Data Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread

FalKoopa

Rainbow Waifu
GRimer
Joined
Dec 16, 2012
Messages
32,231
Location
India/भारत
3DS FC
1650-3685-3998
Switch FC
SW-5545-7990-4793
Welcome to the Luigi Match-Up Discussion thread!



Match-up Chart
Click on the character icon to go to the corresponding match-up thread. The links and ratios will be updated as more match-ups are discussed.


:4mario:|:4luigi:|:4peach:|:4bowser:|:4yoshi:| :rosalina: |:4bowserjr:|:4wario:|:4gaw:
|||||40:60|||
:4dk:|:4diddy:|:4link:|:4zelda:| :4sheik: |:4ganondorf:|:4tlink:|:4samus:|:4zss:
60:40|||||||65:35|40:60
:4pit:|:4palutena:|:4marth:|:4myfriends:|:4robinm:|:4kirby:|:4dedede:|:4metaknight:|:4littlemac:
||55:45||||60:40|55:45|
:4fox:|:4falco:|:4pikachu:|:4charizard:|:4lucario:|:4jigglypuff:| :4greninja: |:4duckhunt:|:4rob:
||||||40:60||
:4ness:| :4falcon: |:4villager:|:4olimar:|:4wiifit:|:4drmario:|:4darkpit:|:4lucina:|:4shulk:
|45:55|35:65|||||60:40|50:50
|:4pacman:|:4megaman:|:4sonic:|:4miibrawl:|:4miisword:|:4miigun:
|40:60|||||||
 
Last edited:

FalKoopa

Rainbow Waifu
GRimer
Joined
Dec 16, 2012
Messages
32,231
Location
India/भारत
3DS FC
1650-3685-3998
Switch FC
SW-5545-7990-4793
Match-up List

To search for a particular character, press 'Ctrl+F' and type the name.

VS. Mario :4mario:

  • It shouldn't come as a surprise, but Mario has superior harass and zoning abilities with his fireballs, since gravity is applied to them.
  • Cyclone is absolutely mandatory in this match-up. It's practically the only way your moves will out-prioritize some of his
  • His F-smash also has far more range and can be used to punish Luigi's
  • One thing that's really important in this matchup is maintaining composure. Mario is likely going to be hitting you all game, but his attacks don't do very much damage. Luigi can get about 40% from a single combo, always keep that in mind.
  • Try to recover low with cyclone if you can do it safely. FLUDD is too much of a hassle to deal with when the Mario knows how to use it properly, best just to avoid it.
Pretty much the only time you can punish with uppercut is if Mario whiffs an up special, or if you throw him and he doesn't DI out of the way. The guy I fought covered these options every time so I had to get more creative with kill options. Dthrow into jump into cyclone is a pretty good kill option at around 120%.
VS. Bowser :4bowser:
I consider Bowser to be Up B bait. With him, Ike, and sometimes Ganon, I just wait until they do something, roll behind, and up b them. There moves tend to have a lot of lag, so we can get free up b's and tornadoes for when they are two far.
Also combos work better on heavies. I believe the d throw dair combo works on bowser at most percentages.

