from below too. Give it a try on your own and see how you like it.

Luigi is good where we are, generally. Your best bet will just be to go wherever you're comfortable. FD MIGHT work since you don't want him closing space easily, but regardless of where you go, he'll combo and kill leagues better than you. Just remember that you can abuse his weaker approach options and lack of a great defense well. FLUDD is also stops green missle completely, if you weren't aware. It may help you when he's recovering.

His Fsmash will kill around 90% with DI and upB around 50 or 60%. His nair kills around 125% with DI but that depends on your positioning. Bthrow kills around 150% I think. Usmash is weird...sometimes I've seen it kill later than Mario's (around 140%) and sometimes I've seen it kill way lower (110%). Just assume it's the latter and you'll be fine.

Best of luck
 

TMario

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
137
Alright, I really need help... or at least ideas.

I train with a buddy, we're really close in talent. The difference is I really only play Mario while he has Yoshi, Lucas, Pikachu, and King Dedede. My Mario can take basically everything he throws at me EXCEPT D3.

D3 has great dtilt range, hammer range, beastly utilt, and a good bair. When it comes to any attack, he always gets me with a shield-grab. And if I camp with fireballs, he camps with minions, which help block fireballs plus have lightning, will kick me around, GORDO (even though I found I can CAPE Gordo!!)

If I ever get in a lucky hit, I can usually combo a decent amount, but killing blows are rough to get.

Basically, I'm asking,
"how do you guys personally fight D3"
"how do you approach when he's campy"
"anything to do to stop/prevent/counter shield grab"

Sorry if all of these have been discussed. I used the search thing on this thread, I couldn't find much. And the various matchup threads have been a bit useful, but my SH dairs have been getting shield grabbed too :(
 

Coolwhip

Smash Champion
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D3 is one bad matchup for mario to the point where it isn't fun.
Recently, i made a D3 vs. mario matchup thread.
The discussion when on for about weeks. Go check it out!

Some tips....

-Fireball approach D3
-Try to rack up some damage till kill % (Save your f-smash)
-Play defense as much as you can
-Count D3 jumps (D3 has about five jumps) then cape his up-b
 

TMario

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
137
You have a specific Mario vs D3 thread?? Can you post a link, I'm not finding it... :/

I just feel his camp is better than mine, damn minions... so basically continue w/ fireballs but better...

Five jumps eh? I feel like that's a really simple idea that I have just not been doing at all. Thanks!
 

Inferno3044

Smash Master
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Teaneck, NJ/Richmond VA
I would just camp D3 and not approach unless I really need to. Hit him safely so you can't get grabbed. Dair is a good option to poke his shield and get a couple of hits in.
 

Coolwhip

Smash Champion
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You have a specific Mario vs D3 thread?? Can you post a link, I'm not finding it... :/

I just feel his camp is better than mine, damn minions... so basically continue w/ fireballs but better...

Five jumps eh? I feel like that's a really simple idea that I have just not been doing at all. Thanks!
Search forms > coolwhip > show threads
 

BSP

Smash Legend
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
10,246
Location
Louisiana
It took me this long to realize that camping center stage on smaller stages with Mario and Luigi is really effective

If you're Mario vs. Luigi, camp the middle hard. He's going to have trouble getting past FBs, jabs, tilts, and Usmashes if he tries to Bair through.
 

steep

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
1,013
Location
Columbus, IN
This probably seems really elementary, but it is entirely possible to footstool someone who is in shield right? If so, could we short hop uair D3 and get a footstool off him into a second jump dair for combos that are safe against shield grab? Just a thought.

Also, fireball approaching D3 is awesome when used intelligently, but it's not something that can be abused recklessly. If they just shield the fireball they can still shield grab you if you aren't careful, and fireballs have like no hitstun so make sure your combo is spot-on with the fireball hit before you try to follow up with something else. If you are getting shield grabbed all the time you probably aren't mixing it up enough and are attacking his shield too often. I had that problem against all characters for a while because I committed to attacking every time I approached, which was bad and now I'm working on unlearning that habit. Try more approach mixups, such as running toward them and b reverse fireball away instead of attacking their shield, then stutter step fsmash if he goes for the grab. Retreating bair is really good against D3 too because he can't really follow you too closely while you retreat if you do it right, which then lets you get to a good camping position. Short empty hops can also be good mixups, and cape stall to bair (or cape stall to fast fall grounded dair to ftilt if you can react to the grab fast enough so that he can't buffer a shield after the missed grab) can be a good mindgame if he tries to grab your landings.
 

TMario

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
137
Steep, youre right. I haven't really been baiting that grab attempt correctly... specifically using empty airs or cape to bairs, which I use against everyone else, Idk why I wasn't doing it for D3. *smack head*

Just an update, played all night my Mario vs a buddy's D3... every 7 matches, maybe got 2 or 3 wins... I know it's not an impressive record, but that's the first 2 or 3 wins I've really gotten in this matchup.

So seriously, big thanks to you guys.
 

steep

Smash Lord
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Messages
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No prob man. Keep it up. The people you play often are the hardest to beat. Just try to stay unpredictable at all times and you'll win more and more often. :D
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
Joined
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Messages
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Bowie, MD
Should I use my Usmash vs Peach for anti-airs or save it for kills? I see benefits for both and can't really decide.
 

