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Making characters more faithful to canon is making some of them less fun to play

Quillion

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I just don't like how they keep changing certain characters just to make them more "canon". Yes, they're more canon, I guess it makes sense to change them, but that doesn't mean they have to.

The biggest three examples of this in my mind are Bowser, Link and Ganondorf. All of them have been made more canonical, but they're just much less enjoyable than their previous versions because of their "canonizing" changes.
  • Bowser was awesome in both Melee and Brawl, he was such a menacing Kaiju with such bestial fury and brute force. Just his walking animation exuded power, and his headbutt F-Smash was so satisfying, too. But come Smash 4, they turn him into a generic wrestler. Yes, the changes are mainly limited to his animations (and making him run faster), but those animations are simply less fun to look at. The inclusion of Incineroar makes new Bowser even more redundant; we don't need two heavies with fire and wrestling aesthetics.
  • Link really should have stuck with his classic toolset. Just because BotW changed so much about him didn't mean the regular bombs, hookshot, and left-handedness had to be thrown away. BotW Link should have been a separate character with TP/OoT Link being an echo or vice versa. And no, Young Link and Toon Link are not good enough.
  • Ganondorf, oh man, WHY did they have to stick that dumb sword onto him? Ganondorf had built up such a reputation as someone who is disrespecting the opponent by just using a quarter of his effort and never breaking out his weapons or the full extent of his power. But of course, Smash Ultimate has to betray that image by giving him big sweeping sword attacks that are nowhere near as brutal-looking as his old Smashes. And don't say that it was competitively better; they could have just super-armored his smashes and/or improved their frame data.
I'm not saying that all "canonical" changes are bad: Pit's Upperdash Arm is much more interesting than having two reflectors, and I still think Varia Samus would be a better character with projectile normals. But we really need to stop acting like making characters more canonical is going to magically make them more enjoyable. DK would lose a great setup tool if he loses his Headbutt for his Barrel Throw or Coconut Gun. And how would Zelda's enjoyability benefit from moving her Light Arrow to her regular moveset when her goddess spells are already very fitting?
 
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Swordmaster102

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Some might (though pretty few since few play him) disagree with me, but I think Ryu struggles exactly from the same thing. Nintendo trying to make him more “canon” actually just worsened him as a fighter. B-air can’t be utilized “as well” I’d say, and his aerial game is non-existent because of certain changes in Ultimate. Besides landing with a N-air to start a grounded combo, there’s just not much to do after an aerial.
 
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Zachmac

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I'm much more intimidated by a big beastly monster running at me at mach speed then one crawling towards me at a snail's pace. I love good posture speedy Bowser more then ever. They also increased his weight and super armor making him more threatening then ever.

His speed and size make him feel very different from Incineroar. Bowser is a big monster who charges at you and throws out giant hitboxes, complemented by a solid grappling game for when they start shielding. Incineroar meanwhile has far better grabs but also has much poorer mobility to make him significantky worse at rushdown. You're kidding if you think they make eachother redundant.
 

MG_3989

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All of these changes have made the characters better imo

Melee and Brawl Ganon and Bowser were terrible. This is also the most viable Link has ever been. Distinguishing Ganon from Captain Falcon a little more just makes him a more interesting character. Bowser is far different than Incineroar, have you played the game? And times change so Link changed too. I’m sorry if you’re stuck in the past. They gave us YL and TL so I don’t get how you could still be complaining. You seem like you’re just averse to change
 

Quillion

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I'm much more intimidated by a big beastly monster running at me at mach speed then one crawling towards me at a snail's pace. I love good posture speedy Bowser more then ever. They also increased his weight and super armor making him more threatening then ever.

His speed and size make him feel very different from Incineroar. Bowser is a big monster who charges at you and throws out giant hitboxes, complemented by a solid grappling game for when they start shielding. Incineroar meanwhile has far better grabs but also has much poorer mobility to make him significantky worse at rushdown. You're kidding if you think they make eachother redundant.
Their wrestling aesthetics are just too similar, that's the problem. It was bad enough that Bowser was made a deceptively mobile heavy brawler like Donkey Kong already is. But they just had to add another heavy wrestler to the roster.

And the bigger problem was that Bowser's animations before Smash 4 were better. They could have just given him speed and armor with the old animations, and that would have been the best option.