I would say this match is in our favor, the only thing that we have to watch out for is that we can't punish a lot of bowser attacks because of pushback on shield, but roll behinds and spot dodges fix that. Not so much spot dodges because Luigi lacks range, unless you spot dodge and do a perfect pivot to close the distance.
VS. Rosalina :rosalina:
Tornado is great in this matchup, it goes right through Luma and tosses it aside, even killing it sometimes. I like to focus on killing Luma first, then attacking Rosalina after because she doesn't have much of a chance against Luigi without Luma, super easy to combo and D throw to Up B, D throw to tornado is nice too because she'll most likely be stalling up there. She can just run away though due to faster mobility so that's a bit of a problem. Fireball is more useful in the air than the ground/ With Luma in play, it's worthless on the ground.
Definitely ignore Rosalina whenever Luma's up if the game's in neutral-- our approach is limited enough without trying to rush through that kind of obstacle. Fireball actually fires quickly enough that it's rarely efficient for Rosalina to down B them all, and, if she's spamming that, she's not attacking, and you're still potentially chipping Luma with a few fireballs. The key seems to be in out-camping Rosalina, as the most Luma might do is fire off some star bits so long as you keep out of its attack ranges and don't walk into Luma shots. Once Luma's down, just keep in mind that you need to take advantage of the speed of your aerials, as that's the key advantage you have over Rosalina's powerful disjointed ones. Even if Luma's up, it offers very little advantage in the air compared to the ground. As a note, while Rosalina's recovery is very quick and it has some great range, it's still quite feasible to stage-spike her. Given her own very slow air speed, though, it's more difficult for her to gimp us with her predictable Dair or such-- though, I normally see Rosalina's edgeguarding instead of hopping offstage to intercept lower recoveries (though that Fair plus Luma shot/star bits is quite the threat horizontally, so be wary of recovering too high). That all said, the match seems to depend on staying out of middle range. At long range, fireball forces her closer, while our only midrange tool is pretty much tornado-- which is unsafe on shield. Up close, our grab and quick air moves give us an edge, but butterfeet makes it difficult to 'stay in' on the ground for long... It seems like a battle of attrition at times, but we have a bit of an advantage in KO power, given the slight difference in weight and our myriad options for earlier KOs. Though, it's pretty difficult to deal with Luma combos if she manages to play aggro enough without making too many unsafe moves... if you can disrupt her control of the game's pace, you'll stand a much better chance.

VS. Donkey Kong :4dk:
I'm going to chime in on the DK matchup now. This matchup is another fun one for Luigi. Why? Because if you get so much as a grab on DK, he's in big trouble. A normal 0-40 or 50 on a character is about 0 to 60 or 80 on DK. It's nuts how easy he is to combo, might be the easiest in the game along with Ganondorf and DDD. DK has no moves on startup than are fast enough to really escape either. Also although it's not super easy to dair gimp offstage here, it is easy to spam fireballs at him while he recovers. Since he is entirely horizontal dependent, he has to eat a lot of them before getting back to the ledge or offstage. But it's not all bad for DK; if Luigi whiffs a move at the wrong range, he's in big trouble because DK definitely has the range advantage here. Also for the love of Arceus don't let him get you offstage, 3 different meteors against Luigi's recovery spells instant death, think about recovering and nothing else while trying to get back.

So overall, Luigi wrecks DK on stage with his fireballs that DK can't answer to and the combos destroy him more than anyone else. DK has deadly range though and will meteor smash Luigi offstage. But once Luigi gets in on DK, he's virtually out a stock if you land a kill move on him before he keeps out out with his range.

Verdict: 60-40 Luigi. Unlike Samus, DK at least has range on Luigi and a deadly offstage gimping game.
DK is like Ganondorf, but easier. You combo him, he is at your mercy. He hits you five times, you're dead. His D-smash is quite strong and fast, and those tilts KO. Similiar to Ganondorf, but easier to combo. I mean, wow at that hurtbox. He may be the biggest character in this game.

VS. Diddy Kong :4diddy:

But I think we should grab bananas as much as possible. When we see the chance to pick up a banana on the ground, or using our skills to grab bananas he throws (Just like J. Miller did), because with bananas in our hands, BOOM! He has no more campy game (Unless I'm missing something here), no guaranteed grabs, no trips, and most importantly, he pretty much has to get out of the banana's way, possibly messing him up while doing so.

In short, we STILL has to focus on Diddy the most. But when you see the chance, grab that blasted banana up. Diddy is less threathening without it. Then throw it at him, get a successful direct hit on the ground, and..... FREE GRAB!
I need to correct something, anyone can DI our d-throw, it is actually dependent on DI just how much damage we can optimally get. Predictable DI is gonna get us at max either two aerials of own choice dependent on the situation or just one aerial almost guaranteed more often than not. Dependent on what aerials we hit with, we can then get even more damage but at this point I feel we are just punishing ignorance more than anything.

