Data Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread

[Yonder]

Toon Link and Villager

 

[Deleted member]

Pac-Man and Pikachu

 

[WispBae]

Howdy there, other green Marios! The Doggy board is discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click on this picture of too scary for kids Luigi from Luigi's Mansion to go straight to the thread!

 

[Cypher94]

Has any got advice on the lucario matchup? Playing on a stage like FD they just retreat to the furthest end of the stage and just charge there aura ball ( don't know the name of the move) which really messes up my approach due to once it's charged to a certain amount it goes straight through my fireballs and will hit me as a punish, especially more now the ending lag on fireball has been increased. I just need some overal advice on this matchup

 

[Steelballray]

Has any got advice on the lucario matchup? Playing on a stage like FD they just retreat to the furthest end of the stage and just charge there aura ball ( don't know the name of the move) which really messes up my approach due to once it's charged to a certain amount it goes straight through my fireballs and will hit me as a punish, especially more now the ending lag on fireball has been increased. I just need some overal advice on this matchup

Hey, I've been playing Lucario since before I picked up Luigi and he was my first main too.

Lucario will have destructive powers if his aura is high. Smash attacks that can kill you at 30% if you're at the wrong side of the stage. Aura Sphere (that's what its called) is insane too and its size is HUGE so sometimes you think you air dodged through it but it will still hit. His up air and back air will kill you at pretty low percentages too if he have enough aura so thats something.

Thing is, Luigi's frame data is like, 3 times better than Lucario's, and I am not even exaggerating. All these strong attacks that he have are slow as hell and punishable just as much. I'll tell you how you should be playing this match up.

Step one is that you have to perfect your kill set ups. Lucario is strong as hell when his aura is high, so what do you do when his percentage is high? you kill him! Luigi has more guarnteed kill setups than any other character in the game. side smash is very fast, D-throw combos are all great and they grant you killing abilities where ever you're standing on the stage. UpB has been buffed and its 100% perfect to punish him if he land on the stage the wrong way after using his UpB. You have to perfect the D-throw to cyclone and be sure to use this method https://youtu.be/30fQtABJMzk to make sure he can't escape. just spend 30 minutes in training mode and then some FG matches to make sure you have it down. I would also suggest training on using UpB in general because Lucario has many punishable moves and its not hard at all to land an upB for every mistake he make.

Step two is working on your defensive and evasive options. do not air dodge stupidly. if you land when you're in the air dodge animation, you're just done for because that aura sphere is going to hit you right in the face, and with some aura in his pocket that will result in a sure death. Instead of air dodging meaninglessly, you gotta fast fall and shield immediately. dont try to sidestep because if his aura is high enough the ball will still hit you even if you sidestep it. You have to work on your perfect shielding abilities cause its the best method of advancing forward against a campy Lucario that Luigi has. Work on your advancing abilities and make sure you don't mess up while making a defensive choice. You can also use the speed boost that the cyclone gives you to fall on him if you're above him.

Step three is to obliterate him once you're in range. but BE CAREFUL OF HIS SIDE B. That move packs a serious punch but he has to be REALLY close to you for it to hit as the grab, (in that range, unless you done something laggy, you should be grabbing him instead anyways) otherwise he's shooting an aura blast that has tons of lag if it misses which means a free punish for you. Lucario doesnt have a single move that beats you when you're close, your nair beats most his aerials. Your jabs will always beat his and they're much faster. I can list the rest of his moves but in general he doesnt have any moves that should be able to beat you. And oh, many lucarios try to juggle with up throw and fair or uair strings. Always nair them out and fast fall to grab him.

Lucario isn't that hard to play against if you're careful. and for gods sake we are Luigi mains, we shouldnt be letting him live long enough to have all that much aura to begin with.

One more thing I'd like to point out is to not challenge his recovery unless you're sure of what youre doing, because its very fast and will almost result in a stage spike if you mess up. although if you can space your fairs well, you can get in some hits on him while hes trying to come back. Also, if hes directly down and you foresee him trying to UpB straight to the ledge, it can be fun to stage spike with a bair, so go for it.

I hope this proves to be helpful, and good luck.