All of these changes have made the characters better imo

Melee and Brawl Ganon and Bowser were terrible. This is also the most viable Link has ever been. Distinguishing Ganon from Captain Falcon a little more just makes him a more interesting character. Bowser is far different than Incineroar, have you played the game? And times change so Link changed too. I’m sorry if you’re stuck in the past. They gave us YL and TL so I don’t get how you could still be complaining. You seem like you’re just averse to change
You can't boil characters down to competitive viability and call it a day. Yes, Ganon and Bowser were terrible back then, and Link was less viable then; so what? The moves were just more fun to use back then. Why couldn't they just keep Ganon's old Smashes and armor them and/or give them better frame data? Why couldn't they just give Bowser more speed while keeping his awesome beastly animations? And Young Link and Toon Link are both too light to be my Link.
 

Xelrog

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I agree with the point, but not these particular examples. On the topic of Ganondorf, I want him to be MORE canon. Replace his useless Warlock Punch with magic tennis projectile and give him some kind of limited flight in his jumps/recovery, to reflect his Ocarina qualities. A projectile and a better recovery would make him a better representation of Dorf and also do wonders for his playability.

Things that cause me to think twice are the characters taking damage in water (which has no competitive influence, but still), and some of the more gimmicky characters... like, is Robin so incredibly powerful that his spells NEED to run out? Or is that just there to reflect the original game? Limited ammo systems on the whole kind of suck for a game like Smash, and I would feel the same way about Inkling if she weren't such a powerful character even with the need to reload.
 

Quillion

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Replace his useless Warlock Punch with magic tennis projectile and give him some kind of limited flight in his jumps/recovery, to reflect his Ocarina qualities. A projectile and a better recovery would make him a better representation of Dorf and also do wonders for his playability.
Nah, a better change would be for both it and Falcon Punch to have a "weak" version that you get by just tapping B. Falcon Punch would become a quick straight punch that helps recovery and starts combos (pretty much Jigglypuff's Pound). Warlock Punch would become a projectile reflector and also a quick combo starter (kinda like Mario's Cape).
 

Team Orchid

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Some characters would be worse by sticking to canon. :ultpokemontrainer::ultpokemontrainerf:is the first one that springs to mind, remember brawl? There's also characters who would be enhanced by sticking to canon. For example.
:ultike::ultlucina::ultchrom::ultroy: All of these characters just swing nothing but swords. Ike could use axes in his game and the rest could use lances. There's plenty of places to shove an alternate weapon in there to make more differences with them all and Marth.
:ultjigglypuff: Jigglypuff has some crazy moves she can learn in the real games. Replacing rollout with Ice Beam or something to give her a projectile would make her more fun to play, plus it would better represent the normal type and the crazy movepools it has.
:ultzelda: Her upsmash should be her holding up the triforce like she does in Zelda 1. That way it's not only not useless, it's also a reference to NES times. ******* love a reference to NES times.
I'm sure more people who could be enhanced with a bit of extra canon but I don't know who they are since I haven't played that many games.
 

Opossum

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:ultike::ultlucina::ultchrom::ultroy: All of these characters just swing nothing but swords. Ike could use axes in his game and the rest could use lances. There's plenty of places to shove an alternate weapon in there to make more differences with them all and Marth.
.
Roy has never used lances, though.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Smash 3DS / Wii U actually made Bowser much more viable than his Melee and Brawl counterparts, especially with the addition of the tough guy mechanic (which makes Bowser impervious to flinching if he doesn't take more than 19 units of knockback). But the appearance change should've also given Bowser Kenny James's voice portrayal of him; Bowser Jr. kept his usual voice clips after all.
 

Idon

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:ultike::ultlucina::ultchrom::ultroy: All of these characters just swing nothing but swords. Ike could use axes in his game and the rest could use lances. There's plenty of places to shove an alternate weapon in there to make more differences with them all and Marth.
Okay, but here's the thing...

:ultlucina: and:ultchrom: are echoes. They have unique stuff in their original games, but they're only in Smash because they'd be easy. If Sakurai wanted to invest resources in a unique moveset, then he most likely would've gone for some of the more unique characters such as Anna, Celica, Hector, and/or Ephraim. (Though IMO, they shoulda replaced em with Sigurd and Alm respectively, but that's just my very unpopular opinion)

:ultroy: only uses the Binding Blade. The extent of his abilities past being an inexperienced swordsman is causing remote explosions, which would boil down to moving the blast from his neutral B outwards more like Zelda. I'd love that, but he'd still be a swordsman.

