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MonkeyArms

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MrCheeseburger7
Doesn't the doc lack recovery aswell...? Just... that he's far slower, heavier, and can be juggled easier, takes longer, and has barely results in actual tournaments? I mean like event tournaments.

But yeah. I'll hold off from the rest of the list, and just... let it be We'll get our list sooner or later by the backroomers.
I'd argue that, aside from running speed, Doc is actually faster than diddy and has a much better recovery (being that it isn't super obvious and safe to mix up). Plus, He has much more landing options than Diddy. BTW, where I'm from Doc gets results.
 
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Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
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I'd argue that, aside from running speed, Doc is actually faster than diddy and has a much better recovery (being that it isn't super obvious and safe to mix up). Plus, He has much more landing options than Diddy. BTW, where I'm from Doc gets results.
Results are certainly nice and are valid, but sometimes they aren't everything. The #1 player in BC is a DDD main, and I think DDD is still low tier. I think Doc is a bottom mid tier myself with fantastic frame data and killig, but recovery is really detrimental and lacks movement, also suffers from Mario almost being a straight upgrade.

I DO love Doc in customs though and they solve his recovery issue and give him a better projectile while is huge and makes him higher mid for me in that environment.
 

MonkeyArms

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MrCheeseburger7
It doesn't really matter to much. Anywhere B-tier and higher is basically viable.
And C-tiers can win some locals.
I can't see anything happening with D-tiers outside of doubles though.
 

G. Stache

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 21, 2015
Messages
283
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New England
Hm, I'm not a fan of criticism towards tier lists, personally. People have their own opinions and I can respect that (except for the radical puff mains who think Puff goes even with sheik...I have to draw the lines somewhere). But I do want to ask: why do you think Yoshi is S tier? Genuinely curious.

Anyways, since I've gotten a WiiU along with smash for it recently, I've actually met decent players on FG and it's actually been kinda fun. BUT...I've been thinking. If you lot want my friend codes, PM me later today once I'm back from exams and we could play each other from time to time (around noonish is when usually get back from exams. Also, does this count as advertising, because I don't want to step on any rules).
 
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MonkeyArms

Smash Ace
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MrCheeseburger7
Hm, I'm not a fan of criticism towards tier lists, personally. People have their own opinions and I can respect that (except for the radical puff mains who think Puff goes even with sheik...I have to draw the lines somewhere). But I do want to ask: why do you think Yoshi is S tier? Genuinely curious.

Anyways, since I've gotten a WiiU along with smash for it recently, I've actually met decent players on FG and it's actually been kinda fun. BUT...I've been thinking. If you lot want my friend codes, PM me later today once I'm back from exams and we could play each other from time to time (around noonish is when usually get back from exams. Also, does this count as advertising, because I don't want to step on any rules).
Because he has no bad matchups. Last time I saw the match up chart in the Yoshi section it was laughably bad. Doesn't seem so bad now but the point about Yoshi is he has ridiculous combos, a ridiculous nuetral, a ridiculous camping game, a great recovery, and multiple options for every situation. His down throw is basically always a 50 50, and his command grab is by far one of the best in the game.
 
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Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
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So I know this is an older topic but merits discussion, and I feel it is pivotal to Luigi placing outside of top 8: how the heck do you jumpless cyclone? I can't. I know, mash the button 12/sec and that is probably the hardest technique to perform in the game. But a few people can do it. Concon, Boss, ...maybe MonkeyArms MonkeyArms ?

Actually, like this post only if you CAN do it, I want a gist on how many people can or if the list is just that small. Furthermore, to anyone who can, please post your tips.

Really, Luigi's jumpless cyclone will shave many stocks through gimps, and save many stocks to recover.

I almost feel annoyed at how my Luigi feels stagnant (literally) without this important tech.
 

LordTakeo

Master of Mediocre
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So I know this is an older topic but merits discussion, and I feel it is pivotal to Luigi placing outside of top 8: how the heck do you jumpless cyclone? I can't. I know, mash the button 12/sec and that is probably the hardest technique to perform in the game. But a few people can do it. Concon, Boss, ...maybe MonkeyArms MonkeyArms ?

Actually, like this post only if you CAN do it, I want a gist on how many people can or if the list is just that small. Furthermore, to anyone who can, please post your tips.

Really, Luigi's jumpless cyclone will shave many stocks through gimps, and save many stocks to recover.

