Mafia Sleepover: The Finale [ Town Wins - Pokemon Sight seeing]

[BarDulL]

I think you need to take a break. =P

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

Awaiting your comments on my #2635. Kantrip is the play toDay.

 

[BarDulL]

Listen, I get the whole Kantrip skepticism from you atm. I don't think he's done a whole lot this game, or at least not enough to warrant town reads from MB/Levi to be perfectly honest with you.

I'll consider going to Kantrip if you can convince me AI is Town.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

Talk to me about my #2635 first and why AI is a priority over him for you. You promised this to me. I'll do anything you like in return. Thanks.

 

[Kantrip]

Ran you're an idiot.

 

[Rockin]

Day 4

Arcane Inferno - Potassium, Bardull

Potassium - Admidamaru

Bardull - Leviathan

Murderbush - Gova

Not Voting - Murderbush, Arcane Inferno

--------------------------------------------------

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is August 19, 2014 at 11:59 EST

Murderbush has been prodded

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't even really remember what lead up to his Werekill vote or why he hammered at the end, it could have easily been a quick bus since Gova was looking out of reach on the final day of Day 3 after my unvote.

I've mentioned many times yesterDay that I did [and still do] not consider lynching Gova an option. Why do you mention him alongside Werekill?

 

[Kantrip]

Ghebs consistent back-door statements all game should be enough to see hes scum.

YesterDay Murder was trying to get him to give a solid read on me, as his posts were implying he thought I was town but he wouldn't admit it. Finally he said that I was townie but he left a backdoor to scumread me later on and said he would want me lynched before lylo.

His stances have been like this often it is just the one that sticks in my brain because it involved me. Clearly a load of bull. Bardull and Ami not seeing murder and Levi's townread on me is fair, if a bit dumb, but Gheb seeing it but leaving backdoors is scummy.

Frozen's play for the slot was always really townie and logical, and due to his efforts D1 the slot was on most people's town lists. However if you look back at what frozen was saying, you'll realize he was coming up with rational-sounding points, but he wasn't actually doing anything actively pro-town. His thought process just sounded smart and logical.

And then there's Gheb, who undid all of the good frozen did for the slot. He was repeatedly fence-sitty and left back-doors every time he made a statement. His angry posts yesterDay especially come off as very fake to me, and their culmination into an eruption at some light pressure was weirdly timed considering he wasn't in any real danger. He yelled at people for thinking he was scum, in part for not doing anything, and then he continued to do nothing.

He had some stances, but he never pushed them. When the game swung to Bunzy, he was nowhere to be seen as everything went down. Then he conveniently showed up post hammer to pitch in how absolutely scummy Bunzy's claim was.

If you're a meta driven player, read some of Gheb's past scum games and look at his mate bussing policy. Then read this game again and note the similarities.

Gheb needs to die toDay.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

My last game as scum was Tranquility where I did not bus anybody. And that game is already like half a year old or more. Before that I took another half-year break as well. The last time I've actually bussed a scummate of mine must have been AT LEAST a year ago. You can shove your 'past scum games' up your ass and actually start playing this game.

 

[Kantrip]

You've said yourself on numerous occasions that you have no problems bussing as scum, and I've seen it first hand.

My post stands.

 

[Kantrip]

But thanks for replying to the point specifically about meta rather than the rest of the post about this game only.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Just checked the archive, the last game I was scum in was Tranquility where I didn't actually bus anybody. The last game I was scum before that was Golden Sun mafia which is more than a year old, where I did not bus anybody and where I played as a hydra. The last game I was scum in and actually bussed scummates was Earthbound Mafia from 1.5 years ago.

When did it become a good idea to start pushing lynches based on outdated meta on Day 4 again? If all you can do is keep on shouting 'but he's bussing' then it probably means that you simply have no arguments. When I start to aggressively push for my lynches like I did yesterDay, you call me out for swearing. When I change my way of playing to make things easier on you, you accuse of not pushing my stances enough. When I push an incorrect lynch of course I'm scummy for it because I'm always scummy when I'm wrong - 'bad reasoning' and all the other stereotypical BS argument. And when I push a correct lynch of course the only explanation possible is that I'm bussing, right?

