Making characters more faithful to canon is making some of them less fun to play

[Christian_CAO]

I can respect that you enjoyed the old moves and animations of those characters.

The topic about things becoming more canon doesn't equate to them being more fun is... subjective.
Some people like it, some people don't. That's just how it goes. Like it or lump it.

Bowser... it is what it is. Now he's not as scary as before. I'd be fine with him staying the same but given more options with his neutral b (fireballs and flamebreath based on how you press it would be nice). Slight changes and more armor would've been ideal but what we have now isn't terrible.

Link they're cool changes but there's more to learn now so I can see why some mains may not be up for that task after their prior investments with him. I only wish they changed a bit more things about him. There are three Links in the game, though toon link was the one I was banking on getting a few changes more so than Link. Young link with fire arrows, TOon link with the leaf glider updraft for a recovery and our BoTW Link with the niceness he has currently but magnet hands for his grab and, though it'd be ironic to toon link, a leaf glider for his recovery with Revali's gale would've been neat.

Ganondorf no longer being a Falcon clone is one of my dream changes and it still hasn't been entirely rectified but it's fine.
The day they abandon the meaningless loyalty to the fans of the character and make the game how they want to, respecting their own creative freedom and doing all sorts of things that they'd normally not due to consistency for the sake of the fans will be a wondrous day.
Ganondorf the clone was a creation of time constraints and compromise. He stuck because of that meaningless loyalty to consistency and only gradually began to change slightly in each iteration due to fan outcry. Now he's at least doing different enough things to not feel entirely uninspired.

In smash, Ganondorf is the techchase king. The lord of punishment. The duke of Disrespect.
All of that could change if he were made more canon. I'd welcome it. I've always welcomed it and I will never not abdicate for a more ganondorfy ganondorf. Slap his old moveset (minus the sword) onto Black Shadow and give falcon his true franchisee and give us the dorf of all dorfs. One with true enmity and majesty behind his moves and demeanor. The True King of the Gerudo must reign supreme. It's not what you have but how you use it. People who can't see the potential of adding more magic, evil energy, swords, floating, phantom movement, weapon mastery, brute force of the triforce of power, and an ability to transform into various creatures are only thinking about what they can understand at a surface level. Dig deeper than what you can perceive and you too would come to want more for this character who truly deserves more.

He's the immortal embodiment of the demon king Demise, the demon thief, the gerudo king, the warlock warmonger ...
I think that he should be doing a bit more with his piece of the triforce, than hitting stuff harder than most, don't you?

None of this means that it would be "fun" though. Like I said. Fun is subjective. Better is also subjective. But objectively giving him more canonical abilities would at least be representing the character as himself and not just as heavy falcon with a murder streak (a role that could easily be given to a more deserving falcon clone in black shadow).

 

[Arthur97]

I think that was something that got lost in translation, IIRC. Wario in Japan gets heavily associated with toilet humor, so that's likely where the Waft comes from.

That still doesn't excuse the almost disrespectful neglect of Wario Land.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I would like all characters to be updated to be more canon... I honestly prefer them being as canon as possible.
Though, the changes that have been done aren't all that canon at all...

Ganondorf uses his sword, though he's still very different than how he's portraied in the Zelda games, magic and all.

Bowser doesn't fire fireballs, he doesn't launch hammers, and honestly I would have sacrified Bowser Jr. completely to give the Clown Car to him, because he's the original user and it would have made sense as an up-special move for him (maybe Bowser Jr could have been focused on the paintbrush/Shadow Mario thing instead?).

I would like to see Young Link use the masks and the ocarina.

I want to see Kirby's up B replaced with a warp star, because that's what makes most sense as his recovery... remove it as an item if you think it would be confusing to have two versions of the same thing used in different places (but apparently it wasn't an issue for the baseball bat and Ness, or Peach and the parasol in Melee).

Let Donkey Kong launch barrels like in the arcade game! Even as a final smash if there's no place for that in the base moveset.

etc...

