Mafia Barhouse Sleepover: "Hey Town, drinks are on me!"

[Ronike]

More please jungle.

 

[Tom]

~Steel is going to be gone for an entire week~

 

[Rockin]

Summoner has been prodded

 

[Rockin]

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Nix (1) Ronike

Junglefever (2 ) Mentos, Gheb

Not Voting: Frozenflame, Steel, Tom, Summoner, Jungle, Nix

---------------

Deadline is June 22nd 2007

NOTE: Junglefever WILL be V/LA from June 17th to the 24th

 

[Tom]

Junglefever and Steel, the two fairly-inactive potential lynches, are going out of town for a week each.

Forgive me if I put this game on the back-burner to concentrate on games where people care.

vote: junglfever

imo the two of them should role-claim and we should lynch one of them.

 

[mentosman8]

So, two of the biggest potential lynch candidates are both going to be gone. For a week. I think I agree with pretty much everything Tom just said.

 

[Tom]

i dont feel bad about lynching either one of them. they are basically going to be on our minds the whole game if we dont lynch them now.



and they haven't done much of anything during the game either.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Steel I don't quite get what you're saying. To me, it doesn't seem that Mentos is pushing anything, just pointing out an oddity in a nameclaim that should be remembered for future reference.

My stances that i posted pre-claim still havent changed.

This is a poor contribution. Neither "Paragraph" adds anything to the discussion except some weak connections with mentos and steel (which are useless right now and most likely later too). I don't even know what your stances "pre-claim" were - are you talking about the post where you listed your 3 desired claims? If so, I think there are some question you didn't even respond to.

 

[SummonerAU]

Sorry for being dead. Had no internet access. Will be reading tonight in the next 3 hours sometime.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Seems like Tom's not the only one who put this game on the back-burner -.-

Non-voters should get voting imo...

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I'm a non voter and I agree I should get voting.

Gonna go over Steel and JF one more time and take a pick.

 

[Nix2100]

In a effort to keep the game moving I suppose......

Vote: Junglefever

 

[SummonerAU]

I'd be happy with Mentos, Jungle and Steel.

in that order

Vote: Mentos

 

[Tom]

Why Mentos over Steel or Jungle?

 

[Tom]

btw i think jungle is L-1

 

[Rockin]

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Nix (1) Ronike

Junglefever (4) Mentos, Gheb, Tom, Nix

Mentos (1) Summoner

Not Voting: Frozenflame, Steel, Jungle,

---------------

Deadline is June 22nd 2007

 

[mentosman8]

So, you would rather lynch someone who is for the most part active, and has at least contributed and made an effort over two people who are notroiously inactive most of the game and have contributed next to nothing most of the time Summoner? I'm curious what your reasoning for that is so I, ya know, at least have something to defend against. Really you putting me ahead of those two doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since this is probably one of our last chances to get rid of notorious lurkers without it destroying us, and I would bet at least one of the two is mafia.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Just re-read all of Jungles posts. I REALLY do not think he is the play today. In fact I now am getting a town read on him.

Going over Steel now. Will post when I'm done.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Frozen, if it was neither Jungle nor Steel, who's the play?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Looking over Steel again didn't give me a scum read either. This game is ****ing brutally hard. >_<

I really don't think either of them should be the play today.

After going over everything Steel said I decided that re-reading all of Meno/Riddle's posts would help a lot. So's that kind of what I've been trying to dissect. Here's some stuff that I want to start talking about since I don't think we're at a point where we can make a well thought out play. We don't have much time but this will hopefully spark some discussion.

Uhh, confirm?

Vote: Mentosman

I know it's from RVS but mentos what's you're take on this knowing now that Meno was scum?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10379373#post10379373

This is a HUGELY important post in the game and needs some MAJOR dissecting. How it hasn't been like a major point of consideration so today really surprises me. Some notable stuff I got from it:

10. Gheb_01 - Scum vibes for sure. I can't really put my finger on why. Definitely looking closer at him as I read on.

VERY strong stance to take having just come in to the game. I need to go over Gheb some more before I can figure this out. It seems like the accusation came out of no where and obviously was accompanied by little to no reasoning. Furthermore, he never really goes on to better explain this or pursue Gheb as a lynch target. Strange much? This just reeks of knee-jerk distancing.