I refer to a game I had with Cyve, he had peculiar DI in which I didn't read correct and got nothing off of it, against Leffen you will notice that I eventually had to opt for one aerial and a retreating fireball to adjust to the fact he had realised he needed to stop taking as much damage as he was at one time.

MK can be a tool that can shut us down if we let it , the thing is we have to let Diddy's know we have valid answers to it at all times because we do. Fair, N-air, UP-B,OoS U-smash, Jab, and evasive maneuvers are usually are best bet but it depends on the situation and whether you have the composure to optimally punish these things. There were several times in which I wanted to UP-B but if it whiffs then I am basically handing a game/set to my opponent. Last thing anyone can afford to do against an opponent who is becoming aware.

Perfect shielding and being aware of how Diddy plays with Bananas is vital.
Luigi cannot afford to be impatient vs Diddy when the player is aware just powerful a banana on the ground actually is.

In this situation we either have to retreat, jab the banana to make it disappear or just wait exactly out of a range where we can deal with pressure from Diddy which will probably the following:

FF SH F-air
Dash Grab
Monkey Flip *Up to them what variant they use and will go for the one they feel is best*
Crouch walk forward D-tilt
Walk forward to push the Banana forward F-smash

This is a situation that in time we will face I am certain of it, we will need to stay patient and not crack under the pressure.

Luigi vs Diddy is a mu that is very momentum based and although we damage accumulate very well, unless there is a vital slip when it comes to Diddy it can be a task to kill a patient one.
Diddy's mobilty and airspeed will also make things difficult but not impossible, we also have jab to prevent bad grab attempts it is just important to not have tunnel vision or rush the kill... the moment we start doing this, the harder the harder the match will be for us.

There are other things I have not addressed or spoken about yet, but I felt mentioning just how powerful bananas can be for Diddy as well as us was very important.

Banana is our possession is important because we know have a very strong option Oos, a strong projectile that can guarantee a grab or a smash attack. It is a game/stock changing thing to correctly use a banana in anyone's hands, it is down to the situation how it is used.

Bananas cannot always simply just thrown back at the Diddy, thinking outside of the box is required to truly utilse just how dangerous a banana can be. JC throwing it down can be something people are not ready for in general we have to be aware of whatever situation we may face and if we do get a banana attempt to use it as best as you can manage. There were several times in my sets I failed or got the wrong input and just do what I had planned with spacing or just making the most of the banana in my hand.

To be able to shield pressure with fireballs, or at least make the Diddy approach is huge. As long as we are not pressing buttons or overextending then it is a promising situation for us to be in.
When a diddy has a banana in hand or on stage in front of him, I just start throwing out fireball and force him to do something. Fireball kills thrown banana and when throwing fireballs out over a banana on stage it makes it difficult for him to retrieve the banana. During fireball spam, his best options with banana in hand is probably jump up throw banana from my experience (which is somewhat slow and reactable). With banana on stage, probably sideb but that's totally fine by me because we're at least forcing him to get close and you shouldn't be mindlessly pressing b as well. Give yourself some time to react to options like sideb when you're forcing an approach with fireball.


VS. Sheik :4sheik:
I can't say that the match-up is definitely even, but I think that Luigi can stand against her.
I do have a problem with Sheik's fair since it is very quick, leaving Luigi very little room to breath or react.
He can, however, counter some of her more devious combos. Her f-tilt combos, while very good, can broken with his neutral air. The neutral air is key here as some of her combos do become less effective (and could potentially KO her if she isn't careful at certain percents). Her down throw to Bouncing Fish can easily be air dodged by Luigi, making a key combo less effective; just DI away from her and if she initiates it, air dodge.
Fireballs are mildly effective, but I am more of a fan of using aerials and the Luigi Cyclone to approach with in this fight.
I suggest mixing up recoveries to stay unpredictable. She has a lot of great options that can screw us over, like Bouncing Fish, her fair, and her back air. (also, her Needles have more priority than the Green Missile... for some reason)
One distinct advantage that we have over Sheik is KOing power. While Sheik does have a great ability to combo and dish out damage, she has difficulty actually getting the KO. Luigi, on the other hand, can KO her a bit more early and has a greater number of finishers.