I agree that some characters looked more fun before, especially Smash 4 Ganondorf and Melee Bowser, but after being modified, they IMO still don't fit their canon version enough. Bowser is not a wrestler in the Mario games and Ganondorf had a sword a couple of times but the way how he used it was much different (in twilight princess it was a light sword and not that heavy thing he has in Smash). Ganondorf in OoT mostly fought by using magic.

 

[BirthNote]

He, a grown man, knocked out a twelve year old. Oh yeah, great showing. Also, Wind Waker itself had Link fight him duel wielding swords. Poor example.

My thoughts exactly. I mean seriously, how could that be seen as a good example.

 

[Quillion]

Yes, the super jump is a modified version of Mario's regular jump. Still, it comes from somewhere and it is very recognizable. And there is also Mario's agility, his cape, his fireballs, even his punch-punch-kick combo from Mario 64, and now the water pump from Mario Sunshine.

I have no problem with Ganondorf punching and kicking - EVERYBODY does that in Smash, after all, you need normal attacks. The problem here is Ganondorf doing ONLY THAT. It makes no sense. In every game he stars in, he does much, much more than that.

Zelda's signature weapon is the Light Arrow. Should that be reworked as a regular move after losing it as a Final Smash?

I agree that some characters looked more fun before, especially Smash 4 Ganondorf and Melee Bowser, but after being modified, they IMO still don't fit their canon version enough. Bowser is not a wrestler in the Mario games and Ganondorf had a sword a couple of times but the way how he used it was much different (in twilight princess it was a light sword and not that heavy thing he has in Smash). Ganondorf in OoT mostly fought by using magic.

Why do you want to sacrifice fun for canon?

 

[Opossum]

I would have sacrified Bowser Jr. completely to give the Clown Car to him, because he's the original user and it would have made sense as an up-special move for him (maybe Bowser Jr could have been focused on the paintbrush/Shadow Mario thing instead?).

I never understood this line of thinking. The paintbrush was only ever used once outside of spin-offs, but ever since Galaxy, Jr.'s always been associated with technology and piloting mechs like the Megaleg or Junior Clown Car. Even ignoring the fact that the Koopa Clown Car and Junior Clown Car are different vehicles canonically, there's really no reason for Bowser to use it over Jr. Yeah, he used it first, but he's hardly associated with it.

 

[MangoPeachey]

Some characters would be worse by sticking to canon. is the first one that springs to mind, remember brawl? There's also characters who would be enhanced by sticking to canon. For example.
All of these characters just swing nothing but swords. Ike could use axes in his game and the rest could use lances. There's plenty of places to shove an alternate weapon in there to make more differences with them all and Marth.
Jigglypuff has some crazy moves she can learn in the real games. Replacing rollout with Ice Beam or something to give her a projectile would make her more fun to play, plus it would better represent the normal type and the crazy movepools it has.
Her upsmash should be her holding up the triforce like she does in Zelda 1. That way it's not only not useless, it's also a reference to NES times. ******* love a reference to NES times.
I'm sure more people who could be enhanced with a bit of extra canon but I don't know who they are since I haven't played that many games.

jigglypuff used to be a pure normal type, but as of right now jigglypuff is a pure fairy type

 

[Necro'lic]

jigglypuff used to be a pure normal type, but as of right now jigglypuff is a pure fairy type

Normal/Fairy

 

[MangoPeachey]

oh whoops, I really thought she was a pure fairy

 

[Opossum]

oh whoops, I really thought she was a pure fairy

You're probably thinking of what happened to Clefairy's line.

Jigglypuff became Normal/Fairy, but Clefairy became a pure Fairy type.

 

[Arthur97]

Who knows, Jigglypuff could change types again next in Sword/Shield.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Why do you want to sacrifice fun for canon?

I never said this. Honestly, I think that both versions of Bowser and Ganondorf aren't canon.
If you want a canon Ganondorf you should make him all floaty and give him a moveset based on dark magic, with the signature bullet that can be sent back if hit.

Ultimate ganondorf is still not canon as far as I know.

And for Bowser, I have never seen him fighting using wrestling moves in canon games... he's usually just a destructive monster, he walks into walls and destroys it, he shoots hammers and fireballs, etc. The recent version of Bowser in Smash doesn't represent that... the only faithful move is the down B stomp that comes from SMB3 and that's it.