I almost feel annoyed at how my Luigi feels stagnant (literally) without this important tech.
If we would stop counting difficulty ofsome techs in, then Shulk with his lag cancel invincibility frames MALLC be pretty ****ing monster.
Just.. kinda sad even pulling it off once is hard, I still only can do it with Jump monado.
... before I slide off the topic, yeah. It's extremely hard to do, without giving up over control of your controler to focus only on that.
 
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FUEGO!

Smash Journeyman
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MontyRattata
So I know this is an older topic but merits discussion, and I feel it is pivotal to Luigi placing outside of top 8: how the heck do you jumpless cyclone? I can't. I know, mash the button 12/sec and that is probably the hardest technique to perform in the game. But a few people can do it. Concon, Boss, ...maybe MonkeyArms MonkeyArms ?

Actually, like this post only if you CAN do it, I want a gist on how many people can or if the list is just that small. Furthermore, to anyone who can, please post your tips.

Really, Luigi's jumpless cyclone will shave many stocks through gimps, and save many stocks to recover.

I almost feel annoyed at how my Luigi feels stagnant (literally) without this important tech.
MonkeyArms can sorta do it, But you're gonna tell me you're gonna whoop my ass like that and then say you can't do a Luigi tech I still CAN do??! We need to Lab together.
 

Yonder

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MonkeyArms can sorta do it, But you're gonna tell me you're gonna whoop my *** like that and then say you can't do a Luigi tech I still CAN do??! We need to Lab together.
Woah, you can pull off jumpless cyclones too? Crazy, gotta show me some stuff with that. I feel I got a good enough understanding of everything else but the jumpless cyclone...and perfect pivots but that's 2nd on my list.
 

MonkeyArms

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MrCheeseburger7
So I know this is an older topic but merits discussion, and I feel it is pivotal to Luigi placing outside of top 8: how the heck do you jumpless cyclone? I can't. I know, mash the button 12/sec and that is probably the hardest technique to perform in the game. But a few people can do it. Concon, Boss, ...maybe MonkeyArms MonkeyArms ?

Actually, like this post only if you CAN do it, I want a gist on how many people can or if the list is just that small. Furthermore, to anyone who can, please post your tips.

Really, Luigi's jumpless cyclone will shave many stocks through gimps, and save many stocks to recover.

I almost feel annoyed at how my Luigi feels stagnant (literally) without this important tech.
I can almost always gain horizortal recovery with it, I gimp with it about 2/5ths of the time (the hitlag glitch messes me up a bit), and I can gain vertical recovery when I'm REALLY FEELING IT. (about 1/10th of the time but still.)

The only reason I can do it is a history with button mashing in several games.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Good luck to all of the Luigis attending Genesis! Things have changed since last year... I hope that Luigi can pull through.
 

RIP|Merrick

Absolute Trash
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I just had to record and post this. I've seen variations of this, but I am very unsure of exactly what's going on. Is it the windbox of Charizard's down tilt doing this, or something completely unrelated? Help me out green fam.
 

FUEGO!

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Good luck to all of the Luigis attending Genesis! Things have changed since last year... I hope that Luigi can pull through.
aaaaand ConCon is in losers...Damnit. I love seeing nerf'd characters win anyway, like it just would've been nice.
 

MonkeyArms

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I just had to record and post this. I've seen variations of this, but I am very unsure of exactly what's going on. Is it the windbox of Charizard's down tilt doing this, or something completely unrelated? Help me out green fam.
Definitely charizards down tilt.
As for REAL new tech, I have discovered in competitive matches that you can consistently stop you vertical momentum with a fireball causing luigis landbox to collide with the ground and edge cancel after a jump from a certain angle. Doesn't seem to be to helpful, but its definitely new to me.
 

TriTails

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Mr. CC beat out a Samus of 8th rank of his region's PR.

2-0'd Vinnie's Sheik.

Made it to Top 32 after being sent in losers in the end of round 1 of pools (he lost to a Ness main, Ribs. But he beat him in losers)

With nerfed Luigi.

RIP my doubts. Never doubting this character again.

Definitely charizards down tilt.
As for REAL new tech, I have discovered in competitive matches that you can consistently stop you vertical momentum with a fireball causing luigis landbox to collide with the ground and edge cancel after a jump from a certain angle. Doesn't seem to be to helpful, but its definitely new to me.
So you can snap to the ledge without waiting for the double jump's many frames before you can snap to end? Seems pretty great to me.

