Mafia and Werewolves Gamethread

[Detective Mao]

I'm more or less multitasking, but I got around to ISOing Nerbins and they haven't done anything that would make me opposed to putting them in PoE. So far the only things they've done has been hunting the WW and following whoever is the consensus could-be partner for Eido. #1 600 reads incredibly defensive, they can stay at the bottom of my readlist.

FrozenFlame's latest appearances have been him being petty and rude, and then they disappeared. Real life things are totally fine, looking forward to the content when they come back. I think there actually hasn't been anything wrong with their takes before this, the most notable thing is that they defended Shurian's slot which would make them look a bit better. They did cast some shade on Wiisp during SoD... but well, I was also hesitant at the time - and partly waiting for a CC to come - so I can't really blame them. I want to hear more from them before deciding whether or not they should get out of the consensus PoE.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Vote sticks here, ISO'ing Gorf though

 

[Detective Mao]

Uto! So you were the person I was missing!

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

FF being rude isn't super alignment indicative, moreso the alignments of those who he was being rude to

 

[Detective Mao]

Looking forward to that. I'll be waiting.

 

[Detective Mao]

(This was in response to #1 802)

I understand that. That doesn't make me not dislike it, though.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Oh god there's so many posts, hopefully yall'll forgive me for not quoting everything

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

poyzin, mao, what are your opinions about prioritizing lynching ww toDay to avoid 2 nk’s toNight?

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

I'm good with that from the standpoint that we'll then have only one team to deal with. Tbh that was basically my mindset for a while but I do want to talk about the pros and cons. The pros are pretty obvious; we only have to deal with 1 NK a night, therefore cutting the number of town we lose in half. Problem is at that point we go into tomorrow with 6 town and 3 unified mafia who know who each other are. In addition to that, if we hit a mafia here, while there will still be 2 kills, the remaining mafia would be divided and it will take longer for them to reach majority, i.e. it's two teams of two, they have to narrow the game down substantially. So it's basically picking your poison; do you want to keep more town around and go against a more solid team, or make the game difficult for two one-person teams +traitor, while losing more town in the process.

 

[Detective Mao]

We should always be hunting the WW here. Adding to the points Utopian stated, it should actually make scumhunting for town easier as well; we'll be going against a single team instead of different factions, which will make it easier to pinpoint them. Even with Traitor around, they will know who the other team is, and there would be no 'safe' bussing strategy available for them anymore as they would be forced to stick with the Mafia faction.

Then again, the WW is only one person now, so it's more likely that the Traitor would choose the Mafia faction anyway. Still, point stands.

 

[Detective Mao]

I'll probably take a shower and talk more about the 3p when I come back. From what I read, it seems like everyone got caught up on the 'joke' readlist and consequently decided that it could only be Swiss, though I didn't pay too much attention to that discussion. I'll analyze it for myself etc etc.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

i might be biased but i think the more compelling case for 3p is that wiisp received a “no result” result on his nerbins cop. im thinking nerbins probably commuted: the competing explanation is that maf roleblocked him in some way. my argument is that since he received no result, his action didnt fail. mod refuses to clarify w wiisp. i think, with commuter being a public role, that the argument for traitor!nerbins is quite a bit stronger than operating under the pretense that mafia mightve rb’d wiisp. however, i believe lynching traitor isnt productive toDay, so im not that interested going down that route.

 

[Rhand]

I had a bad RL day today, ’ll see if I can catch up, might be only tomorrow that I manage.

 

[Nerbins]

You didn't answer it.

Never said you didn't answer it.

Bro.

Want to elaborate on this?