:ultike:, could use the axe, but one, that's only in his Radiant Dawn incarnation, and two, his most iconic axe, the Urvan doesn't provide anything new he couldn't have otherwise done with his greatsword. Outside of a projectile in the form of a generic throwing axe (which more Ike fans would prefer be his blade beams), it's not especially necessary.
 
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Quillion

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Smash 3DS / Wii U actually made Bowser much more viable than his Melee and Brawl counterparts, especially with the addition of the tough guy mechanic (which makes Bowser impervious to flinching if he doesn't take more than 19 units of knockback). But the appearance change should've also given Bowser Kenny James's voice portrayal of him; Bowser Jr. kept his usual voice clips after all.
Again again, why can't they just give Bowser his speed and Tough Guy without ruining his animations?
 

Idon

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Again again, why can't they just give Bowser his speed and Tough Guy without ruining his animations?
Because "ruining" is subjective and they probably didn't think they were ruining Bowser when they gave him similar attributes to most every other modern incarnation of Bowser.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I do agree that I enjoyed Bowser aesthetically a lot more in Melee/Brawl, the beast-like version. The way he carries himself now is just cartoony.
Smash 3DS / Wii U did turn away from the more realistic vibe, so the appearance change was quite understandable. And even Ultimate doesn't look as realistic as Brawl, despite the graphic changes.
 

Quillion

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Because "ruining" is subjective and they probably didn't think they were ruining Bowser when they gave him similar attributes to most every other modern incarnation of Bowser.
Just because modern incarnations of Bowser had human posture doesn't mean the Bowser in Smash should have it. How would you feel if Ridley was quadrupedal like he is in every Metroid game where he's on the ground?
 

Arthur97

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I'd prefer a more canon Bowser; in fact, he's still too beast like for Bowser anyway. He may look like a monster, but he's a sentient being with a personality (even if it doesn't always seem consistent). Though the weird car dash was funny at least.

Link I would prefer to be more general. Ganondorf, however, still isn't even that close to canon.

In fact, I wish several of the FE fighters got overhauled using some of their extended abilities.
 

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Just because modern incarnations of Bowser had human posture doesn't mean the Bowser in Smash should have it. How would you feel if Ridley was quadrupedal like he is in every Metroid game where he's on the ground?
And it doesn't mean he shouldn't have it either. Honestly, the kaiju-esque Bowser doesn't really represent Bowser's current personality and design; the animations/appearance of old Bowser make them seem like two whole different characters. Practically all 3d incarnations of Bowser don't resemble kaiju Bowser in any way. Keeping that version around isn't preferable in my eyes.

And to answer your question, It'd depend on how well it worked. Ridley's personality gets across just fine in his Smash-original incarnation and Ridley himself is bipedal in a lot of games if I remember correctly. I'm sure he was in at least OG Metroid, Super, Fusion, and Prime 1, as those are the only Metroid games I've played.

Ridley standing on 2 or 4 legs wouldn't change his whole "murdery dino space pirate" personality he has going on I would think, compared to Bowser who drives fancy cars and wears wedding suits nowadays.
 
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Arrei

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I'm not seeing any problems here, just you asserting your own tastes as the only correct ones. I like Bowser as he is now, in his "thicc but fit" form instead of his previous incarnation with its lumbering oafish animations. I like how much power Ganondorf exudes with the sheer monstrous size and strength of his new smashes. (I miss being able to spam Usmash though.) I like when characters are based on their incarnations in the rest of Nintendo's media, because this game is supposed to celebrate Nintendo's media as a whole.

I'm still asking for Ike to get his goddamn sword beams ten years after Brawl came out. Where are my goddamn sword lasers, Sakurai?!
 
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Mogisthelioma

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Ah, a complaint thread where the owner asserts their opinions as objective facts. Well, I'll throw in my two cents:

I think making character more "canon" style is fine as long as it's not a direct nerf, and if it is, there's a replacement. Bowser's intimidating design fits the idea behind his character. Link's changes aren't super nerfs, and if you want his old playstyle, choose Young Link. The only thing I agree with you on is Ganon. The sword is a nerf in almost every way and there's nothing that makes up for it.
 
