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Mafia Sleepover: The Finale [ Town Wins - Pokemon Sight seeing]

Protean-

Gorf|Washed Laundry
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I don't see what's so hard to understand or really even what's so weird about it.

I didn't like how Zen came into the game with a scumlist already. I don't give a **** about his questions, half of them were ****ing fluff, I've seen slots do that **** as town or scum so it's an overall null move. The scumlist tipped me off to some weird **** happening and when he in turn launched at Jexs after Jexs just responded to his questions, it just made me more confident that he was up to some odd ****. Whether or not it was nefarious, I wasn't sure about, as Zen has a history of making bat**** moves that seem completely anti-town on the surface as town. The push target itself seemed odd to me--Zen's already played with Jexs before and even pushed him enough to know that he wouldn't probably jump. Ranmaru's talked at lengths with Jexs in the social thread and knew he probably wouldn't jump. That's just not the type of person Jexs is, he's not nearly as high-strung as Soup or Werekill. The reason why I didn't wait it out is that I didn't see a need to--Zen already tipped his hand. That scumlist made me think this was a move he had already planned and since the target seemed off to me, I jumped at him rather than waited it out. His posts also did not help his case as a couple seemed like he was trying to bait him. So we pushed him. I thought he was null because I could see Zen as town doing this type of random **** but I thought the actions themselves were suspicious. Ranmaru entering the thread and Zen later admitting that this was him doing some stupid lolzen bet answered that my suspicions were well-placed but that they were zen doing stupid **** again and nothing nefarious like I thought.

Understand?

:substitute:
 

Protean-

Gorf|Washed Laundry
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Bro, you're gonna have a hell of a time getting me off your back. Just saying.
I don't know why or what you expect me to do. I can only explain my point of view so much before your stupid habit of just shouting a slot to death kicks in and I perish for it.

:substitute:
 

Protean-

Gorf|Washed Laundry
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By the gods...this is some unbelievable twisting on the second quote.

Zen said he wanted JeXs to be scum. That does not equate to Zen's every action in regards to JeXs being in line with trying to paint him as scummy. You are coming up with that idea to cover your real motivation in making Admidamaru look bad. If he wasn't trying to find scum, he would not have unvoted after the fact. That action is consistent with hesitance, i.e., weighing a player's alignment. Thus Amidamaru The Scatterbrained essentially admitted that he thought he was wrong by way of the unvote.

This is ridiculous. Protean can pull all the linguistic gymnastics he wants but it matters not. He did what he did and nobody likes it. The fact that he's recently chosen to question J of all people when there are plenty of other slots that deserve more to be questioned makes it that much worse. He can go. Stop talking in circles and hop the Protean lynch. If he flips green (unlikely) then Bunzy dies next. I know J, Werekill, and Gova have expressed some discomfort with the slot so this should not be difficult. Amidamaru needs to weigh in on this due to his unique perspective as the one being attacked along with his squire J being able to assist us with this direction.
except that happened right around the time ranmaru entered the thread, which is right around the time our read on him changed

:substitute:
 

Protean-

Gorf|Washed Laundry
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The question I have is why make a pressure wagon on a player and a person that I've seen in the past literally ask people how he should react? You won't get him to scrumble off pressure like that so if you're expecting him to drop newbscum tells off a simple pressure wagon, it's not gonna work, and both Zen and Ran should've known this. That's where my initial issue lied with them and soured the weird scumlist and follow-up pressure. I'd understand it if it was somebody that has a history of jumping one way or another but Jexs is so far the opposite of that type of person that it just seemed like a waste of time.

:substitute:
 

Protean-

Gorf|Washed Laundry
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@ Dramatic Flair Dramatic Flair : I've put my thoughts out on the table for you. I've practically laid myself bare. Do you still scumread me? If so, why? You out of all players seem to have a knack for being able to pick out my goals. What is my goal here?
 

Dramatic Flair

Raziek|Ryker
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Leviathan, this is only page 6. Why are you going for a lynch so early? Especially after only, what, 24 hours or so after the game started? Let the game go on more so we can get the maximum amount of connections with this lynch and future ones.

I'm really not a fan of fast early lynches, haha. Especially after that disco upick game.
**** like this is why I want to lynch you in literally every game we're in.
 