Or maybe you're just really ****ing off this time around and tunnel onto everything I do and twist it as scummy for reasons beyond me.

 

[BarDulL]

I don't see this as being wishy washy. He draws attention to Werekill and says Werekill is scum on a few occasions. Although I suppose I'm curious as to why Kantrip did not pursue Werekill yesterDay as opposed to Gova considering Kantrip's presumed track record towards Werekill. Guess I'll have to look this up later.


I don't get this part. Dabunz was pushing for a Levi lynch REALLY hard, while Werekill had Levi as Town. I'm not really understanding the implications of saying Kantrip (or Werekill) were keeping Levi at arm's distance when Dabunz was not. I don't feel that this is a strong or convincing point.

Yes, it's possible he was distancing Werekill but never fully committing to him, which makes me wonder why he wasn't voting for Werekill on D3.

Spoiler: Pushing Avenue's besides Levi to continue to roleblock him

---SILENCE WHEN AMI PUSHES MURDERBUSH----

I don't get it. We're playing in a 12 man game, where anything more than 3 scum is just silly. I don't think there are multiple mafia factions in this game. What is the implication of Potty being silent when you push for MB? Don't you think MB is scum?

First flag. Potassium replaces in, and takes quite a while to actually catch up, and invest himself in the game. He doesn't contribute anything but a J vote. Elaboration comes later, but the J vote was opportune. Both easy things to do as scum. His motive? To get an easy lynch, over Levi. (Which J was, he just let himself go without even a defense)

Yes, the J vote did not lead to good things. Then again, I was for the J lynch at the time as well (a lot of people were) because J's approach to the game was kinda weird honestly. I don't understand why 'getting an easy lynch' over Levi is an implication of Kantrip being scum though; I do not see a 4 man team in this set up Ran, there are only 12 players in all. Also, Kantrip as scum had no way of knowing that Levi was a PR, so there was no MO for Kantrip to keep Leviathan alive, or at least for the sake of roleblocking him. Your point here doesn't make much sense either.

Second red flag, and it is a big one. His wishy washiness towards Werekill. Initially he comes into the game stating how Were gave him a ton of red flags, but he flip flops on Were many times. As you can see, he eventually comes to the conclusion that he would want Gova/Werekill D3, but finally states he'd prefer not to have Werekill that day, and pushes towards Gova.

Yes, this is true.

Third red flag, he keeps Levi at an arm's distance. Consider that Were-scum was reading Levi as town and pushing for Levi to prove his claim to "test" it, but was the scum roleblocker in reality, preventing him from testing it. Now consider some scum-mates may either push Levi, or also push for him to prove his claim/stay alive. Dabuz pushed Levi as a lynch, but didn't do so convincngly enough. Potassium, has been pushing Levi to claim since he claimed, and even while we were pushing to lynch him. You can tell that he didn't quite care about Levi's claim being tested, as he even stated that there would be no chance of Levi saying he'd be RB'd until Lylo. This also shows that they aren't connected (like I previously suspected), but Potassium had the motive of keeping Levi alive so that he'd be suspected by others later in the game, to keep town confused.

I don't think Dabuz was intentionally poorly pushing Leviathan, albeit the push on his end was definitely reachy in how staunch it was. I don't think this is a strong point.

Fourth Red flag, he distances Werekill. He comes onto the werekill wagon D2 when Zen asks for his hand, and did a read up to page 8 with a werekill scumread. But as you can see, it was still pushed back in favor of a Gova lynch D3. So in my eyes, he didn't really care to read/find scum in werekill, only to keep him alive behind other slots. (Like Gova)

I don't necessarily disagree with this part.

Fifth and final red flag, Potassium is content with pushing avenues that are not Levi/Murder. (And of course, Werekill) He keeps Levi/Murder as TvT to continue to keep Levi alive at night, for the roleblocker to visit him. He pushes towards Gova (without a real scum read on Gova, just a pool) while pushing back his Werekill read. This shows that he isn't genuinely scumhunting, as you can see in the first quote that he sheeps onto Gova when Levi presents the pool. Later on when Levi moves to Werekill, he asks him "Do you town read him [Gova] now?" trying to push back to Gova.

