Mafia All Stars: In the end, it was Nothing Special

[Xivii]

LOL

vote: Swords

OS you think it's likely Gheb oiled on a n0 ~.^? Not sure about that. I think it's more likely there are 3 kill roles i.e vig.

 

[Evil Eye]

You don't have to trust me, but Evil Eye doesn't need to claim. He will be cleared or exposed as scum next turn.

That said, if town wishes not to trust me, I won't argue against his claiming as I don't think it hurts us.

I hope this doesn't mean yet another PR action is going to be wasted on me. I understand that Nich played like a poopy ***hole, but I can't help that, and I feel that I've been protown enough that two night actions being a waste isn't an unreasonable position to take. Because X1 targeted me last night, and because the assumption of a vig was worked into The Plan but we didn't have one, we've got the exact same number of question marks toDay as we did yesterDay, while the only reveal with me is "no abilities", so I'd say I wasn't incorrect in saying it was wasteful.

As for OS, no, he isn't cleared. I can see three easy possibilities, actually; mafia has a firefighter, which allows them to hose each other down and minimize the anti-scum impact of an arsonist, which helps hugely in balancing the abundance of town power roles vs a presumably standard-sized scumteam. Another is that OS was in fact a Town Firefighter but was recruited at some point by the mafia, a possibility which mentos's shrink flip somewhat supports. (or a cult, but I agree that that would probably be too swingy to balance well). Lastly, it's possible that X1 and OS are both mafia, and that J was the Firefighter, while X1 was the stalker. This wouldn't be the best play, though, but it remains an inarguable possibility.

I'm curious what your meta is that has you clearing him, as I don't see the advantage in hiding it, other than playing in the interest of future games, which is something I never care for. Play for the moment. This game is what matters, in this thread.

Also curious how you purport that he'll also be cleared/whatever but I won't press it since I assume that ties into all your other vague secrecy, and such.

If OS really does "know" Praxis is town, though, I'm disturbed by the amount of time he's spent dogging people he openly thinks are town. Not a bad strategy for a vocal and manipulative player that is scum and on the ropes. Still, I'm on the fence about him overall.

I work a bunch this weekend, but I'm going to Bioware it up and map out connections. I always do my best hunting with a scumflip out in the open, and we've got two. Should be able to find an interesting thing or two.

 

[Evil Eye]

@Zen: Uh, frozenflame died on N2. So I'm pretty sure OS is positing that Gheb oiled him up on N1. Which would be good play for an indy arsonist, because as town ff is a dangerous and voracious scumhunter, and as mafia ff is a dangerous and voracious faux-scumhunter that probably tries to find antitown parties (like an arsonist) before anything else. So, yeah, I do believe it's possible Gheb would do that.

 

[Xivii]

EE is playing so town o-o

 

[Tandora]

N1 - Scamp and J died
N2 - FF and BY died
N3 - Only mentos died. Why?

 

[Praxis]

Zen, who did you protect?

 

[Xivii]

I protected Seph.

 

[Xivii]

Assuming mafia made kill attempts all 3 nights and Gheb couldn't oil before n1, vig had to have shot scamp n1. N2 either mafia killed BY and Vig killed FF or Gheb killed FF and Vig didn't shoot. So Vig could be 1 shot or just decided not to shoot the past 2 nights for some reason. Or they could have shot FF and targeted either Seph or Mentos, or just didn't shoot..

 

[Overswarm]

There is a reason, and if I tell you, you'll facepalm and go "ooooh, my bad".
Get off your ego trip.
Forget about me, let the doc protect the watcher and watcher protect Tandora.

Why, exactly, is scum going to let you live tonight? What "glorious plan" is going to save you tonight? You already made yourself a target.

Claim, claim fully, and town can use you. Otherwise, you need to be the play toDay because you're a wild card and town needs no wild cards.

This is the easiest mafia game ever at this point unless we let things fly under our noses. I am not letting this one go.

@OS: Remember when you were all secretive-like in Bioware? There were two important possibilities that worried me: 1) OS is a yak or some other possibly-oneshot proscum PR that hasn't used his ability yet; 2) OS is town and being secretive because it helps the town.

