Map Station[OP UNDER CONSTRUCTION!]: Delfino Plaza!

[IsmaR]

The obvious thing would be to avoid Olimar here. The stage screws over your projectile game in general, and leaves you open to people with powerful vertical kill moves(Snake's/Dedede's U-tilt, Wario's U-air, DK's/Olimar's U-smash, etc.). On the flipside, using moves like D-air, U-tilt, Z-air and Screw Attack on here is pretty effective.

I also like the stage because of the incredible teching you can do on it(surviving Fox's fully charged D-smash at 140% <3) and the fact that you can refresh your moves on the Fly Guys.

 

[KillerJawz]

The obvious thing would be to avoid Olimar here. The stage screws over your projectile game in general, and leaves you open to people with powerful vertical kill moves(Snake's/Dedede's U-tilt, Wario's U-air, DK's/Olimar's U-smash, etc.). On the flipside, using moves like D-air, U-tilt, Z-air and Screw Attack on here is pretty effective.

I also like the stage because of the incredible teching you can do on it(surviving Fox's fully charged D-smash at 140% <3) and the fact that you can refresh your moves on the Fly Guys.

IsmaR curse you and your awesomeness ;.;, I was going to say like half of that x.x

I dont really play on this stage to much, but the one character who I know to avoid here is DK. DK can avoid our spam with that tilting platform and force us offstage with his bair. His USmash can hit through that platform, so its an easy ko for him if your on it, and he can juggle you up there with his monster range tilts. Even when we dair him or manage to get him off stage for some gimps, that stupid ghost may save him, allowing him to quickly get back on stage.

I can honestly not think of a single character to take here just now, I'll write more in the morning, its like midnight here x.x.

 

[NO-IDea]

I have a few characters as to who to counterpick Yoshi's against. I will share them within a day or two if no one comes up with characters.

Some more involvement from our other Samus mains would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Red Arremer]

Yoshi's Island is awesome. Walljump ftw.
However, the stage is not very good for Samus, in my opinion. The tilting platform and the flyguys are all able to interrupt projectiles. The oddly shaped main platform kinda hurts the utility of some moves, mainly DSmash and DTilt. It's not as bad as on Halberd, though. ZAir is pretty kickass on this stage (where isn't it? Haw), and interestingly enough the USmash, which can reach right through the platforms and not that easily punished. Also, bombs onto the top of the platform are not as bad either. Since the space between main area and platform is very small, characters with explosive or big projectiles (Gordos) can be very annoying here. If you are on the platform, be careful of up-angled moves that might reach through the platform, such as Sheik's, Zelda's or Bowser's USmashes or Meta Knight's or Peach's UTilt. And of course the stuff that reaches through it anyway (I'm looking at YOU, Zero Suit Samus and Snake). Also, the ghosts can break up your offstage game and help the opponent recover.

Generally, try to avoid characters with great aerial movement or aerial attacks here.

Wario is a pain to fight on this stage because he's all over the place and Samus only has ZAir and perhaps a missile or charge shot to keep up with him, if she's lucky.

Snake is able to control two spaces on the platform with his mine and his C4, so keep that in mind. Using bombs while jumping over it might be useful here.

Interestingly, Yoshi's projectiles are more screwed up in this stage than Samus' are, so it might be interesting to take Yoshi here.

Overall, I think Yoshi's Island hurts Samus a bit more than it helps her. But for characters with bad mobility, especially in the air, this stage might be worth trying.

 

[IsmaR]

Yoshi's Island is awesome. Walljump ftw.
However, the stage is not very good for Samus, in my opinion. The tilting platform and the flyguys are all able to interrupt projectiles. The oddly shaped main platform kinda hurts the utility of some moves, mainly DSmash and DTilt. It's not as bad as on Halberd, though. ZAir is pretty kickass on this stage (where isn't it? Haw), and interestingly enough the USmash, which can reach right through the platforms and not that easily punished. Also, bombs onto the top of the platform are not as bad either. Since the space between main area and platform is very small, characters with explosive or big projectiles (Gordos) can be very annoying here. If you are on the platform, be careful of up-angled moves that might reach through the platform, such as Sheik's, Zelda's or Bowser's USmashes or Meta Knight's or Peach's UTilt. And of course the stuff that reaches through it anyway (I'm looking at YOU, Zero Suit Samus and Snake). Also, the ghosts can break up your offstage game and help the opponent recover.

