Making characters more faithful to canon is making some of them less fun to play

[Opossum]

I feel like the team focused in too heavily on the disgusting aspect of Wario’s character which is why the farts seem very out of place as the grossest thing Wario does is pick his nose.

I mean, he dons a used chamber pot as a crown in WarioWare Gold, and in Japanese manuals for Wario Land, there were apparently a lot of poop jokes. I'd say the grossness isn't too out of place.

I'd definitely love for his pummel to reference Shake-It though.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

How would you feel if Falcon got a gun-based moveset while his old moves were shunted off to Blaziken or Infernape because they "make more sense" on them?

Cpt. Falcon's moveset, like Fox's, was designed to represent the gameplay of F-Zero into the game. The gameplay genre is so different that you can't directly port the car's movements into Smash, but you can put some moves that have a similar feel as what you can do in F-Zero.

Now, in order to add more characters in Melee, they made those clones-semiclones. Ganondorf has got Cpt. Falcon's moveset because they had a small time frame to make the character and they created an "echo fighter" instead of a full new character.
Through the years, Ganondorf's animations were changed to have a more unique personality, but the main gameplay has always been that F-Zero based moveset.

So it would make sense to give the F-Zero moveset to another F-Zero character, not because it's canon but because it represents the gameplay of the series the character comes from.

In the meanwhile, Ganondorf has his set of iconic elements from the Zelda series that he can take inspiration from, and if you redesign his moveset completely, you can finally have a Ganondorf that represents what he really is.

Ganondorf's old moveset was so generic that you can give it to any other muscular humanoid dark villain and it would fit just fine, and Black Shadow is perfect for that.

Cpt. Falcon has never used a gun, even though it occasionally appears in his 3D model/renders. This because shooting bullets is not related in any way to the gameplay of F-Zero... maybe if it was Wipeout...

 

[Arthur97]

Bowser more and more does seem to be leaning to goofball, but he's apparently also a fairly decent dad for a villain.

I mean, he dons a used chamber pot as a crown in WarioWare Gold, and in Japanese manuals for Wario Land, there were apparently a lot of poop jokes. I'd say the grossness isn't too out of place.

I'd definitely love for his pummel to reference Shake-It though.

And the forward throw. For that matter, I liked how PM gave him the shake it punch down smash.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Bowser can be both beastly and sentient. It's not like he has to lean into one or the other. Smash should be his time to show off his primal side, though.

Yeah, I just don't like the idea of him being a "wild" beast, I guess, as that would mean he's just stupid, no sentience, contradicting his actions and speech.

Really I don't mind old or new Bowser, just at least keep the faster run instead of Train-Car Bowser; maybe throw in a "SHOWTIME!" voice-line and some other normal sounds of his instead of the mechanical big cat noises all the time...or actually use the big cat noises from the N64 Bowser at least:

(notably the first one, such an iconic roar)

 

[DarthEnderX]

And to be fair, wild beast Bowser still exists in the game in the Giga Bowser boss fight.

 

[Quillion]

Cpt. Falcon has never used a gun, even though it occasionally appears in his 3D model/renders. This because shooting bullets is not related in any way to the gameplay of F-Zero... maybe if it was Wipeout...

Explain this, then.

Cpt. Falcon's moveset, like Fox's, was designed to represent the gameplay of F-Zero into the game. The gameplay genre is so different that you can't directly port the car's movements into Smash, but you can put some moves that have a similar feel as what you can do in F-Zero.

Now, in order to add more characters in Melee, they made those clones-semiclones. Ganondorf has got Cpt. Falcon's moveset because they had a small time frame to make the character and they created an "echo fighter" instead of a full new character.
Through the years, Ganondorf's animations were changed to have a more unique personality, but the main gameplay has always been that F-Zero based moveset.

So it would make sense to give the F-Zero moveset to another F-Zero character, not because it's canon but because it represents the gameplay of the series the character comes from.