 

[JesterJaded]

Could any Luigi mains give some advice on the neutral for the Lucas boards? We're discussing it here: http://smashboards.com/threads/phrygias-notebook-lucas-matchup-discussion.398030/page-3

 

[TriTails]

So... urgh. I just got lazy...

We still need nominations.

Lucas: 1
Zelda: 1
Diddy: 1
Peach: 1
TL: 1
Villager: 1
Pac-Man: 1
Pika: 1

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Villager and Pikachu

 

[miniada]

Imo, my opinion on match-ups, using the same format.

+3 (heavy advantage) : N/A
+2 (advantage) :
+1 (light advantage) :
0 (even) :
-1 (light disadvantage) :
-2 (disadvantage) :
-3 (heavy disadvantage) :

IDK: [Never versed one]

So yeah, some changes, ya'll might be wondering "Mega Man not his worst?!" Yeah...bad, but Sheik is worst based on countless matches against one of the best Sheiks, if not the best in BC. It's really, really bad. I'm one of the better Luigis in BC and I just don't win it unless I get a lucky smash kill. Should probably go into depth more in the matchup thread for Sheik...

Fox, Kirby, and Diddy lose hard to Luigi, based on experience. Again, one of the best Fox players in BC who I play a lot just cannot win vs my Luigi as I nair out of everything, crawl under lasers, and combo him hard along with fireballs gimping Fox' illusion and firefox being dair spike gimp food. Diddy and Kirby can't really approach Luigi with a good fireball to fair lame out strategy, from tourney experience [And Luigi with a nanner = best character in game]

Rob is underestimated in difficulty...but he IS beatable with certain practice and knowledge on applicable tools, just like all the other disadvantages! Each of these have their own weakness Luigi can exploit [TL: Easier to d throw to tornado than most, ROB: Fireballs can clank gyro + combo food if you manage to get in, Villager: Fireballs clank gyroid...idk, Mega Man: Easier to combo than most, fireballs clank all but charge shot and lemons]

Lucas is a new pain; lost to one in a tourney cause Luigi CANNOT get past PK fire. Splash damage knocks Luigi back if you use fireballs, unless Ness. And Zair. Ugh...could be -2 in the future.

Ryu is a nice +1 for Luigi, both have no range but Luigi has the better projectile and frame data, it's close though. I don't struggle with it though, anyways.

I don't see Samus as -1, people are overblowing the Larry vs Esam match. It's just not a well known matchup. Charge shot is the bane of Luigi's existance, fair and zair are annoying too, but missiles don't work and Samus can be combo and easily gimped. Time will tell more.

How does luigi beat

 

[DunnoBro]

How does luigi beat

Fireballs and fair/dair/nair to beat out spindash. And dash grabs/fireballs let luigi catch sonic's landings pretty consistently.

 

[miniada]

Fireballs and fair/dair/nair to beat out spindash. And dash grabs/fireballs let luigi catch sonic's landings pretty consistently.

Thanks man for the advice

 

[Deleted member]

How the hell do I fight Ness?
I always have trouble against this damn kid and I always get down throw -> triple fair'd.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I play a very anti-grab game vs Ness. My style is very jab oriented but against Ness it'e even more. Ness is a grab happy character so jabs and tilts work very well when he's trying to grab. Throw out single jabs to test him out and see what he's gonna do. A lot of times Ness players will use Nair similar to Luigi players. Always be on the lookout for Nair and bait it out when you can.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I vote for Peach MU discussion.

 

[champ21bell]

How do I fight Peach, Sonic, and Fox?

 

[Yonder]

I know the matchup thread per week thing is kind of dead...but Yoshi I'd like to discuss next. I lost twice in a tourney to the same Yoshi.

Oh, and Luigi rocks DDD and Kirby pretty good from tourney experience.

 

[Deleted member]

I know the matchup thread per week thing is kind of dead...but Yoshi I'd like to discuss next. I lost twice in a tourney to the same Yoshi.

Oh, and Luigi rocks DDD and Kirby pretty good from tourney experience.

Please talk about Yoshi, this matchup gives me nightmares now.
If you are off-stage, you are basically done. But... what do I do on-stage?

