DtJ XeroXen
The biggest fraud
Or possibly an earlier build where it was possible to do it. Perhaps it led to glitches or something and they just took it out?
Or mistranslation from "cancelled by shield", lol.
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Mario Questions and Answers; Ask here first!
- Thread starter :mad:
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Or mistranslation from "cancelled by shield", lol.
- rko -
Smash Apprentice
Hey guys, I need some help with the Marth MU REALLY BAD. I find MK an easier MU than Marth, but thats just me, because I just **** MK now due to MU knowledge. But Marth is sooo annoying, so please help me, cause Im tired of beating MKs at tourneys but then getting knocked out by Marths.
If you're ****** MKs at IRL tourneys with Mario, then you are either Godly or facing ****ty MKs.
Marth MU is horrible. Almost as bad as MK. Play carefully and patient. Make the Marth whiff fair and back air him as a punish. Stutter step fsmash outranges Marth's fsmash. Keep the match onstage. MAINTAIN YOUR LEAD.
Marth MU is horrible. Almost as bad as MK. Play carefully and patient. Make the Marth whiff fair and back air him as a punish. Stutter step fsmash outranges Marth's fsmash. Keep the match onstage. MAINTAIN YOUR LEAD.
- rko -
Smash Apprentice
Thanks Skidd. And LoL, I wish I was godly. The MKs here are pretty good, they all know their stuff, so maybe I should have not used the word ****, I just do well vs MK, almost as if the MU is even. Luckily for me, they dont know Mario as well as their stuff. xD
ThatGuy
Smash Master
Can you please specify what you have difficulty with when facing Marth?
Coolwhip
Smash Champion
Thats it.....i wanna see videos of ur mario vs. these mk's you speak of
since you said the mu "almost feel even"
- rko -
Smash Apprentice
Fair.... Thats pretty much the ONLY move that I cant get around and makes me wanna ragequit all together. Marths other two signature move dtilt and sideB dont bother me that much. Its just that damn fair that beats everything I have. @Coolwhip: Ill try to get a good match against Mr.Rs MK or any other good MK player that can record in the nearby future.
ThatGuy
Smash Master
So it's the basic stumper, he jumps and does a lot of Fairs, normally done while moving away so he's out of range for a punish, correct?
A lot of this can be cured through powershielding. The timing of his Fair will usually be pretty predictable, so you can run up and powershield the Fair into ftilt, uair, utilt, or grab if you're close enough. If he does fair while approaching you can easily just shield it, just watch out for airdodge mixups.
Try to get under the Marth, and even slightly behind, and use utilts, pivot grabs, and shield to punish. Don't fear his Bair, it lasts much longer and lags more, so it's pretty easy to defend. If he does SH fairs to try and prevent this, powershielding once again solves this, although you can usually stuff a bair in with good timing.
Feel free to FLUDD sometimes to toss him a bit further airborne and throw off the spacing (and induce FIHL).
Lastly, what you should not do here is rely on fireballs too much. They get swatted very easily and will normally get you punished during cooldown. Focus instead on the timings of your opponent and getting your strikes in between.
A lot of this can be cured through powershielding. The timing of his Fair will usually be pretty predictable, so you can run up and powershield the Fair into ftilt, uair, utilt, or grab if you're close enough. If he does fair while approaching you can easily just shield it, just watch out for airdodge mixups.
Try to get under the Marth, and even slightly behind, and use utilts, pivot grabs, and shield to punish. Don't fear his Bair, it lasts much longer and lags more, so it's pretty easy to defend. If he does SH fairs to try and prevent this, powershielding once again solves this, although you can usually stuff a bair in with good timing.
Feel free to FLUDD sometimes to toss him a bit further airborne and throw off the spacing (and induce FIHL).
Lastly, what you should not do here is rely on fireballs too much. They get swatted very easily and will normally get you punished during cooldown. Focus instead on the timings of your opponent and getting your strikes in between.