In the meanwhile, Ganondorf has his set of iconic elements from the Zelda series that he can take inspiration from, and if you redesign his moveset completely, you can finally have a Ganondorf that represents what he really is.

Ganondorf's old moveset was so generic that you can give it to any other muscular humanoid dark villain and it would fit just fine, and Black Shadow is perfect for that.

Zelda is an action-adventure, and Smash is a 2D platform fighter. It's alright if characters get changed between those games, too.

What kind of iconic elements do you even want from Ganondorf? Have you realized that he never uses the same weapon or fighting style more than once? All of his swords are wildly different. His brawling-style moves are a far more consistent facet of his character than using weapons or magic. Again, remember the ground punch in OoT, kick in WW. and kick and elbow strike in TP? Why do people take so much offense to the elbow when it was actually brought into canon?

Yeah, I just don't like the idea of him being a "wild" beast, I guess, as that would mean he's just stupid, no sentience, contradicting his actions and speech.

Really I don't mind old or new Bowser, just at least keep the faster run instead of Train-Car Bowser; maybe throw in a "SHOWTIME!" voice-line and some other normal sounds of his instead of the mechanical big cat noises all the time...or actually use the big cat noises from the N64 Bowser at least:

(notably the first one, such an iconic roar)

Melee actually used that roar sometimes in his smashes and a few other moves.

 

[Lenidem]

What kind of iconic elements do you even want from Ganondorf? Have you realized that he never uses the same weapon or fighting style more than once? All of his swords are wildly different. His brawling-style moves are a far more consistent facet of his character than using weapons or magic. Again, remember the ground punch in OoT, kick in WW. and kick and elbow strike in TP? Why do people take so much offense to the elbow when it was actually brought into canon?

You're incredible.

An iconic Ganon move? Oh, I don't know... maybe the energy ball that you throw back at his face in Ocarina, at his phantom in Ocarina and Wind Waker, at his puppet Aghanim in A Link to the Past, and at Nightmare in Link's Awakening - without mentioning the sorceress in Phantom Hourglass? But no, see him punching and kicking is way more personal and iconic, like, this is something that no other character can do. Every Zelda player, when he thinks 'Ganondorf', thinks 'stronger, slower Falcon Punch'. Nothing else.

And, you know... with this one projectile and a floaty recovery... he still could hit hard with all his other attacks...

 

[Xelrog]

You're incredible.

An iconic Ganon move? Oh, I don't know... maybe the energy ball that you throw back at his face in Ocarina, at his phantom in Ocarina and Wind Waker, and at his puppet Aghanim in A Link to the Past?

You listed all of one move. One move does not a moveset make, and is hardly worth the sarcasm.

I defend that Ganondorf is an extremely not-fleshed-out Nintendo character and has lots of room for improvisation. Hence why I don't think you can make much of an argument for his Smash representation being not canon enough, because... well, yeah, every canonical appearance he's had in the Zelda series has been wildly different in abilities and fighting style.

He's just a vague evil magician/swordsman/badguy dude with whatever powers a particular Zelda game's plot demands he has.

 

[Lenidem]

You listed all of one move. One move does not a moveset make, and is hardly worth the sarcasm.

I defend that Ganondorf is an extremely not-fleshed-out Nintendo character and has lots of room for improvisation. Hence why I don't think you can make much of an argument for his Smash representation being not canon enough, because... well, yeah, every canonical appearance he's had in the Zelda series has been wildly different in abilities and fighting style.

He's just a vague evil magician/swordsman/badguy dude with whatever powers a particular Zelda game's plot demands he has.

Zelda is no more fleshed out, and yet her moves in Smash reflect perfectly her status of princess of Hyrule and seventh sage. So I believe something more creative could have been and should be made for Ganondorf as well. Hyrule Warriors did a good job with the two swords and the trident - Ganon and Ganondorf being the same person, it's totally accurate. I only mentioned the most iconic move, the one everybody thinks of; to create an entire moveset that will never happen doesn't interest me at all.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Explain this, then.