At one point it seemed like he was hinting at trying to set a trap for me by hoping I'd claim a PR, which even I, someone who hadn't read the majority of the thread by the time it happened, could've seen coming. It's very unlikely they actually thought I was the last PR. This is one of the only things I can really remember from them barring Eido interactions and it seemed like a light attempt to seem town

Also Poyzin quick question who'd you think is traitor?
Also hope your day gets better, Rhand

 

[Rhand]

i might be biased but i think the more compelling case for 3p is that wiisp received a “no result” result on his nerbins cop. im thinking nerbins probably commuted: the competing explanation is that maf roleblocked him in some way. my argument is that since he received no result, his action didnt fail. mod refuses to clarify w wiisp. i think, with commuter being a public role, that the argument for traitor!nerbins is quite a bit stronger than operating under the pretense that mafia mightve rb’d wiisp. however, i believe lynching traitor isnt productive toDay, so im not that interested going down that route.

This game though... it’s already stacked against town and then we don’t even learn the difference between roleblock and commute.

 

[Nerbins]

however, i believe lynching traitor isnt productive toDay, so im not that interested going down that route.

Out of curiosity in what circumstance from now onward would be a good one for executing traitor?

 

[Nerbins]

I messed up while quoting, phooey

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

This game though... it’s already stacked against town and then we don’t even learn the difference between roleblock and commute.

yea i know right. thats why id rather roll with this logic and blame the mod if we lose than let the wifom machine let me possibly be swayed from following through on a correct scumread.

Nerbins i dont really know. definitely not toDay tho

 

[Detective Mao]

I'm back!

i might be biased but i think the more compelling case for 3p is that wiisp received a “no result” result on his nerbins cop. im thinking nerbins probably commuted: the competing explanation is that maf roleblocked him in some way. my argument is that since he received no result, his action didnt fail. mod refuses to clarify w wiisp. i think, with commuter being a public role, that the argument for traitor!nerbins is quite a bit stronger than operating under the pretense that mafia mightve rb’d wiisp. however, i believe lynching traitor isnt productive toDay, so im not that interested going down that route.

Oh, right, I see. I'll take a look at both of those cases then.

At one point it seemed like he was hinting at trying to set a trap for me by hoping I'd claim a PR, which even I, someone who hadn't read the majority of the thread by the time it happened, could've seen coming. It's very unlikely they actually thought I was the last PR. This is one of the only things I can really remember from them barring Eido interactions and it seemed like a light attempt to seem town

Why would they want you to claim PR, as scum, if they didn't think you were one? My immediate thought was that they could be closing the door on a possible fake claim in the future - you are in the PoE, after all.

 

[Wiisp]

Speaking of that, Gorf already called that interaction with Eido NAI, and now Swiss has a weird interaction with Nerbins

 

[Detective Mao]

Nerbins Rephrasing the question a little better: could you elaborate on why you think this specifically comes from scum perspective?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

eido iso notes

Spoiler

Spoiler: early game, pg 1-4

ww lean:

nonww lean:
rhand+
swiss++

fairly unremarkable overall, but his interactions with swiss/rhand early exchange read as trying to sort out early. willingness to comment on it at that phase instead of just not being in thread reads as not being mates with either, swiss more + because of how much he tried interacting w him directly

Spoiler: after scarlet came in swinging on chaco, pg 5-6

ww lean:

nonww lean:
wiisp+
chaco+
rhand+
gellnick+
swiss++

defending wiisps play in the face of swiss’ scumread.

very strangely placed gellnick vote. guy had two votes, VERY lhf at this point. i do not believe he sticks a vote on his scummate like that at this time

interacting w chaco about his read on me in pg 5 doesnt seem like itd make sense for him to do w chaco in thread if theyre mates. thats why you have scumchat. and again, i believe him trying to get a read on my slot, and trying to have chaco help him to do that. and if they were mates, theyd do it in scumchat.

Spoiler: first readslist, pg 8

ww lean:

nonww lean:
wiisp++
chaco++
rhand++
gellnick++
swiss+++

I'll come online later tonight but my head is here:

Swiss(++) / Wiisp(+) / Scarlet / Mao / Gorf
Frozen / Rhand(+) / Wam / Chaco(+) / ExLight
3DSNinja / Gellnick(++) / Whysper

Not ordered. Comfortable with the top row.
Middle row feels ambiguous. I'm thinking about this row.
Bottom row straight up inactive. Gellnick still stands out to me here.

