Mario mains...we have a problem

[Matador]

So we're evolving the metagame, making vids, attending tourneys, and creating matchup charts trying to figure out exactly how good Mario can be competitively. We've discovered the relevence of wavesliding with Ftilt, cape gliding, Fsmash stutter stepping, and defended the capabilities of Fludd to the ends of the earth. Mario has been buffed to the point where he's capable of so much more than in melee, even being one of the best imo.

But now...

Comes along this newcomer. His name is ddd. He brought with him the worst thing that could possibly happen to Mario. He brought with him an infinite. This has created a matchup far worse than the Mario vs Marth of melee, and the Mario vs G&W/MK of brawl. This has created a matchup where 1 grab = death. A FLAWLESS game is required to even contend with a ddd even remotely close in skill to yours. He's now your ultimate counterpick.

This technique will not be banned. My sig has proof of the views of those who make the rules in the backroom.

As it stands now, Mario will never win another tourney because of this matchup. But I refuse to quit without exhausting my resources to find a strategy, AT, or a simple method that'd give me even the slightest chance of defeating an enemy ddd. What say you fellow Mario mains?

 

[boss8]

thats y i counter pick GaW

 

[Matador]

thats y i counter pick GaW

Yeah, good idea. But doesn't it bother you that everytime you pick mario, ddd is going to be your counterpick since he's pretty much your ultimate counter? And that everytime he's picked, you're in for a nearly impossible matchup?

Mario's not going to win many tourneys alone because of this, and won't rise in tier lists.

 

[boss8]

Yeah, good idea. But doesn't it bother you that everytime you pick mario, ddd is going to be your counterpick since he's pretty much your ultimate counter? And that everytime he's picked, you're in for a nearly impossible matchup?

Mario's not going to win many tourneys alone because of this, and won't rise in tier lists.

it depends on the deedeedee if its m2k....azen or chillindude...or chu then i will use GaW...but other wise i will use luigi or mario...

after a while top tiers get overpassed anyways

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

after a while top tiers get overpassed anyways

Yeah..sorta like you over passing my match requests via Wifi!!!! BOSS!!!!(sounding like Wesley Snipes saying "Frost!!!" in Blade part 1 ) I WANT MY WIFI MATCH!!!

 

[smashbro29]

This sucks funny thing I came to the boards just now to find a defense against this.

 

[Matador]

This sucks funny thing I came to the boards just now to find a defense against this.

That's what I'm suggesting we create. Apparently Boss has a strategy against non-pro ddds. Care to tell us what you'd do in that matchup with mario Boss?

 

[smashbro29]

this is exactly why this game needs DLC.

 

[ElectroBlooper]

Originally Posted by boss8
it depends on the deedeedee if its m2k....azen or chillindude...or chu then i will use GaW...but other wise i will use luigi or mario...

It really doesn't take the best smashers in the world to pull these techniques off. Any serious DDD mainer can probably do all the infinites pretty well. If you try them out in training, you'll see that they wouldn't be that hard to master.

Yeah, infinite CG sucks a lot and DDD vs any of the unlucky 5 is pretty much impossible if they execute the infinite properly. The only consolation I can think of is that you can counterpick when facing DDD mainers and that people using DDD as a counterpick are less likely to have learned the infinites. Of course, this will become less and less true as Mario and DK rise on the tier lists. Just don't use Mario against DDD at tournament level - you really don't have much of a chance.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

You have my sympathies, if this turns out to be truly inescapable (and I'm not saying it isn't; I'm saying I don't know enough about Mario vs. Dedede to make statements of fact either way). This would be one more unfortunate side effect of Sakurai not caring about proper balance and quality-assurance testing, in favor of 'casual joy.' The irony is that in not caring, he seems to have given rise to Snake, Metaknight, and Dedede experts occasionally going into With Anyone mode to just pick on the noobs. I can only imagine how utterly angry they are.

I can imagine Mario mainers (I use him as a 'fun character') are feeling pretty rotten right now, too. If you guys do somehow find a miracle solution to Dedede's infinite (whatever it may be, precisely, in Mario's case... can someone explain it to me?), please do publish it and make it very blatantly visible. I'll be eager to see it, because Mario's tweaked design in Brawl was one of those things that really interested me during the pre-release hype.

 

[boss8]

Yeah..sorta like you over passing my match requests via Wifi!!!! BOSS!!!!(sounding like Wesley Snipes saying "Frost!!!" in Blade part 1 ) I WANT MY WIFI MATCH!!!

u never aim messaged me

mine is shadowmnvol3

 

[Takeshi245]

At this point, all you can do is know/hope that the player is worse than you since some characters are better than others. I'd use Marth, Pit, or Metaknight if I knew that player was on par with my skill level. Just pick a better character or find out an escape to the infinite. Would caping work?