In games he never shoots with a gun. Maybe in comics and other media, but that's not an iconic trait of the character.

Zelda is an action-adventure, and Smash is a 2D platform fighter. It's alright if characters get changed between those games, too.

What kind of iconic elements do you even want from Ganondorf? Have you realized that he never uses the same weapon or fighting style more than once? All of his swords are wildly different. His brawling-style moves are a far more consistent facet of his character than using weapons or magic. Again, remember the ground punch in OoT, kick in WW. and kick and elbow strike in TP? Why do people take so much offense to the elbow when it was actually brought into canon?

He occasionally uses melee moves, but all of the times he appeared in a game, he used a weapon or magic; limiting him only to melee moves is like representing only half of the character.

Ultimate's Ganondorf is specifically OoT ganondorf, and he in OoT did float mid-air all the time, so I think he should definitely get some air moves based on that.
He also seem to have a purple beam that stuns people (intro cutscene of the bossfight in OoT), and that iconic bullet you have to play pingpong with (if I remember, that move comes from A Link to the Past, done by Aghanim that's basically "beta Ganondorf").
He can summon phantoms of himself, he did it in OoT (forest temple boss) and Windwaker.
Ganondorf can seal people into crystals, maybe this can be referenced in a grab move...
The Triforce of Power should be referenced more into the moveset... I don't know how, because it's not really associated to a specific move.
He rides an horse, but I'm not sure it can be implemented in the moveset, unless you copy Wario's bike.
A reference to Dark World is also cool, maybe he should warp between dimensions while rolling or something.

Falcon Kick is unfitting IMO, and the Falcon Punch is questionable... it fits the character as manifestation of brute force, but maybe there are more fitting moves to put as neutral B, since brute force is already what all his neutral moves are based on.
The down air neutral is unfitting too, too much "acrobatic" and not really brute and dark like it should be.
The side B also, it's ok that it references an attack he had in OoT, but that dash at the beginning is clearly a remaining of Cpt Falcon. I personally would keep the reference to that gound punch, but switch it to a different move (maybe down air neutral? Or down B, adding shockwaves on impact like in OoT), and especially without grabbing the opponent.

Anyway I think that Ganondorf still feels disrespectful enough in Smash Ultimate, my problem with him is that they replaced some of his melee moves with moves ripped from other sword characters, instead of getting new moves that fit his personality more (and it gets boring when the game is already filled with samey swordman movesets).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

And to be fair, wild beast Bowser still exists in the game in the Giga Bowser boss fight.

At this point, Giga Bowser is the only Bowser variant who can get away with sounding like a real world beast.

 

[Yung Nikey]

I really wish they made ganon like "mage ganondorf" from the legacy xp PM build. Ganon in the games (especially OoT which both melee and ult ganon is based off of) dont even use any physical combat, so I disagree with the ganondorf part of the OP

 

[Quillion]

You're incredible.

An iconic Ganon move? Oh, I don't know... maybe the energy ball that you throw back at his face in Ocarina, at his phantom in Ocarina and Wind Waker, at his puppet Aghanim in A Link to the Past, and at Nightmare in Link's Awakening - without mentioning the sorceress in Phantom Hourglass? But no, see him punching and kicking is way more personal and iconic, like, this is something that no other character can do. Every Zelda player, when he thinks 'Ganondorf', thinks 'stronger, slower Falcon Punch'. Nothing else.

And, you know... with this one projectile and a floaty recovery... he still could hit hard with all his other attacks...

Zelda is no more fleshed out, and yet her moves in Smash reflect perfectly her status of princess of Hyrule and seventh sage. So I believe something more creative could have been and should be made for Ganondorf as well. Hyrule Warriors did a good job with the two swords and the trident - Ganon and Ganondorf being the same person, it's totally accurate. I only mentioned the most iconic move, the one everybody thinks of; to create an entire moveset that will never happen doesn't interest me at all.