Other than the thing about Halberd(am I the only person who has no problem at all with it?), agreed.

Generally, try to avoid characters with great aerial movement or aerial attacks here.

Wario is a pain to fight on this stage because he's all over the place and Samus only has ZAir and perhaps a missile or charge shot to keep up with him, if she's lucky.

I'd argue that D-air, U-tilt, N-air, and grabs help, but yeah, Wario pretty much dominates this stage.

It might just be me, or a weird coincidence, but I always seem to do good against Sonic's on here. Get him out far enough horizontally, and you can really punish his recovery, even if he recovers high. It's a pain in the *** if he gets you with U-airs from under the platform, but same situation for him with U-tilts, U-airs and Screw Attacks. I also like it since it somewhat helps against his spin attacks. If he's charging on the bottom platform, jump on the top, read him properly, and either dodge, sheild, lay a bomb, or jump out of his path. If he's on the top, fastfall under the stage, punish with Screw Attack, Full Hop N-air > Charge Shot, and Z-air.

 

[NO-IDea]

Well... there goes sharing my idea. Ismar has already said it. I take Sonics here all the time.

 

[IsmaR]

I too was waiting for somebody else to say it, tbh. Speak up first next time. ;L

 

[NO-IDea]

Haha, I wanted to encourage other people to think and speak up before I provided any input. I did say I would if no one cared to =P.

 

[Cherry64]

I dislike this stage for samus, the stupid little dip in the center of the stage enables half the cast to run under our Z-air/missile cancelled anything, DEFINITLY DO NOT take a Toon Link here, or your asking for U smash kills

everyone covered everything else really

 

[Crystanium]

Since we're going to have a compendium, I removed this from the sticky. So if you want to look for this thread, be sure to check the compendium. The compendium will be stickied.

 

[Werk!]

About Yoshi's Story:

1. The slopes will cause bombs to shift. The slopes will also cause Samus's drop-from-edge second-jump aerials to autocancel earlier than on other stages. F-air's last few (good) hits disappear, but U-air cancels beautifully. It all depends on whether you can abuse this before the opponent adapts to it.

2. The Shy Guys will count as targets for lagging all of your lag-able hits. D-air and Z-air are probably the more useful examples.



Not-so-related point: Has anyone figured out how to z-air through the stage here? I can't do it, but then, I can't do it on FD either.

 

[IsmaR]

About Yoshi's Island

Sorry. And I can't really figure out how to Z-air under the stage, either. Never really bothered to find out how.

 

[NO-IDea]

The slopes of Yoshi's Island do not allow effective use of z-airing when coming from edge. U-air cancels are nice, but easily shield grabbed. F-air cancels are okay, but the hitbox that matters usually doesn't come up. You can screw attack when the f-air cancels, but if they shield through that too, or even DI out because the f-air cancel may cause them to be too far left/right, and the platform isn't angled at its highest, you're going to get punished from landing lag.

Samus can't even drop off ledge and jump back to missile cancel as effectively as other stages. She can still b-air, which you can time and cancel when landing on the slope, but that too can be easily shield grabbed.

The moral of the story is that her ledge game is mediocre (and therefore sucks) on this stage. The wall jumping hardly makes up for it.

It is clear people aren't commenting on Yoshi's Island because there is clear discomfort on the stage for Samus, as well as a clear disadvantage. Enforce stage striking and ban this neutral at start of the match.

YOSHI'S ISLAND discussion is closed.
CASTLE SIEGE discussion should now begin.

We are now on counter-pick/neutral stages. I expect more discussion as these are the stages where we must choose whether or not we use the stage as a counterpick tool.