@Mod: we able to get a votecount?

My take is both Mafia teams are not in great positions to hard-defend other players. This is because the defended player could be another side of scum. So to me this incentivises Mafia to scumhunt more than defend. I'm looking at hard-defenses then as a possible Townie reaction because of this.

first impressions: taking a strong side on town!swiss, expressed a side on rhand and chaco.
mao “comfortable,” but he never really mentioned her before this. had been tone!town read by many people in thread already. kind of an easy read.
frozen + exlight ambiguous. at this point, id say they were a step up activity wise from 3dsninja and whysper. ff had some content but it was a post. exlight, the opposite.

looks slightly better for frozen and exlight than it does for mao here, but i dont feel strongly on any of them looking like ww partner yet.

Spoiler: mid D1, pg 9-15

pg 9
broadens up w light interactions w exlight and frozen, and mentions of whysper outside first “random voting” after rvs.
does eido really flat out ignore mao!ww and put her in the same pool as swiss and wiisp? i can see him not thinking about needing to make connections w his partner at this point
whysper is essentially absent yet hes making moves to solve her/reacting to those who have her low on lists in thread.

pg 12
basically “srry havent been around.” he gives a short stance in defense of ff and expresses contempt for gellnick, who he had voted for before. +ff

pg 13
positioned too strongly against rhand and gellnick for them to be mates with him

pg 15

Wam / Exlight / Scarlet / Rhand / Gellnick / Chaco
3DSNinja (Osie) / Whysper

this is his pool, with osie and whysper on bottom for activity.

throws exlight in here but doesnt comment on it. similar to how he has mao as a townread, except with mao its radio silence. speaks about scarlet, chaco, rhand and gellnick. by association and interactions, he threw exlight in a pool of a bunch of people who are probably not ww. also fairly low hanging fruit, mao swiss and i all had recently expressed scumreads on him +exlight.

Spoiler: post cop claim, pg 18-25

ww lean:

nonww lean:
ff+
whysper+
chaco+++
wiisp+++
rhand+++
gellnick+++
swiss+++

pg 20
doesnt think wiisp is lying about the claim. lines up with his thoughts. id be shocked if theyre mates at this point.

pg 21

unvote
vote: Whysper

Chaco/Gellnick/Whysper for me.

chaco/gellnick have been fairly consistent reads, and he groups whysper in now since her having posted. +whysper, +chaco.
exlights grouping in “players to watch out for” gone after sides are being taken in his favor/lessening of outward support against him. -exlight
STILL no mention of mao

pg 25
clarifies error on what roles do: says maf are incentivized to kill him, ww to defend him. i wonder if that means that his scummate is not exactly doing this (like mao and ff, challenging wiisp’s cop claim)

Spoiler: eod approaching, pg 26-31

ww lean:

nonww lean:
exlight+
ff++
whysper++
chaco+++
wiisp+++
rhand+++
gellnick+++
swiss+++

pg 26
talking to osie looking for further detail on frozen read. continuing to try to solve ff. +ff.

pg 27

Currently I would vote Chaco (UP) / Gellnick / Whysper / Wam / Rhand.

Unvote
Vote: Utopian

whysper placement here makes me think +whysper. another case of lhf along with gellnick.
expounds on leaning town on exlight, looks to interact with me (a townread of his and i was townreading him) about my strong stance against exlight. reads like someone interested in the argument. +exlight

Spoiler: eod readslist, pg 31

ww lean:
osie -
mao—

nonww lean:
exlight++
ff++
whysper++
chaco+++
wiisp+++
rhand+++
gellnick+++
swiss+++

ExLight / Swiss / Gorf / Wiisp - Comfortable. Could be a Power Wolf here.
Scarlet / Mao / Osie / Frozen - Not sure, need more. Scum could fake it here.
Wam / Rhand / Gellnick / Whysper / Chaco - Not a fan. Would vote here toDay.