Double jumps don't snap to the ledge, it'll be nice to have it snap as early as possible.


I just had to record and post this. I've seen variations of this, but I am very unsure of exactly what's going on. Is it the windbox of Charizard's down tilt doing this, or something completely unrelated? Help me out green fam.
It's the windbox. I've had tons of this occurrence with Mac's F-smash (which also has a windbox). Persumably, Luigi's traction made it so that he slides extremely far.
 
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MonkeyArms

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So you can snap to the ledge without waiting for the double jump's many frames before you can snap to end? Seems pretty great to me.

Double jumps don't snap to the ledge, it'll be nice to have it snap as early as possible.
No its similar to an instant ledge getup where the characters model hits the floor so he/she lands instead of carrying vertical momentum.
But every time I did it it was at an angle where it really isn't of much use. since luigi is floaty, has a high jump, and poor air speed, this tech is pretty limited I'd assume.
 

G. Stache

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Can I be honest? Is it just me or do the notable Luigi players (ConCon, Luigi Player and Boss) make ZSS look harder than Sheik.

Looking at Luigi player, he recently won a big tourney in Germany (which is a country that is no slouch when it comes to smash)...over a sheik. This either means that he beat the sheik, or he didn't have to face it. Not sure which option, but assuming the former, that's one case of a high level Luigi beating a sheik of presumably the same level of skill.

Now we have the infamous set of Vinnie and ConCon. The one and only 2-0 scenario. Now, I don't know what Vinnie's mental health was like during the tournament. BUT, a 2-0 against one of the best sheiks cannot be ignored. Then we get to Marss knocking ConCon out. Looked very difficult (especially when ConCon CP'd Dreamland). Then we have Boss, who always seems to struggle with Bengal (though I don't know how well Boss holds up against a decent sheik, never saw one play Boss since I tend to watch Xanadu in bursts). I dunno, I'm just observing what I see. Do you guys think the top Luigi players are doing something that we aren't, or do you think it's just a mental thing for Boss/ConCon? Input is greatly appreciated.
 
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MonkeyArms

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Can I be honest? Is it just me or do the notable Luigi players (ConCon, Luigi Player and Boss) make ZSS look harder than Sheik.

Looking at Luigi player, he recently won a big tourney in Germany (which is a country that is no slouch when it comes to smash)...over a sheik. This either means that he beat the sheik, or he didn't have to face it. Not sure which option, but assuming the former, that's one case of a high level Luigi beating a sheik of presumably the same level of skill.

Now we have the infamous set of Vinnie and ConCon. The one and only 2-0 scenario. Now, I don't know what Vinnie's mental health was like during the tournament. BUT, a 2-0 against one of the best sheiks cannot be ignored. Then we get to Marss knocking ConCon out. Looked very difficult (especially when ConCon CP'd Dreamland). Then we have Boss, who always seems to struggle with Bengal (though I don't know how well Boss holds up against a decent sheik, never saw one play Boss since I tend to watch Xanadu in bursts). I dunno, I'm just observing what I see. Do you guys think the top Luigi players are doing something that we aren't, or do you think it's just a mental thing for Boss/ConCon? Input is greatly appreciated.
Anything ZSS can do to you, you can do to her. Not to mention Luigi should have plenty of counters to what she's good at.
The only problem with ZSS is your shield push, which should easily be negated by a spot dodge or your own spacing.
ZSS can have good combos but a simple counter to that is picking stages that don't have many platforms. What's she going to do? The only reason ZSS is decent is because of her early grab kills, which only come with platforms against Luigi. His floatiness should make it to high for ZSS to get early up b kills with out platforms, even THEN its pretty easy to DI out of.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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You know how Luigi has an awful air speed value, and how that's a problem with his recovery? Well, I did make a customization in an attempt to get past that issue.



This customization improves Luigi's air mobility to a better level (0.917725). In fact, the air mobility is improved to a point where even if you miss with Green Missile or its custom variants, you can easily get back onto the battlefield; of course, you would have to use Green Missile while on the left or right side of the arena to ensure a safe recovery.
 

jigglesthepuff

Smash Apprentice
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think about how much more potential luigi could have with a higher air speed and a lower shorthop. you could probably perform ken combos
 

AlvisCPU

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Hey guys. So I'm a Shulk player looking at picking up a secondary to handle the matchups I have a bad time with - generally the quick guys like Falcon, ZSS, Greninja. It would be nice to play someone who's frame data isn't horrendous, and I like Luigi. I think he could be what I'm after.