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DBPirate

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You said they "keep changing characters to make them more canon" but outside of Pit, I can't think of any examples other than the changes made to a very small number of characters in Ultimate, all of which I feel were for the better, especially the ones you named.

It'd be nice if Smash could also catch up with some of their in-universe voices as well. Animal grunts from 2008 isn't cutting it anymore.
 

Sabertooth

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I have absolutely no idea how anyone can complain about Link when we still have two clones who use the old moveset and the changes are so minute to begin with. What, they made it so the bombs are remote-detonated now? His grab comes out faster with less range? Plenty of characters get these kinds of changes from game to game, so I don't see why Link gets so much grief over it.
 

Necro'lic

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Goddammit man. You brought it up again. I know my Ganondorf rework idea didn't tip you off too much, but I think a fundamental problem you have with this subject is this unwritten rule that Smash Bros characters need to be consistent through the series because "that's just how fighting games be". I don't buy it.

I know people want to say that comparing fighting games with a MOBA is fallacious, but screw it. Let me show you how hero reworks happen in Dota 2, and why almost every single hero rework in the past 3 years has been seen as a positive thing, along with the few that haven't and WHY they haven't.

Good examples:

Necrophos rework in 7.00

Viper rework in 7.07

Lich rework in 7.20

We'll start with these three.

First, Necrophos. His rework involved his main damage spell, Death Pulse, being merged with one of his two passives, Sadist, which restores health and mana slowly over time whenever Necrophos kills something. With the merged Death Pulse/Sadist, he gained a new spell called Ghost Shroud, which makes him immune to physical damage and heavily increases healing he receives for a short while, as well as slowing enemies around him.

Necrophos' goal as a hero has always been a "slow burn" style of intelligence carry hero, staying within the fight for a long period of time, healing himself and his allies while passively and actively whittling away at his enemies. Before 7.00, he had no disable to keep people within range, no way to outheal most incoming damage, as well as no way to keep up against agility carries. With Ghost Shroud, not only are these weaknesses addressed, but because he gets healing amplification (the first healing amp spell in the game mind you), he can further bolster his other spells in various ways. In short, this huge rework made him not only better against things he was bad against, but also gives him a more complete moveset.

To give a Smash equivalent example, imagine if Inkling didn't have a way to manually refill ink and it passively did it over time. Yes, she would still work, but far far less than giving a clear cut extra tool to bolster the rest of her kit.
------------------------------------------------

Viper used to have two passives as well; Nethertoxin, which gave bonus attack damage based on the enemy's missing health, was merged with his first spell, Poison Attack, causing the damage over time to increase based on missing health, rather than Viper's attack itself. Nethertoxin was then reworked to throw a pool of magic resistance corroding acid that is very spammable, and disables heroes' passive skills should they stand on top of them.

Another example of bolstering Viper's moveset, because not only does he have plenty of slows to keep enemies in the Nethertoxin pool, but his magic damage is immense, and lowering resistance means it will hurt FAR more. On top of that, he was the very first hero to naturally cause passive skill disabling in quite a long time, giving him a specific niche he never had before in the metagame. This was after years of Viper simply being mediocre in all senses as a carry. Now he is one of only two heroes that can disable passives without needing an item, and he is actually used because of it.

An equivalent in Smash would definitely be Bowser post Brawl. In terms of purpose, not many of his moves changed, but his much higher mobility allows him to actually give a unique experience and threat level he would've not had otherwise.

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Next is Lich. Being one of the least changed heroes in the entire game since the very first Dota patch ever, he got two entirely new skills, replacing his unequivocally most boring spells. Ice Armor simply gave your teammates armor, and you had to play continuous upkeep throughout the game. His other spell, Sacrifice, removed an ally creep from the game, granting him mana, and his teammates the experience from said creep. This one spell put him into a very specific bubble as a "lane winner, game loser", where he would absolutely dominate the early parts of the game, but fall off hard later on, and because of his specific niche, there was little they could do to balance him adequately without just making him useless, so they just decided to remake the hero.