 

[boss8]

At this point, all you can do is know/hope that the player is worse than you since some characters are better than others. I'd use Marth, Pit, or Metaknight if I knew that player was on par with my skill level. Just pick a better character or find out an escape to the infinite. Would caping work?

it's gay but the waddle dees D3 throws take the hits for him......dont approach D3 let him attack you..

 

[???????]

To be honest, I'm somewhat surprised no one has made a mention of this earlier (Especially during the controversy surrounding the Ness/Lucas infinites) but luckily Mario isn't an easy match-up for King DeDeDe; Mario plays fairly well against King DeDeDe in general. King DeDeDe's infinite is worse than the Ice Climbers' since Ice Climbers' has a true weakness that allows you to prevent/avoid theirs, but you'll only really have to worry about being shield grabbed since Mario can out maneuver King DeDeDe well enough where he can avoid being an easy grab target most of the time; we'll have to come up with a strategy that literally constitutes the idea "Don't get grabbed" (It sounds harsh, but luckily the match-up is more in your favor than it seems).

*Sorry for the run-on sentence (Second sentence)*

*I don’t mean to make light of the situation at all, but this match-up is possible to win without an overwhelming skill gap between you and your opponent*

*Marth was a terrible match-up for Mario in Melee, but it wasn't as bad for Dr. Mario*

*F.L.U.D.D. goes right through King DeDeDe's Waddle Dees*

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Not all Dedede players are good. Remember that it's the person using the fighter that matters.

 

[???????]

Exactly, but there's a lot more to the match-up than simply King DeDeDe's infinite.

 

[Matador]

I'm glad to see the optimism. Honestly, this find really bummed me out.

Alright, I've heard:

-Let the ddd approach you. Doing so makes an incoming grab predictable and punishable.
-That matchup isn't terribly in ddd's favor even WITH the infinite.
-The matchup is still winnable. If your opponent isn't as skilled as you, they probably won't win.

Also, would doing an upB at anytime between regrabs "break" the infinite? Not sure if anyone has tried it. I figured maybe the upB could because of priority and low startup lag. Probably not, but there's always hope.

 

[The Master of Mario]

DDD NEEDS The stage to push the character up. If he tries on platforms like in Battlefield you can fast fall out of it. I haven't checked all the stages so more stage counters may be possible.

 

[Matador]

DDD NEEDS The stage to push the character up. If he tries on platforms like in Battlefield you can fast fall out of it. I haven't checked all the stages so more stage counters may be possible.

Ah, stage counterpicks. I imagine stages like Lylat and Delfino would wreck infinites. That'd definitely give us an edge if the ddd is relying on them.

It seems to me that baiting them into the grab is what we must do if we want to turn the fight in our favor.

 

[The Master of Mario]

Counter stages

HANENBOW would be the ideal counter stage.

Steep Inclines and edges make contiinuous easy to escape.

 

[UltiMario]

Out of the 5 Million people that have Brawl, probably only 50 that are REALLY GREAT with DeDeDe, and Maybe about 50,000 that can just pull off the CG.
50,050/5,000,000 is less than it seems, thats a whopping 1%.

 

[Scala]

just don't get grabbed... IC is the ultimate counter for... EVERY CHARACTER? IC's can 0-death you every time, so you're going to need to learn to avoid grabs regardless, since no matter who you play there may always be a good IC who will kill you.

Though, I won't worry about it too much. Chances are, chaingrabs are going to be limited to 4 or 5 in tournaments so I say stick with your mains and push for infinite grab rules to be changed.

Out of the 5 Million people that have Brawl, probably only 50 that are REALLY GREAT with DeDeDe, and Maybe about 50,000 that can just pull off the CG.
50,050/5,000,000 is less than it seems, thats a whopping 1%.

Chances are the 450,000 that can't chaingrab won't play DDD in tournaments. I guarantee any competent DDD player in a tournament will have learned how to infinite those 5 characters. As such, I'd say the chances of meeting a infinite-capable DDD player in a tournament is upwards 90%, since those 50,000 are the ones that you will be seeing in tournaments.

 

[???????]

Stage counterpicking is a good step in the right direction; like I said before, the match-up is more in your favor than it seems.

 

[Veggi]

The cars in Onett can knock you out of the infinite, not much help, but at least it's something. Also I havn't heard much about it, but can that trick that lets players break out of a grab by pressing the attack button as soon as they are grabbed work for the infinite?

 

[Kidlat]

ISJR bairs and dairs

 

[Amide]

Let's see. They ban wall stages because you can do infinites against like, any character. But somehow, it's OK to do infinites on characters that can get infinited (I know, that word isn't real) other ways. Am I the only one that thinks that's stupid?

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Let's see. They ban wall stages because you can do infinites against like, any character. But somehow, it's OK to do infinites on characters that can get infinited (I know, that word isn't real) other ways. Am I the only one that thinks that's stupid?