[/quote]

I'm not really getting the part about not pushing avenues that are Levi/Murder. Are you saying he was trying to keep them alive so that we'd look at them later on and say "well, we gotta lynch these gais since the other peeps didn't flip scum?" You say afterwards that it was to keep Levi alive, but Kantrip could have just pushed for MB in this scenario to keep Levi as a quasi-chainsaw defense I suppose? I don't understand why you think Kantrip would go to such great lengths to keep Levi alive just for the sake of roleblocking him. It would have been better for scum to see Levi get off'd so that they wouldn't have to worry about roleblocking Levi anymore.

 

[Kantrip]

Gheb you're blowing off my points by citing them as separate incidents of you changing your style to try to please me or something.

You were always doing all of these things, if you can't deny that you did them or explain why it makes sense as town, they stand as valid.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

@ Dramatic Flair

BarDulL <-> Arcane Inferno > Gova

How do you feel about this for the rest of the game?

We believe it wins the game. We've been saying as much since last phase. However, I think I would put Arcane Inferno before Bardull as a result of the Bardull quick-hammer on Dabuz. It still bothers me because I feel scum would wait for a cop CC instead of quick-hammering a partner, although it could all be a gambit. Regardless, if not one, then the other.

We don't think Werekill's outburst against Gova yesterDay was faked. As such, we've moved him to the back of our previously 4-man (now 3) lynch pool. And with the reads reversed on Gova and Werekill, I'm taking a look at Gheb's shouting concerning the fact that he would have to have bussed both scummates. Then only problem is that we won't GET all 3.

@ #HBC | Amidamaru : You need to listen to us for a second. We are getting Bardull or Gheb toDay, almost certainly. We have Leviathan, ourselves, I believe we have Kantrip, and I doubt Gheb or Bardull will pass on the opportunity to oust the other.

Assuming the game does not end there, Leviathan will probably be shot, as he just cleared himself. At that point, there will be 5 players left and you will HAVE the traction for a Murderbush lynch. Gheb or Bardull will vote, as they would be the other option. Gova will vote because he has a stick up his ass. You will vote because you're paranoid.

I won't give it to you for free, but you'll probably end up with it, if you want it.

At that point, you have blown our chances to secure victory, because we cannot lynch both Gova and Gheb/Bardull at that point. You will likely find yourself in a LyLo with the two of them, with Potassium dead. (Or vice-versa, where Potassium is alive, and you get shot). HOWEVER, in the event that Potassium AND yourself are left alive with the remaining player between Gheb/Bardull and Gova, PROMISE me that you will not lynch Potassium after both Leviathan and I have died and flipped Town.

If you lynch Potassium in that scenario, you have gone completely rogue and thrown the game by lynching outside the Town's agreed upon lynch pool TWICE. (Once on us, once on Potassium.)

I don't we have anything left to reason with you at this point, because through the entire game, we've left all of our thought processes on the table, and still have been unable to sway you.

The only thing we really have left to add at this point is that it boggles the mind that you wish to lynch our slot over the Bardull/Gheb slots.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

Alright so Ran said I could vote you after you posted so

Vote: Murderbush

 

[Dramatic Flair]

Vote: Gheb_01

@ #HBC | Amidamaru : Will going through the game and talking about ourselves actually merit a response from you? (e.g. 'Why did we do this as scum?') Legitimately, is there ANYTHING we can do in this game that will cause you to even think about it, or is it just not worth our time to interact with you? Because we've been trying to force you to actually play with us since Day 2, where you stopped.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

I'm settled on you being scum. I don't want to come off as harsh, but I think it would be a waste of your time to try and convince me otherwise.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

Leviathan isn't confirmed in the slightest. We were the night target night 2 and will likely be the night target tonight.

@ #HBC | Leviathan sorry for claiming you to be one of the best players d1. You're really not good at all.

Murder > Potassium should win the game. If it somehow happens not to end there, then Levi should end it.

 

[Kantrip]

What the actual ****

 

[BarDulL]

I'm actually ok with going that route at least for now, EXCEPT AI should be in place of Levi if Kantrip flips Town; Kantrip said himself that Levi's alignment was mod-confirmed to him unless there's some ******* modding going on.

