Mafia All Stars: In the end, it was Nothing Special

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Macman we already know your vig, tell us your full role so we know your not lying.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Vote Macman

 

[Evil Eye]

Mac telling us his full role doesn't confirm or deny anything at all...

 

[Tandora]

Praxis, can you tell us what game your role is from originally?

Mac, who did you target last night?

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Mac telling us his full role doesn't confirm or deny anything at all...

Are you saying it's not benificial at all to have him character claim?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

what do you mean you already know i'm vig? If you know that i'm the vig why is it necessary that I claim?

 

[Evil Eye]

Are you saying it's not benificial at all to have him character claim?

Uh, yes, I am. There were third party deaths that had to be independent of the jan-killing of J (happened on N1, the night he was killed, and N3), so the chances of Macman being mafia that is taking the vig claim off J's body are almost nil.

Meanwhile he has said that he has a good reason not to claim his character, and Praxis has made a compelling argument for "swords or macman for vig", so I think the burden of proof is on you to provide what we gain with that claim. And you haven't proven jack **** in that regard. I also said that it neither confirms nor denies anything, and yet you instructed him to character claim "so we know your not lying". You did not defend this assumption.

And let me remind you that, again, this is a KiKi game and, again, mafia has had full safeclaims in every KiKi game I've ever played.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

what do you mean you already know i'm vig? If you know that i'm the vig why is it necessary that I claim?

You have already claimed your role, why do you find it necessary to hide your character?

@EE: His role could be safe claimed, but so can any role in any game. Believe it or not, his character claim will help.

 

[Evil Eye]

Like arguing with a microwave.

Praxis, speak up. You disappeared the moment **** got even more serious.

 

[Praxis]

Historically Sunday/Monday are my least active days (see my other games) as I work Tuesday through Saturday and post from work. I've been observing from my phone but been out running errands and doing crap. My posting yesterday messed up my schedule quite a bit, actually, but Swords = vig hit me like a lightning bolt and I did a speed re-read of D1.


I'm with Seph on this, actually. Swords is V/LA and cannot defend himself nor counterclaim.


If Macman claimed anything other than vig or cop, we probably would lynch him toDay to keep Swords alive and he knows it. If Macman is scum, he realizes this, and also realizes that if he claims vig and we lynch the real vig (Swords), scum gets an extra town PR lynched and gets their NK before lynching him the following turn. I realize this is entirely WIFOM; what I'm saying is that Macman has sufficient reason to claim vig if he's vig and if he's scum, so we still need to verify that he is vig instead of taking his word for it.

My own role notwithstanding (my role will have a significant effect toNight even if I die, so I do not need to claim doctor's protection, though if I do survive the night to begin anew, I'll claim and ask for doc protection if it is needed), we also need to know whether Macman needs protection toNight.

Further, and perhaps even more importantly, we need to figure out what happened last night. There's a scum mechanic we don't know, and a Macman claim will help us figure it out.


So we need to:

A) Verify Macman is in fact the Vig

B) Figure out why nobody died last Night.

C) Find out who Macman targetted last Night.


IMO, we still need to get Macman to L-2. Macman needs to claim so we can look up his role PM in the game he's from (scum have safeclaims, but what are the odds that they have a safeclaim for the vigilante role?) and verify his abilities, and then he needs to provide a reasonable explanation for why no vigkill occurred on N3 and tell us who he targetted.

And, of course, doc should consider protecting Macman if we don't lynch him. Maybe flip a coin between Seph and Macman and not tell us which he gets.

Get Macman to L-2. Macman, full claim and answer the above questions.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

IMO, we still need to get Macman to L-2. Macman needs to claim so we can look up his role PM in the game he's from (scum have safeclaims, but what are the odds that they have a safeclaim for the vigilante role?) and verify his abilities, and then he needs to provide a reasonable explanation for why no vigkill occurred on N3 and tell us who he targetted.

It's like your speaking my mind.

 

[Praxis]

Also, I will consider people avoiding this discussion, or making meager contributions without contributing a vote and disappearing as the deadline approaches, to be potential scum if Swords gets modkilled and flips town. We have very little time to come to a conclusion.