Yeah, I remember. Bioware didn't have as many claims early on as this one did.

By the end of D3, I felt certain it was scenario #2. I see a similar dilemma here, but ultimately, as with Bioware, I don't think I see some kind of magic win being pulled out of the mafia's ***. At least, not one that is cemented by not making Praxis claim, nor one that is ruined by making him claim. I think you're overreacting a bit, here.

This is exactly why EVERYONE needs to claim. I don't see a win being pulled out of thin air by a scum faction. The fact that I don't see one coming is what worries me. We're flying blind and trying to find a needle in the haystack. What's more, Praxis claims he's able to say X amount of people are town, but only "tomorrow".

Here are our logical options:

1) Say "Der, okay Praxis! We trust you for no reason."

2) Say "No. Claim, or you die. Pro town = claiming, anti town = secret. If you're a worthwhile power, you'll be protected, possibly in multiple ways."

If we do #1 and Praxis is scum, we're in for a headache.

What if Praxis is a recruiter?
What if Tandora is a recruiter of some sort?
What is Tandora is an indie and only need to put a certain amount of players into their group?
What if Praxis is a yak?
What if what if what if?

There are dozens of roles that both Tandora and Praxis could be. NEITHER OF THEM ARE CONFIRMED AS TOWN.

If we do #1 and Praxis is town, we get the exact same result as #2.

If we do #2, Praxis would be protected and/or watched if his power is really that helpful and then mafia can kill someone else that we leave out in the open. Keep in mind both Sephiroths Masamune and Zen are not cleared as town; we're merely directing them at the moment. Them dying wouldn't be a huge ordeal. Given current issues with Tandora's slot, I'm willing to let her die too. I'm pretty perplexed by the statement of "I'll talk to Tandora at Night about it" from Praxis and Tandora eagerly agreeing with Praxis. What does Tandora know? How could Tandora know?

You said you're still worried about a cult -- I thought you'd mostly dismissed that notion earlier for balance reasons?

Dismissed as likely, not dismissed as a possibility.

Also, why am I the first to claim? I'm not bothered by it, but I was hoping to see if someone else claims my role; furthermore, I believe frozenflame has flipped as a goon, so X1's investigation drastically decreases the chances of my being mafia. The only passive mafia PR I can think of is the godfather which, I admit, would be perfect for me as mafia in this scenario, but in a KiKi game you can bet your *** I'd have a great safeclaim, anyway. Don't really see the advantage in making me claim first when we still have some especially severe question marks.

You're the most clever player in the game at the moment. Making you claim first gives you less wiggle room for lying. I've seen you fishing for information here and there, and I don't want you to get any more before your forced to stick your neck out to say anything false.

Random Talking Point #1: In the postgame comments I quoted above, I noted that there were several interesting exceptions to The Burglar's masoning. Might be worth mentioning them, as there could be similar loopholes in this game -- hell, probably are. Mysterio (the mafia lawyer/framer) could be recruited into the masonry but would retain his mafia alignment. The Sandman (mafia godfather), Carnage (indy SK), Bullseye (Mafia Hitman), and The Spot (mafia bus driver) would all kill him in the recruiting attempt. The Rhino (indy jester) could be recruited and would become a townie, while The Kingpin (indy politician) could be recruited into the masonry, but would retain his indy alignment and wincon.

Once again: Praxis needs to claim.

EVERYONE needs to claim. We're either missing information, which means we need to claim to figure out what is going on, or we have all the info we need and there's one sad little scum player left... which means claiming won't hurt us in any way since he already has nearly half a dozen power roles to look at



Also, I think Gheb was notified that Seph Masamune was hosed down; I selected Seph to hose down, and Gheb mentioned it. As FF died N2, this means Gheb either didn't kill FF or had a n0 action, since he presumably had primed Seph on N1, unless he can prime and light on the same day (which I don't think is common).

 

[Praxis]

No.

Pout about it all you want.

Me claiming is anti-town. I recognize that you don't have the means to understand why, and I apologize that I cannot clarify further. I have a very unusual role.