Frost Shield is a temporary buff that is like Ice Armor, except it is not spammable, and has a MUCH bigger effect, as it slows enemies around the ally you cast it on, as well as damage them periodically, giving him great teamfight capability. Sinister Gaze replaced Sacrifice, and while a very simple spell where you stun and pull a single enemy towards you, it was a hard disable on a hero who didn't have a hard disable, plus, it synergizes with Chain Frost, his ultimate, by forcing an enemy to stay close together, because to stop the spell they must hit Lich, but getting close to Lich while doing it bolsters the Chain Frost to keep going. Overall, Lich is a VERY common pick now and a unique hero all the same, though his purpose as a hero has drastically changed.

Smash equivalent is definitely Link, as his Remote Bomb Rune is far more versatile and playstyle defining than his old bombs. He can continuously hold and throw it without detonating to keep enemies back, he can hit it with an arrow or boomerang to cause it to drop in a certain way, and he can still self-detonate for recovery anyway. He has been repurposed for the better, and as such he is the most successful he has ever been in the series thus far, and is a unique fighter all the same.

-------------------------------------------------------

To contrast, here are some bad examples and why:

Bad examples:

Io rework from 7.14

Chen rework from 7.20

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Io has historically been a problematic hero balance wise, though starting at 7.14, he's been considered as slowly rebalanced to "remove skill" playing him. The big one is the Spirits skill losing its oscillation sub-abilities, disallowing very precise movement of the spinning orbs around Io in favor of a press to go out, and another press to go in, with no manual in between to stay on. People, especially dedicated Io players, were not too happy with this. For a Smash equivalent, it is similar to taking away certain options completely without much replacement, very similar to Ultimate Bayonetta.

The reason this was overreacted was because not only was nothing actually taken away option wise, but it helped lower the skill floor of Io, a historically low winrate pub hero, just that tad bit. Plus, there was a lot of other wonky interactions with the subabilities that were not worth worrying about. In Bayonetta's case, notice how people are finally not sticking to how she lost her ceiling combos and focusing more on how well she can combo horizontally now with her much weaker UAir? It's like that.

----------------------------------------------------------

Chen uses creeps (Dota version of minions) to attack and help his enemies and allies. The big change is now he cannot control the stronger creeps until later on, while historically he was considered one of the strongest heroes level 1 because a strong creep is roughly equivalent to a level 1 hero in terms of potential. Now, he has more buffs, and is played more like a buffing support rather than the army building ganking support he used to be.

The reason this isn't too much of a problem, or not as much as most players would say it is is because weaker creeps still are useful, and have been buffed over the years and most Chen players barely notice this because the stronger creeps are still stronger. This is a bit of a different case because I still feel Chen needs some tweaks to become less buff oriented only, but he already got a big one in the very next major patch, 7.21, where his new buff, Divine Favor, does double its buff on creeps he controls, giving him a reason to lug creeps around again, even if they are weaker.

-----------------------------------------------------------

These two examples were to show that it isn't the inconsistency in the character that is the problem, but very specific gripes that can be accounted for in the future without completely rolling back all changes done. But as I say, if you rework the Smash Bros fighters to either have a more defined purpose or more available options within that purpose they have, I'd call that the hallmark of a good Smash Bros fighter rework.

In conclusion, stop equating these reworks as bad because they are faithful to canon, especially when they give these characters more utility to work with, like Bowser and Link. As for Ganondorf, his rework is definitely more good/bad for those three moves replaced, but he still has disjoints he never did otherwise, so like Viper, it's giving him a little niche in terms of options by having good disjoint power.
 
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Ice-N-Space

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I agree with this completely, they changed Peach's grabs to fit a toad in them and it doesn't even make Peach's grabs hit harder, slower, faster or anything just a toad that won't close its mouth! Giving Peach more rump grab attacks would fit her a lot more than adding a copycat toad.
 

Xelrog

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I agree with this completely, they changed Peach's grabs to fit a toad in them and it doesn't even make Peach's grabs hit harder, slower, faster or anything just a toad that won't close its mouth! Giving Peach more rump grab attacks would fit her a lot more than adding a copycat toad.
Honestly I'm more annoyed that Daisy has Toads than I am that Peach does.
 

TheCJBrine

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I like both versions of Bowser. I don't find him that much similar to Incineroar, and both Bowsers are cool imo.

Tbh, old Bowser's run was a little weird, though; why'd he skid across the ground without moving his limbs...? I don't recall him doing that in any Mario games, he even ran normally in Super Mario 64, a game with his mechanical cat-like voice. I guess it could've been magic or something, but it didn't use anything to show magic being used...