We're going to get INCREDIBLY strong reads off of how people are reacting to this discussion once Swords and Macman actually flip. Everyone needs to weigh in, and everyone should be putting votes until Macman hits L-2.

Macman's still at L-4.

 

[Praxis]

SwordsRBroken is viewing the thread 0_o

Swords, claim now if you're town.

If you're scum, nevermind, get modkilled <3

 

[Tandora]

Praxis, I got your back, yo.

*brofist*

UNVOTE VOTE MACMAN

 

[#HBC | Mac]

its really annoying that you guys are assuming that a player who never even claimed vig is vig, Especially when that player constantly directed vig to shoot specific people, including me. Never did you see me get anxious about being a vig target cuz i knew I wasn't gonna die despite multiple people, OS specifically trying to get a potential vig to shoot me.

You'd rather lynch the person that claims vig over the one who has yet to even claim anything or talk at all today. Especially when anyone whose been paying attention would see that I'm not scum. I've removed my vote off LL and switched it to glg and even advocated others to vote for glg just before the d1 deadline. Was swords on the glg lynch or the LL one? I'm not even gonna bother to check.

But nah let's throw logic aside and lynch the claimed pr and keep the player who hasn't spoken or said anything (not claiming vig) all day alive because for some reason we believe he's the vig. So when tomorrow comes he can just be like oh well I never even claimed vig so you don't have **** to lynch me off of. Or maybe he would just continue to not talk.

I do have a specific reason for not claiming fully and I hope you guys don't force me to.

Something I just realized, We have to think about the numbers game. If tandora is a cultist, and I get lynched today it may spell doom for us tomorrow. Especially if swords just gets inactive modkilled which wouldn't require a town majority. I'd have to think about this possible scenario more but i don't feel like it right now.

I don't even know why i'm bothering trying to defend myself, I think if I claimed fully everything would make sense (atleast more stuff) but it would be less beneficial to town during the end game.

If swords isn't mafia than I think we might have a serious issue winning this game.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

and then he needs to provide a reasonable explanation for why no vigkill occurred on N3 and tell us who he targetted.

this is dumb. Why is the vig supposed to magically know why or why not his shot didn't go through.

also, praxis why would I bother claiming vig now if there was a good chance swords was the real vig. That would just be pointless cuz when he gets modkilled, I'd just get lynched the next day.

 

[Praxis]

Explain the lack of vigkill last Night. Is it indicative of a scum role?

More tomorrow, gonna sleep, but want an answer on that.

I'm trying to put you at L-2 so town can decide whether to lynch you or let Swords get modkilled without all of us being online on December first. Don't get all panicked yet. You're at L-3 now, Zen or EE, one more please?

 

[Praxis]

Ninja'd.

this is dumb. Why is the vig supposed to magically know why or why not his shot didn't go through.

also, praxis why would I bother claiming vig now if there was a good chance swords was the real vig. That would just be pointless cuz when he gets modkilled, I'd just get lynched the next day.

As explained in my post, we'd probably have lynched you for claiming anything but vig considering that you and Swords are the biggest unknowns and Swords would have to be vig if you were not.

Sure you'd die the next day after a mislynch, but that's better than dying toDay.

I love how you're avoiding my questions so terribly. Did you receive any kind of mod confirmation (say, that your night action failed)? Who did you target?

It's an incredibly important question since Swords has a very easy explanation (he was V/LA), and it implies a scum roleblocker or a scum doctor if you're telling the truth.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I'm avoiding that question cuz it defeats the purpose of me not full claiming. Which is what I want to do.


What i've written should be sufficient enough to convince you guys that I'm the vig and not swords and why its not in towns best interest to lynch me over swords today.

 

[Tandora]

Praxis, don't forget that the actual deadline is 12/5. The 12/1 deadline is only if Swords hasn't posted by then. We don't actually have to rush.

 

[Overswarm]

You know what the problem is?

Praxis and Macman saying "Derr, we're more important than town". You're not.

Both should claim in full.


IF WE WERE ALL VANILLA TOWNIES WE WOULD STILL WIN.

Claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim.