If you want to lead a lynch on a confirmed townie for playing pro-town, be my guest.

Zen can protect Seph. My ability has already accomplished enough and Tandora can show you the bread crumbs if I die that will reveal a lot of confirmed information on townies. I've left enough crumbs that you should be able to decipher it based on my role flip regardless, so you don't have to believe her (in fact, please do attempt to verify just in case she has somehow been recruited by toMorrow).

The longer I live, the more my role will be able to do, so me surviving is pro town, but I don't think I'm doing more good than the watcher+tandora setup will be able to, so I want to keep that setup intact.

Zen protect Seph, Seph watch Tandora, Tandora clear someone.

Scum can kill Zen, leaving my PR to accomplish more, or scum can kill me, leaving the doctor and watcher alive. Whatever.

Plan without me, and trust me to be making a pro-town play. If you make me claim, you screw us over.

Scum killing me hurts town, but so does scum killing Seph. I'll still have accomplished enough if I die, so just protect Seph.

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah, no.

No breadcrumbs.

Say it now.

 

[Praxis]

What if Praxis is a recruiter?

Then Tandora's recruit would have failed.

What if Tandora is a recruiter of some sort?

Then Mentos would have flipped scum.

What is Tandora is an indie and only need to put a certain amount of players into their group?

Then Mentos would have flipped indie.

What if Praxis is a yak?p

Then Tandora's recruit would have failed.

What if what if what if?

There are dozens of roles that both Tandora and Praxis could be. NEITHER OF THEM ARE CONFIRMED AS TOWN.

Most of these scenarios you are concocting are outlandish. It's incredibly hard to reconcile Mentos' town flip.

Occam's Razor. Tandora is a town mason recruiter. She recruited Mentos. Mentos is town. Recruit was successful. Scum killed Mentos. Mentos flipped town. Tandora recruited Praxis. Praxis is town. Recruit was successful.

This makes far more sense than anything you've proposed.

If we do #1 and Praxis is town, we get the exact same result as #2.

No, you don't. You don't know what my role is, and I guarantee you that me claiming will hurt town.

If we do #2, Praxis would be protected and/or watched if his power is really that helpful and then mafia can kill someone else that we leave out in the open.

You are making assumptions about how my role works.



You're creating a false dilemma and branding keeping secrets as anti-town. It's fallacious, and I'm trying to figure out if you are scum and doing it on purpose, or letting town leadership inflate your ego in to being dumb. Either way, if I don't claim, I will be able to clear you tomorrow.

 

[X1-12]

eh

I think I know what praxis's role is and I think secrecy is unnecessary

 

[Praxis]

Yeah, no.

No breadcrumbs.

Say it now.

No.

 

[X1-12]

actually yeah praxis just ignore OS, don't even argue just don't listen

 

[Praxis]

Unvote
Vote: Swords

Zen, protect Seph.

Seph, watch Tandora.

Tandora, recruit X1.

Macman we'll deal with toMorrow.

I'll claim at the beginning of the day toMorrow.

Anyone other than OS object to any of this?

 

[Overswarm]

WHY would you not claim? Because you're the cop? What difference does it make?

If scum think you're a threat, you die tonight.

Your response: "i'll just tell Tandora all my breadcrumbs and you guys can figure it out"

Why, oh why, do we have to

A) deal with breadcrumbs
B) figure out if Tandora is telling the truth because Tandora isn't confirmed
C) let a potentially powerful role die

when we could just say

"Oh, that's your role. Scum can't do anything, Zen, protect Praxis"


What good does it do?

 

[Praxis]

Stop rolefishing.

 

[Overswarm]

No. I'm asking you to claim pretty straight forwardly. I'm not "fishing" for anything.


Praxis, you're playing very anti-town right now with your secrecy. This compromises both you and Tandora, imo.

There are to be no secrets to Town right now. None. There's no reason for there to be any. We have plenty of powerful roles already claimed; yours will be no different than theirs.

 

[Overswarm]

Oh, and Praxis?


Someone NKills Praxis
Turns out Seph Masa was scum and NKills Tandora

we get nothing.

