Mafia All Stars: In the end, it was Nothing Special

[Evil Eye]

Uhhhh... mentosman is the guy that just died. Meta-Kirby isn't in this. Also the Burglar role caps at three recruits, not two.

That said, I'm open to the idea of a mass claim, just because we already have so many roles in the open right now.


Here's the role PM for the Burglar, as well as the post-game comments I said when Spidey Mafia ended.

THE BURGLAR (Mason) - mentosman8

You can't believe you're in! They let you in! This is the big leagues for a small-time crook like yourself, committing low-tech heists and robberies. However, murdering someone close to Spider-Man and causing him irreparable psychological damage has earned you some notoriety in the world of the criminals. However, getting into the Sinister Seventeen... that was not enough. No, you have taken it upon yourself to end this crisis. Now is your time to shine. Each night, you may choose one person to recruit into your Masonry. After you recruit someone, you gain the ability to speak to your fellow mason, but only during the next Night phase, and Night phases following. Masons will retain their powers, if they have any, and know that they have been recruited going into the Day.

Once you have more people in your masonry, you must all vote and reach a majority decision on whom to recruit. If a majority is not reached, you, as the mason leader, make the deciding vote. You also determine which mason makes the recruiting visit. Note that some roles, if visited for recruitment purposes, will result in the death of the attempted recruiter. You may recruit three more masons from the start of the game, bringing the Masonry's population to three masons and yourself as leader.

The command to give would be Recruit: Player Name

You are loyal to the Sinister Seventeen, and you win when all threats to the SS are dead.

What an important role he would have been! Because masons would keep their powers even in being masoned, The Burglar was town's best weapon. Any townie would be recruited as normally. The Rhino would be converted into a townie, but retain his various abilities. Kingpin would be recruited into the masonry, but remain independent, with the same objective and able to join with any side he wished. Lastly, Mysterio could be masoned, and would retain his mafia allignment. Spooky!

Carnage, The Spot, the Sandman and Bullseye would all kill the Burglar if targeted.

Obviously, mentos didn't get a chance to do anything. I think he'd have been one of the strongest players, and would have really led a good masonry. I'm guessing he targeted jungle because he suspected jungle would be an unlikely kill target. ...how right he was...

 

[Evil Eye]

The thing I can't reconcile is that I'm trying to figure out what Tandora has to gain by behaving this way as antitown. She gets X1 (or, later, myself) lynched on false pretenses... and then what? Then she's a cult recruiter that has said bafflingly -- and now confirmably -- dumb things and gotten a townie lynched. And we know what happens to cults when the CL gets decapitated.

Don't understand why she wouldn't just stick her thumb up her butt and let town go where it feels like going, sneak her way through toDay, if she was antitown.

 

[Tandora]

EE you're person B because X1 said he targeted you last night. That's how you're connected.

Whatever on this whole deal, I don't even care any more. We can go with the original plan from Yesterday and lynch Swords and if the game is still going on, we can either look at X1 or me.

 

[Overswarm]

Looked at Chaco Taco mafia stuff.

Mentos' exact player slot couldn't be recruited.

Tandora is not a Chaco Taco, and is unlikely an anti-town role. Still possible, but would be against the spirit of mentos' role.

This makes a mass claim even better. With two scum and one indie dead, we have 1-2 scum left.

Given the size of these game and the fact there is

A) a janitor
B) a goon (meaning mafia probably has a GOOD role left)
C) an arsonist (meaning LOTS of players can die all at once

I find it unlikely that a cult recruiter would be in the game unless the remaining mafia is a goon AND there is only one mafia.

Think of it this way in terms of game balance:

Janitor can hide kills... permanently. That's strong, but not HUGE, when you realize that the arsonist can take out 3-4 townies (potential n0 action) in one day.

That seems, to me, slightly anti-town. Town would have zero ability to make sense of how the game is played until AFTER certain flips went.


AS SUCH


We have to mass claim, then we can make a plan afterwards.

All cop investigations need to be posted publicly ASAP, assuming there is a cop. If there isn't a cop (unless it was praxis and he was culted), I doubt there is a cult even more.