 

[Evil Eye]

@mod: I'd like to request an extension on the SwordsRBroken modkill due to the beyond excessive SWF downtime in the last 24 hours-ish.

 

[Evil Eye]

As it stands I would vastly prefer Swords dying over Macman. Vastly. And I'm fine with making that a firm stance.

 

[Overswarm]

Agree with swords dying before Macman. I'm more inclined to beileve Macman is scum rather than swords simply because swords isn't here, but a modkill tomorrow would be bad.

We're going to have to kill Tandora tomorrow to check her claim.

When did Tandora claim to start the masonry thing, btw?

 

[X1-12]

imo

Swords Modkill > Swords lynch > Macman lynch

 

[Overswarm]

Why?


Keep in mind, I still want to lynch Praxis toDay. Or Tandora. Either or.

 

[X1-12]

If we are going to lynch Swords, a modkill is better as it possibly could allow the Day to continue. Macman is actually playing the game whereas Swords isn't and furthermore I believe Macman's claim of vig and don't really see why other people don't. Why would you believe no argument (Swords) over a fairly understandable argument, when vig was directed at Mac I assumed that Mac was probably either bulletproof (unlikely) or the vig. Now he claims vig I believe him.

Do you want my thoughts on Praxis/Tan? I assume that's what you are implying. Shamelessly I have not been scumhunting recently in this game, purely working on numbers and mechanics atm. Regardless I believe they're both town - I think the fact that Mentos flipped what is presumably his original role null on both of them, look at Gaston, he flipped goon and since then no-one has been made a fool of, perhaps the flips are not revealing all information about each player? Just an idea. Worth mentioning if I had to chose a Praxis or Tandora Lynch, I'd go with Praxis because I remember early game having legit town reads on Tan, but nothing on Praxis.

 

[Overswarm]

The idea is to discover Tandora's role. She could easily be a mafia burglar that is able to recruit others. If there is a cultist of some sort, it is probably indie, and if Tandora didn't claim until D2 then it could be that the cultist recruited Tandora and made her claim. Mentos' flip doesn't do much for me yet, still waiting on Tandora's flip. Hearing Praxis and Tandora fight tooth and nail not to claim solidifies my stance.

Agree with modkill on Swords being a potential better option.

Who should Macman vig?

I'd say either EE, Tandora, or Praxis.

 

[X1-12]

Explain why you think EE should be vigged?

 

[Overswarm]

Pick the most dangerous player in this game as scum and/or an independent.

 

[Xivii]

I don't care about Praxis claiming or not. Mac needs to tell us what he did though. At least last night.

Also Tanny that was so scummy >_>

 

[Praxis]

*facepalm*
OS, your play is horrifying.

How would we win if we were all vanilla townies? If two scum remain, we'd lose with three mislynches. Two, if vig hits town.

Earlier, your "plan" was to slowly clear town, now you want to kill off (lynch+vig) the most likely players to be town to confirm they're town while demanding a massclaim so scum can kill off power roles. I'm astounded by how bad it is, and the FUD about Tandora having been recruited last Night hurts my head.

Plus, you keep being incredibly deceptive about Tandora's actions.

Hearing Praxis and Tandora fight tooth and nail not to claim solidifies my stance.

EE has already pointed out to you that Tandora claimed repeatedly and both role and character name.

Pick the most dangerous player in this game as scum and/or an independent.

Read: Pick the most townie or strongest player?

I'd say either EE, Tandora, or Praxis.

No no no.
Macman, I realize I'm pissing you off today, but if you are vig, do not shoot OS, EE, Tandora, or me toNight.
My role will have a very significant effect on the first two players, and I need to talk with Tandora during the Night phase.


We're going to have some fantastic mod confirmed information toMorrow to play off of. Either Tandora or myself will probably be the play toMorrow.

Vig needs to kill Lionel Luthor IMO. @mod, can we prod him? I can die toMorrow Night.

Tandora; the Burglar role PM indicates you can recruit up to three. Do you know if this means three total (i.e. you can only recruit one more time), or have three in the masonry at any time (meaning you can recruit twice more if I do not die)?


Gonna address Macman in a moment.

 

[Kirby King]

Lionel Luthor has been prodded.