Anyway, I think that all those changes that I suggested would be more fun than what we have now, especially Young Link using masks and the ocarina.

I never understood this line of thinking. The paintbrush was only ever used once outside of spin-offs, but ever since Galaxy, Jr.'s always been associated with technology and piloting mechs like the Megaleg or Junior Clown Car. Even ignoring the fact that the Koopa Clown Car and Junior Clown Car are different vehicles canonically, there's really no reason for Bowser to use it over Jr. Yeah, he used it first, but he's hardly associated with it.

Same can be said for the FLUDD, but Mario still has it in the moveset. Super Mario World's bossfight is still iconic enough, plus Bowser's clown car is an item in Mario Maker and can be associated with Bowser Jr and Bowser equally, depending on the creator of the level.
I think that the clown car would be a better up-B for Bowser than a generic spin that lets him float.
Well, technically you can still have both Bowser Jr and Bowser with a clown car, it wouldn't be the first time characters with similar features are in the roster as separate.

 

[Arthur97]

I never said this. Honestly, I think that both versions of Bowser and Ganondorf aren't canon.
If you want a canon Ganondorf you should make him all floaty and give him a moveset based on dark magic, with the signature bullet that can be sent back if hit.

Ultimate ganondorf is still not canon as far as I know.

And for Bowser, I have never seen him fighting using wrestling moves in canon games... he's usually just a destructive monster, he walks into walls and destroys it, he shoots hammers and fireballs, etc. The recent version of Bowser in Smash doesn't represent that... the only faithful move is the down B stomp that comes from SMB3 and that's it.

Anyway, I think that all those changes that I suggested would be more fun than what we have now, especially Young Link using masks and the ocarina.



Same can be said for the FLUDD, but Mario still has it in the moveset. Super Mario World's bossfight is still iconic enough, plus Bowser's clown car is an item in Mario Maker and can be associated with Bowser Jr and Bowser equally, depending on the creator of the level.
I think that the clown car would be a better up-B for Bowser than a generic spin that lets him float.
Well, technically you can still have both Bowser Jr and Bowser with a clown car, it wouldn't be the first time characters with similar features are in the roster as separate.

There's fire breath (64 amongst other appearances). The thing with Bowser is that in the 2D platformers, he has few attacks and one of those is jumping. He does punch in the 3D ones. However, his biggest issue is how he acts like a hulking monster in Smash. DK has realistic grunts, but at least he maintains his more goofy and cheerful side to some degree, Bowser doesn't really do this with maybe the exception of his down taunt.

 

[Just a random scrub]

I think that the clown car would be a better up-B for Bowser than a generic spin that lets him float.

Massive no-go for me. His current up B is one of his best and most versatile attacks and an invaluable part of Bowser's playstyle.

 

[osby]

There's fire breath (64 amongst other appearances). The thing with Bowser is that in the 2D platformers, he has few attacks and one of those is jumping. He does punch in the 3D ones. However, his biggest issue is how he acts like a hulking monster in Smash. DK has realistic grunts, but at least he maintains his more goofy and cheerful side to some degree, Bowser doesn't really do this with maybe the exception of his down taunt.

Really? I think his dropkicks and side special are pretty goofy.

 

[Opossum]

The one thing I'd definitely give Bowser is a change to his Neutral Special. The Fire Breath can be kept if it's held, but if tapped, it becomes a Fire Ball. While Bowser has used Fire Breath attacks, he uses the Fire Ball much more often, so I think it'd make sense to see it in Smash.

 

[Garteam]

Personally, I think Bowser's new aesthetic is actually much more threatening. It's more intimidating to have a giant monster run up towards you than to slowly slink his way towards you. Bowser's new animations trade in some of the brute force of Melee/Brawl for a little more control over his own body. It's kinda like having to fight either a crocodile or a bear: sure, the croc can produce more force and rough you up better with individual hits, but a bear is much more in control of it's mobility and is going to be a lot more aggressive than the crocodile.

I do see where you're coming from with the Bowser/Incineroar comparison, but they play differently enough from each other and there's no other way to do Incineroar's animations.