I think this match-up may require patience on our part. If we go in guns blazing, then we will be combo meat to her and the damage will quickly rack up.
I'll need to investigate more on good strategies against Sheik.
Luigi doesn't seem to have many options against Sheiks grenade, Sheik can come in with a grab when she uses a grenade and from then on can get off a good amount of forward airs. Its always good to know when she is going to do a walk off Grenade Ledge cancel and to not be trapped by it, it really gives her lots of momentum. The annoying thing about the Grenade ledge cancel is that you cant punish very easily.
VS. Ganondorf :4ganondorf:
Spam fireballs as much as you can. He has a large frame and it's easy to disrupt him that way. Same with Tornado. Green Missile also out-prioritises Wizard's Foot. Whatever you do, preferably stay a at mid range, as Ganondorf has no projectiles and his attacks don't have much range usually. Just never approach him directly. It's easier to chip at his health and then finish him off with a well paced F-Smash or whatever.
This isn't a matchup I can really say much on, but a bit of general vs-Ganon advice: usmash has surprisingly low end lag, be wary of the frametrap. I would also think that Luigi should go for Cyclone spike edgeguards, if Cyclone outprioritizes Ganondorf's upB. With Ganondorf's recovery it would be an easy early kill, and if he does grab you with the upB you have a ton of time to react and tech.
Ganon usmash is more of a bait than a frametrap due to the IASA frames the move has. As for edgeguarding, if you're confident about going offstage then something fun I like trying to do is purposely get caught by his upb while he's recovering so I can tech walljump and hit him off farther while he's stuck in the upb endlag. Same for falcon.


VS. Samus :4samus:
Samus, now here's one of Luigi's easiest matchups, imo. You may think Samus can do lots of damage here thanks to her plethora of projectiles...until you realize Luigi can tornado though all missiles. I'm not sure if he loses momentum with super missiles, but normal missiles he plows right though and doesn't stop, they are basically useless here. Also Samus is fairly easy to D throw to combos, and to Up B. She can be gimped, if you time it right. The only and only threatening things Samus has here is charge shot. That you cannot tornado through. Most Samuses use a back throw then charge it [like any character with a charging projectile] and Luigi's slow speed often lets them do that. Fireballs work great, they cancel out missiles and Samus is big so has little way around them. Other than that, nothing else of Samuses scares me. She doesn't kill very well, and zair is the only other tool worth mentioning to keep Luigi out. 65:35. I love this matchup.

VS. Zero Suit Samus :4zss:
ZSS is a matchup I've been playing a fair bit lately, albeit not against the most varied lineup of players, and it's definitely one of the more interesting ones. On the one hand, ZSS is one of the few characters who feels to be an aerial threat to Luigi, on the other, he's able to shut down an incredible amount of her ground game through fireballs-- it outspeeds and clashes with her neutral and side B's, while also interrupting her tether grab follow-ups to the former. That, and cyclone also cuts through paralyzer shots and dash attacks, in addition to it working as a solid aerial defensive tool against her Fairs/Uairs (but not so much Nairs/Zairs). That said, ZSS's aerial speed is pretty high pressure, and her up B fills a similar role to Luigi's in working as a punishing KO move. ZSS's Usmash is also extremely troublesome, given it's lingering and Luigi's poor aerial mobility, and she has plenty of tools for potentially gimping Luigi-- particularly given how far she can safely chase offstage. Add to that her greater attack range in general plus her fairly easily comboed size, and you have quite the interesting matchup. That, and for some reason ZSS was the first I landed a Dtaunt spike on (the second being Bowser), which, while irrelevant, rather cemented my thinking of this as a curious MU.
I can say now that after the plethora of ZSS I've versed...it's really not too bad of a matchup. I remember posting about this matchup in the ZSS specific thread, so I'll just pull the info out of there:

"ZSS is certainly iffy...but not as bad as Rosalina or Sheik. She will outspeed you movement wise, and she's difficult to juggle [moreso than Rosalina]. Stun gun I have no found super effective as a projectile against Luigi attack wise, I always clank it out with Nair or tornado. So it won't pose a threat stunning you for the most part. But it will stop your momentum a bit. When she knocks you into the air, she will follow with an up B 9/10 times. Luigi seems a bit slippery for ZSS to directly land her side B, it usually only nicks him with the cord and not the sweetspot. When she grabs and misses , very vulnerable to an up B. Rising tornados are nice to kill off the top, be weary of down Bs or dairs in the air though.

Overall rough thanks to mobility issues, but not terrible. Like Vaporeon said, 60-40 or 65-35 ZSS, I can't decide...can we agree on 62.5-32.5 ZSS? :p"

Things have changed though, of course. Now, I think it's 60-40 ZSS and not a point higher. Most important points are tornado can clank out stuns, also nair can. Luigi can also crawl under all stuns cept a fully charged one. And when she whiffs a grab, she's basically dead. She's going to need a grab to set you up in the air high enough for a predictable up B. Fireballs work great here too, stop stuns and ZSS has no reflector. Also prone to dair gimps, she's not too trouble offstage asides from her spiking Down B, watch for it. If she misses though, she uses tends to whiff her recovery when focusing to set it up so much.

Verdict: 60-40 ZSS.
Fireballs stop ZSS' Paralyzer, no matter how hard she charge it. Forcing her to rely on her close combat. Now, what I usually do is wait for her to approach and punish her. She has tether, but like other tethers in the game, it's punishable. But her D-throw (I think? The one that where she slams you with her leg) can lead to her aerials and, this is just great, UP-B!

Well, Luigi need to stick with his ground combat. Occasional Cyclones, and rely on grabs, and make sure you use Fireballs often but not spamming..... and that's what I did. Dodge her grabs, and Cyclone her Down-b (Interrupt her in the air, but this will require some good reads), punish her as hard as you can, and when she miss a grab, she is dead.

VS. Marth/Lucina :4marth::4lucina:
I can tell you right now the Marth matchup is WAY easier this time around. I may write about it later, but I don't even think Marth has an advantage here anymore, that's how much nicer it is. Hint: Fireballs wreck Marth + his end lag on everything.

And if Marth isn't bad already...Lucina is even easier, of course. I mean, Marth and Lucina don't get totalled by Luigi thanks to their range still, but I'm thinking 55:45 Luigi for Marth and 60:40 Luigi for Lucina.
Yep, in my (admittedly limited) experience, Marth/Lucina are pretty vulnerable to good ol' Luigi rushdown. On the ground, Fireballs are naturally useful, and Tornado can cover ground surprisingly fast as a punish option. Superior grab and combo game, too; once you get right up in Marth's face, Luigi's neutral options are superior (I think).

In the air, proper Marth spacing can make approaches difficult, but Luigi has fireballs, a nair which comes out quickly and has no landing lag, and a fair which is also super fast. Bair too I think might outrange or at least match the range on (some of ) Marth's aerials. Once Marth lands the lag naturally makes them pretty vulnerable to punishes, so it's a matchup in which Luigi can go on the offensive pretty successfully

VS Robin :4robinm::4robinf:
now I'm pondering at my other main as a matchup: Robin. Fireballs are certainly massively useful for their cutting through those projectiles, bar Thoron (even arcfire can be covered with shorthopped fireballs), but Robin's aerials quite consistently hurt like hell, and Robin's tilts feel to be less punishable than Marth's. I think there's more risk in the air in general, but that the angles are very similar (as Robin's aerials hit from much the same distance and even some of the same hitbox placements). That said, I feel like Robin has an even easier time gimping, given those more consistent spikes, arcfire and thunder pokes, Elwind spiking, and Nair pokes that hit at that crazy horizontal angle.