 

[Overswarm]

The scummiest players in teh game right now are you and Tandora, Praxis, followed by Macman, all because of your reluctance to claim.

 

[X1-12]

sez you

 

[Overswarm]

Yes, says me. What would have been a numbers game is becoming more complex as a result, so a scum victory is possible with the current turn of events.

 

[Praxis]

I'm avoiding that question cuz it defeats the purpose of me not full claiming. Which is what I want to do.


What i've written should be sufficient enough to convince you guys that I'm the vig and not swords and why its not in towns best interest to lynch me over swords today.

What did you write??

You claimed vig.

Then you wouldn't tell us why your night action failed, wouldn't tell us if it was indicative of a scum role or not, acted as if you shouldn't be expected to have an explanation, parrotted my reasons for not claiming which are very, very specific to my unusual role, and told us that your post history should make you look town.

I just reviewed your post history. It's horrible. You take virtually no stances, comment on the obvious the entire game, are constantly apologizing for inactivity, claim to have skimmed repeatedly, and oddly for some reason Tandora considered you town early on.

We need to know:

A) Why no one died N3
B) Whether no one dying N3 might be related to a scum role
C) Whether you need doc protection
D) What you think of people, because you have virtually no usable activity to reference!!


You're not in the same situation as me. I'm likely to be town (confirmed town assuming Tandora's role clause about "some" to be a game-specific red herring), you're going to be Night Killed if Swords flips not-vig, and I've breadcrumbed the hell out of my role and night actions in a manner that will be very, very easily determined with my flip. You've contributed virtually no content, expect us to believe you simply because Swords cannot respond, have no breadcrumbs, won't help us to figure out scum's abilities, and are parrotting my reasons for not claiming.

Full claim. We're not going to think you're scum if your role sounds scummy; the only remotely breadcrumby post I could find was this:

I don't follow this logic at all

I'm not claiming unless i'd be lynched otherwise. OS the issue with your whole claiming plan is that roles in this game don't seem as though they are representative of alignment. Which is something i've brought up before. Praxis clearly isn't getting lynched today.

I am somewhat worried about tandora being cultist, but mentos did flip town so idk.

I've already even suggested that the doctor could be scum, so don't worry about that if that's what you're thinking. You could be Satan, Town Vigilante and I probably won't question it if we can verify the original game.

I will give Tandora my role toNight and full claim immediately in the morning. I guarantee that, if I die toNight, you will be able to decipher my night actions through my breadcrumbs *and* Tandora can tell you them as well if she doesn't die too.

You can't make that same assurance, and your Day play has been virtually useless to town.

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah, I don't buy it.

If some people know and it isn't just you, scum could know.

If one scum know, ALL scum know. WTF wouldn't all of town want to know?

If only YOU know, you just breadcrumbed to scum about what to do.


Seriously, if there's an ability that is public like this and we can discuss it, it KIND OF makes it obvious that scum is going to figure it out before town if we don't talk about it. We have a DGames archive thread. Do you want each individual townie to go through it? Because they won't. Scum will know though.

Give me a reason why I should let you hide information that every scum member could know.

grahhhhh

I've been saying this from the beginning.


Praxis, are you planning on killing me and EE toNight -_-;;

 

[Praxis]

Yes, says me. What would have been a numbers game is becoming more complex as a result, so a scum victory is possible with the current turn of events.

Explain the numbers game.

Your original "numbers game" was to use Tandora recruits to clear people. Suddenly she may have been recruited by a cultist or scum, so now you want to lynch her and I. By that point, we'll have two more town deaths, and potentially be in lylo if a vig kill hits town, with no cleared players. How are you planning to clear town if I claim a role that will be useless upon my claiming and Macman full claims vig and Swords dies?

My not claiming will turn this game in to a numbers game toMorrow with confirmed information, and your tunneling me is the only thing interfering with that. Be productive and participate instead of pouting.

 

[Overswarm]

interesting you chose Green, praxis. A minor bit irritating too. What do you think of this macman?



also, praxis and macman ARE in teh same boat. We have no confirmation of either Praxis or Macman, and neither are assumed town.