Dramatic Flair

Raziek|Ryker
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@ Dramatic Flair Dramatic Flair : I've put my thoughts out on the table for you. I've practically laid myself bare. Do you still scumread me? If so, why? You out of all players seem to have a knack for being able to pick out my goals. What is my goal here?
Because you don't make sense and you are being far more shallow-minded than I expect from you. You look like you extended to try and poke at Zen and got more than you bargained for. Now your defense is just not solid. I don't believe you don't see the benefits of starting a dialogue with a player at the start of the game.
 

Lore

Infinite Gravity
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**** like this is why I want to lynch you in literally every game we're in.
I honestly figured it was just because you don't like me, given how you've acted in general. What's so bad about not wanting a fast lynch?

Hell, it was YOU that got me lynched for no damn reason in that upick game. What the **** did I do to get you to dislike me so much?
 

#HBC | Leviathan

Smash Journeyman
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1.] @Protean The Shifting

The timing of Ranmaru's entrance to the game does not change my point. I was analyzing Zen's treatment of JeXs and your reaction to it.

2.] @ Lore Lore The Naive

When you think you have scum, you lynch them. You are trapped in a close-minded mentality. There is no such thing as RVS. There is no given time limit during which you have to lynch scum. These are arbitrary titles and ideas that made their way into this atmosphere for various reasons. I think Protean is scum. I think if he is green, then Bunzy is most definitely scum. There is almost nothing that will change my mind on this meaning their flip is what I need to progress my reads. Flips require votes.

3.] @ Dramatic Flair Dramatic Flair The Thorough

Leave Werekill be for now. He is young and does not know the proper ways; I will try to educate him. Bigger frogs to fry.
 

Lore

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You know Leviathan, I freely admit that I don't have enough good experience at all (I'm not counting my freak out games as proper experience), and I actually appreciate you giving me advice. If you want to continue with that, it would be awesome.

I'm still just not entirely comfortable with a fast lynch D1, though. Why give up more connections and posts for the sake of a single flip? Is it based on the logic that we can get a large number of posts on any day instead of "saving" D1 to be a long day full of posts?


Oh, and the layover is over, my plane is boarding. Shouldn't be too long, I suppose. Just going from Atl to Tallahassee, which is 45ish minutes if I recall.
 

Protean-

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Because you don't make sense and you are being far more shallow-minded than I expect from you. You look like you extended to try and poke at Zen and got more than you bargained for. Now your defense is just not solid. I don't believe you don't see the benefits of starting a dialogue with a player at the start of the game.
i got exactly what i wanted. zen was playing stupid, i was tryna pressure em to figure out what his game was/ why he was playing stupid, and that's what i got. i wasn't crazy about the allusiveness, so i called em out. it's really not that hard to follow.

@ #HBC | Leviathan #HBC | Leviathan if we were tryna paint ami in a bad light we wouldn't have dropped it when we did... you're crazy if you think THE BAD ACTIONS AMI ADMITS TO BEING THERE weren't worth questioning. sure maybe you didn't find em curious, but just cuz someone doesn't think the same as you doesn't make em scum :rolleyes:
 

Dramatic Flair

Raziek|Ryker
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I honestly figured it was just because you don't like me, given how you've acted in general. What's so bad about not wanting a fast lynch?

Hell, it was YOU that got me lynched for no damn reason in that upick game. What the **** did I do to get you to dislike me so much?
I said I want to and not that I'm going to. You need to start avoiding the multiple places where you're standing in the way of progress, intentional or no. You started with your lack of substance on the Jexs interaction because it was RVS and you again give me little by saying it's too early to lynch instead of waying in on Protean.

And I really don't dislike you. That disco game I jumped on you because I knew you would react. The claim was also unwieldy and looked highly suspect. I didn't give you much interaction and I didn't extend the day phase because I had a role that literally limited me to 100 words a phase. This post is over 100 words. You cannot play mafia in that fashion, especially in an extended scenario.
 

Protean-

Gorf|Washed Laundry
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Because you don't make sense and you are being far more shallow-minded than I expect from you. You look like you extended to try and poke at Zen and got more than you bargained for. Now your defense is just not solid. I don't believe you don't see the benefits of starting a dialogue with a player at the start of the game.
it's not like you to be this wrong

how do you not make sense of it? i literally put it right in front of your face. i explained the entire process without any holes. you can see point a to point b. how do i not make sense?

i don't believe this is a matter of being shallow-minded simply because there wasn't a deep mafia-related concept to get here. i thought zen had an hidden agenda, so i called him out on it. there's not much to get.

i didn't "get more than i bargained for" until i had already backed off of ami. i mentioned ran's posts made me feel better about the slot. then you and leviathan came in and mentioned you disliked my slot. you're wrong here too.

my defense is little because there's so little to explain and i've already laid it all out. i think your case on me is just as weak and you're starting to reach for reasons to dislike me.

i don't believe that you think that my issue is with the fact he tried to start a dialog. that's one hell of a strawman.