Why do you say that Zelda's moveset is more fitting? Just because she's using magic spells that Link used in OoT?

So if Link can punch with explosive force in two games, why can't Ganondorf punch with explosive force?

Again, the Light Arrow is a more iconic move for Zelda than anything she's ever done in her series (which isn't really much, let's be real). But everyone, you included, see the goddess spells as more fitting for her than a bow in Smash.

He occasionally uses melee moves, but all of the times he appeared in a game, he used a weapon or magic; limiting him only to melee moves is like representing only half of the character.

But again, at least Ganondorf's brawling-type moves are the most consistent part of his character. You can say he wields weapons and magic all the time, but almost none of those weapons or magic are wielded consistently. His twin rapier-katanas were only in one game. His execution sword made of light was only in one game. His phantom summoning was only in one game. His spreadshot of energy balls was only in one game.

Sure there's his Dead Man's Volley, but see my response about Zelda's Light Arrow. About Ganon's trident, see below.

Nearly every time Mario engages in melee combat, he uses a hammer. He only really did brawling in one game.

Next you'll say, "but that's an RPG thing," am I right? Thing is, Mario's hammer is way more consistent as a part of his fighting style than brawling ever was. Melee combat never comes up in the mainline games or NSMB series aside from SM64; his main method of combat is the Goomba Stomp. Mario's melee combat comes up in the RPGs more, and it's clear that given the choice, he always uses a hammer.

And yet barely anyone wants Mario to use his hammer.

 

[Arthur97]

Why do you say that Zelda's moveset is more fitting? Just because she's using magic spells that Link used in OoT?

So if Link can punch with explosive force in two games, why can't Ganondorf punch with explosive force?

Again, the Light Arrow is a more iconic move for Zelda than anything she's ever done in her series (which isn't really much, let's be real). But everyone, you included, see the goddess spells as more fitting for her than a bow in Smash.



But again, at least Ganondorf's brawling-type moves are the most consistent part of his character. You can say he wields weapons and magic all the time, but almost none of those weapons or magic are wielded consistently. His twin rapier-katanas were only in one game. His execution sword made of light was only in one game. His phantom summoning was only in one game. His spreadshot of energy balls was only in one game.

Sure there's his Dead Man's Volley, but see my response about Zelda's Light Arrow. About Ganon's trident, see below.

Nearly every time Mario engages in melee combat, he uses a hammer. He only really did brawling in one game.

Next you'll say, "but that's an RPG thing," am I right? Thing is, Mario's hammer is way more consistent as a part of his fighting style than brawling ever was. Melee combat never comes up in the mainline games or NSMB series aside from SM64; his main method of combat is the Goomba Stomp. Mario's melee combat comes up in the RPGs more, and it's clear that given the choice, he always uses a hammer.

And yet barely anyone wants Mario to use his hammer.

Do you realized how much of a stretch that ring is? I'd also hardly call it explosive.

Also, bear in mind, the hammer is still fairly uncommon and never really referenced outside of those RPGs anymore. If this were Paper Mario, then, yes, hammers would be almost necessary, but it's not.

 

[Quillion]

Do you realized how much of a stretch that ring is? I'd also hardly call it explosive.

Also, bear in mind, the hammer is still fairly uncommon and never really referenced outside of those RPGs anymore. If this were Paper Mario, then, yes, hammers would be almost necessary, but it's not.

The Fist and Expert Rings are only as much a stretch as Zelda using the goddess spells.

And RPGs or not, the hammer is still a more consistent method of combat for Mario than straight brawling. Way more than anything Ganon has done.

 

[Lenidem]

I will develop later, but consistency and canon are two different things.

 

[Arthur97]

The Fist and Expert Rings are only as much a stretch as Zelda using the goddess spells.

And RPGs or not, the hammer is still a more consistent method of combat for Mario than straight brawling. Way more than anything Ganon has done.