- rko -
Smash Apprentice
Thanks for that little summary, TG. I will definitely try to powershield the fairs a bit more and punish accordingly. And hell, if it doesent work out, I will just use my secondary Fox and Usmash that tiara wearing douche back to his origin. xD
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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- A2ZOMG
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I don't even try to powershield. In general Marth's F-air isn't nearly as scary once you stop letting it shield stab you and once you get more confident in your own footsies. His D-tilt and DB used intelligently will be far more annoying to deal with imo, especially if he properly B reverses the latter. And the other gay thing about D-tilt is he ducks under a lot of things while crouching.
Occasionally his N-air makes me throw fits when it kills me off a shieldstab, but seriously, what makes Marth threatening is when he has his ground tools mastered. That and his edgetrapping. Then again you have some really awesome Jab cancels on him (he's probably in the top 5 of easiest characters for Mario to do Jab cancel combos on) and he isn't particularly hard to edgeguard.
Occasionally his N-air makes me throw fits when it kills me off a shieldstab, but seriously, what makes Marth threatening is when he has his ground tools mastered. That and his edgetrapping. Then again you have some really awesome Jab cancels on him (he's probably in the top 5 of easiest characters for Mario to do Jab cancel combos on) and he isn't particularly hard to edgeguard.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
Obviously, it'd prolly benefit you to learn banana control if you aren't already amazing at it, but just try to get overall good chemistry with whoever the Diddy is. Some Diddy players require tons of space to work, while others can control their space well. Do a bunch of practice games and see if u get in each other's way a lot. If so, try to either give him his space or play support for him.
You're probably going to need to be netting slightly earlier kills from gimps and Usmash/Fsmash, so keep that in mind.
Can't think of anything else at the moment, Skidd. Best of luck to you, and let us know how it went!
You're probably going to need to be netting slightly earlier kills from gimps and Usmash/Fsmash, so keep that in mind.
Can't think of anything else at the moment, Skidd. Best of luck to you, and let us know how it went!
- rko -
Smash Apprentice
YoO guys, I was just wondering if soft hit ff nair>utilt is a viable setup at low/mid percentage.
ThatGuy
Smash Master
Depending how late you hit the Nair. Jabs, Ftilt, and Dsmash work, I can't see why Utilt wouldn't. This would connect most reliably when your opponent tries to sidestep, I would think.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
I play snake and I'm teaming with a mario. tips/strats?
JuxtaposeX
Smash Lord
use FLUDD to push snake's fsmash into someone :D
ThatGuy
Smash Master
I've had a lot of success with this team in the past. Since most Mario players try to play aggressively (it's not like they can do much else in teams), try to play a bit more passive. Don't throw out random hitboxes if your teammate is going to get shafted for it too. Always have a C4 out somewhere. If you're both on one side and you have control of a platform, have the Mario on the platform and the Snake below, and fireball/grenade/FLUDD at will until they approach (which should be insane tough). And as a Snake, you're in charge of most of the KOing, so save that Utilt if you can.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
Heavy hitters are good for Mario. They live long and they deliver the final blow that Mario has trouble doing. Let him deal the damage and you go for the kill. Stock tanking is nice, but Mario isn't that light. He can live to pretty nice percentages.
Personally I love teaming with DK. Snake is really nice too. Am willing to try teaming with a D3.
Personally I love teaming with DK. Snake is really nice too. Am willing to try teaming with a D3.
- rko -
Smash Apprentice
Ah, I see. So this could possibly be a frametrap at low/mid percentage like say Foxes drill>uptilt, rite?
Jimmyfosho
Smash Hero
Does Mario have anything out of GR against ness?
Inferno3044
Smash Master
I know you can GR > Ftilt. Sometimes you can Dsmash if he gets GR'd close to you, but I don't know how to influence that.Does Mario have anything out of GR against ness?
Cezz624
Smash Apprentice
Does anybody know what to do if a Metaknight spams Mach Tornado? I once played a Metaknight online that spammed Mach Tornado. All I was able to do was shield and run away and stuff. When he stopped, I started to up-tilt, f-tilt, up-air, back air, and PPK and a couple of D-smashes (saving that f-smash). I was able to at least survive until sudden death, I cape stalled to try to KO him. Sometimes I outplayed him, but sometimes he got me. This was repeated for about 2-hours until he left. So, all I'm saying is, how can you dodge that damn Mach Tornado if a Metaknight spams it? Or is shielding, dodging and running away all Mario can do?