 

[Yonder]

The problem with Yoshi is that his air mobility is so fast, he just eats you alive in the air as you try to escape anything. On stage you can trade fireballs with eggs if you're willing to do that, since fireballs go straight and eggs have an arched trajectory. Luigi has a much better grab game fortunately and still eats Yoshi out of a grab well enough. Super armored DJ is a pain though. Yp, once you're offstage fair ends you. Simple as that. I hate that move. Recovery high I guess if you can. I think it's 55:45 Yoshi or even, it can be close...but I haven't beat him yet.

And ganondorf I'm almost positive is Luigi's best matchup in the game if you don't get hit personally [I defeated a really good BC Ganondorf without losing a stock in 2 games, he got pretty upset and started ranting to his buddy about "Luigi's nair is so stupid and fireballs don't let Ganondorf approach", I'd say 65:35 with no mistake. 60:40 though otherwise.

 

[TriTails]

I know the matchup thread per week thing is kind of dead...but Yoshi I'd like to discuss next. I lost twice in a tourney to the same Yoshi.

Oh, and Luigi rocks DDD and Kirby pretty good from tourney experience.

The no activity pretty much kills my motivation on continuing it.

And I simply cannot forgive myself for what I've done.

On Yoshi. B-air beats HEAVY armored DJ. And his mobility in the air is kinda nothing if he can't land a hit on us. Eggs loses to shield, but what I recommend here is actually not use Fireballs and focus on your shield button. Don't try to follow his retreating F-air or N-air. He'll leave you in the dust and hit you. F-air got some broken landing lag (Don't punish its landing. Not worth it). Instead, this is a good opportunity to apply pressure with Fireballs. But we kinda don't want to throw Fireballs in neutral as eggs can arc over them and hit our head in the process.

...I'm feeling so lost I let my thread die. But it's kinda discouraging when the discussions are fairly short for some MUs.

I honestly can't say anything anymore. Perhaps I shouldn't have taken this job in the first place...

I failed friggin' again.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

@ TriTails Whoa, that's pretty harsh. You should see how pathetic the Diddy boards have been for months. It's hard to keep a thread like this really active and its not really any one person's fault if it slows down.

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...1H6Xnh9tcnIDV7MFQ&sig2=LdStWt4OtdGHKiXYHQq2VQ we are discussing luigi so we could use some help

 

[PenguinFluff]

I know this thread is kind of dead, but I nominate Bowser Jr. and Link.

They can keep Luigi out pretty well and stop some of his momentum. I know it's probably MU inexperience on my side, but I want to know what other Luigi players think of those two.

 

[Pazx]

What makes Luigi vs Mario so good for Luigi?

 

[miniada]

What makes Luigi vs Mario so good for Luigi?

60:40 his options are all better than Mario's except for mobility and offstage but his down B is still a good edgeguard tool his nair is so fast he can't even land his up tilt or clash with it

 

[Pazx]

60:40 his options are all better than Mario's except for mobility and offstage but his down B is still a good edgeguard tool his nair is so fast he can't even land his up tilt or clash with it

I'm sorry dude but your post tells me next to nothing. What are "his options" and why are they "all better than Mario's"?

Tagging @ TriTails bc I know he thinks it's 60:40 but I'm looking for input from whoever.

 

[miniada]

H

I'm sorry dude but your post tells me next to nothing. What are "his options" and why are they "all better than Mario's"?

Tagging @ TriTails bc I know he thinks it's 60:40 but I'm looking for input from whoever.

Luigi has better combos combo breakers and kill power his nair is so fast mario can't do his d throw up tilt at all luigi has his down B to edgeguard him and marios only advantages are offstage and mobility

 

[sims796]

@ TriTails Whoa, that's pretty harsh. You should see how pathetic the Diddy boards have been for months. It's hard to keep a thread like this really active and its not really any one person's fault if it slows down.

I mean, don't we all like, need to post on that board ourselves? Unless you plan on conversa'in with yourself, I don't see how it's your failure and yours alone.

 

[TriTails]

Alright. No more bull****s on my side. I'm continuing my own thread, period.