Obviously you can't paint all matchups as the same, but in general, how do you guys think Luigi does against fast characters? I'm thinking that on one hand, his movement is slow, but as far as I'm aware he has the frame data to contend.

If I decide to run with him, are there any worthwhile resources around for me to look at? I'm not really sure what follows into what, what good approaches are... stuff like that. If there's anything that's already done the hard yards it'd be immensely helpful. If not, then to Training Mode it is :p
 

LordTakeo

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Hey guys. So I'm a Shulk player looking at picking up a secondary to handle the matchups I have a bad time with - generally the quick guys like Falcon, ZSS, Greninja. It would be nice to play someone who's frame data isn't horrendous, and I like Luigi. I think he could be what I'm after.

Obviously you can't paint all matchups as the same, but in general, how do you guys think Luigi does against fast characters? I'm thinking that on one hand, his movement is slow, but as far as I'm aware he has the frame data to contend.

If I decide to run with him, are there any worthwhile resources around for me to look at? I'm not really sure what follows into what, what good approaches are... stuff like that. If there's anything that's already done the hard yards it'd be immensely helpful. If not, then to Training Mode it is :p
I'd reccomend mapping one of your buttons into an additional B button. Because you'll likely mash alot.
#hurricane4life
 

ThunderSt0rm

Smash Champion
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So I know this is an older topic but merits discussion, and I feel it is pivotal to Luigi placing outside of top 8: how the heck do you jumpless cyclone? I can't. I know, mash the button 12/sec and that is probably the hardest technique to perform in the game. But a few people can do it. Concon, Boss, ...maybe MonkeyArms MonkeyArms ?

Actually, like this post only if you CAN do it, I want a gist on how many people can or if the list is just that small. Furthermore, to anyone who can, please post your tips.

Really, Luigi's jumpless cyclone will shave many stocks through gimps, and save many stocks to recover.

I almost feel annoyed at how my Luigi feels stagnant (literally) without this important tech.
Just gotta keep practicing and attempting to get the jumpless rise. I'm finally able to get a very nice rise near consistently now (compared to either a minimal rise or non-frequent high rises before) and that happened because I'd just try getting the rise out of boredom while in training.

When you tense your arm up to vibrate your finger over the B button, try focusing your efforts into narrowing the intervals of button presses while tensing, if that makes sense. Just tensing your arm up super hard isn't going to necessarily mean faster inputs and you'll just be stressing yourself for no reason. Find a rhythm to go with while you tense your arm up so that you get fast, even vibrations for the inputs and once you start seeing some form of result with better rising, focus on the pattern/rhythm you had your arm in when it happened to have your muscle memory set in.

Can I be honest? Is it just me or do the notable Luigi players (ConCon, Luigi Player and Boss) make ZSS look harder than Sheik.

Looking at Luigi player, he recently won a big tourney in Germany (which is a country that is no slouch when it comes to smash)...over a sheik. This either means that he beat the sheik, or he didn't have to face it. Not sure which option, but assuming the former, that's one case of a high level Luigi beating a sheik of presumably the same level of skill.

Now we have the infamous set of Vinnie and ConCon. The one and only 2-0 scenario. Now, I don't know what Vinnie's mental health was like during the tournament. BUT, a 2-0 against one of the best sheiks cannot be ignored. Then we get to Marss knocking ConCon out. Looked very difficult (especially when ConCon CP'd Dreamland). Then we have Boss, who always seems to struggle with Bengal (though I don't know how well Boss holds up against a decent sheik, never saw one play Boss since I tend to watch Xanadu in bursts). I dunno, I'm just observing what I see. Do you guys think the top Luigi players are doing something that we aren't, or do you think it's just a mental thing for Boss/ConCon? Input is greatly appreciated.
I label sheik as "honest" in the sense that her amazing frame data, speed, and range are mitigated by her lack of strong kill options and lack of damage output despite being able to keep an extensive combo up. Because of this, some characters that struggle against her are able to play the damage trade game where you will eventually take the lead through trades because your damage output is higher than hers.