 

[Xelrog]

Just because Wario was mentioned, I've always been massively disappointed that Wario was 80% "gross fat guy" jokes and stuff from Wario Ware with almost nothing from his platforming installments. Ever since his reveal in Brawl.

 

[Lenidem]

Zelda's signature weapon is the Light Arrow. Should that be reworked as a regular move after losing it as a Final Smash?

I don't see what is has to do with my post (Mario feels like Mario while Ganondorf doesn't feel like Ganondorf). But if you wanna know, I've always thought that Zelda's moves are genius. They are taken from Ocarina of Time divine fairies, and it makes total sense for Zelda to use it, so she already 'feels canon'. She only starts using the light arrow in Wind Waker; while it would be cool to let her use it, I think it's not worth sacrificing one of the divine fairies moves, because it must be the three of them or none - or it could replace Phantom Slash, I don't care, but Light Arrow as a down b sounds wierd.

There is a difference between 'more canon' and 'up to date'. For example, the actual Link is no more canon than the ones who came before, he is just more like he is in one single game (and I don't really know how I feel about it).

 

[Arthur97]

Really? I think his dropkicks and side special are pretty goofy.

Eh, those seem more open to interpretation. They way they are done don't seem as goofy to me.

One oddity seems to be how they gave him a palm strike for his first jab. Why? He raw punches more than he does martial arts.

 

[Captain Shades]

I will actually go against you and say that I wish characters were more accurate to their games.

The first I would change is Bowser, I hate the “threatening monster” Bowser we have. Bowser is really a fun character within the Mario series and the fact that he cannot be as expressive. I think Sakurai’s vision of Bowser flat out ruins him and leads to a worse moveset overall as it’s completely built with a slow intimidation in mind. Bowser should be quicker, he is prone to jump head first into things after all, just play any Mario and Luigi game. Ironically, after playing classic, I kinda realized that Captain Falcon has more similarities to Bowser than Bowser. CF has all of Bowser’s strength and his playstyle and personality is all about over confidence and being a jerk, all traits that fit Bowser in the modern era. Bowser wouldn’t go into a battle with a generic monster look on his face, like Smash makes him out to do, he’d either be really ticked off or smiling as he is over confident about winning.
I don’t feel power with the Smash Bowser because Bowser is unable to express anything and his moves are just boring Monster/ big guy things. Why isn’t his neutral the more colorful fire ball, why not have the side Smash be the huge punches he does or that shell roll thing from galaxy. For a character that has exuded color and personality for a decade why drain all the color out both literally and figuratively just so he fits this scary NES Bowser ideal.


I also want to mention other characters I’d change.

Mario - He should be way happier, I hate the Knight in Shinning Rrmor approach Smash goes with as it drain Mario of color just like Bowser.

Luigi - Why does Sakurai see him as the weird brother? Luigi is just strange in Smash, and I wish he got a more scaredy-cat personality with bursts of confidence than the wobble, shoot myself across the stage weird Luigi we get. Maybe pull a moveset from the Mansion titles rather than make him this original yet part clone character.

Wario - What is this character? He feels very different from Wario. I feel like the team focused in too heavily on the disgusting aspect of Wario’s character which is why the farts seem very out of place as the grossest thing Wario does is pick his nose. Same goes for the chomp as it just seems odd. I’d rather have Wario grab opponents and Shake them quickly as a neutral as Wario does do that in WarioLand. The down Special could then be that ground shaking punch he has. I don’t mind Wario’s speed, but changing a few moves could make him even more hectic to fight against and arguably more fun.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The one thing I'd definitely give Bowser is a change to his Neutral Special. The Fire Breath can be kept if it's held, but if tapped, it becomes a Fire Ball. While Bowser has used Fire Breath attacks, he uses the Fire Ball much more often, so I think it'd make sense to see it in Smash.

Fire Shot did exist in Smash 3DS / Wii U. Too bad that it never got any encores.

 

[Arthur97]

Fire Shot would be great for a Dry Bowser clone. Blue fire of course. I think he breathed fire in NSMB2 at least.