Can't falter now...

I'm sorry dude but your post tells me next to nothing. What are "his options" and why are they "all better than Mario's"?

Tagging @ TriTails bc I know he thinks it's 60:40 but I'm looking for input from whoever.

Both Mario and Luigi likes one thing, to be right in people's face. Mario attacks slower than us and is worse when trading. We can trade all we want, Luigi is winning.

We break his combos with N-air, and so does he. But our combos are more damaging and and more guaranteed (F-air N-air out of D-throw works). Not to mention his N-air only deal a mere 8% while ours does like 12%.

Killing Luigi is hard. Mario's kill setups are much much more percents specifics. We can KO him easily due to our plethora of kill setups, doubled withbthe fact we hit harder, we generally get him to kill percents first before he does.

Gimping Mario is easy-ish. Meanwhile, Mario doesn't really have a way to challenge Luigi's recovery aside from aerial-ing our side-B or Down-b (Missiling low and using Jumpless Cyclone can work). He also can't edgeguard low except for stagespike B-air and N-air, the former is techable (I think) and the latter is fairly weak. Meanwhile, A F-air on our side might just be enough to take Mario out if we manage to take away his double jump.

But some Mario users think it's 35:65, which I disagree with. F-smash outranges all of Luigi's normals and is safe on his shield. His attacks lag less than us (B-air and SJP being the biggest offender), and he has much better mobility to play hit and run. Not like he hits hard anyway. But I do think this is solidly in 60:40 Luigi's favor. Ally and Zenyou I have heard having trouble with Luigis lately. Dakpo manage to do well against Ally with Luigi while his ZSS got bodied. Poke won against Ally despite being in lower skill level than him (I think... Don't aim that gun on me), and Mr. CC beating Ally in a recent regional, which forced Ally to use Falcon and lost anyway.

Some Mario users also think Luigi is Mario's worst MU, which is ironic. Player 2 finally can take off the spotlight from player 1!!!

 

[RedBeefBaron]

It's hard for Mario to outright gimp Luigi compared to most characters but it's usually not too hard for him to do a lot of damage before Luigi can get back on on stage. Being off stage with Luigi is pretty bad in all matchups.

I find Mario to be much easier when I respect the **** out of him and play a very patient defense game. Wall with fair, Nair, and fireballs, with the occasional bair poke while watching out for his bair. Don't recklessly fish for grabs but let them come to you instead.

Power shielding is big on this matchup. Learning how to power shield and immediately counter attack will help you deal with his fireball assisted approaches from the air.

 

[TriTails]

Alright guys.

Please nominate whoever you want for the next part of the specific MU discussion, while also helping to create a ratio for Pikachu (And kinda Villy) because the discussion weren't much of a noise. We can't move on until we have a ratio for both characters. I have to go shortly and when I get back I'll update the thread. Thanks for understanding.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I nominate toon link. This is bad for Luigi, correct?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-luigi.417713/

Hi Luigi mains. We Charizard players are discussing the Luigi vs Charizard matchup.

Come on over and talk with us. :D

 

[Aquatics]

nice thread. some of the MU are old

 

[Aquatics]

I nominate toon link. This is bad for Luigi, correct?

yeah because toon link has projectiles and its harder for him to get in. that why characters like mega man and others in the cast who have good zoning tools,are more hard for luigi

 

[RedBeefBaron]

yeah because toon link has projectiles and its harder for him to get in. that why characters like mega man and others in the cast who have good zoning tools,are more hard for luigi

That's what I thought too, although the tink boards seem pretty convinced that Luigi can just power shield everything to get in for his damage.

That sounds like just getting outplayed to me. Especially with how tink also has disjoints and a ranged grab to help keep Luigi out, up air which is very hard for someone with bad air speed to land against and bombs and rang for safe edgeguarding.

 

[TriTails]

Tink for the first one then.

2nd one?

 

[Space Stranger]

Why not our fat rival, Wario? I pocket Wario and I can try to gather some data from some matches with both characters.