Zss on the other hand, is not honest. She has amazing frame data, speed, range, arguably stronger zone game, and can kill you as early as something like 30% (not an exact number) from a grab. Not to mention having kill confirms at high percents and easier kill options than sheik. The other thing zss has over sheik is strong shield stun options. Moves like her nair can be extremely hard to punish ever since they implemented shield stun in one of the updates, and even after powershielding it can be tricky to punish because of the visual stun the game goes through.

A character like luigi who already had issues with shielding moves now suffers even more for trying to shield against zss and powershielding her faster options can be difficult to do consistently. Hell, you could end up dying because you tried to powershield a nair but did it too late due to zss' insane ability to convert into combos.

Now zss does suffer for her low weight and high-risk high-reward style. If she misses a grab on luigi then she can die as early as around 50% from upb. Against a top/high level zss, the problem is finding the chances to get punishes like that as she can be relatively safe with most of her options. Those times where she does whiff or does something unsafe is when you have to maximize your punish because you won't get many opportunities.

I'd reccomend mapping one of your buttons into an additional B button. Because you'll likely mash alot.
#hurricane4life
Mapping multiple buttons or d-pad/c-stick to special doesn't help with mashing for cyclone. If 2 buttons are pressed at the same time (even if they are the same option), smash 4's engine only recognizes one of the inputs. However, mapping special to an additional button can help if you want easier access to mashing after a different input like how you have it set to Y instead of having to go to the B button after pressing X.
 

AlvisCPU

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I remember having multiple special buttons set to flip through Shulk's Arts really quick - it didn't work out too well because of ^that. You'd need quite a bit of practise to time your multipresses right. Cyclone is gonna be quite a lot of practise to get the height.

If I get a feel for how he works I might bring him out next tournament. Trial by fire. Even not knowing Luigi with any depth, I like to think I know my fundamentals so I might surprise myself.
 

FUEGO!

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So, after lots of soul searching after the patch, I think I'm back. Tonight, I was able to back to back 3 stock (our state uses 3 stocks) the 5th best player in my state with my Luigi I haven't played in months but I couldn't even win once with any of the other characters I had been putting time into...Not that I should be making character decisions after one night of friendlies, but I think I'm just sick of searching for something else at this point. I learned the game mechanics with Luigi, so my habits with him keep translating into other characters and it's getting rather annoying.

On top of that, my state's rep of the character has gone down significantly, with one of our top ranked Luigi's just flat out quitting the game, another who frequently places well is dropping him for Diddy Kong randomly, and you guys already know MonkeyArms MonkeyArms . He's the only one left getting results with Luigi in my state, even thought it's now his secondary to his Doctor Mario.

I dunno, I guess me seeing the opportunity to claim "Best solo Luigi man" in my state is a reason why I want to try, but judging by my play tonight, I think right now might be my best shot, so why not?

Good to be back!:4luigi:
 

LordTakeo

Master of Mediocre
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In grab range
So, after lots of soul searching after the patch, I think I'm back. Tonight, I was able to back to back 3 stock (our state uses 3 stocks) the 5th best player in my state with my Luigi I haven't played in months but I couldn't even win once with any of the other characters I had been putting time into...Not that I should be making character decisions after one night of friendlies, but I think I'm just sick of searching for something else at this point. I learned the game mechanics with Luigi, so my habits with him keep translating into other characters and it's getting rather annoying.

On top of that, my state's rep of the character has gone down significantly, with one of our top ranked Luigi's just flat out quitting the game, another who frequently places well is dropping him for Diddy Kong randomly, and you guys already know MonkeyArms MonkeyArms . He's the only one left getting results with Luigi in my state, even thought it's now his secondary to his Doctor Mario.

I dunno, I guess me seeing the opportunity to claim "Best solo Luigi man" in my state is a reason why I want to try, but judging by my play tonight, I think right now might be my best shot, so why not?

Good to be back!:4luigi:
Hey hey. It's still possible that we get an patch that buffs him.
There are still 1 & 1/2 patches ahead of us.
1 being bayonetta, and the 1/2 being the balance patch, if corrin and bayo seem too strong/too weak.
 