5. Nix2100 - Getting a town read. Good questions and seemed to contribute pretty well.

Just going off the whole Gheb thing, wanted to point out that his initial stance on Nix matches Gheb's read (and technically mine as well).

11. Steel - I like his contributions and dont see any reason to suspect him yet.

and

14. KevinM - Playing standard Kev, No real reason to suspect him.

Very similar language and we have Kev confirmed as town. Just something I noticed, still dissecting it. Not sure if he was trying to like, passively defend Steel here or something.

Anyway overarching point is that this post needs to be gone over by everyone like ASAP. Dig deep folks.

Other Riddle posts that I think are pertinent and require further scrutiny:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10406832&postcount=449

This just seems like ridiculously artificial. Does this affect what anyone thinks about how likely it was that there were scum and if so, multiple scum, on the chibo wagon?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10391335&postcount=348

Passive-aggressive callout of mentos here, without any particular direction. What I'm trying to say but am probably failing at because its so **** late/early is that his choice of comparison (mentos) had to be motivated somehow but not in a manner directly insinuated by the aggressor who provoked this defense from Riddle. Why would Riddle choose to single out mentos? Is he distancing mentos or trying to redirect attention to him?

He also votes Steel here which is stange considering he seems to want to give Steel the benefit of the doubt here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10383469&postcount=317

Which quickly dissipates in favor of "Gheb's reasoning". I just didn't see enough exchange going on between Riddle and Steel to make that sudden swap feel like a bus. Seems more like just jumpy/wagonning scum which makes me feel more like Steel is town.

Riddle also contradicts his stance on Nix from his original post in the previous link (317). Points in Nix's favor there.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10384482&postcount=325
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10384691&postcount=327

Just some more Nix and Riddle exchange for reference.

Sorry this post is such a mess. >_<

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10394444&postcount=357

Gheb can you explain your FOS here?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Frozen, if it was neither Jungle nor Steel, who's the play?

Honestly after reading through all of Steel, Jungle, and Riddle/Meno, my gut is screaming that you're scum but I haven't had a chance to go over all of your posts and I'm way to tired to do that effectively.

When you get a chance explain that FOS on riddle in the post I linked. I'll read it when I wake up if its up and that'll kickstart me.

But yeah full Gheb re-evaluation is next on my list.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How am I less helpful than say, mentos? I say we lynch someone who has actually been scummy. At the risk of seeming like a wagoner i think steel seems to be the best target and with two days left we should move quickly if we want to get a lynch.

vote steel
For the reasons already provided by gheb

That's the post I fosed him for, frozen. It was his last post before the FoS IIRC and I still think it was actually worth that FoS. Do you not find it strange that he doesn't want to look like a bandwagoner but in fact is doing just that? And he admits to blatantly sheep a person whom he apparently had a scum read on earlier? That alone is a pretty huge contradiction - and not just the kind of inconsistency of a townie but simply an opportunistic switch in stance.

ESPECIALLY since he also pushes for the finalization of a lynch due to time constraints. That's exactly the kind of nudge I would see scum making in that situation.

I find it hard to believe that you have more issues with my fos than with Riddle's post itself.

 

[Ronike]

Riddles dead gheb, being suspicious of his posts is kinda redundant, doncha think? But nice attempt to shift blame.

I also don't like mentos' post replying to nix about his suspicions. He is legitmately scummy, only moreso after cursory glance at riddles posts reveals he tried to pass Mentos off as "useless", but he tries to stay the course with the inactives. Iunno, it just rubs me wrong.

I feel much more comfortable with gheb or Mentos than I do steel or jungle. As much as I'm pissed that they haven't been playing, I just don't feel comfortable with lynching either without their input. But seriously, stop playing **** you guys and get replaced.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Would it have been better to just ignore Frozen's question then?

 

[Tom]

I'd still rather lynch Steel or Junglefever. Don't mean to be harsh, but they're worthless, and have been all game, not just now when they are V/LA.

 

[Nix2100]

Unvote

To prevent a quick-lynch =P going to go over the recent posts now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Riddles dead gheb, being suspicious of his posts is kinda redundant, doncha think? But nice attempt to shift blame.

Seriously Ronike, what were you thinking when you posted this? Frozen directly asked me to restate the reasons for that FoS and now that I do so you accuse me of shifting the blame? What should I have done?