Rolling against Robin should generally be avoided, as it lets them take advantage of their spacing tools a bit too well-- if you can keep arcfire and arcthunder under control with fireballs, shielding becomes an incredibly safe option, as Robin's grab range is extremely limited, a la Little Mac. This, of course, makes Robin highly vulnerable to our usual grab comboing, and their recovery also rather feels to be quite vulnerable to our Dair... or even Dtaunt, given that there are absolutely no hitboxes above, it moves slowly and predictably, and it doesn't sweetspot if poorly spaced. A poorly timed approach will have Robin easily batting you away with an Ftilt, and Robin's neutral game is rather excellent, but Robin has little defense against juggling save for B-reverses or a well-placed Bair. Both can gimp each other, and both can kill moderately early, but Luigi has the easier time of both, while his core mechanics of comboing are largely unhindered by Robin's kit, given that fireballs keep Robin from maintaining much of a campy game.

I'd say the matchup feels comparable to Marth, in any case-- which is the feeling that had me inclined to bring Robin up whilst on the subject of swords. Particularly since Marth, Link, and Shulk have all been discussed at this point... I suppose Ike makes for a decent springboard from there, but I honestly feel like he's about the same as Robin-- easily comboed, can kill early, hates fireballs, disjointed hitboxes and good aerial spacing...

VS. King Dedede :4dedede:
How I beat D3s:
1. Spam Fireballs because Gordos
2. Wait for him to approach
3. Punish him if he made a mistake (D3's D-tilt is really an annoyance, use B-air or something like that to punish him during the end lag)
4. Grab D3 =Free 48%, repeat this for a few times
5. Shield his N-air
6. He often leaves himself vunerable because of his attacks end lag, so another punish
7. He recovers high with SD3J = Literally free FJP

Defintely in Luigi's favor. I'd say 60:40. His Gordos are easy to reflect with Fireballs, and he is very susceptible to F-air chaingrab. Not all that hard to KO either since if he recovers high = Free FJP, and that can mean a stock.

VS. Meta Knight :4metaknight:
:4luigi:Strengths and Weaknesses
  • Low cool down on fireball so he can zone MK out effectively giving him the edge in footsies
  • High damage output
  • Like MK has kill setups
  • Better CQC frame data
  • Low landing lag on aerials
  • Safe F-Smash like MK
  • Nair that can potentially break out of uair strings
  • Easy to Gimp off stage
  • Low traction
  • Horrible air mobility
  • Not very good ground mobility(His nado can cover that weakness somewhat but i got that covered)
  • Short range
:4metaknight:Strengths and Weaknesses
  • Recovery that bypasses edgeguard attempts and ledge camping
  • 6 jumps to stall landings,recovery and fireballs
  • Kill setups
  • Disjointed hitboxes
  • Safe Dash attack
  • Similar Dash grab to C.Falcon with the slide effect
  • Better mobility all around than Luigi
  • Short Range
  • Less tools at his disposal in neutral
  • End lag on all his aerials so they cannot be used in neutral
  • Luigi's jab alone is faster than Dtilt his fastest ground move
  • His damage per hit being lower than Luigi
  • Lightweight
On Stage Game
Luigi will most likely start with Fireballs in order to approach us safely, MK has answers to his fireballs being: Mach Tornado and his Side B. Both which are unsafe, Mach Tornado its better to use up close than far away due to Luigi's fast cool down after throwing one fireball. But what MK can do is shield a fireball purposely baiting an approach from Luigi then quickly OOS Dtilt. This has a 25% chance of tripping and even without it we can start up a combo, i think Luigi's low traction sends him further than others(need confirming) this can also prevent Luigi from grabbing you.MK Dtilt starts at frame 3 and ends on 4 so we have a lot of room to stop a standing grab or dash grab.