MonkeyArms

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So, after lots of soul searching after the patch, I think I'm back. Tonight, I was able to back to back 3 stock (our state uses 3 stocks) the 5th best player in my state with my Luigi I haven't played in months but I couldn't even win once with any of the other characters I had been putting time into...Not that I should be making character decisions after one night of friendlies, but I think I'm just sick of searching for something else at this point. I learned the game mechanics with Luigi, so my habits with him keep translating into other characters and it's getting rather annoying.

On top of that, my state's rep of the character has gone down significantly, with one of our top ranked Luigi's just flat out quitting the game, another who frequently places well is dropping him for Diddy Kong randomly, and you guys already know MonkeyArms MonkeyArms . He's the only one left getting results with Luigi in my state, even thought it's now his secondary to his Doctor Mario.

I dunno, I guess me seeing the opportunity to claim "Best solo Luigi man" in my state is a reason why I want to try, but judging by my play tonight, I think right now might be my best shot, so why not?

Good to be back!:4luigi:
Secondary? SECONDARY?
-Saturday before yesterday
-Friday before that saturday
http://smashsociety.challonge.com/tkosmashville3
AN ENTIRE SOLO LUIGI BRACKET RUN.
.....And you say he's a secondary?
I CANNOT do good at high level play with my secondaries.
 

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FUEGO!

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MontyRattata
Secondary? SECONDARY?
-Saturday before yesterday
-Friday before that saturday
http://smashsociety.challonge.com/tkosmashville3
AN ENTIRE SOLO LUIGI BRACKET RUN.
.....And you say he's a secondary?
I CANNOT do good at high level play with my secondaries.
Literally thr ONLY reason I said that is because they made Luigi your secondary on the PR picture thing, and I figured they asked you permission to do that. And I watched those Smashville sets live, I was extremely impressed with your play that day!
 
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AlmostDoug

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Are your Skype and/or Discord groups still active, or at least active enough to be capable of being helpful? I'd be interested in joining both, if so, but don't wanna waste my time.
 

FUEGO!

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MontyRattata
Are your Skype and/or Discord groups still active, or at least active enough to be capable of being helpful? I'd be interested in joining both, if so, but don't wanna waste my time.
Con Con and Poke are active in it, so I'd say yes.
 

7NATOR

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
3,945
I got one question for you guys

Would you replace Luigi With a Call of Duty Solider

Of Course i'll say no

what do you guys think
 

Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
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Hey green superstars,

I felt like ballparking a matchup sheet made in a couple of minutes; feel free to critique and/or make your own
Screenshot_2016-02-19-22-31-47.png


As my views reflected comparing this to my M2 one, I gave him mmore greater advantages overall, but more greater disadvantages. Interesting, I feel Luigi is more stable in most matchups than M2 but can't shut anyone down hard bar Ganondorf while M2 can demolish a couple of characters (Duck Hunt, Samus, Mii Gunner) hmm...
 

MonkeyArms

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
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MrCheeseburger7
Y Yonder , I'd hate to call you out but that matchup chart is off by miles.
Ganon is just...no.
Mario definitely does better against Luigi than Doc, almost to the point its not arguable. Luigi bodies Doc.
Sheik is an overexagerrated matchup that isn't even that bad.
Rosalina beats Luigi to the point its basically unwinnable.
Donkey Kong definitely beats Luigi, he just has to many tools that beat his.
Luigi sucks against Lucario, a character that racks up damage against a character that needs it.
Mii Swordfighter, Falco, Palutena, and C.F. all get bopped.

And I shouldn't even need to talk about Little Mac.
 

Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Canada,BC
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Y Yonder , I'd hate to call you out but that matchup chart is off by miles.
Ganon is just...no.
Mario definitely does better against Luigi than Doc, almost to the point its not arguable. Luigi bodies Doc.
Sheik is an overexagerrated matchup that isn't even that bad.
Rosalina beats Luigi to the point its basically unwinnable.
Donkey Kong definitely beats Luigi, he just has to many tools that beat his.
Luigi sucks against Lucario, a character that racks up damage against a character that needs it.
Mii Swordfighter, Falco, Palutena, and C.F. all get bopped.

And I shouldn't even need to talk about Little Mac.
I knew you wouldn't like my chart. You are the most radical Luigi player here...but it's fun to debate.

from day 1 to still, I firmly believe Ganondorf is Luigi's best matchup. I know you're the only Luigi here that thinks Luigi loses badly to him but I just don't see it. Luigi combos him badly, better frame data, Ganondorf has no way past fireballs at all, gets dair or cyclone spiked at low percents. His grab range is horrible, hss slower moving, and barely anymore range than Luigi sides a few attacks. The only thing Ganondorf has on Luigi is edgeguarding and f tilt.