 

[Ronike]

That was directed at the last part of your post the "I don't understand why you have more problems with my fos than riddles post" and it was posted immediately upon waking up, probably not the wisest time to post.

Tom I agree with you completely that they are worthless, but I think that we have enough info to go after someone because they are scummy, not worthless.

I still think Mentos is a pretty good play, if I can I'll try to go back and look through his posts, but no promises.

 

[Tom]

I don't see how Mentos is a good play at all. I really don't see that. Inactivity on Day 1 is the worst thing he has against him. I already called out Summoner on the awful vote with no reasoning on him, and he is yet to respond to that. He said he would post, and he hasn't. People who are saying they would rather lynch Mentos than Jungle&Steel (Ronike, Summoner) confuse me. I find more merit in Frozenflame's points against Gheb than a case on Mentosman, and Gheb has done nothing really wrong all game, he just got talked weirdly by Riddle.

A replacement for either Steel or Jungle would result in about four days worth of catch-up reading, and by then, the two would be back. They just need to go, both of them. I would literally shoot them both right now if I could. Steel was almost lynched Day 1, and has not done anything since. Junglefever has not contributed ****.

 

[Tom]

Frozen, if Jungle isn't the play today, do you think he is going to do anything at all in a lylo situation? Would you actually feel confident with him in lylo? I'd gravitate right towards him.

In my opinion, they both just need to be eliminated for this game to continue.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I agree with you guys that Steel and Jungle have both been quite lacking this game and wouldn't be ideal to have in a lylo situation. It's just that upon re-reading them I just didn't get scum reads at all which makes me not want to lynch them right now. It's like the whole debate we had earlier with OS about lynching people simply because of inactivity or whatever even if you believe them to be town.

My thought process is that I'd rather lynch some one I actually think is scummy so I can confirm/deny my suspicions and figure out what I'm misreading or reading correctly. I see Steel and Jungle as being activity problems that can be solved by a vig or other killing role. However, I recognize that that may be wishful thinking considering we have Ronike telling us the mafia took out the SK for us and there isn't any evidence of a vig even being in the game. =/

With 9 people alive, if we assume the game was actually 10 v 3 v 1 as was speculated early on, then that puts us at 7 v 2 atm, which gives us two more mislynches before lylo. So assuming Jungle and Steel are both town, if we wanted to have them out by lylo guranteed we'd be blowing our two mislynches right there which hardly seems like an ideal strat.

I wouldn't be particularly comfortable with either Steel or Jungle in lylo but I don't think I would "gravitate" toward them at all just because they've been less than substantial in this game. They'd be scrutinized just like everyone else still alive, but they wouldn't be like on the top of my scum list just for lacking activity.

@ Gheb thanks for explaining. Since we know the Riddle was scum obvious it seems like your justifications for placing the FoS seem redundant but yeah I understand that was the whole point of my question. I think Ronike didn't really understand what I was looking for.

Off to work soon but like I said I'm going over Gheb tonight.

If lynching either Jungle or Steel is an absolute must by general consensus then I'd honestly be more comfortable with a Steel lynch.

 

[mentosman8]

Frozen, I have literally no idea what you want me to respond to in that question you posted for me. You quote a random vote and ask for my take on it? It was in the RVS, and wasn't part of a bandwagon, it's not like he was going for a quicklynch chance because he knows me well enough to know that won't happen, if I was scum it wouldn't even hold up as distancing. There's absolutely no benefit no matter what alignment I was for Meno to random vote me, so I would say it was pretty much just that: random. I'm not sure if this is what you wanted whatsoever because I don't really see any point to that question.

I'd also like to add your stance on Jungle/steel is interesting, if only because I've seen you specifically say before that people shouldn't be allowed to lurk all game, and if they've done it a lot by late game they should be removed, and now you're saying that you don't want to get rid of either of them. Not to say that makes you insta-scum, and I'm still wanting a Jungle/Steel lynch, but really, your stance right now goes against one that I've seen you explicitly state in the past. I may have misunderstood you back then, so I'd just like this clarified a bit.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Frozen, I have literally no idea what you want me to respond to in that question you posted for me. You quote a random vote and ask for my take on it? It was in the RVS, and wasn't part of a bandwagon, it's not like he was going for a quicklynch chance because he knows me well enough to know that won't happen, if I was scum it wouldn't even hold up as distancing. There's absolutely no benefit no matter what alignment I was for Meno to random vote me, so I would say it was pretty much just that: random. I'm not sure if this is what you wanted whatsoever because I don't really see any point to that question.