first impressions: mao is suddenly null now. clearly doesnt wanna call himself comfortable w her cuz he hasnt said anything about her at all. hes said more to osie than her. -mao
him placing exlight in the same comfort tier as swiss and i when we are both scumreading him is a big deal. i dont think he backs his mate like that in the face of us scumreading him. +exlight

w mao and osie i can say he took no steps to try solving them at any point in the game. his posts were very focused on solving, and he didnt do that at all with them. w osie i can see it cuz he just got her, w mao its an outlier in his play. -mao -osie

short conclusion: eido looked like he was trying to solve the game. mao and osie are the only people he didnt seem to have any expressed interest in solving at all. osie is reasonable, mao is not. there is zero interaction there. this is eidos second game, i can absolutely buy the idea that eido didnt take into account that he needed to put distance between him and his buddy.

the only possible mates imo are ff, exlight, mao and osie. ff and exlight are doubtful, and osie is there from lack of presence until eod.

i think mao is ww

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Also is there a way to receive notifications or something from this forum
I've missed gellnick and osie almost entirely >_>

And I'm passing midnight now, gotta sleep
Send help

you can “watch” the thread and get a notification of the first reply since you last refreshed the page. Should be an option to do that on the top of the page

 

[Detective Mao]

eido iso notes

Spoiler

Spoiler: early game, pg 1-4

ww lean:

nonww lean:
rhand+
swiss++

fairly unremarkable overall, but his interactions with swiss/rhand early exchange read as trying to sort out early. willingness to comment on it at that phase instead of just not being in thread reads as not being mates with either, swiss more + because of how much he tried interacting w him directly

Spoiler: after scarlet came in swinging on chaco, pg 5-6

ww lean:

nonww lean:
wiisp+
chaco+
rhand+
gellnick+
swiss++

defending wiisps play in the face of swiss’ scumread.

very strangely placed gellnick vote. guy had two votes, VERY lhf at this point. i do not believe he sticks a vote on his scummate like that at this time

interacting w chaco about his read on me in pg 5 doesnt seem like itd make sense for him to do w chaco in thread if theyre mates. thats why you have scumchat. and again, i believe him trying to get a read on my slot, and trying to have chaco help him to do that. and if they were mates, theyd do it in scumchat.

Spoiler: first readslist, pg 8

ww lean:

nonww lean:
wiisp++
chaco++
rhand++
gellnick++
swiss+++





first impressions: taking a strong side on town!swiss, expressed a side on rhand and chaco.
mao “comfortable,” but he never really mentioned her before this. had been tone!town read by many people in thread already. kind of an easy read.
frozen + exlight ambiguous. at this point, id say they were a step up activity wise from 3dsninja and whysper. ff had some content but it was a post. exlight, the opposite.

looks slightly better for frozen and exlight than it does for mao here, but i dont feel strongly on any of them looking like ww partner yet.

Spoiler: mid D1, pg 9-15

pg 9
broadens up w light interactions w exlight and frozen, and mentions of whysper outside first “random voting” after rvs.
does eido really flat out ignore mao!ww and put her in the same pool as swiss and wiisp? i can see him not thinking about needing to make connections w his partner at this point
whysper is essentially absent yet hes making moves to solve her/reacting to those who have her low on lists in thread.

pg 12
basically “srry havent been around.” he gives a short stance in defense of ff and expresses contempt for gellnick, who he had voted for before. +ff

pg 13
positioned too strongly against rhand and gellnick for them to be mates with him

pg 15

this is his pool, with osie and whysper on bottom for activity.

throws exlight in here but doesnt comment on it. similar to how he has mao as a townread, except with mao its radio silence. speaks about scarlet, chaco, rhand and gellnick. by association and interactions, he threw exlight in a pool of a bunch of people who are probably not ww. also fairly low hanging fruit, mao swiss and i all had recently expressed scumreads on him +exlight.