 

[BarDulL]

MB, I honestly don't believe you think Pot is for-sure Town, rather you're catering to Levi/Kantrip for positioning to keep yourself alive. If you were Town and looking at Kantrip's play as a whole, you'd realize that you're too staunch on something that I think most would agree you're being too staunch about (seems trendy =P).

 

[Dramatic Flair]

I'm settled on you being scum. I don't want to come off as harsh, but I think it would be a waste of your time to try and convince me otherwise.

Then will you two please stop hydra'ing together? You've been on horse**** theories the ENTIRETY of the game, and you two feed each other on it, from everything I can tell. I'm not just talking about your traitor theory either, although that was absurd.

Kantrip and ourselves should be nowhere near the lynch pool in this game. Even if you DIDN'T catch the Doc claim on D2, Jexs shouldn't have been on your radar. And Day 1 you had no business pushing Protean based on an imaginary Jexs scumflip. Half the time you're trying to play two steps into the future and it leaves you with no idea where to put your feet.

The only reason this game is challenging at all is because this Town is imploding. We're guilty too, as we should not have fake-claimed to get Leviathan. But these problems are entirely Town's own fault. First J, who refused to play. Then Leviathan, whose 'Holier than Thou' attitude left him feeling he didn't have to substantiate anything. Then our overzealousness and refusal to back down. And now your bottomless well of unjustified skepticism.

This entire game could have been avoided if these 4 players at any point would have actually interacted with each other, rather than being some combination of lazy, headstrong and self-justified. We reached out to J, then Leviathan, then you. And NONE of you would give us meaningful interaction. So we continued to pursue those slots, because what strong Town player who just refuse to interact like that?

It's no small wonder our readlist has been wrong thus far given that the game we set out in to play, looking to change how Murderbush normally operates, and be a strong Town force that co-operates with his peers, was met such unbelievable resistance, save for Alex, who got shot immediately after.

Do you not see why we've just wanted to say "**** it!'?

 

[Gova]

We don't think Werekill's outburst against Gova yesterDay was faked. As such, we've moved him to the back of our previously 4-man (now 3) lynch pool. And with the reads reversed on Gova and Werekill, I'm taking a look at Gheb's shouting concerning the fact that he would have to have bussed both scummates. Then only problem is that we won't GET all 3.

do you think any other part of werekills play around that time was not faked

also, if you believe his outburst against me is faked, why would i still be in the lynch pool

feel free to respond to my other post earlier today as well

 

[Dramatic Flair]

I'm actually ok with going that route at least for now, EXCEPT AI should be in place of Levi if Kantrip flips Town; Kantrip said himself that Levi's alignment was mod-confirmed to him unless there's some ******* modding going on.

Really?

vote: #HBC | BarDeeZy

 

[Gova]

ebwop: specifically i mean his interaction with bardull and leviathan

 

[BarDulL]

Really?

vote: #HBC | BarDeeZy

I know you're worried about keeping yourself alive, which is why you're now going to try to cater to Gheb to oust me in response to me thinking that I think you're poopoo and should go, but you're not going to live through this game either way in my honest opinion. You've been too wrong this entire game, and my flip would only secure that notion. I think you're just trying to manipulate slots and are changing your direction a lot to suit your own survival.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

I'm actually ok with going that route at least for now, EXCEPT AI should be in place of Levi if Kantrip flips Town; Kantrip said himself that Levi's alignment was mod-confirmed to him unless there's some ******* modding going on.

I'd be willing to consider AI if it got to that point. Levi is not mod-confirmed however. Mail Carrier our whatever it's called can send whatever they like to their target, including:

Spoiler

#HBC | Leviathan, Town Neighborizor, has confirmed himself to you. This information is Mod confirmed.

Hell he could even create an entire town role pm and send it to Kantrip as if it was the mod revealing his role pm.

There's still a chance of Levi indy. He's no where near a priority for me, but you shouldn't count it out.

Then will you two please stop hydra'ing together? You've been on horse**** theories the ENTIRETY of the game, and you two feed each other on it, from everything I can tell. I'm not just talking about your traitor theory either, although that was absurd.