There are no holes in you claiming now. No matter what your ability is, NO ONE CAN STOP YOU FROM USING IT IF YOU CLAIM.

 

[Evil Eye]

Praxis, you said OS is clear or exposed by toMorrow if you live. Would this be the case even if you were to die on N4? If that's the case, my inability to see a massive scum play through letting Praxis live on for a short time has me leaning toward his side on this.

Also, Macman, Swords, and Teran are our big, inactive "question marks" here. Could use some prods, by the way. I feel like, if we really do decide to lynch swords, stalking Macman would be the best. Teran is also a possible option, but I haven't puzzled away all of the mechanics that could cause that to bite us in the *** yet.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I actually feel a lot better about OS after he considered a possibility (cult Tando, etc etc) that would make his life easier as mafia. As a mafiat his whole life is easier if he looks town and yet can't accept the masonry as legitimate. He goes to all these lengths and ultimately dismisses them, which really comes across to me as trying to figure things out, and not manufactured.

I don't follow this logic at all

I'm not claiming unless i'd be lynched otherwise. OS the issue with your whole claiming plan is that roles in this game don't seem as though they are representative of alignment. Which is something i've brought up before. Praxis clearly isn't getting lynched today.

I am somewhat worried about tandora being cultist, but mentos did flip town so idk.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

and I apologize for my inactivity but I don't really see us losing though so I'm not too concerned about posting. Especially since it seems to just be bickering about night actions. I would like to stay alive though, I think I'd prove to be useful.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

vote:swords

 

[Evil Eye]

Start being useful then. With everyone bickering about power roles we have a vacuum of actual scumhunting, and your reads as town are among the most trustworthy on the site.

 

[Evil Eye]

Missed your first post of that trio.

What I meant was that as scum, you're in a better position if you can actively discredit or distrust Tandora and her masonry claims. This loosens the noose around scum's neck in regards to what they can talk about and what fauxhunting they can do without looking scummy as all hell. IN kind, OS discusses a Tandora cult for a little while, but he ultimately ends up dismissing it. It seems slightly townie to me, to follow that possibility but come to the conclusion that it's not likely. It's not a strong town tell for me by any means, but it did feel like he was genuinely trying to puzzle something out.

 

[Teran]

I don't see what you could possibly gain out of lynching me.

In other news, Praxis is not scum, he's been one of the most helpful town players in this game. If you're actually seriously going to be considering this lynch, then yourself a favour and lynch yourself irl.

 

[Tandora]

I don't see what you could possibly gain out of lynching me.

In other news, Praxis is not scum, he's been one of the most helpful town players in this game. If you're actually seriously going to be considering this lynch, then yourself a favour and lynch yourself irl.

QFT^. Teran, I love you.

OS, obviously I've full claimed long ago. If you want people to claim so much, why don't you do a full claim and then have your boy X1 do a full claim? Instead of trying to bully everyone else so much.

I'm backing Praxis' play b/c he's done nothing but be pro-town all game. He's in my mason, so I trust him. If I'm a fool for doing that, w/e.

@ Seph, I"ll be targeting X1 tonight. I'll send myself as the recruit so you can watch to see who visits me. If I die with no visitors, assume X1 is scum.

 

[Overswarm]

I've already claimed, Tandora. I'm Shaq, the firefighter. Was the counterpart to Gheb, the Arsonist. I hosed down Seph Masamune and apparently he had been primed, as Gheb claimed he had been hosed down.

The guy who was almost lynched, claimed bomb and said he can't vote after he voted, then said "oh this must mean I just can't be on a vote when they're lynched" and unvoted, then went inactive all game on your side doesn't help you much, by the way.


Oy.

I don't think you guys get it. There is no reason not to claim and every reason to claim. The end goal is to win.

This isn't about figuring out alignment. This is about figuring out what people can do. It's pretty easy to tell if someone's lying when you have roles that allow you to see what their night actions were.

What do you think would have happened if Tandora was NKilled last Night and Seph said "oh, I didn't watch her"? We'd say "bing! Found a scum player" and lynch Seph, because he didn't follow town's orders and thus is either scum or is town that screwed town over.