 

[Borozan]

Castle Siege is an odd stage for all characters, as obviously it changes three times. With this in mind, the Beginning stage, the Castle in Siege, is like a Battlefield, only a bit shorter on each end. The second stage is almost like a Luigi's Mansion with no outside air to dair in, which is a downer for Samus. Finally, the last stage is like a moving Final Destination, which is actually a pretty nice place for Samus to be. Overall, 2 out of the 3 stages go to Samus' advantage in my opinion, but if you get trapped with an Ike on the 2nd stage, things get nasty. He is pretty good at getting you out of there to the side, fast. He can kill you at really low percentages, and so can other characters with burly attacks, such as DK's clap. Be cautious in the middle stage for sure, but you can use your zair to your advantage, get them near one of the ends at the bottom area, and shoot a homing missle, a zair, then a charged shot.

As for the other stages of Castle Siege, just do as you would in Battlefield/Final Destination.

Oh, and inbetween stages, you don't really have much time, and not really much space, so spam zair and missle cancels. ​

 

[IsmaR]

^ Not a bad description, but I'd argue that the 1st stage is more like a slanted FD with platforms(lips gimp more easily, higher ceiling than BF(I think)), and the 3rd one like a tilting BF without platforms. Basically the same things, but meh. I do better on BF than I do on FD, which kind of explains why I do worse in the 1st stage, but better on the 3rd. Btw, welcome to the Samus boards, love your avi.

The 2nd stage is a bit iffy. The walk-off sides obviously screw you over if you are playing anyone with a chaingrab, or anyone with decently good B/F-throws. Even crappy throws will kill if you get too close to them. The platforms make it easier to evade things, and work well with Scew Attack, U-air and the like. The statues pretty much **** up your long range/projectile game until you can destroy them. But, they can be useful to you as well, particularly for refreshing moves with SH N-air and U-air. They'll also interfere with certain characters' moves(Link's D-air, Ike's Side B, etc.), along with other projectile-happy characters. Depends on how you use it, but it's got its mix of good and bad. The character you are fighting decides if it is worse or better for you, IMO.

Overall, the stage is good for players who can evade and manipulate their environment well, bad for people who rely on camping/spacing too much.

 

[Red Arremer]

Castle Siege is a really odd counterpick that can benefit every character somehow, but somehow also put them at a disadvantage.

For Samus, clearly, that is the second part of the stage. But, I'll get to that in a second.

Stage Part 1:
This is actually not too bad. You have the slope, so keep out for that when using your projectiles, it screwed me over some time already.
The platforms are nice for Screw Attacks or UAirs, and can prove very useful. It's basically a little bit adapted Battlefield. It has a high ceiling, but the side-blastzones are a bit closer, so it might be useful. Getting a KO here can be tricky, if you kill someone here' it probably going to be on the second run-through, unless you're lucky. Not too bad, but not insanely great either.

Stage Transition:
This thing is probably one of the most underrated parts of that stage ever, lol. The transition can be used for quick KOs with ZAir chains or Charge Shot. Be careful, though, as those are walkoffs.

Stage Part 2:
Now... this is horrible for Samus. First of all, this thing is HUGE. The statues block your projectile game by a big margin, so you should stay in the upper half of the stage. Be careful, as there's a whole bunch of walkoffs, so don't let a Dedede grab you here.
If you are good at staying and defending a position, I'd suggest staying in the center of the stage, on top of a statue. This is probably the worst section for Samus. The ceiling is even higher than in the first part, although this section has the closest side-blastzones on this stage.

Stage Part 3:
Now, this section is one single platform that's tilting. Watch out, as it's not completely even - there's a small step that lets the left side of it be a little higher. Just something to keep in mind - not that it's a big problem.
I forgot how high the ceiling is on this one, I think it was the lowest in the stage; but the side blastzones are the farthest away. This section is great for camping and ZAiring. Otherwise, the tilting can screw a bit with your recovery, so be careful.
In general, this is probably the most uneventful part of the stage.

 

[IsmaR]

As far as ceilings go, 2nd > 3rd > 1st in terms of early kills, the left being more dangerous for you. For that reason, I think it's not smart staying near the top platforms on the 2nd stage.

 

[Red Arremer]

Ah, thanks for clearing up the ceiling stuff. Wasn't too sure on that one, I haven't played on Siege for quite some while.

Yea, as said, the center is pretty much the safest place to stay in section 2.

 

[NO-IDea]

There's been a spike in discussion from the FAQ thread concerning the Ike match-up which should
A) Be logged in the morphology and
B) Be discussed here because we all tend to agree not to take Ike to Castle Siege. WHO ELSE should we not take here?