Best case scenario
All claim
Cop isn't Praxis
Cop investigated Tandora, found clear
We kill the one remaining mafia

Worst case scenario
All claim, someone lies and gets caught
town goes on a bickering spree
TvT arguments begin
Town is lynched
Two remaining scum members high five each other
It gets down to the wire







The biggest issue we have at the moment is Lionel Luthor. If he is mafia, he can wait a longggg time, and that's no good. We don't seem to have a vig (Gheb soaked FF N1, lit him up N2, it seems. Fits with player meta too), so if we don't have a cop that's bad news bears. We'll figure that one out after everyone else claims.


And seriously, we're mass claiming.

1) mafia has plenty of targets, they aren't in the dark anymore

Town has several powerful roles claimed already. Hell, the roles claimed are probably better than yours.

2) None of the claimed are mafia

I'm pretty sure of this. Indie? Maybe. Mafia? No. The cultist, if one exists, would not be mafia. This is further proven to me by the fact we've been able to direct the mafia's kill. Tandora claimed to recruit mentos, mentos confirmed, mentos died. Mafia recruiter wouldn't kill his own recruit; that'd be one helluva gambit, especially since they wouldn't be sure how the flip would be. And it'd be easy to figure out down the line, too, since tandora has been a huge cop target all game.

If we have a vig claim and say "I KILLED MENTOS LAWL", this'll be the easiest thing since sliced bread to figure out. Tandora says who tandora will recruit, recruitee confirms next day. If recruitee doesn't, Tandora dies. Vig can target who town chooses. Both mafia claiming vig and cultist claiming masonist are trapped into doing town's bidding, and we'll have an easy breadcrumb trail. "Oh, Tandora is cultist. Kill tandora... kill praxis... kill (next)", etc., etc.

3) even one more confirmed townie is a huge victory for us

The numbers are small. No amount of sweet talking can change anything. The white names are closest to death at the moment. Remove one of them from the pool and we have close to a 1 in 3 chance.




@Tandora

Who did Meta-Kirby target? (Sorry if this was said earlier)


@MOD: If LL is modkilled, would his bomb go off if he had such an ability / restriction / whatever? Hypothetically speaking, of course.

 

[Overswarm]

The thing I can't reconcile is that I'm trying to figure out what Tandora has to gain by behaving this way as antitown. She gets X1 (or, later, myself) lynched on false pretenses... and then what? Then she's a cult recruiter that has said bafflingly -- and now confirmably -- dumb things and gotten a townie lynched. And we know what happens to cults when the CL gets decapitated.

Don't understand why she wouldn't just stick her thumb up her butt and let town go where it feels like going, sneak her way through toDay, if she was antitown.

You claim first.

Tandora might not be acting antitown.

Swords prolly gonna get lynched today unless he has a super obv. claim.

 

[Overswarm]

gah, MENTOS.

Not MKirby. Keep getting the two mixed up. -_-;;

 

[Overswarm]

Also, I'm still town, so X1-12 isn't some sort of recruiter role. Also, Gheb still flipped as indie arsonist. Again, not a recruiter role.

Doubt we have a recruiter.

 

[Tandora]

@Tandora

Who did Meta-Kirby target? (Sorry if this was said earlier)
[/B]

He targeted Seph.

Also, OS you told me to recruit Praxis yesterday. Care to give a reason for that now?

 

[Evil Eye]

I actually feel a lot better about OS after he considered a possibility (cult Tando, etc etc) that would make his life easier as mafia. As a mafiat his whole life is easier if he looks town and yet can't accept the masonry as legitimate. He goes to all these lengths and ultimately dismisses them, which really comes across to me as trying to figure things out, and not manufactured.

 

[Evil Eye]

@Praxis: Have you been informed of any changes on N3?

@X1: What's the exact role name you were given for me? Also do you merely get rolenames, or character name and rolename?

 

[Overswarm]

He targeted Seph.

Also, OS you told me to recruit Praxis yesterday. Care to give a reason for that now?

I like Praxis and can understand his thought process if I can trust it.

Also, he lived past N1.