Tandora's role does NOT tell us anything concrete about alignment until we see Tandora flip. According to EE, the Burglar role could actually have people of different alignments in the masonry, so it might not mean much at all.



We can choose who to lynch
We can choose who uses what ability on who


But if we have wild cards, things can go wrong.

You're an idiot if you don't see that. Praxis could claim ultra vig that gets to target 5 people every Night and only kills mafia and independents and scum still couldn't safely kill him. Doc protect. Seph Watches. He survives no matter what. We can direct his kill.

Now?

Praxis is either lynched toDay, or killed toNight. He's too dangerous to be left alive because he's acting independently of town and is swimming in a grey area. The #1 thing not to do in mafia is to let someone say "trust me, I'll fill you in toMorrow" and let them. They claim, they claim now, and we hold them to every word they say. If we can't guarantee that we can force their hand in some way, we lynch them immediately because taking risks is not how you win as town.

Everyone claims.

 

[Tandora]

You say you cannot trust me because my role may have been changed. That goes the same from me to you. Someone has already shown that your firefighter could have been corrupted to mafia.

Instead of focusing on people we believe to be town, let's actually scumhunt.
Fact - Seph has claimed Watcher
Fact - I am claimed Mason.
Fact - Praxis is in my mason.
Fact - Lionel Luthor claimed bomb
Fact - Zen claimed doctor.
Fact - OS claimed Firefighter
Fact - X1 claimed he can investigate people's roles.

Conclusion - These people are the most likely to be town.

Fact - On D1, Macman voted GLG, could have helped lynch LL and get an extra townie killed if he was scum. Instead he moved over to another target that was scum and a less likely lynch.

Conclusion - Unlikely to be scum.

This leaves EE and Swords as our most likely candidates. Swords has been awfully quiet lately, to the point of suspicion. Lynch Swords today and if Tomorrow roles around we go look at other possibilities.

Considering that there was one kill N3 and two kills each on N1 and N2, we may have to consider our vig was a JOAT instead. N1 mafia killed J while JOAT got scamp, N2 Gheb got FF and Mafia got BY, while N3 mafia just got Mentos.

 

[Overswarm]

@mod prod SwordsRBroken

@Tandora, you think Gheb had a n0 action then?


Praxis is still the play toDay until he claims. I'm tempted to post my PM in retaliation if someone doesn't claim, as it's the only effect I can have on the game at this moment.

You're all operating from the assumption that nothing can go wrong, and something can.


I AM A FIREFIGHTER.

Gheb was an arsonist.

MENTOS WAS A SHRINK.

TANDORA HAS A MASONRY ABILITY.

PRAXIS IS IN SAID MASONRY.

We have over half the game claimed.

Finish the job. Everyone claims toDay and we go through the game logically, step by step, and don't let wild cards exist.

 

[Tandora]

I don't think Gheb had a N0 action. I think he killed FF N2.

Also, I think that your threat is childish and unnecessary. As a mod yourself, you're showing great disrespect to KK with even voicing such a thought. Honestly, I would rather you modkilled yourself than lynch Praxis. However, I would much rather actually lynch someone who is a real suspect instead of someone who has disagreed with you. You threatened Zen with the same thing yesterday, and oddly enough he wasn't lynched.

I think you need to take a mini V/LA, OS. You're way deep into AtE right now and I can personally saying your actions are making it hard to want to work with you.

 

[Evil Eye]

Swords was replaced in DGames mafia, so his being AWOL here too isn't "inactive to the point of suspicion". It's just "inactive". Come on, Tandora, you played Bioware. Honestly now. This is exactly why I said to ****ing investigate Swords yesterDay; so we wouldn't have to have this conversation.

You also forgot to mention that X1 confirmed that I have "no abilities", and the only passive-ability mafiats I can think of are Godfather and Goon, the latter of which flipped as someone else. I'm pretty sure that's closer to clear than Mac, although I certainly agree about GLG vs LL in that regard. Mac has strong reads as town but is rarely as aggressive as he should be with them (and pretty much never as such in the first Days), which we saw in Bioware as well. I like Mac at present.