 

[Astro !=]

TL doesn't beat Luigi. All you have to do is fireball camp and wait for him to approach. PS arrows and boomerang, z catch bombs, and watch for zair (even tho it's **** in this game, it can still catch you off guard). I mained TL in Brawl, and he had a slightly positive matchup vs Luigi in that game. Now, TL is nerfed hard and Luigi is almost identical.

In Brawl the idea was to camp Luigi out with bombs, boomerangs, and zairs, and eventually catch him with your sword and kill him when he tries to recover. Now, zair is bad, bombs are too slow, and his sword is embarrassing. I seriously just camp TL out with grounded fireballs and eventually force him into a corner until he makes a mistake. Then he gets eaten alive. He can't break combos if you space away from nair and bair, just remember that zair to the ledge is free af and you can't really stop it barring a proactive nair.

Watch out for raw dash grab though. He's got an excellent run speed, and his dash grab has more range than you'd expect. But he has literally 44 frames of lag after his grab whiffs, so just run up -up b.

He's also really easy to kill with d-throw, both cyclone and bair are easy to kill with. He's almost identical to Ness in his weight, and his air speed is almost as bad as ours.

If you're struggling in this matchup, get better at powershielding and catching/dodging items. His toys can't do much except
force you to let off the pressure, but if you can keep the fireballs up despite TL's "camp" game, then he's basically marth with a ****tier sword.

tl;dr, learn to beat his pathetic camp game, watch out for his fast nair/bair/jab, and combo away. He's fast on the ground but slow in the air, so juggle all day. He catches ledge free tho, so don't expect much off stage.

You shouldn't count my number here because of my Brawl bias. I'd personally say +2 for Luigi, but I have a feeling this could end up being voted around even.

If anyone can think of something TL has, then by all means fire away. I'd love to not hate this character anymore, but at this point I've totally given up on TL ever being anything better than lower mid tier..

Edit: I calmed down a bit. There's likely a style of TL that can do some damage, but I've yet to see it.

 

[miniada]

My opinions:
Luigi vs Marth
Well, Luigi USUALLY has problems when it comes to swordies.... but in Marth/Lucina's case (And possibly Ike), it's an exception.

Marth has zero answers to Fireball, and this will push him to approach. Thing is, he doesn't excel in approaching...... (Correct me if I am wrong), and you can usually dodge his approach options and punish him in the end lag with Luigi's great punish game. Marth has nothing to offer Luigi for difficulty but his tippers and edgeguarding skills.

His tippers are pretty much the only thing you need to worry about him onstage. Although, if Luigi doesn't let him get a room, then it's no problem. Luigi need to attack him fast enough, and that isn't usually a problem.

Marth's edgeguarding skills are also pretty decent, possesing long ranged aerials. However, they has pretty bad end lag (Correct me if I am wrong, I am not very familiar with Marth's moveset). Mindgame him off-stage and grab that ledge.

This MU is definitely in Luigi's favor IMO. Maybe around 55:45 Luigi, or maybe even 60:40 Luigi. He isn't that much of a threat other than his tippers.

Luigi vs Lucina
This MU is even better for Luigi. Lucina lacks tippers, taking away one of Marth's few advantages. All she has is edgeguarding skills, and pretty much has all of Marth's disadvantages coupled with lack of tippers and slightly shorter range. This MU is even better than Marth.

This MU is around 60:40 Luigi to 65:35 Luigi. This MU is better than Marth, so there is no way the numbers would be the same. Although, I'm going with these to play it safe....

Verdict: Marth: 55:45 Luigi

Lucina: 60:40 Luigi​

You mind telling me what swordies he lost to and does he still lose to them?.

 

[Astro !=]

You mind telling me what swordies he lost to and does he still lose to them?.

In Brawl, he lost to every swordsman except Link. He could deal damage if he got in, but he couldn't get in.

In Melee, he does badly against marth and maybe loses to Link/YL, but not sure on the last two. Marth keeps him out well and is too floaty to combo well.

In this game, swordsmen are... different. Zoning doesn't exist like it used to, and everyone can be combo'd fairly hard. They generally have weaker air games than they used to, and their throws aren't so scary anymore. If Brawl Marth came back then we'd have to worry, but until then swordsmen are fairly weak across the board.