Kantrip and ourselves should be nowhere near the lynch pool in this game. Even if you DIDN'T catch the Doc claim on D2, Jexs shouldn't have been on your radar. And Day 1 you had no business pushing Protean based on an imaginary Jexs scumflip. Half the time you're trying to play two steps into the future and it leaves you with no idea where to put your feet.

I'm not even familiar with most of these theories. And the one's that I am, I've told Ran are silly and not likely.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

can someone please show me where people (specifically murderbush) knew jexs was the doc before night 2

because the most likely area anyone would have figured it out was when kantrip dropped the wifom bomb and the only people around for that were ami, himself, dabuz, and jexs, and bardull i think

also personally i still think mb is scum; having the werekill scum flip makes me question his lynching priorities as he said there HAS to be a scum between me and werekill yet still would not lynch us back-to-back

leviathan even brought that up and im not sure if he responded; because he had had the next post after that and it still didn't answer (to me at least) why he wouldn't lynch us one after the other

perhaps he could go into more detail cause im not really satisfied with the explanation (if that was supposed to be it)

I (Raz) was there. I caught it the first time around. But why would I say anything that exposes the doc in immediate twilight after Kantrip was clearly trying to draw an NK?

Finally, to answer your question on why we didn't want to lynch you AND Werekill back to back despite saying it contained at least 1 scum:

That is because we had a stronger scum read on you, and the team that was apparent in our minds was AI/Gova, due to how the two of you expressed interest in setting up a Leviathan/Murderbush double lynch. We had Town leans on Bardull and Werekill at the time, based mainly on their interactions with the J and Dabuz lynches. Namely, Werekill backing off of the J lynch, where you did not, and Bardull's quick-hammer on Dabuz. It didn't matter where we picked up the scum in Werekill+Gova, because the lynch pool was unaffected either way. The only reasons it looks different now are Werekill's explosion and Bardull's play this phase.

To be honest, even past PoE, that's the primary reason you're still in our lynch pool at all. We can't understand why you would have a scumread on not one, but BOTH of the Leviathan/Murderbush slots, given the interactions between the two. If you think Day 2 could honestly be faked as scum/scum, then you're insane.

 

[BarDulL]

I'd be willing to consider AI if it got to that point. Levi is not mod-confirmed however. Mail Carrier our whatever it's called can send whatever they like to their target, including:

Spoiler

#HBC | Leviathan, Town Neighborizor, has confirmed himself to you. This information is Mod confirmed.

Hell he could even create an entire town role pm and send it to Kantrip as if it was the mod revealing his role pm.

There's still a chance of Levi indy. He's no where near a priority for me, but you shouldn't count it out.


I'm not even familiar with most of these theories. And the one's that I am, I've told Ran are silly and not likely.

@ Kantrip have you confirmed with the mod that the message you received can be confirmed by the mod as factual?

 

[BarDulL]

@ Gova do you still think Levi and MB are scum? o.O

 

[Dramatic Flair]

Wow, Raz rage quit the thread.

 

[Kantrip]

@ Kantrip have you confirmed with the mod that the message you received can be confirmed by the mod as factual?

The letter was prefaced by a statement along the lines of 'this letter is mod-confirmed'

And looking at Werekill and Levi's interaction there is no doubt in my mind that they can't be scum together

 

[Kantrip]

To be clear: the mod's PM started off with a sentence saying that I received the following mod-confirmed letter

It was a pre-written letter in a fancy font from Levi's character talking about how he is town-aligned and some flavoury stuff

 

[BarDulL]

Please ask Rockin if he can confirm the message as factual just for the sake of not having to worry about Levi at all.

 

[#HBC | Leviathan]

@ #HBC | Leviathan sorry for claiming you to be one of the best players d1. You're really not good at all.

Please, stop. You are hurting my feelings.

 

[#HBC | Leviathan]

We believe it wins the game. We've been saying as much since last phase. However, I think I would put Arcane Inferno before Bardull as a result of the Bardull quick-hammer on Dabuz. It still bothers me because I feel scum would wait for a cop CC instead of quick-hammering a partner, although it could all be a gambit. Regardless, if not one, then the other.