:substitute:
 

Protean-

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@ #HBC | Leviathan #HBC | Leviathan if we were tryna paint ami in a bad light we wouldn't have dropped it when we did... you're crazy if you think THE BAD ACTIONS AMI ADMITS TO BEING THERE weren't worth questioning. sure maybe you didn't find em curious, but just cuz someone doesn't think the same as you doesn't make em scum :rolleyes:
can i like my own posts pls

:substitute:
 

Lore

Infinite Gravity
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I said I want to and not that I'm going to. You need to start avoiding the multiple places where you're standing in the way of progress, intentional or no. You started with your lack of substance on the Jexs interaction because it was RVS and you again give me little by saying it's too early to lynch instead of waying in on Protean.

And I really don't dislike you. That disco game I jumped on you because I knew you would react. The claim was also unwieldy and looked highly suspect. I didn't give you much interaction and I didn't extend the day phase because I had a role that literally limited me to 100 words a phase. This post is over 100 words. You cannot play mafia in that fashion, especially in an extended scenario.
*sigh* Sorry. I apologise. I had just gotten that impression from the tone of your posts in the past, and I shouldn't have reacted so angrily.

Although the rest of your points are fairly valid, I did provide reasoning on Jexs when questioned; the only part that had rvs applied to it was the wagon itself. Now I'm actually looking at it more closely, which is why I've sent a few questions at Protean's way and find him a bit fishy.

So I might as well accept that quicker lynches aren't a bad thing D1. It still feels weird to me though.
 

#HBC | Amidamaru

Zen|Ranmaru
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@ Protean- Protean- it currently appears to me that you sought me as an easy target, banking on Ryker hatred of Zen to aid in your push. In the games I can recall of Murderbush and Zen, murderbush had pushed and succeeded in a Zen lynch Day 1 on the basis of distaste for Zen's play style.

Catherine Mafia Game Over! Lolilovesrain wins in Queenmaker!
Final Fantasy VIII Mafia | ~ Mafia Wins!! ~

Based on the language of your play so far, I feel you were hoping that a similar situation would emerge. You have been making it a point to defile Zen's name and play style in order to appeal to Murder.

Whether or not it was nefarious, I wasn't sure about, as Zen has a history of making bat**** moves that seem completely anti-town on the surface as town.
I thought he was null because I could see Zen as town doing this type of random **** but I thought the actions themselves were suspicious.
At this point, it was so frustratingly null that I felt the need to act on it. I've seen Zen approach the game with an incredibly townie approach before when he is town (latest GS3), seeing him here made me dislike him because it doesn't feel that he's doing anything with the similar purpose of trying to read people.
Ranmaru entering the thread and Zen later admitting that this was him doing some stupid lolzen bet answered that my suspicions were well-placed but that they were zen doing stupid **** again and nothing nefarious like I thought.

Understand?
i got exactly what i wanted. zen was playing stupid, i was tryna pressure em to figure out what his game was/ why he was playing stupid, and that's what i got.
if we were tryna paint ami in a bad light we wouldn't have dropped it when we did... you're crazy if you think THE BAD ACTIONS AMI ADMITS TO BEING THERE weren't worth questioning.
Whatever the **** he was doing with Jexs wasn't arbitrary in the slightest. I'm not sure why but he came into the game with some sort of target on Jexs and that raised suspicious on my part. I wanted to say it was pressure for the sake of pressure but that random spirit guide thing he had in his first post had Jexs as second on a scumlist.
I can see Ranmaru's thought process so much easier than Zen's bull****.
Again, it seems to me you were banking of Murderpush on Zen for lolzen bull****. Seeing that no one else seems to agree with you, I feel that your perception of lolzen is ingenuine. It seems to me that you had no intention to weigh Zen as you started your ruse the very minute that our slot posted:

Muderbush
Jex
dabuz
Werekill
Alakslam
Protean
Gova
Bardull
FroGheb
J
Leviathan
Amidamaru
Based on your later posts, it is clear that the spirit guide thing is what bothered you:
I didn't like how Zen came into the game with a scumlist already.
The scumlist tipped me off to some weird **** happening and when he in turn launched at Jexs after Jexs just responded to his questions, it just made me more confident that he was up to some odd ****.
You claim this to be strange, but Zen enters the game in this way very often:

NECROMAFIA | Game Over! Shortest game in Dgames?
Taco Bell Mafia: Game over. Who won?
Scott Pilgrim vs. The Mafia | GAME OVER: Infinite Sadness/Finest Hour

There is nothing strange about this other than the fact that Werekill did not comment on it. There is no reason that you, with much of your Zen expertise should see this as off. There is one reason I could see for it though:
Unvote

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#HBC | Amidamaru

Zen|Ranmaru
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I must go, but @ Protean- Protean- this is another example of your ingenuity:
The question I have is why make a pressure wagon on a player and a person that I've seen in the past literally ask people how he should react? You won't get him to scrumble off pressure like that so if you're expecting him to drop newbscum tells off a simple pressure wagon, it's not gonna work, and both Zen and Ran should've known this. That's where my initial issue lied with them and soured the weird scumlist and follow-up pressure. I'd understand it if it was somebody that has a history of jumping one way or another but Jexs is so far the opposite of that type of person that it just seemed like a waste of time.

:substitute:
I'm voting dabunz because, and I quote, "**** dabunz". Lynching him to me is always a crapshoot because he's the one guy who plays so strangely I can never get a solid read on what he's doing.

:substitute:
 

Lore

Infinite Gravity
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I didn't comment on it because I figured it was just basic Zen stuff. I answered his questions, but I had a gut feeling that the list was meant to gather reactions from people, especially since he had his typical "silly" questions in the post too.

After the last game we were both in (which is ongoing so I can't comment further), I've figured it safe to assume he would do this sort of thing at the start.
 

Dramatic Flair

Raziek|Ryker
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@ Protean- Protean- I'll let Raz go into why exactly he doesn't like you. I literally cannot believe you expect me to believe that the motivations you've claimed for your actions are legitimate. Zen putting Jexs on a random scumlist (with me as the leading suspect no less) is a scumtell? The bet he mentioned is worthy of any sort of acknowledgement? Ran's posts did ANYTHING to effect your read on Zen?

Tell me straight. Why did you originally move on Zen? Why are you scrambling to justify it after the fact instead of coming out with your real reasoning in the first place?
 

Lore

Infinite Gravity
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@MOD: Request Votecount

I'm down to vote now, but I want to see a votecount just in case it's an accidental hammer.

My biggest issue is still the quickness, especially considering how some people have still barely posted, but you guys have convinced me. I'll go with it. It DID work well later on in a couple games, so the more I think the more I realize that I guess it could work D1 too.
 

Protean-

Gorf|Washed Laundry
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ami... you know we ARENT tryna push you, right? were not tryna pin ryker against you cuz when he came in we had already decided to back off of your slot.

@ Protean- Protean- I'll let Raz go into why exactly he doesn't like you. I literally cannot believe you expect me to believe that the motivations you've claimed for your actions are legitimate. Zen putting Jexs on a random scumlist (with me as the leading suspect no less) is a scumtell?
i mean i won't speak for laundry but like i HARDLY took that into consideration. that only mattered when his following actions took place.

mbush said:
The bet he mentioned is worthy of any sort of acknowledgement?
yes

mbush said:
Ran's posts did ANYTHING to effect your read on Zen?
yes

mbush said:
Tell me straight. Why did you originally move on Zen?
fmpov, i got home and read up. laundry had asked me to comment on ami v jex, and i told em it looked like either zen being zen, zen tryna emulate his meta, or ran tryna emulate zen's meta. either way, to me, it looked like zen was posting a lot and not doing what he could to further a read, rather, he was tryna create one. the unvote looked like him tryna back out. we questioned whether or not it was worth pushing for him to stop playing as cryptically as he could. we DID think it was scummy, but it's not like we were drop dead convinced. unlike levi i don't need to lynch a scum read if i have it, i can, idk, let it develop or something.

mbush said:
Why are you scrambling to justify it after the fact instead of coming out with your real reasoning in the first place?
were being hard pressed. idk if you usually lay out your entire thought process whenever you make any sort of move in a mafia game, but i know i don't. if confusion arises and causes enough people to question my motivations, ill explain em. it's honestly not that hard. we hardly even have a chance to talk about anybody else because the thread has shifted itself to putting us in a corner. were being chastised cuz we didn't choose to take zen's shenanigans lightly.
 