For one, Zelda had to be very creative since she doesn't normally fight, Link and Ganondorf do.

For Mario, his brawling is better you'd think. Why? Because he kicks more than he punches which really fits given his lower body strength must be impressive.

 

[Quillion]

For one, Zelda had to be very creative since she doesn't normally fight, Link and Ganondorf do.

For Mario, his brawling is better you'd think. Why? Because he kicks more than he punches which really fits given his lower body strength must be impressive.

It's not like Ganondorf did much in OoT other than throwing magic balls. They had full privilege to base Ganondorf's moveset on the charged ground punch he did (alongside this piece of artwork) into a moveset. Besides, heavies at the time weren't supposed to have good projectiles since that would make them incredibly annoying to kill. Bowser still doesn't.

Again, why are you okay with extrapolating Mario's kicks from his jumping ability, but not with adapting Ganondorf's brawling from his brawling moves in his actual canonical Zelda games?

 

[Necro'lic]

It's not like Ganondorf did much in OoT other than throwing magic balls. They had full privilege to base Ganondorf's moveset on the charged ground punch he did (alongside this piece of artwork) into a moveset. Besides, heavies at the time weren't supposed to have good projectiles since that would make them incredibly annoying to kill. Bowser still doesn't.

Again, why are you okay with extrapolating Mario's kicks from his jumping ability, but not with adapting Ganondorf's brawling from his brawling moves in his actual canonical Zelda games?

Because there is more to Ganondorf than just brawling, which is pretty much all Melee/Brawl/4 Ganondorf was. Mario at least has a good amount of canonical abilities under his belt as is. Ganondorf, even if we can agree he doesn't have none, a pretty popular opinion, that means he only has one.

 

[Quillion]

Because there is more to Ganondorf than just brawling, which is pretty much all Melee/Brawl/4 Ganondorf was. Mario at least has a good amount of canonical abilities under his belt as is. Ganondorf, even if we can agree he doesn't have none, a pretty popular opinion, that means he only has one.

You know what? I admit defeat here. I can't really argue against this. Ganondorf really is unique in his lack of faith to canon, and even if his abilities are inconsistent, King K. Rool's are even more. And yet he has his Krownerang from DKC1, Blunderbuss from DKC2, Propellerpack from DKC3, and Boxing Glove F-Smash from DK64, all varied abilities that K. Rool has had over his tenure as the big bad of DK. I can definitely see why some people want Ganondorf to have more than barehanded moves and sword moves that feel like token "here, you happy now?" pandering rather than homaging his abilities.

I still miss the elbow and kicks, though. I can't imagine any moves that would be as brutally enjoyable as them. And Black Shadow is nowhere near as half as awesome as Ganondorf, so shunting off the moveset to Shadow would feel like thievery.

 

[Xelrog]

I enjoy Ganondorf's big mean sword and would also enjoy being able to play as Black Shadow. I'm a fan of both of these things.

 

[Quillion]

I enjoy Ganondorf's big mean sword and would also enjoy being able to play as Black Shadow. I'm a fan of both of these things.

To this day people still wish Mario still had the tornado down B instead of Doc. How well would you think Black Shadow getting all of Ganondorf's fan-favorite moves would go? We also can't ignore everyone who likes the combination of the sword smashes and the barehanded remainder of the moveset. Black Shadow getting the old moveset would anger more people than it's worth.

 

[Arthur97]

To this day people still wish Mario still had the tornado down B instead of Doc. How well would you think Black Shadow getting all of Ganondorf's fan-favorite moves would go? We also can't ignore everyone who likes the combination of the sword smashes and the barehanded remainder of the moveset. Black Shadow getting the old moveset would anger more people than it's worth.

Some people, but how many others simply don't care who gets the tornado? Besides, Mario still has it in his dair, and it's still annoying. Everyone is never going to be pleased, but most will just go with the punches.