ThatGuy
Smash Master
Nado Tools 101:
-Using a Nair directly from above, falling exactly in the top-center of the tornado (there's no room for error here). The final hit of Dair in this exact location also works but is obviously much tougher to time. Other aerials generally don't work because they have too little priority or require Mario to extend himself within the Tornado's hitbox, which generally just doesn't work out. Fireballs that land in this exact location also halt the tornado, but is pretty tough to nail consistently.
-A Usmash facing towards the tornado will clobber it, it's personally my most reliable punish. Your face will travel through (and outprioritize) all the nado hitboxes and smack MK in the center. If you're running away, you can do a reverse Usmash (Run->Input other direction->Jump->Usmash before you leave the ground->Charge if necessary (optional)).
-FLUDD will push MK upwards, keeping you safe from the nado and offering an opportunity to punish. I would only recommend using at least 1/2 charged FLUDD or more, as too little water won't get him high enough (and too little range to work with).
-Some people suggest using grounded UpB (Out of shield or otherwise...) for its startup invincibility frames. I personally never do this, because (much) more often than not my invincibility doesn't last long enough to ping MK, and my UpB gets trapped and outprioritized by the swirling hitboxes, thus sending me upwards with RCO lag waiting for my landing. But if you can make this work then have fun with it.
-You can cape the nado from the upper corner if you space the cape very well. Often this may lead to a free stock.
-If you're stuck in shield, more often than not you're forced to wait it out (tilt shield up!). If you think he will stay on top of you, hold the shield and punish OOS when it ends. If you think he'll retreat towards the end of the move, roll in the direction you think he'll go to before the move ends. Use the Cstick to roll so you can tilt your shield up while rolling.
Wow, so many tools, and from all sorts of angles!
Things to watch out for:
-The main problem is that all these tools require time and space to set up. If the MK starts up Nado pretty close to you, it's near impossible to do any of these on reaction. You need to rely on hard reads and anticipation to land them in those circumstances.
-The most reliable tools are grounded. If you're in the air (and not so high that it would never hit you), you're boned. Mario is too floaty to have a chance to airdodge through it. He has no aerials to break through, and often your safest choice is to waste a double jump if you haven't already. This is why the matchup is so ridiculous: Mario cannot SH fireball (or SH anything) without the MK being able to nado on reaction. But MK's ground game (Dash attack, dash grab, walk up ftilt) make Mario look like a joke character. Additionally, when you use the DJ, he stops the nado, and has an advantageous position because you have to make it back down safely, while he has uair/ridiculous ground speed/more nados.
-You can't sidestep through the nado to preserve shield unless he moves away from you during the sidestep animation.
Sorry for the rambling, this is everything I know about MK's tornado. I still have problems dealing with his everything else (UpB OoS, dtilt, and dashgrabs mainly).
-Using a Nair directly from above, falling exactly in the top-center of the tornado (there's no room for error here). The final hit of Dair in this exact location also works but is obviously much tougher to time. Other aerials generally don't work because they have too little priority or require Mario to extend himself within the Tornado's hitbox, which generally just doesn't work out. Fireballs that land in this exact location also halt the tornado, but is pretty tough to nail consistently.
-A Usmash facing towards the tornado will clobber it, it's personally my most reliable punish. Your face will travel through (and outprioritize) all the nado hitboxes and smack MK in the center. If you're running away, you can do a reverse Usmash (Run->Input other direction->Jump->Usmash before you leave the ground->Charge if necessary (optional)).
-FLUDD will push MK upwards, keeping you safe from the nado and offering an opportunity to punish. I would only recommend using at least 1/2 charged FLUDD or more, as too little water won't get him high enough (and too little range to work with).