In particular, would taking Falco here be the brightest of ideas? Would trading off terrain advantage for his ability to refresh moves (part two of CS) make the stage worthwhile or not? Does the angled terrain of part one hurt him or help him with his laser camping? (Be specific when responding to this) Does the low ceiling hurt you or actually help you? Falco kills with f-smash,b-air and up-smash (often times mixed in from a laser->DACUS. With this said, f-smash's angle trajectory is heavily influenced by DI up, and up-smash attempts can be telegraphed (he has problems killing for a reason.) On the other hand, Samus still has d-tilt and walk offs to use for killing. State your opinions please.

Castle Siege is a bag of tricks which constantly changes terrain advantage for Samus and other characters. Please take time to look at the roster and think of some match-ups where Castle Siege could make it more favorable. (Or highly unfavorable, if CS is to be the new Yoshi's)

 

[NO-IDea]

Well, this thread got inactive rather quickly. Although, the blame belongs mostly to me. I should have encouraged more discussion and been more prudent to updating information. Alas, early midterms of college life suck. But they are done! Back to business! I will update the Map Station with information on Castle Siege relatively soon.

CASTLE SIEGE discussion is now closed.
HALBERD discussion should now begin.

Halberd is a very common, widely legal counterpick stage. So let's get an early start before next week begins!

Who should we take here, who shouldn't we take here and why?

I welcome each and every Samus main, veteran or newcomer, sick of the boards or new to the boards, to post their thoughts. I am rather tired of those who come merely to observe, either because they are afraid of their inexperience or so cocky they believe they are above a stage thread. Stages are vital to the game. They in essence accentuate or underscore the strengths and weaknesses of every character (Meta Knight too.) Share what you have to say.

The faster we get through this, the faster I can complete a final compilation with a list of all characters and ideal CP choices and bans for each that can go directly into the Morphology.

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay, I aint contributed in a while, so I guess its my turn ;o.

Tips and Tricks

Okay off the bat im going to say this, DONT TAKE SMALL CHARACTERS HERE. Honestly its horrible to see them duck under our spam with that ditch in the floating stage, so yeah, take note of that. We are able to ZAIR UNDER THE STAGE when it floats, so this is very useful if your under pressure, just be sure that you are in a position where a through stage spike is not possible. The platform above is VERY helpful against larger characters, they have a tough time getting off of it when we get them up there. Proceed to **** them with uairs and utilts.

On the 2nd part of the stage (the flat bit) there can either be a platform or no platform, if there isnt a platform, this is FD with a cannon/claw/lazer, if there is no platform its kind of like SmashVille. On this part of the stage, larger characters are at our mercy, spam on this stage works beautifully. Super Missles can be used for the most extreme camping since Wario dittos :O.

Who should Samus take here

First character who comes to mind is......

[Will edit later]

 

[NO-IDea]

First character that comes to mind for me?

Take MK to Halberd! Low ceiling, good planking possibilities. Hazards to screw with. All around good! If MK attempts to go beneath you and tornado/u-air/up+b, OoS screw attack him. Has a huge initial hitbox on aerial opponents (be sure to tilt your shield down.) Middle platform can provide a psedo BF feel, not as high, but still makes Samus less punishable on OoS screw, and allows for seriously platform poking if Samus manages to get MK on top of the platform.

First character that comes in mind to ban Halberd?

Snake! Low ceiling+hazards+his explosive equipment = loss. Halberd is an insta-ban.

I have other characters in mind to use Halberd as a CP/Ban, but what do you guys think?

 

[Borozan]

HALBERD​

Samus Kill %s - For the first 5 Crew.