 

[Quillion]

Some people, but how many others simply don't care who gets the tornado? Besides, Mario still has it in his dair, and it's still annoying. Everyone is never going to be pleased, but most will just go with the punches.

Don't argumentum ad populum at me.

Most people rolled with the punches when Ganondorf and Bowser were in their original states. Why change that when that has a higher chance of angering people?

 

[Xelrog]

Most people rolled with the punches when Ganondorf and Bowser were in their original states. Why change that when that has a higher chance of angering people?

You're the only person consistently complaining about them, and every time you do people repeatedly post in approval of the changes.

 

[Arthur97]

Don't argumentum ad populum at me.

Most people rolled with the punches when Ganondorf and Bowser were in their original states. Why change that when that has a higher chance of angering people?

Why are you suddenly bringing this back?

 

[Luigifan18]

You're the only person consistently complaining about them, and every time you do people repeatedly post in approval of the changes.

It's like the exact opposite of argumentum ad populum. No, I don't mean "appeal to obscurity", I mean... well... "This is popular because I like it, everyone else can go **** themselves!!1!!1" In other words, the argument of a man who has not only flunked his debate class, he's somehow gotten a grade several levels below an F.

 

[1FC0]

Some characters would be worse by sticking to canon. is the first one that springs to mind, remember brawl?

What do you mean? They made PT more cannon by removing stamina (the games have no stamina), by making Pokemon Change quick (in the games switching Pokemon has extremely high priority suggesting that it is extremely quick to do so), and by making Pokemon Change work in the air (Pokemon can by switched out, even if they are airborne due to Flying type/Levitate/Magnet Rise/Telekenesis/Air Balloon). The Pokemon Trainer from SSBB is less canon than the one from SSBU. Pokemon Trainer got improved greatly by making him more canon.

 

[Ez Quinn]

Also, new ganon is so much better than the old one. Competitively speaking ganon has always been bottom tier, so these changes really don’t make him any worse or better. I find this ganon so much more fun to play than previous iterations and I’m all for making him and other characters an canon as possible. But at the end of the day, it’s just a game we should have fun at, if you don’t like how they changed the character, then don’t play ‘em. the game has 70+ fighters to choose from. So if you can’t find one you like them find a new game.

And btw I’m really upset you’re hating on botw link, we have three links all basically with the same moves. So on that front you just need to stop

 

[Quillion]

Also, new ganon is so much better than the old one. Competitively speaking ganon has always been bottom tier, so these changes really don’t make him any worse or better. I find this ganon so much more fun to play than previous iterations and I’m all for making him and other characters an canon as possible. But at the end of the day, it’s just a game we should have fun at, if you don’t like how they changed the character, then don’t play ‘em. the game has 70+ fighters to choose from. So if you can’t find one you like them find a new game.

And btw I’m really upset you’re hating on botw link, we have three links all basically with the same moves. So on that front you just need to stop

But Smash Ultimate's engine is so smooth yet skillful. I'm not going back to previous Smash games to play as iterations of characters I enjoy more.

We need the characters to be more polished and engaged with the engine between games, not changed in unnecessary ways.

Sometimes change can be good, like Wario's Shoulder Bash and Donkey Kong's Roll Attack for their Dash Attacks, but the way they changed Link, Bowser, and Ganondorf just doesn't appeal to me.

 

[Arthur97]

Sometimes change can be good, like Wario's Shoulder Bash and Donkey Kong's Roll Attack for their Dash Attacks, but the way they changed Link, Bowser, and Ganondorf just doesn't appeal to me.

And here we have the root of the issue. It's okay to have opinions, but the move to canonity overrides your one opinion. Now, had they moved away from canonity, your argument might gain more traction.

 

[BravadoMan_13]

I disagree with the title. I personally enjoy Bowser way more than in Melee and Brawl. Bowser standing more upright makes him more threatening who will hit you like a freight train. Ganondorf does feel better than his previous appearances, but I feel there could be some more improvement and it's getting there.