If Luigi notices this and throws another F-Ball we can clank the fireball with another Dtilt, due to how quick it starts and ends we can abuse this and if Luigi approaches and attempts to shield grab we can throw out Dtilt before Luigi grabs us. It requires quick timing but as of now is the most effective way on getting by this huge obstacle in neutral, Dtilt is our main move on the ground since Luigi goes for loads of dash grabs to start his combo's and we have nothing to compete with his fast jab.

Luigi can safely approach from the air using FH Fair then falling with Nair then throwing out his jab, so i advice not attempting to shield grab Luigi if he does that since he can potentially jab then go for a grab. Safest combo to do at low percents is Dash attack into Utilt, Luigi will most likely mash A to throw out a Nair but our disjointed hitboxes beat his aerials out completely. This is also why Uair strings aren't so bad against him since all it really relies on is your reaction time, MK has to put in work to string combo's while Luigi's is honestly simple for example: Utilt strings at low percents, anything out of down throw etc.

The ground game would be pretty even if MK damage per hit were higher, Luigi gets so much reward out of one throw its actually ridiculous. At best one error from Luigi will lead to him gaining above 30% but Luigi can go above and beyond due to how much better his damage per hit is. Dair Zoning is not a good idea since Luigi has the same U-Smash as Mario in terms of how their head works although its not as lethal in terms of killing as it doesn't send MK straight up.

Mach Tornado is very dangerous to use due how hard Luigi punishes, he can SJP most of our errors. Luigi isn't as fast as his brother but it doesn't excuse us to start slacking off and using moves that he can easily shield.

Luigi can use Nado as means to improve his mobility but MK can stop it with his Dtilt, I'll upload a video of me actually abusing it after almost getting demolished on the first game(lucky SD).

Off Stage Game

MK absolutely demolishes in this area, his aerials are all disjointed meaning Luigi can combat us off stage instead he'll need to air dodge. Only thing that can hinder MK off stage is Luigi recovering with Nado which can easily be baited and punished after Luigi does his animation where he sticks his arms out. If Luigi tries to recover horizontally with his Green Missile that too can be baited, MK will be on the ledge waiting so he can fall off and Nair him(Shine Spike). If MK is off stage he can bypass edgeguard attempts using DC but if MK gets too predictable Luigi can punish him, thankfully MK has 4 options to recover(5 if he had his high speed drill custom): SL onto the ledge,DC onto ledge,DC behind Luigi(or on platforms),Side B onto ledge.

Our Bair kills around 80% with no rage and Nair kills around 90 or 100% depending how close you are to the blastzone. We got 6 jumps to abuse off stage and also improve our edge guarding ability, Luigi has horrible air mobility so he won't be going far.

Because of MK good performance off stage comebacks are possible.
I say the MU is 53:47 in :4luigi:'s favor. At best it could be even but i cannot excuse on how rewarding Luigi is compared to MK damage wise, we both got reliable kill setups but :4metaknight: dominates off stage. Luigi can wall us out with Fballs while we can abuse Dtilt and poke him out, his jab comes out faster than our moves, our Uair beats all his aerials. We go back and forth until we get to the damage and reward department.

Opinion: Its one of the more passive aggressive MU against the higher tiers, since we can't go full aggro against Luigi and we must also get though constant fireballs everytime the neutral resets which is pretty damn often. Basically me who loves intense combo matches while going back and forth styling on each other in the process(MK vs C.Falcon being the most enjoyable) I'll say this match up is boring af.

Like @ItoI6 said don't go for Down throws at high percent, near the ledge Back Throw can kill and Up throw reliably kills above 150% with rage off course 170% without rage. God forbid Luigi lives that long especially with the kill setups and gimps MK can offer.
(Will upload the video when i get the time)
I can confirm that D-Tilt beats Cyclone. It seems like D-Tilt just hits under Cyclone's hitbox tho I have been able to make them clash as well. Either way, D-Tilt answers Cyclone.