UN-DIed Un-Charged Fsmash at ends of Halberd course

Mario - 101%
Donkey Kong - 114%
Link - 113% (But at 100% and up, it's hard to get back up for him, giving you perfect opportunities to dair him!)
Samus - 109%
Kirby - 97%



DIed Un-Charged Fsmash at ends of Halberd course

Mario - 103%
Donkey Kong - 115%
Link - Still 113%
Samus - 113%
Kirby - 98%

UN-DIed Fully-Charged Fsmash at ends of Halberd course

Mario - 68%

So far from what I've seen, lower weights are easier, higher weights are harder KILLS on this stage.
However, the exception is that heavy characters fall faster, which is extremely helpful with the amount of space you have in the air.
Not complete. Far far not complete. ;P

 

[KillerJawz]

Oh my God those kill %s make me scream. Seriously how on earth can such an awesome looking character be so **** weak? ;.;

 

[Borozan]

Well, the first two are uncharged, but the thing is, it is pretty difficult to get an opponent to the edges anyways.

 

[IsmaR]

You have more chance of hitting with B-air near the edge than with a fully charged F-smash. And I agree with NOID, MK's a good choice to take there. The stage used to be my CP of choice before I started CPing Brinstar. I don't really think Snake is that bad, but the early ceiling kill thing screws you over on a proficient-at-U-tilting Snake. I'd avoid DK for the same reason(though he's pretty easy to gimp on the 1st part of the stage). That shouldn't be the only thing you consider when thinking about the stage, though.

 

[Red Arremer]

Since most people don't seem to be aware of this: Right before the floating platform lands on the ship's deck, you can drop onto the ship and attack from below with UAir or Screw Attack. Can be very useful.

The hazards on the ship are rather easy to avoid, but the laser can be a very useful tool to shove an enemy into (although a player aware of the hazard will DI out of it quickly).

Take care on the floating part of the stage because characters with multijumps can go through the main platform and attack you from below.

Characters to take here are definitely characters with low vertical kill power or who are very light.
Characters to avoid here are stage-controllers and characters with strong vertical KO power. Halberd is one of the best stages for Snake and Fox.

 

[KillerJawz]

Ownership has been transferred to Composer.

Have fun ^^.

 

[DtJ Composer]

I might work on reorganizing the OP/replacing the pictures later.

I feel like Lylat would be a good stage to start discussion on (mainly because it's the only starter we haven't covered yet).

 

[IsmaR]

I think that might be because it isn't a starter most of the time. :<
I get CP'd there most of the time by Sonics and R.O.B.s tho, and try to choose it whenever it is a starter/CP.

 

[KillerJawz]

I always get CPed to Lylat by Olimars, no idea why tbh :/

 

[DtJ Composer]

There are places where Lylat isn't a starter? o.o

 

[IsmaR]

Didn't notice when it became a starter in my region, and not like people won't steer it to being SV/BF/FD first match anyway :\.

 

[ZeroL]

There are places where Lylat isn't a starter? o.o

You can use starters as a counterpick too. ^^

 

[DtJ Composer]

Oh of course, I just associate it with starter.

I'll have an imo write-up by the end of the week so that we've got something to discuss.

 

[KillerJawz]

You may want to consider changing the title so we know we're on lylat. Sadly I have nothing to say about this stage, since I rarely play on it and all my input on this stage will be totally invalid.

 

[DtJ Composer]

I forgot I had that ability

 

[KillerJawz]

I forgot I had that ability

My apologies, I should have mentioned it when I handed you ownership.

 

[Throwback]

Lylat is amazing for samus. Get on the low side & zair your opponent silly. Abuse utilt, fair & uair while they are on platforms. Uair/fair from under the stage are great.

My personal fave counterpick, there's nothing bad about this stage for samus.

The only character I wouldn't take it against is falco, cos his low-side laser spam is far more brutal than samus' zair spam.

 

[IYM!]

Lylat is amazing for samus. Get on the low side & zair your opponent silly. Abuse utilt, fair & uair while they are on platforms. Uair/fair from under the stage are great.

My personal fave counterpick, there's nothing bad about this stage for samus.

The only character I wouldn't take it against is falco, cos his low-side laser spam is far more brutal than samus' zair spam.

are you sure, to be honest i dont like use this stage when i play with samus

the ship is constantly swinging, that situation can cause problems when we shoot our charge beam,

and make dificult use the ledges, for Ex:
when samus let the ledges , after she fall a bit, and after use her screw attack to grab it again(i dont know which is the name of that technique), that technique is usefull, but dificult to do correctly in lylat

for if someone dont uderstand me , KJ use a lot that tecnique, and is very usefull , like a defencive tactic