@EE

will wait for your claim after X1 answers your question

 

[Praxis]

Sorry guys, catching up...the game I'm running in the BRoom exploded. 0_o
I disagree with a mass roleclaim. I wish to speak with Tandora tonight, as I have an interesting idea. Feel free to lynch me for not cooperating, but please do it tomorrow.

@ EE, I have been informed that I have been masoned with Tandora and can speak to her during the Night.

 

[Evil Eye]

Is there a reason you couldn't work toward implementing it now? Or discuss it? Especially considering there's a good chance of you dying N4.

 

[Praxis]

I would be perfectly content with dying N4.

X1 is today's play.
Vote: X1

 

[Praxis]

Actually, fine with an X1 or Swords lynch.

 

[Praxis]

Having a bit of confusion on the X1/EE thing.

EE is claiming Burglar/Mason Recruiter but X1 says he's VT?

 

[Evil Eye]

................no...... that's what Tandora ........ claimed.........

...

I don't even.

 

[Evil Eye]

X1 said that I have no special proactive abilities. I confirmed this. OS and I then discussed Tandora's claim as The Burglar/the mason recruiter from Spidey for a while.

This game man, sometimes.

 

[Praxis]

OHHH.
My bad, sorry.
I ctrl-F'd burglar on the previous page and didn't see anything and was confused.

 

[X1-12]

@Praxis: Have you been informed of any changes on N3?

@X1: What's the exact role name you were given for me? Also do you merely get rolenames, or character name and rolename?

The three results I got were Firefighter, Arsonist, No abilities. I think this is to stop my role being too broken it returns no abilities instead of something like Vanilla or Goon.

@OS: Are we gonna get an order for massclaiming? if so should we vote on who we want if from first?

 

[Overswarm]

EE is first.


And we're going to mass claim today. There is no "secret plan" that is worthwhile given the information we have. We have a Doc AND a watcher. Odds of them both being scum ~0. If need be, we can protect and watch someone if they are some omega role that is important for some failproof plan. Na mean?

We're investigating.

 

[Praxis]

OS, me claiming would be anti-town. I will not claim.

I recognize your thought process and I realize this will frustrate you, but there are certain things you are overlooking that you have no knowledge of and I do. Trust me when I say that me not claiming is better for town. You think there is no worthwhile secret plan, but that is because you are not privy to the information I have.

 

[Overswarm]

vote Praxis

 

[Praxis]

Expected.
Sorry, OS.

 

[Overswarm]

"I know something you don't and it's important no one else knows about it!"

News Flash:

If there's an indie or a scum player that has a specific role and knows there is a counter role out there you just announced your existence to them.

Claim, or you're the play for today. We're not taking chances, and you're life isn't as valuable as town's victory.

 

[Praxis]

I know exactly what I'm doing.
I know it's difficult for you to accept that someone else in this game might be competent, but trust me on this.

 

[Tandora]

OS, you KNOW Praxis isn't mafia because I survived the recruit attempt. I thought the original plan was to go for Swords today if we got through the night without town winning.

 

[Overswarm]

OS, you KNOW Praxis isn't mafia because I survived the recruit attempt. I thought the original plan was to go for Swords today if we got through the night without town winning.

I am relatively sure Praxis is not mafia.

I am not sure in the slightest that he isn't part of a cult.

By his very argument, he needs to claim. If there are things that are important that town does not know, they need to know them, and know them now. Otherwise, I'm fine lynching Praxis to figure it out.

 

[Praxis]

Town does not need to know what I know. That's terrible logic, OS. Scum will also know.

We're better off following the plan ignoring my role. Just assume I'm useless or VT and let me handle my own details, and I promise that it cannot hurt town. I'll explain everything to Tandora toNight, including what my role is.

 

[Overswarm]

No thanks.

Praxis is the play for toDay.

 

[Praxis]

I'm just going to let you pout, OS.

I'm confirmed town, and you're asking me to do something that I know will hurt town.

Lynch me tomorrow if you'd like. My ability will help town toNight (the longer I live, the better, but if you don't trust me enough, at least I can significantly help toNight).

I'm leaving it at that.

 

[Praxis]

And this isn't Zen's self-preservation "I'm not following this plan" crap. You'll be happy with me toMorrow, I suspect. Even happier the day after.