Spoiler: post cop claim, pg 18-25

ww lean:

nonww lean:
ff+
whysper+
chaco+++
wiisp+++
rhand+++
gellnick+++
swiss+++

pg 20
doesnt think wiisp is lying about the claim. lines up with his thoughts. id be shocked if theyre mates at this point.

pg 21


chaco/gellnick have been fairly consistent reads, and he groups whysper in now since her having posted. +whysper, +chaco.
exlights grouping in “players to watch out for” gone after sides are being taken in his favor/lessening of outward support against him. -exlight
STILL no mention of mao

pg 25
clarifies error on what roles do: says maf are incentivized to kill him, ww to defend him. i wonder if that means that his scummate is not exactly doing this (like mao and ff, challenging wiisp’s cop claim)

Spoiler: eod approaching, pg 26-31

ww lean:

nonww lean:
exlight+
ff++
whysper++
chaco+++
wiisp+++
rhand+++
gellnick+++
swiss+++

pg 26
talking to osie looking for further detail on frozen read. continuing to try to solve ff. +ff.

pg 27


whysper placement here makes me think +whysper. another case of lhf along with gellnick.
expounds on leaning town on exlight, looks to interact with me (a townread of his and i was townreading him) about my strong stance against exlight. reads like someone interested in the argument. +exlight

Spoiler: eod readslist, pg 31

ww lean:
osie -
mao—

nonww lean:
exlight++
ff++
whysper++
chaco+++
wiisp+++
rhand+++
gellnick+++
swiss+++



first impressions: mao is suddenly null now. clearly doesnt wanna call himself comfortable w her cuz he hasnt said anything about her at all. hes said more to osie than her. -mao
him placing exlight in the same comfort tier as swiss and i when we are both scumreading him is a big deal. i dont think he backs his mate like that in the face of us scumreading him. +exlight

w mao and osie i can say he took no steps to try solving them at any point in the game. his posts were very focused on solving, and he didnt do that at all with them. w osie i can see it cuz he just got her, w mao its an outlier in his play. -mao -osie

short conclusion: eido looked like he was trying to solve the game. mao and osie are the only people he didnt seem to have any expressed interest in solving at all. osie is reasonable, mao is not. there is zero interaction there. this is eidos second game, i can absolutely buy the idea that eido didnt take into account that he needed to put distance between him and his buddy.

the only possible mates imo are ff, exlight, mao and osie. ff and exlight are doubtful, and osie is there from lack of presence until eod.

i think mao is ww

From my own ISO of Eido, I'm surprised you said nothing about the way Eido's only mention of ExLight is when they suddenly start defending them with no previous mention of ExLight. Also – and I'm surprised no one has pointed this out yet – isn't Eido's handling of my slot the exact same as some other people here?

They threw an easy townread on me after I was townread by you, Rhand and Swiss. When Osie subbed in and started giving me heat, they had no problem moving me down, but I certainly wasn't in a position to be executed, unlike today.

Speaking of Osie, why does Eido's handling of their slot make them not teammates? This isn't about how I read them, but more about your thought process. They never pushed on Osie, unlike they did with Whysper, and immediately moved them to the top when it was possible.

Overall, that ISO of yours seems highly biased. You're exaggerating things and seemingly wrote that with a one-track mind.

 

[Detective Mao]

This makes me think I should ISO Gorf again. Bleh. I'll do it tomorrow.

I kind of want to apologize for my bad time management, I'm definitely not playing to my best potential here and I feel like you all deserve better

I don't know how much time I'll have tomorrow, but I'll try my best to be active, yeah? Good night.

 

[Wiisp]

Why is FF doubtful?
Osie is not an option today, period. If you want me to work with you, then listen to the above statement, please.

 

[Detective Mao]

Why is FF doubtful?
Osie is not an option today, period. If you want me to work with you, then listen to the above statement, please.

This isn't about how I read them, but more about your thought process.

Good night.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

ff doubtful based on the idea that eido was trying to solve for mafia yesterday, and that he had kept at it with ff from around like pg 8 for a while. i could be wrong about my theory for eidos real motives, but judging by the quality of solving most of his play, he’s isn’t really a “strong” voiced player. So I’m looking at differences times through the Day where he was outwardly posting about solving ff, mentioning him. in contrast, he mentions mao zero times.

i said osie cuz I was isoing mao without preconceived notions. Osies towncore, not the play

 

[Wiisp]

Good night.