For Ganondorf, I'd prefer him to actually be Ganondorf instead of Captain Falcon from an alternate universe. His current clone-like form is cool too, tbh, mostly just 'cause of the magic and stuff, but the swords made him a bit better imo.

Link...I don't really care, I prefer Young Link anyway. I do think he's cool, though, but old Link was cool as well.
 
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Omnos

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Mewtwo weighs more than charizard in pokemon.
Mewtwo weighs nearly the same as squirtle in SSB...
 

link2702

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Ganon isn’t even close to canon with his sword. That thing was from a tech demo for gcn, he’s never even used that officially.

If anything he needs to be more close to canon. Him being a slower falcon semi clone needs to end, just upping the physical power of his moves while ignoring the real issue he suffers from isn’t helping.

Redo his entire moveset. Give his recovery a boost and allow him to glide/fly similar to how he could in oot, give him the projectile that can be hit back and forth for a deadman’s volley. Maybe give him the dual blades from windwaker, or a trident (yeah I know technically his true form ganon is what uses the trident, but it’d still be more true to canon than currently.

Right now the only things he really has that are canon, are his side tilt, and his flame choke.
 

Xelrog

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Ganon isn’t even close to canon with his sword. That thing was from a tech demo for gcn, he’s never even used that officially.

If anything he needs to be more close to canon. Him being a slower falcon semi clone needs to end, just upping the physical power of his moves while ignoring the real issue he suffers from isn’t helping.
That would be a very, very bad idea. It would piss off a TON of players (every Ganon main) and make for a really lousy business move as a result. This is the reason clones are not completely reworked--it has to be done gradually, and then only when there's a level of consensus.

That said, I agree with the first two changes you mentioned, and in fact have mentioned them a couple times before. Bear in mind we're speaking hypothetically here because none of this is going to happen until at the very earliest the next Smash game, but given the option, I would replace Warlock Punch (a useless move in practice) with a magic projectile and replace his recovery with some form of limited flight. Maybe allow Flame Choke out of it to retain some ability to use it as a command grab.
 

Idon

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Ganon isn’t even close to canon with his sword. That thing was from a tech demo for gcn, he’s never even used that officially.

If anything he needs to be more close to canon. Him being a slower falcon semi clone needs to end, just upping the physical power of his moves while ignoring the real issue he suffers from isn’t helping.

Redo his entire moveset. Give his recovery a boost and allow him to glide/fly similar to how he could in oot, give him the projectile that can be hit back and forth for a deadman’s volley. Maybe give him the dual blades from windwaker, or a trident (yeah I know technically his true form ganon is what uses the trident, but it’d still be more true to canon than currently.

Right now the only things he really has that are canon, are his side tilt, and his flame choke.
Yeah, but then you'd have to do something with the Heavy Falcon moveset.

It'd be a design decision made only for fans and would have less hype than a full reveal, and I think that's the biggest reason they won't do it.
My only ideas for it is to put it on Blood Falcon, Black Shadow or Deathborn, but that's not exactly likely considering Sakurai's deadset on Falcondorf.

Though, it would be kinda cool to see the Warlock Punch mirror the Falcon punch and summon a giant charging darkness bull in place of a firebird.
 
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Quillion

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And it doesn't mean he shouldn't have it either. Honestly, the kaiju-esque Bowser doesn't really represent Bowser's current personality and design; the animations/appearance of old Bowser make them seem like two whole different characters. Practically all 3d incarnations of Bowser don't resemble kaiju Bowser in any way. Keeping that version around isn't preferable in my eyes.

And to answer your question, It'd depend on how well it worked. Ridley's personality gets across just fine in his Smash-original incarnation and Ridley himself is bipedal in a lot of games if I remember correctly. I'm sure he was in at least OG Metroid, Super, Fusion, and Prime 1, as those are the only Metroid games I've played.

Ridley standing on 2 or 4 legs wouldn't change his whole "murdery dino space pirate" personality he has going on I would think, compared to Bowser who drives fancy cars and wears wedding suits nowadays.
Things need to change in the transition to Smash. It's not like Smash is a pure platformer like Mario is; it's a fighting game with some elements being rougher than in canon. Mario gets to be more serious than he normally is bar Strikers. Shouldn't Bowser reflect that transition, too?