Lore

Infinite Gravity
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I actually want to know what your reasoning is, since you are down to vote. I'm sure you can give that while you wait for the votecount.
Yeah sure.

His reasoning to begin with was pretty iffy, and his posts in general are long, meandering things that seem to contradict themselves half the time.

So far he has become a fairly decent scumlean, but it doesn't help that no one else really seems scummy other than the inactive people. And that's just because of inactivity in general. I want to see more from them, but I'm down with voting for Protean until I see more from other people.
 

Rockin

Juggies <3
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DAY 1, VOTING LIST

(2) Bunzy - Leviathan, Jexs

(1)Leviathan - Bunzy

(1) Jexs - Bardull,

(1) Alakaslam - Murderbush

Not voting - Frozen/Gheb, J, Alakaslam, Gova, Werekill, Admidamaru, Protean

with 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynche
Deadline is July 19, 2014 at 11:59 PM EST
 

Rockin

Juggies <3
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DAY 1, VOTING LIST

(1) Bunzy - Jexs

(1)Leviathan - Bunzy

(1) Jexs - Bardull,

(2) Protean - Leviathan, Murderbush

Not voting - Frozen/Gheb, J, Alakaslam, Gova, Werekill, Admidamaru, Protean

with 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynche
Deadline is July 19, 2014 at 11:59 PM EST
[Modified rule of Rule 2 for voting]

2. To unvote, use the command unvote. For example, unvote vote: Evil Eye. (You can also vote for another player, negating your previous vote Vote: Marshy Vote: Macman)
 
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Gova

I'm goin' for it!
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As for Jexs himself, I don't find his own posts very telling. He says very little when he posts and so I'm still trying to get a solid bead on him based on his own stuff. I think he's a town-lean at the moment, though, due to the way he handled Zen, but I'm not so solid on that read as I am on a couple of others (Bardull and JD at the moment, really).

Do you understand now?
uh, if you were still trying to get a solid bead on him up until that point why wouldn't you have let zen continue his thing in order to get a better read of jex? you had an opportunity as town to get some reads but you were like nah screw zen and screw reads obv

also, like ryker said, the bet about jexs' alignment is irrelevant; an excuse to justify things after the fact. i could make a bet with ryker right now about anyone's alignment and then push them and it would have no bearing on the game; that info might as well just not be there; for all you know it was just someone trying to get a read

also how do you have solid read on bardull and whoever the hell JD is? i almost feel like you're getting certain mafia games mixed up;

also please answer the questions in that one post i tagged you in
 

#HBC | Leviathan

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1.] Werekill, think of the actions that take place after I tell people to vote Protean- or any other player in conjunction with the context of where we are at in the Day. Half of the game is not even voting. No one has more than 3 votes. Many players can be considered null and lacking in contribution. While this is not a big deal considering the weekend, pressure on a slot to the point of asking for others' votes garners something for town: their behavior towards the slot that is in focus. Do you really think that everyone in the game is going to read mine and Murderbush's posts and immediately vote Protean-? No, but they'll naturally be prone to commenting on the subject due to its high visibility. It is, in essence, a method used to both vanquish my enemies as well as encourage the citizens to weigh in on them and a less redundant way of collecting opinions than asking everyone directly for their thoughts on him. So because I know a quick lynch will not actually occur, we are not giving up connections. There is no data showing that a longer Day is likelier to pay off more than in a shorter one.

That said, you seem a little anxious. I'm not particularly worried about what you do right now because you have at least expressed some opinions we can chew on while there are plenty of nulls sitting around.

2.] Protean-, I understand that you may simply think different than I would. That defense can be used for any action. I'm making a judgement call here. I don't think it's a coincidence that you're the only one who has interpreted Amidamaru's play the way you have; it reminds me of scum looking to contribute to the game with a different perspective for the sake of appearing as he is scumhunting.

3.] @ #HBC | Amidamaru #HBC | Amidamaru , what are your reads looking like?
 

Lore

Infinite Gravity
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Ahhh, that makes sense. I see what you mean.

On another note, it's less being anxious and more trying to decide on going against my preconceptions about the game. I've been a bit wishy washy in my head about all this, but I'm pretty sure I'm ok with it now.
 

BarDulL

Town Vampire
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V/LA for a cool minute. Haven't read since my last post 'cause evo and some other stuff, but I'll get caught up soon.
 
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