Ohh sorry lol

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Internet went out during the gorf iso

Bro.

Lmao whoops, forgot I said that. I knew you technically "answered" it but it wasn't what I was looking for so I was coming on overtly strong to drop a bombshell

 

[Wiisp]

This makes me think I should ISO Gorf again. Bleh. I'll do it tomorrow.

I kind of want to apologize for my bad time management, I'm definitely not playing to my best potential here and I feel like you all deserve better

I don't know how much time I'll have tomorrow, but I'll try my best to be active, yeah? Good night.

I would appreciate the Gorf iso, since I don't have the attention span to iso anymore

 

[Nerbins]

Why would they want you to claim PR, as scum, if they didn't think you were one?

They didn't think I would and wanted to set an easy bait to look town, thinking it would probably fail. Keep in mind this isn't necessarily scum indicative and it might've just been a weak bait, maybe not even a bait at all, but what I said is still a possibility
Also not too long ago I asked Chop if people get alerted when roleblocked and they said "no, unless stated otherwise" so that answers that

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

I would appreciate the Gorf iso, since I don't have the attention span to iso anymore

I was working on one, will start back up again because I lost the quotes I wanted

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

yo you are saaaalty mao

1) that is not eidos only mention of exlight? prove what you’re saying here
2) idk if anybody else mentioned you literally zero times, but a werewolf mentioned you literally zero times.
3) he did throw an easy townread on you, and did move you down by eod after osie was giving you heat. i wonder why he asked osie to clarify his ff read and not his read on you. the question about ff is consistent with the rest of his play, NOT asking about you isn’t.
4) i said eidos handling of osie makes them -, which means makes them possibly teammates. I don’t think osie and him are teammates cuz i townread osie
5) im too good of a player to spend time writing and giving a highly biased iso. ill give highly biased reads, like when i said I townleaned you at the beginning of the Day. it took thinking to make me question whether you’re scum or not.

 

[Wiisp]

Idk about looking town, but yes I don't see anyone outside a weaker wolf claiming their PR, since it's 100% the correct play to claim VT, since any new claim today should create a dichotomy at this point, unless the one claiming is town

 

[Nerbins]

Hey Poyzin who do you think is traitor?

 

[Wiisp]

Also no lie, but saying ,"catch me in a lie", just seems like such awkward statement if you are in fact town

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Hey Poyzin who do you think is traitor?

I legit do not care. Trying to slot people as ww/maf/traitor in my mind is splitting hairs in my mind. On the flipside, out of my scumreads, I would prefer to hit WW out of all of the options, but tbh the traitor is the least of my concerns out of the evils roles because a. They have no kill, and b. They have no confirmed teammates. Killing traitor is probably the worst of the evil roles to kill here so trying to decide who it is on D2 is a waste of time, imho.

Incorrect readslist, this is going through serious renovations but Wiisp/Osie are town to me and Nerbins is basically locked scum. The town leans and null reads are so volatile atm but I need to redo some sorting among the current categories. This readslist will have entries for each player instead of just listing them:
Wiisp
Osie
Mao
Swiss
Rhand
FrozenFlame
Shurian
Gellnick
Gorf
Nerbins

 

[Wiisp]

#HBC | Gorf
I'm finna let you do your thing, but associative based reads will burn you one day, I still have no idea where I wanna place Mao yet. Also this is kinda hypocritical of me given my poor reactions to pressure, but there is little need to poke the beast here.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

If we're going for WW, then shouldn't I not be an option today? From what I've seen, Eido didn't like me very much, second to last on their list. Don't know how they play but that seems like an awfully low place to put your buddy

AAAAAAAAAAASGJADLSJGS:GASDJGLASFJD I was iso'ing gorf and I found this post and I haaaaate thiiiiiiis wiiiiifooooom defeeeense

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