-Some people suggest using grounded UpB (Out of shield or otherwise...) for its startup invincibility frames. I personally never do this, because (much) more often than not my invincibility doesn't last long enough to ping MK, and my UpB gets trapped and outprioritized by the swirling hitboxes, thus sending me upwards with RCO lag waiting for my landing. But if you can make this work then have fun with it.
-You can cape the nado from the upper corner if you space the cape very well. Often this may lead to a free stock.
-If you're stuck in shield, more often than not you're forced to wait it out (tilt shield up!). If you think he will stay on top of you, hold the shield and punish OOS when it ends. If you think he'll retreat towards the end of the move, roll in the direction you think he'll go to before the move ends. Use the Cstick to roll so you can tilt your shield up while rolling.
Wow, so many tools, and from all sorts of angles!
Things to watch out for:
-The main problem is that all these tools require time and space to set up. If the MK starts up Nado pretty close to you, it's near impossible to do any of these on reaction. You need to rely on hard reads and anticipation to land them in those circumstances.
-The most reliable tools are grounded. If you're in the air (and not so high that it would never hit you), you're boned. Mario is too floaty to have a chance to airdodge through it. He has no aerials to break through, and often your safest choice is to waste a double jump if you haven't already. This is why the matchup is so ridiculous: Mario cannot SH fireball (or SH anything) without the MK being able to nado on reaction. But MK's ground game (Dash attack, dash grab, walk up ftilt) make Mario look like a joke character. Additionally, when you use the DJ, he stops the nado, and has an advantageous position because you have to make it back down safely, while he has uair/ridiculous ground speed/more nados.
-You can't sidestep through the nado to preserve shield unless he moves away from you during the sidestep animation.
Sorry for the rambling, this is everything I know about MK's tornado. I still have problems dealing with his everything else (UpB OoS, dtilt, and dashgrabs mainly).
Cezz624
Smash Apprentice
Thanks, ThatGuy, now I got something it work on.
ThatGuy
Smash Master
Simple B reversal: Move while facing forward in the air, press neutral B, jam the other direction.
Wavebounce: Move while facing backward in the air, press neutral B, jam in the same backwards direction you were moving, then jam back the other way.
RAR Wavebounce: Run forward, jam backward, press jump, press neutral B, jam forward, jam backwards.
EDIT: You can do this with capes too,, just replace 'neutral b' with 'over b in the direction Mario is facing'. It's just much trickier to use them properly lol.
Wavebounce: Move while facing backward in the air, press neutral B, jam in the same backwards direction you were moving, then jam back the other way.
RAR Wavebounce: Run forward, jam backward, press jump, press neutral B, jam forward, jam backwards.
EDIT: You can do this with capes too,, just replace 'neutral b' with 'over b in the direction Mario is facing'. It's just much trickier to use them properly lol.
ThatGuy
Smash Master
Thanks Skidd 
I live to serve!
/drunk
I live to serve!/drunk
ItoI6
Smash Journeyman
When I ftilt sometimes I slide backward and I have no idea why and I've tried to recreate it but cant. Does anyone know of this or how to do it?
ThatGuy
Smash Master
Yes, and yes. There is a very specific timing window for this. Do the ftilt. Immediately after the kicking foot touches the ground, input anything and you'll have slid back. Practice with jabbing after the ftilt.
Ftilt has IASA before this timing window, which means if you don't slide back, I would bet it's because you entered your next input too early. Wait a bit longer for the input until you see results.
The cause of this is (I programmatically assume!) the state of Mario's animation during the cancel. His leg being so far back forces the rest of his character to re-orient himself when you use another move. Similar behavior appears with other characters (such as Peach's dtilt).
DtJ XeroXen
The biggest fraud
How dare you programmatically assume things that nobody would understand.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2007
- Messages
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- A2ZOMG
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If I get bored (and a Wii for that matter), I might just do random frame data testing just so you know what frame Mario can slide during F-tilt. Not something you actually want to practice though.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
Also lol @ MK being banned.
Fire!
Smash Champion
Writing/Updating a guide would be better.
I say that because you have a strength for it.
JuxtaposeX
Smash Lord
We only have 4 0:100 MU's now