Anyway I got in a fight at work so I'm going to sleep it off and commence the life-draining process that is EE scumhunting when I wake up.

OS actually raises a decent point about Teran but I have no plans to pursue/dismiss it until I reread. Nonetheless I think OS overvalues mechanical deduction and undervalues scumhunting. Figuring out alignment is always more important than knowing what people can do... I don't really know what not-scummy thing he was trying to say there so I'll just chetface at it and be on my merry way.

 

[Praxis]

Overswarm, you're so rigidly blind it hurts.

If you seriously get yourself mod killed to prove some kind of point, when I actually tell you what my role is you are going to feel incredibly sheepish.

There's a variable you don't know, and I can't tell you what it is without ruining the usefulness to town. You'll get it when I flip or if I claim tomorrow.

My wild card BREAKS if I claim it and will result in damage to town, and town can't really direct it to that great an effect in conjunction with others. Trust me that town is better this way.


Regarding Swords, Swords actually replaced out of modding Halo. He's V/LA.

Tandora, claims =/= likely to be town. X1 is just as likely to be scum as the unclaimed, for example. You're town because of the successful masons and mentos flip. Seph is probably town because he busted one cleanly, and his role is confirmed. Zen could be scum. I have a hard time believing this game has a vanilla doctor.

 

[Overswarm]

EE, the fact that Tandora and Praxis both act so scummy = more important for them to claim.

I'm seriously considering doing a Praxis lynch, Praxis claim, or OS posts his role PM prior to toDay's lynch to pressure town into one of the first two options.

Look at the rapid change in Praxis' playstyle over just today.

We haven't seen Tandora's flip yet, so we don't know her role.

Praxis claims to know multiple alignments but can only claim them toMorrow.

Praxis claimed to have a very useful ability, but despite no evidence of a roleblocker and two protective abilities, says the usefulness disappears if he dies.

He claims to have a strange ability, so he's not something like a watcher or tracker. Can't be a cop.

EE, do YOU know any abilities that a townie can use that can determine alignment that wouldn't work if someone knew if you could? Because I'm pretty sure Praxis is either lying or over-inflating his importance.

 

[X1-12]

i doubt os would ever get himself modkilled tbh. Ignore him praxis, dont even respond to his posts

 

[Overswarm]

You obviously don't know me. If I make the call, I'm not bluffing.

 

[X1-12]

but I still doubt that you will, if you do I hope KK blacklists you forever, as I will do.

Praxis: stay strong, don't listen to him

 

[Tandora]

Tandora, claims =/= likely to be town. X1 is just as likely to be scum as the unclaimed, for example. You're town because of the successful masons and mentos flip. Seph is probably town because he busted one cleanly, and his role is confirmed. Zen could be scum. I have a hard time believing this game has a vanilla doctor.

I understand the truth of this. That's why it's not fact but conclusion. For now it's a good lead.

EE, the fact that Tandora and Praxis both act so scummy = more important for them to claim.

Not listening to someone being unreasonable =/= scummy.

but I still doubt that you will, if you do I hope KK blacklists you forever, as I will do.

Praxis: stay strong, don't listen to him

QFT^

Look OS, I wasn't a fan of you bully Zen yesterday and I sure ain't happy with you're temper tantrum today. You need to seriously take a step back and see how NO ONE is backing your play right now.

You want to push a Praxis lynch? That's within the realm of the game.
You want to "punish" us by revealing your mod PM and getting modkilled? Unreasonable.

Think about a game you mod where someone posted something from a mod pm you sent them and remember how you felt. Sucks, don't it?

The fact that you're doing it as retaliation instead of attempting to help your faction is wrong, plain and simple. I will be blocking all of your posts for the rest of this game.

 

[Overswarm]

Think about a game you mod where someone posted something from a mod pm you sent them and remember how you felt. Sucks, don't it?

X1-12 just did =P

Not listening to someone being unreasonable =/= scummy.

Why the secrecy? What good can it do when we have one, possibly two mafia members left whose only hope is to blend in with town? Shine a light on them.