I'm still asking for Ike to get his goddamn sword beams ten years after Brawl came out. Where are my goddamn sword lasers, Sakurai?!
Seriously, what is it with people wanting characters to have projectiles just because it's their "signature move"? Again, NO ONE wants Zelda to get her Light Arrow back, and that is her signature weapon.

You said they "keep changing characters to make them more canon" but outside of Pit, I can't think of any examples other than the changes made to a very small number of characters in Ultimate, all of which I feel were for the better, especially the ones you named.

It'd be nice if Smash could also catch up with some of their in-universe voices as well. Animal grunts from 2008 isn't cutting it anymore.
I didn't say all characters, I only said certain characters. I just feel that those certain characters are significantly less enjoyable than their previous selves.

I have absolutely no idea how anyone can complain about Link when we still have two clones who use the old moveset and the changes are so minute to begin with. What, they made it so the bombs are remote-detonated now? His grab comes out faster with less range? Plenty of characters get these kinds of changes from game to game, so I don't see why Link gets so much grief over it.
It's only minute in your opinion. And again, Young Link and Toon Link feel too light to be the Link I appreciate.
 

Idon

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Things need to change in the transition to Smash. It's not like Smash is a pure platformer like Mario is; it's a fighting game with some elements being rougher than in canon. Mario gets to be more serious than he normally is bar Strikers. Shouldn't Bowser reflect that transition, too?
He should and he has. Unlike his original games, Bowser is now a playable character with moves fit for a fighting game including grabs and kicks. If he was 1:1, he'd grab Peach and sit on world 8-8.

Mario being more aggressive and serious still retains his appearance and personality as Mario; in Mario games, he still gets angry and serious occasionally, even if he's more peppy otherwise. Melee/Brawl Bowser isn't even close to what Bowser is like nowadays, in any incarnation. That Bowser's more similar to a feral kaiju than the princess kidnapper that people know him for.

If Mario suddenly changed his posture and appearance to a realistic Italian Mafia thug in his transition to Smash, I could see the comparison, but otherwise, this seems like a strenuous way to justify why you like Melee/Brawl Bowser more and why that's right.
 
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link2702

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That would be a very, very bad idea. It would piss off a TON of players (every Ganon main) and make for a really lousy business move as a result. This is the reason clones are not completely reworked--it has to be done gradually, and then only when there's a level of consensus.

That said, I agree with the first two changes you mentioned, and in fact have mentioned them a couple times before. Bear in mind we're speaking hypothetically here because none of this is going to happen until at the very earliest the next Smash game, but given the option, I would replace Warlock Punch (a useless move in practice) with a magic projectile and replace his recovery with some form of limited flight. Maybe allow Flame Choke out of it to retain some ability to use it as a command grab.
I highly doubt it would piss off every one of us ganon mains, especially considering we’ve all been clamoring for a new moveset for years. Most of us are indeed unhappy with his current strong but slow falcon set, we just tolerate it because we like the character.
 

Arthur97

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That would be a very, very bad idea. It would piss off a TON of players (every Ganon main) and make for a really lousy business move as a result. This is the reason clones are not completely reworked--it has to be done gradually, and then only when there's a level of consensus.

That said, I agree with the first two changes you mentioned, and in fact have mentioned them a couple times before. Bear in mind we're speaking hypothetically here because none of this is going to happen until at the very earliest the next Smash game, but given the option, I would replace Warlock Punch (a useless move in practice) with a magic projectile and replace his recovery with some form of limited flight. Maybe allow Flame Choke out of it to retain some ability to use it as a command grab.
But don't most Ganondorf players want him changed? Considering how bad he usually is competitively, there could be worse moves. Besides, if it's just that important to keep the clone moveset (for whatever reason) just give it to someone where it makes more sense. Appease people who like the cloneset and people who actually like Ganondorf. As one of my favorite villains and one of Nintendo's most important, I don't like that he's so shafted. Especially for the logic of "Well, some people might like it."
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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The main thing about Ganondorf that should be kept in mind is that he's supposed to be someone who can hit hard and KO quickly. But to keep him from being too good, his power is offset by weak mobility.
 

Arthur97

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The main thing about Ganondorf that should be kept in mind is that he's supposed to be someone who can hit hard and KO quickly. But to keep him from being too good, his power is offset by weak mobility.
That's all well and good, but he can keep the style but have an accurate moveset.
 
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