Don't think so about Doc, it's universally agreed on Mario loses to Luigi. Doc at least has a bit of extra kick to kill earliee than Luigi, to which Mario cannot.

When the only way to survive against Sheik is to power shield everything, it is. How can Luigi realistically touch a good Sheik who optimizes fair chains and needles with a 50/50 kill confirm at 100%? Granted there's Concon vs Vinnie which sheds a bit of hope...

Meant to put DK as 45:55 DKs favor, I think he doesn't get wrecked though. DKs disadvantage is terrible, although his longer limbs, speed, and jabbing fireballs away along with a kill confirm makes him formidable. I'd know, I got wrecked by the best one in BC.

Dunno about Palu and Mii Sword, but Falco's lazer is surprisingly effective against such a slow character, reflector is better for spacing, and his moves aren't all broken by nair unlike Fox. You also have to be weary of a side b spike.

Falcon is even basically. Luigi nair on his jab breaks it, he dair spikes him and combos him, but Falcon can actually avoid fireballs unlike Ganondorf with sheer speed, and Luigi cannot answer to uair at all.

Please explain about Mac? Because a good one does beat up Luigi with super armor, but he is still susceptible to fireballs and edgeguards, and his poor grabs don't help along with Luigis grab setting up well for gimps. It's definitely winnable, and no high play evidence suggests it isn't yet.
 

G. Stache

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 21, 2015
Messages
283
Location
New England
Hey green superstars,

I felt like ballparking a matchup sheet made in a couple of minutes; feel free to critique and/or make your ownView attachment 97877

As my views reflected comparing this to my M2 one, I gave him mmore greater advantages overall, but more greater disadvantages. Interesting, I feel Luigi is more stable in most matchups than M2 but can't shut anyone down hard bar Ganondorf while M2 can demolish a couple of characters (Duck Hunt, Samus, Mii Gunner) hmm...
I can agree with a good chunk with this MU chart. I don't expect you're opinions to match mine clearly, but hey. I can just add my opinion to a few of the characters listed. Feel free to disagree.

Sheik: In theory she destroys us hard. Better neutral and edge guarding really kill us in the land of theory. But keep in mind: in theory Mario gets bodied by sheik too. But results at high level play has shown the Mario - Sheik MU to be even, while showing the Luigi - Sheik to be around -1. Not terrible, but certainly an uphill struggle.

Samus: I'm adamant we win this MU. Not by much (close to even) but when the only thing we fear about Samus is charge shot (we can answer just about any other thing she has in her arsenal) and she has to fear the fact that getting in with Luigi against Samus is easy bake combo time and very good edge guarding: I don't think she actually holds an edge. A good CP for people who don't know the MU. But to those who do, Samus seems definitely in our favor.

Falco: gonna be level with you here: a lot of Falco mains think that Luigi ****s on Falco. After my personal experience, I'm going to agree with the Falco mains. Falco has possibly the worst projectile in the game, a laggy reflector, a dysfunctional jab and he wants to get in and use his good boxing game...except Luigi beats him in that too. I wouldn't go too far and call it any more than 65:35 (and that's at the very best) because Falco's offstage game proves to be among the best in the game. Something Luigi hates to hear. The feelings mutual though. If Falco somehow survives a cyclone spike, that Falco main deserves some kind of award.

Also disagree with Zelda. She's just...a very bad character and I don't feel that she has anything going for her in any MU except lightning kicks that are hard to hit (sourspots are punishable on hit too, to make matters worse). A surprisingly good Dair, and a ladder combo...thing with her up b. Those three things sound fine...except it pales in comparison to what just about any other character can do with her. Slow normals, horrid mobility and bad specials just don't make a functional neutral. Neither does it make a good advantage state or a good disadvantage state. Tbh, never saw how Zelda had any decent MUs (except for jiggly, who I think is even worse). Maybe there's something to the character I don't know about.

Again, just my take on a few of the characters listed. Take it as you will. I'll probably show my own later today if I can remember to. I think mine would look a bit more...optimistic when looking at certain characters that you listed. Though, I am surprised you see Ryu as a winning MU. I'm interested in why you see it as a good MU and not an even one.
 
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