BoTastic!

Smash Master
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Should I use my Usmash vs Peach for anti-airs or save it for kills? I see benefits for both and can't really decide.
The answer is you need to get on AIM more often, lol.

But in all seriousness. I do what I can against peach to keep her out the air. It's best to save your Usmash but it's your easiest way to kill aerial characters like Peach. This is just the way I see it. Coming from someone who plays Wario often. I can only hit him with Usmash half the time and I need to save it to kill.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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The answer is you need to get on AIM more often, lol.

But in all seriousness. I do what I can against peach to keep her out the air. It's best to save your Usmash but it's your easiest way to kill aerial characters like Peach. This is just the way I see it. Coming from someone who plays Wario often. I can only hit him with Usmash half the time and I need to save it to kill.
Lol, alright. I've actually been pretty active on Skype instead...that's mainly why I'm never on AIM. I'll just get on both tho.

Yeah, that's the dilemma I'm talking about. Should I be more focused on being able to kill her when she's in kill range or limiting/punishing her options? I'm thinking the latter since she's so light anyways...utilt kills at like 145%. Usmash is just so good against her tho...

Is it really important to learn mario's frame data?
It'll explain a lot of things. Frame data helps u get a grasp of the game and why some moves beat yours or why some of your combo strings connect so often. At the very least, take a look at them. It's not something that you have to think about in the moments before or during a tourney set.

It's moreso for just finding out why certain things do and don't work. This includes studying invincibility frames, ending lag, RCO lag, and all that kinda stuff.

For example, about a year ago, I had this D3 that would CG me before I had gotten rid of my RCO lag from grabbing the ledge. I didn't know that D3 could actually combo his Dthrow into Usmash if Mario had to incur RCO lag. It took me awhile to figure out whether or not I could shield or upB or something out of it before Usmash landed.
 

Inferno3044

Smash Master
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Teaneck, NJ/Richmond VA
Like everyone said, frame data is important to know the speed of things. For example, if your opponent's move has about 15 frames of startup and hits on frame 18 (standard reaction time is about 10-12 frames iirc) you can possibly hit them with a move that hits on frame 6 or lower (jab, Dmash, ftlit, UpB, etc.) It lets you mathematically know your options.
 

- rko -

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 18, 2011
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I was juss wonderin, is it possible to buffer upb Fox' dair & utilt juggles almost everytime he lands it? Cuz if so, that mu is definitely a lil in our favor.
 

steep

Smash Lord
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rko I think you might be able to pull that off but you must be careful cus they might be able to shield it and punish with usmash, etc. Gotta be smart with that up b.
 

- rko -

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Hmmm, I see. But I dnt think Fox shielding is such a big factor seeing that hitstun in brawl is low and up b is so freakin fast. xD
 

- rko -

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Not even a slight advantage? I mean I kno Fox is legit but taking away his dair & utilt combos would result in a slight advantage for us seeing that we take away his best damage dealers.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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Hmmm, I see. But I dnt think Fox shielding is such a big factor seeing that hitstun in brawl is low and up b is so freakin fast. xD
It only works if you catch him trying to Utilt more times than he is actually able to. If the Fox decides to utilt, then shield to bait out an upB, then you're pretty much caught if YOU try upB. He gets to pull out his shield before we're able to upB because he utilt gives him frame advantage.

Dair, I'm not so sure about.

But with Utilt strings, you may be able to try and upB out of utilt strings every once in awhile. If he's trying to utilt string you, you're likely not KO percent yet, so his punish won't kill you if he predicts your upB and shields accordingly.

Nair would prolly work just as well in that situation too, AFAIK.
 

Jimmyfosho

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Being sarcastic and pointing out the obvious.
Not even a slight advantage? I mean I kno Fox is legit but taking away his dair & utilt combos would result in a slight advantage for us seeing that we take away his best damage dealers.
We're always forced to approach him due to his lasers, and since he kills so much earlier than us (well not adding in cape ***** / gimps and such) I don't think the whole up b thing doesn't make that much of a difference.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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Fox doesn't kill much earlier than us, lol. He's one of the lightest characters in the game. Usmash kills us around like 100%. Our Usmash kills him at like 120%. Fsmash kills even lower, especially near the ledge. Even Utilt and Bthrow kill around 145%. He wins in the killing department due to how easily he can land Usmash OOS, but we're not left in the dust.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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Not really, lol. Not enough to warrant a "he kills so much earlier than us" type of statement. 20% is a pummel + bthrow and some change. I'm just saying that we keep up in the killing department pretty well...we lose this match-up for different reasons, imo.

I'd say that for Snake, DK, D3, maybe Wolf, Luigi, and Bowser. But not Fox. He's so light, lol.
 

- rko -

Smash Apprentice
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The reason I was thinkin bout this was cuz last time I played a fox he couldnt get any dairs ( unless frameperfect ) or moar than 2 utilts on me cuz of me buffering upb almost everytime I got hit. But then again, the fox was quite rusty and a lil off his game. But thnx for the input guyz. Imma look moar in to it the upcoming week and hopefully get sumtin good out of it
 
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