 

[Overswarm]

I'm just going to let you pout, OS.

I'm confirmed town, and you're asking me to do something that I know will hurt town.

Lynch me tomorrow if you'd like. My ability will help town toNight (the longer I live, the better, but if you don't trust me enough, at least I can significantly help toNight).

I'm leaving it at that.

Yeah, no. If your ability is that great, we'd have the doc protect you or the watcher watch you.

There is literally 0 reasons as to why we would listen to you. If your ability is super awesome pro-town, town will decide how it is used. Not you. If you deserve to live because of your ability, you'll be protected.

We know is that it is unlikely that you have a killing ability in your group. We know you claim to have a powerful ability.

We don't know what that is, and the possibility of you being converted into an anti-town faction is there. No amount of secrecy is going to help town at this point. None.

It's full claim time, unless you think your ability is so powerful that scum would ignore a doctor, watcher, and mason recruiter.

 

[Praxis]

There is a reason, and if I tell you, you'll facepalm and go "ooooh, my bad".
Get off your ego trip.
Forget about me, let the doc protect the watcher and watcher protect Tandora.

 

[Praxis]

Lynch Swords, Macman, or X1 today. Zen protect Seph, Seph watch Tandora. Tandora recruits one we didn't lynch. I will roleclaim as soon as the day begins toMorrow.

Is Lionel Luthor even in this game still?

 

[Evil Eye]

@OS: Remember when you were all secretive-like in Bioware? There were two important possibilities that worried me: 1) OS is a yak or some other possibly-oneshot proscum PR that hasn't used his ability yet; 2) OS is town and being secretive because it helps the town.

By the end of D3, I felt certain it was scenario #2. I see a similar dilemma here, but ultimately, as with Bioware, I don't think I see some kind of magic win being pulled out of the mafia's ***. At least, not one that is cemented by not making Praxis claim, nor one that is ruined by making him claim. I think you're overreacting a bit, here.

You said you're still worried about a cult -- I thought you'd mostly dismissed that notion earlier for balance reasons?

Also, why am I the first to claim? I'm not bothered by it, but I was hoping to see if someone else claims my role; furthermore, I believe frozenflame has flipped as a goon, so X1's investigation drastically decreases the chances of my being mafia. The only passive mafia PR I can think of is the godfather which, I admit, would be perfect for me as mafia in this scenario, but in a KiKi game you can bet your *** I'd have a great safeclaim, anyway. Don't really see the advantage in making me claim first when we still have some especially severe question marks.


Random Talking Point #1: In the postgame comments I quoted above, I noted that there were several interesting exceptions to The Burglar's masoning. Might be worth mentioning them, as there could be similar loopholes in this game -- hell, probably are. Mysterio (the mafia lawyer/framer) could be recruited into the masonry but would retain his mafia alignment. The Sandman (mafia godfather), Carnage (indy SK), Bullseye (Mafia Hitman), and The Spot (mafia bus driver) would all kill him in the recruiting attempt. The Rhino (indy jester) could be recruited and would become a townie, while The Kingpin (indy politician) could be recruited into the masonry, but would retain his indy alignment and wincon.

 

[Evil Eye]

Before someone asks, there was going to be a random talking point #2, but I remembered something that made it obsolete, heh.

 

[Praxis]

You don't have to trust me, but Evil Eye doesn't need to claim. He will be cleared or exposed as scum next turn.

That said, if town wishes not to trust me, I won't argue against his claiming as I don't think it hurts us.

 

[Tandora]

Fact - Mentos was recruited by me
Fact - Praxis was recruited by me
Fact - Mentos died and flipped as town
Fact - I didn't die when I recruited Praxis
Fact - Gheb flipped as independent when he died.

Conclusion - It is unlikely that there are two independent factions, thus Praxis is town.

We've got a good combination already. We shouldn't change it.

 

[Praxis]

Overswarm knows I'm town, Tandora, he's just mad at me for undermining him.

Is Overswarm actually cleared? Considering we've had a town roleblocker and scum Gaston (respectively traditional scum and town roles) flip, a scum Firefighter is not out of the question. Regardless, I think OS is town from meta, and have a way to clear him as well which I will explain to Tandora toNight.