 

[Garteam]

Much like how Wario is stuck in the debate of whether or not he's "cool tough guy" or "walking fart joke", Bowser also has a debate on his characterization. Some people say Bowser's role is as a threatening ruler and brutal monster, which is mostly reinforced by the platforming games and generally older source material (such as Mario 64 and Mario 3). Some others see Bowser as a comical villain with a large ego and a surprising soft spot for his family, which is enforced by the RPGs and newer games (such as the Mario and Luigi and Paper Mario series).

It's pretty clear that Sakurai prefers the first depiction, seeing how serious and brooding Bowser tends to be Smash. Hell, Sakurai literally made Giga Bowser because he was upset that Bowser was losing the aura of menace from the days of the NES.

 

[Xelrog]

I don't mind the evolution of Bowser. Back in Melee, we had no one else to fill the role of the monstrous character, so Bowser was a fit. Now we have Ridley, so variety doesn't suffer from making Bowser more canon. I'm fine with it.

Variety is the same reason I'm glad they chose the classic Simon design over the red-haired one. New barbarian character, not another bishonen anime dude.

 

[Quillion]

The one thing I'd definitely give Bowser is a change to his Neutral Special. The Fire Breath can be kept if it's held, but if tapped, it becomes a Fire Ball. While Bowser has used Fire Breath attacks, he uses the Fire Ball much more often, so I think it'd make sense to see it in Smash.

Honestly, I could definitely get behind this. At least this way, the old Fire Breath is present without completely shafting it, and Bowser gets a good new tool.

The should also apply this to the Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch. Tapping B should do a weak combo starter (with the latter reflecting projectiles), but holding B gives the full disrespect move as it already is.

Now, removing beloved moves such as Ganon's elbow and Bowser's headbutt with no alternative? Not okay.

Variety is the same reason I'm glad they chose the classic Simon design over the red-haired one. New barbarian character, not another bishonen anime dude.

Chronicles Simon actually looks more barbaric and original than classic Simon with all those leathers and furs. Classic Simon is just a Conan the Barbarian ripoff.

 

[Arthur97]

I don't mind the evolution of Bowser. Back in Melee, we had no one else to fill the role of the monstrous character, so Bowser was a fit. Now we have Ridley, so variety doesn't suffer from making Bowser more canon. I'm fine with it.

Variety is the same reason I'm glad they chose the classic Simon design over the red-haired one. New barbarian character, not another bishonen anime dude.

Or Classic Pac-Man. Mainly cause I really don't like that...other design.

 

[Xelrog]

Chronicles Simon actually looks more barbaric and original than classic Simon

Barbarians aren't bishonen. Full stop.

 

[Quillion]

Barbarians aren't bishonen. Full stop.

Chronicles Simon makes it work though.

But this is off-topic. Anyway, I don't agree that Ridley getting in would step on bestial Bowser's toes. Ridley can fly after all.

 

[Xelrog]

I don't think he steps on his toes. I think Bowser being completely non-canon to his Mario series representation (in which he has never, ever been beastly and monstrous) was forgivable because it filled a niche that didn't exist in Smash. Now it exists, a la Ridley, so Bowser being so far from his canonical representation is less acceptable.

 

[Quillion]

I don't think he steps on his toes. I think Bowser being completely non-canon to his Mario series representation (in which he has never, ever been beastly and monstrous) was forgivable because it filled a niche that didn't exist in Smash. Now it exists, a la Ridley, so Bowser being so far from his canonical representation is less acceptable.

Ridley doesn't make Bowser's Smash 4-on portrayal better. If anything, Ridley (and Charizard I guess) feels like a poor substitute like Tiny Kong for Dixie in DK64.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If anything, Ganondorf didn't get changed ENOUGH.

 

[Arthur97]

Ridley doesn't make Bowser's Smash 4-on portrayal better. If anything, Ridley (and Charizard I guess) feels like a poor substitute like Tiny Kong for Dixie in DK64.

So...Ridley and Charizard being themselves is a poor substitute for Bowser not moving around like a car which he never should have in the first place? Just...why?

 

[Quillion]

So...Ridley and Charizard being themselves is a poor substitute for Bowser not moving around like a car which he never should have in the first place? Just...why?