We don't think Werekill's outburst against Gova yesterDay was faked. As such, we've moved him to the back of our previously 4-man (now 3) lynch pool. And with the reads reversed on Gova and Werekill, I'm taking a look at Gheb's shouting concerning the fact that he would have to have bussed both scummates. Then only problem is that we won't GET all 3.

@ #HBC | Amidamaru : You need to listen to us for a second. We are getting Bardull or Gheb toDay, almost certainly. We have Leviathan, ourselves, I believe we have Kantrip, and I doubt Gheb or Bardull will pass on the opportunity to oust the other.

Assuming the game does not end there, Leviathan will probably be shot, as he just cleared himself. At that point, there will be 5 players left and you will HAVE the traction for a Murderbush lynch. Gheb or Bardull will vote, as they would be the other option. Gova will vote because he has a stick up his ***. You will vote because you're paranoid.

I won't give it to you for free, but you'll probably end up with it, if you want it.

At that point, you have blown our chances to secure victory, because we cannot lynch both Gova and Gheb/Bardull at that point. You will likely find yourself in a LyLo with the two of them, with Potassium dead. (Or vice-versa, where Potassium is alive, and you get shot). HOWEVER, in the event that Potassium AND yourself are left alive with the remaining player between Gheb/Bardull and Gova, PROMISE me that you will not lynch Potassium after both Leviathan and I have died and flipped Town.

If you lynch Potassium in that scenario, you have gone completely rogue and thrown the game by lynching outside the Town's agreed upon lynch pool TWICE. (Once on us, once on Potassium.)

This is what is going to happen should we mislynch toDay.

I will get nightkilled Tonight.

This leaves Murderbush, Amidamaru, Potassium, 1 of [Arcane/BarDulL], and Gova. Gova, that 1 living slot, and Amidamaru will mislynch you putting us in LYLO with Gova, the 1 slot, and Potassium.

BarDulL has been setting up to flop his town read on you for quite a while now, and Amidamaru will tunnel you as will Gova tomorrow.

The worst part about this is that there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop it should we mislynch. I keep trying to think of solutions, but that requires cooperation which obviously will not happen at this point.

 

[#HBC | Leviathan]

@#HBC | Zen

Why did Murderbushscum not use Protean's tunneling of you D1 to secure your mislynch?

 

[Gova]

I (Raz) was there. I caught it the first time around. But why would I say anything that exposes the doc in immediate twilight after Kantrip was clearly trying to draw an NK?

Finally, to answer your question on why we didn't want to lynch you AND Werekill back to back despite saying it contained at least 1 scum:

That is because we had a stronger scum read on you, and the team that was apparent in our minds was AI/Gova, due to how the two of you expressed interest in setting up a Leviathan/Murderbush double lynch. We had Town leans on Bardull and Werekill at the time, based mainly on their interactions with the J and Dabuz lynches. Namely, Werekill backing off of the J lynch, where you did not, and Bardull's quick-hammer on Dabuz. It didn't matter where we picked up the scum in Werekill+Gova, because the lynch pool was unaffected either way. The only reasons it looks different now are Werekill's explosion and Bardull's play this phase.

To be honest, even past PoE, that's the primary reason you're still in our lynch pool at all. We can't understand why you would have a scumread on not one, but BOTH of the Leviathan/Murderbush slots, given the interactions between the two. If you think Day 2 could honestly be faked as scum/scum, then you're insane.

i dont see how you can say one of me and werekill is scum but then not lynch back to back regardless of who you think the scum team is; and it DOES matter because by your logic you risk throwing by potentially double mislynching for game which is what you accused me of doing;

also, since when am i scum for not backing off the J lynch? this is new to me; can you please elaborate; my vote was on leviathan at the end of the day.

im pretty sure ive been an advocate of one of you being scum; i dont think i ever said i scum read both of you as SvS; so if thats your reason for me still

please answer whether or not you think werekills other interactions around the end of the day phase were faked or not; ie about zen correctly nailing him; him saying leviathan is not on the scum team, and his interaction with bardull

 

[Gova]

ebwop ..still being in the lynch pool; you should go back and re-read