This has been discussed...if the infinate were to work on the majority of the cast then yes it would be banned but the fact that it only works on 5-7 characters makes it ok. The news about D3's infinite affects me most of all considering 4 of my 5 characters can get chaingrabbed to death.

if something gets found then it will probably make the D3 match up much easier but as of now I don't see that happening

 

[Matador]

just don't get grabbed... IC is the ultimate counter for... EVERY CHARACTER? IC's can 0-death you every time, so you're going to need to learn to avoid grabs regardless, since no matter who you play there may always be a good IC who will kill you.

Though, I won't worry about it too much. Chances are, chaingrabs are going to be limited to 4 or 5 in tournaments so I say stick with your mains and push for infinite grab rules to be changed.



Chances are the 450,000 that can't chaingrab won't play DDD in tournaments. I guarantee any competent DDD player in a tournament will have learned how to infinite those 5 characters. As such, I'd say the chances of meeting a infinite-capable DDD player in a tournament is upwards 90%, since those 50,000 are the ones that you will be seeing in tournaments.

Let's see. They ban wall stages because you can do infinites against like, any character. But somehow, it's OK to do infinites on characters that can get infinited (I know, that word isn't real) other ways. Am I the only one that thinks that's stupid?

There was a thread created 3 days ago talking about this exact subject. There were facts from melee brought up, their "Bible", Sirlin's guide to competitive play was quoted unmercifully as if the man's never wrong, and the anti-infinite people pretty much lost the discussion...again. The fact of the matter is...

There won't be a ban, there won't be a limit, they aren't changing a thing. There's not enough characters vulnerable to it to enforce a ban. Pretty much, those 8 are screwed.

And we're one of them.

That's why we must find some sort of strategy, be it counterpicking stages or some sort of campy playstyle. There are strategies around the ICs infinite (separate/kill nana, avoid their short grab range, AND the infinite is much harder to perform, so more of a margin for error) that make the matchup more than bearable. We WILL run into ddds in tournaments constantly because he's going to be our ultimate counterpick. 1grab = 1stock. That looks great on paper, but we need a way to prevent that one grab, or at least find a way of interrupting the infinite.

To TLink: Plenty of people see that as wrong, but we don't make the rules. It's our job to work around that.

 

[kobefan]

ok, noob here.

So who are the 5 that can get chain grabbed to death,

and why did i come in here looking for a solution to get out of D3 chaingrab, and end up in this post.

Bummer for me.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Now you know how Ness and Lucas mains have felt for the past couple of weeks. It really is ********.

 

[Amide]

ok, noob here.

So who are the 5 that can get chain grabbed to death,

and why did i come in here looking for a solution to get out of D3 chaingrab, and end up in this post.

Bummer for me.

Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, and DK

Sorry, I don't know the answer to your second question.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

and why did i come in here looking for a solution to get out of D3 chaingrab, and end up in this post.

Bummer for me.

You came here cause Mario Boards are awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zorio]

Exploits, exploits, exploits. I have a hard time imagining that a win derived from such a ridiculous and cheap tactic would feel very rewarding.

 

[Matador]

Exploits, exploits, exploits. I have a hard time imagining that a win derived from such a ridiculous and cheap tactic would feel very rewarding.

I wouldn't call it a ridiculous or cheap tactic in the presence of backroom members. They'll shove sirlin's guide down your throat and permanent marker scrub across your forehead.

 

[SkylerOcon]

As somebody mentioned in this post (either that or another post I'm not sure) pressing the A-button at the right time during a grab will get you out of it. I tested it a few times just now and it works.

Though I've never been able to test it during a chain grab (I don't know anybody who can CG so I can't test it), hopefully somebody else will.

Maybe this will be Mario's saving grace?!

 

[Matador]

I've never tried it. Is it only Mario?

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Man you Mario palyers have it rough. But being a Sonic main isn't a walk in the park also. I'm a sonic main, and someone like DD isn't much of a one sided battle for Sonic. I never seen a good Mario before at trouneys I go to. I don't know much about mario, but I say a good distance game will make thing easier for you Mario mains. Why? Well, most of DD moves are air or smashs, which means fireballs and the water tank might make the DD's player make mistake. But I hope you guys find something to counter this big monster.

Good luck, Slycopper23

P.S.

If anyone asks about the Mario stuff, I got it from my Luigi. i do tha twhen I fighting DD to make it easier for me.

 

[Mario_ 101]

I've never tried it. Is it only Mario?

It works with other characters, too.

 

[Kidlat]

Another example of this poorly designed game

 

[Theftz22]

I have decided to just get kind of good with every single character, because every character has a match up that's so hard you don't even have to be good with the other character to win. This way, whichever character my oponent uses, I will just choose their ultimate counterpick and win. In the future I can see everyone doing this, and we would be forever stuck on the character selection screen just constantly changing characters to counterpick your oponent.