Because I just enjoyed Bowser himself being so primal. I can honestly live without the "vibrate across the ground" run; he can be primal without that. But I just want more hunched standing, claw strikes, and headbutts, and less dropkicks and punches.

Ridley cannot replace old Bowser.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Now, removing beloved moves such as Ganon's elbow and Bowser's headbutt with no alternative? Not okay.

Eh, you are really pushing it by calling them "beloved". Those moves aren't the first nor last thing people will associate them with.

Bowser's headbutt was so unused that it saw very little exposure, so it's unlikely that it was even considered a favorite of his old moveset. You are romanticizing those moves waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I don't think he steps on his toes. I think Bowser being completely non-canon to his Mario series representation (in which he has never, ever been beastly and monstrous) was forgivable because it filled a niche that didn't exist in Smash. Now it exists, a la Ridley, so Bowser being so far from his canonical representation is less acceptable.

Why people say this? He has always been a wild beast, occasionally being "cuter" because of the art style or the specific role in a game, but he usually is considered a raging wild monster.
Maybe people forgot about this?

Spoiler: Video, the scene starts at 2:42

and there are some other examples here and there.
He also used his claws in Super Mario RPG, that may be a spin-off but that's where a good part of Peach's moveset comes from (pan smash and parasol especially).

But to me what's really missing from Bowser's moveset is fire and lava. Come on... he's the lava guy, 90% of videogames have a lava world near the end of the game because of him.

If anything, Ganondorf didn't get changed ENOUGH.

I agree, and I think that the problem of losing old Ganondorf can be fixed by introducing Black Shadow from F-Zero with old Ganondorf's moveset. At least it would make sense as a Falcon "clone" and still be in-character at the same time.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I agree, and I think that the problem of losing old Ganondorf can be fixed by introducing Black Shadow from F-Zero with old Ganondorf's moveset.

100%

 

[TheCJBrine]

I wouldn't call Bowser a wild beast.

While he can be beastly, he has sentience; him roaring after becoming giant (and after being beaten before so) shows his rage and anger, similar to a lot of villains. He's pretty mad at Mario.

And even when he gets vicious, he still has a bit of a cool goof's personality, like in SMRPG and M&L.

Then there's the fact he keeps trying to kidnap the same girl over and over, going as far as to plan an entire moon wedding or even take over the entire galaxy.

 

[Curious Villager]

I never understood this line of thinking. The paintbrush was only ever used once outside of spin-offs, but ever since Galaxy, Jr.'s always been associated with technology and piloting mechs like the Megaleg or Junior Clown Car. Even ignoring the fact that the Koopa Clown Car and Junior Clown Car are different vehicles canonically, there's really no reason for Bowser to use it over Jr. Yeah, he used it first, but he's hardly associated with it.

One could argue Bowser jr's been using mech's since his debut. He used a Mecha Bowser as well as a Bullet Bill launching boat to directly battle Mario in Sunshine.

He mainly used the paint brush to slow Mario down during the chase missions if I recall correctly (as well as to frame him but yeah)

 

[Quillion]

I agree, and I think that the problem of losing old Ganondorf can be fixed by introducing Black Shadow from F-Zero with old Ganondorf's moveset. At least it would make sense as a Falcon "clone" and still be in-character at the same time.

How would you feel if Falcon got a gun-based moveset while his old moves were shunted off to Blaziken or Infernape because they "make more sense" on them?

You cannot separate the moveset from the man. The brawling is a facet of Ganondorf himself, not some attachments that you replace like a Mr. Potato Head.

I wouldn't call Bowser a wild beast.

While he can be beastly, he has sentience; him roaring after becoming giant (and after being beaten before so) shows his rage and anger, similar to a lot of villains. He's pretty mad at Mario.

And even when he gets vicious, he still has a bit of a cool goof's personality, like in SMRPG and M&L.

Then there's the fact he keeps trying to kidnap the same girl over and over, going as far as to plan an entire moon wedding or even take over the entire galaxy.

Bowser can be both beastly and sentient. It's not like he has to lean into one or the other. Smash should be his time to show off his primal side, though.