I'd also like to add your stance on Jungle/steel is interesting, if only because I've seen you specifically say before that people shouldn't be allowed to lurk all game, and if they've done it a lot by late game they should be removed, and now you're saying that you don't want to get rid of either of them. Not to say that makes you insta-scum, and I'm still wanting a Jungle/Steel lynch, but really, your stance right now goes against one that I've seen you explicitly state in the past. I may have misunderstood you back then, so I'd just like this clarified a bit.

What do you mean by the bolded?

Also, as I said I recognize it was from RVS, but I was curious as to what you thought Meno's motivation was for voting you first in RVS. You're simply chalking it up to being a random choice then? You don't think he had ANY reason at all for picking you to "randomly" vote?

RVS may be filled with a lot of unsubstantiated, seemingly random votes but just because it's RVS doesn't necessarily mean and definitely does not guarantee that all votes within it are random.

Is that really all you think that vote was? Just a purely random choice? And why do you think voting a scum buddy in RVS couldn't hold up as distancing?

Also, about lurkers, yes I have said they shouldn't live till late game. This isn't late game, more like mid game. As I have said, it would not be ideal to have either of them in lylo. I still stand by the principal that you're talking about. However, I have also explained that I would rather not lynch someone I have a town read on because obvious lynching people you think are town is an assbackwards approach to the game lol.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But anyway, I finished re-reading all of Gheb's content and perhaps the most important general connection he has throughout the whole game is pushing for Steel to be lynched. He even retains that focus when Steel wasn't really anywhere near the spot light. Unless Gheb has been doing some serious hardcore distancing to the point where he doesn't care if he completely redirects attention to his scumbuddies who are coasting along just fine, I have a hard time seeing them as being scum together.

The fact that in the very post I asked Gheb to talk about, Riddle goes on and votes for Steel and calls him scummy gives me a lot to work with if I get Steel's flip.

I went over Steel again and I think he's the scummier of him and Jungle, even though I don't really have scummy reads on either of them. I can really learn a lot from a Steel flip though I believe, and there's the added bonus of cutting some of the inactive fat if he goes.

Vote: Steel

 

[mentosman8]

FF, that means just what it sounds like. Looking at that vote from my perspective, the only way he could have had a reason is if he was trying to get me quicklynched, which he knows I wouldn't let happen. That makes me quite certain it was a random vote.

And no, I don't think the RVS can stand up as distancing. Why? Because to take credit for it you make yourself look massively suspicious. There are a few reasons that can be used to pick at vote in the RVS, but distancing, IMO, doesn't hold up because the second you point to that it's pretty clear you're trying to take credit for something that, as a townie, has no merit, which makes you suspicious. Overall, it doesn't hold up because you can never use it to make yourself look better, because if you were a townie you wouldn't have any info at the time of the vote to make it reasonable to take credit.

 

[Nix2100]

Vote: Jungle

yea, after going through the posts and such i still feel ok about the Jungle lynch, more so over a Steel one.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So Jungle is back at -1 with deadline in 3 days. Unless Summoner shows up with some amazing post I don't see a lot more we can get out of this day.

 

[Rockin]

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Nix (1) Ronike

Junglefever (4) Mentos, Gheb, Tom, Nix

Mentos (1) Summoner

Steel (1) Frozenflame

Not Voting: Steel, Jungle,

---------------

Deadline is June 22nd 2010

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Is there really no chance at all of getting people to go with Steel over Jungle? I really think we'll have a lot more to work with with a Steel lynch.

If people absolutely won't budge I'll hammer jungle before the deadline but like, I really think Steel is a better play here.

 

[mentosman8]

I may consider it, but with Jungle's play being nigh-exactly the way he played in DBZ as scum, and the fact that of the two he is even more inactive, I would prefer to take Jungle out because I think he's more likely scum of the 2, and if wrong he seems like he'll be the less useful in a lylo situation.

 

[Ronike]

unvote vote steel

jungle was legitimately inactive in dbz and is here too. No scum tells to read there, so I'm with frozen if we really are so deadset on lynching inactives
rather than scum people.