Gimping Luigi isn't too difficult. Get to know his distance for Green Missile and use your 5 jumps to wait for an opportunity to D-Air. Not F-Air, but D-Air (B-Air could kill so that can work too.); smart Luigi DI the F-Air to gain height and usually will just reset the situation with us having less jumps left or it will even give Luigi the opportunity to recover overhead while we're forced back to the ledge to refresh our jumps. D-Air sends Luigi horizontally and even allows us to chase him for a follow-up. Worst case scenario, it's a misfire but it's worth the risk to take stocks off Luigi.

Also, with how telegraphed Missile is, we can reliably Drill Rush you into the blast zone for the final stock for style. If you Missile high, we don't even have to risk losing our stock to do it.

His Up-B only has invincibility for the first half the duration of the move. If you force Luigi to recover very low, a well-placed N-Air or F-Air can stage spike before he snaps to ledge. Not too hard considering how much pressure MK can put on Luigi; I think Boss recovered low every time against me. There's also a universal two frame window of vulnerability before any character ledge-snaps, Luigi also ledge snaps lower than most recoveries. Just remember that SJP's hitbox is most prominent in front of Luigi so N-Air very slightly behind where he will be instead of directly over top of him.


Also Meta Knight doesn't do as poorly on-stage as you think, @ TriTails TriTails All Fire Balls do is force MK into the air, which is perfectly fine. He doesn't even have to approach if you Fire Ball should he have a lead. 6 jumps and a shield weathers any projectile storm and the only place Fireball spam would be viable anyhow is FD since platforms and MK is a winning combination against projectiles. But still, while MK might evade Fire Balls entirely, pressure is pressure and telling MK where he can't be is always a plus.

MK and Luigi go very even on-stage. You get combos off Grab, we get combos off Dash Attack and Dash Grab. We both can just pick up an aerial string if we catch each other sleeping in the air. Our attack reach on the ground is about even too. Meta Knight has a stronger mid-range game with Dash Attack and Dash Grab being as fast as they are, D-Tilt keeping Luigi from approaching, and his option to hover D-Air and land at any point with a grab from fast fall. But Luigi is however more damaging blow for blow, Jab pressure, has the aforementioned Fire Ball pressure, and his KO set-ups are much safer than MK's. That doesn't mean MK can't KO, we get KOs off grab too and Up-Smash KOs from a juggle, MK's options are just less safe than Luigi's, aside from MK's F-Smash, that move is just safe. Neither character has too big of an advantage over the other if both players are playing cautiously.

Aside from gimping, the other place MK shines is that MK can juggle Luigi really easily as nothing Luigi has out-ranges MK Up-Air, Up-Tilt, & Up-Smash. Air dodge is the only option and that can be punished with another combo or Nado into a juggle if predicted. Dash Attack and Throws set up juggles should Luigi let his guard down.

From short hop however, MK and Luigi are evenly matched. It's very difficult to say whose F-Air would land first and Luigi might end up sticking his feet into the grinder if he B-Air's against MK's swordplay but with Luigi hitting for 14% a kick, it's not always worth it for MK to risk a trade. As long as Luigi doesn't jump too high (juggle scenario again) short hopping can work well to get past MK's D-Tilt poking.

imo it's no better than 50:50 and no worse than 45:55 Luigi's favor, I'm leaning more toward the 50:50 tho as these characters are very evenly matched in the neutral game but shine in one area or another that could lead to a KO.
Talking about this just makes me want to play Boss again now that I know the MU. I think, win or lose, we could have a really hype set.

VS. Little Mac :4littlemac:
1. Jump or fireball. Fireball covers right in front of you, letting you build some space and get back to neutral. You can also jump and prepare to assault him with aerials or a falling cyclone. He can run up and shield, waiting to punish, but you can just empty jump and grab.
2. Recover lower. Mac has no off-stage game, so just missile until below the ledge, jump and up b. It will auto snap to the ledge and he won't gimp you with dsmash anymore.
3&4. Cyclone! Cyclone is great in this match because it lets you keep up with his rolls and keep pressure on him the entire match. As a bonus, it pops him up for easy follow ups. Just stay near the ground when he's coming down and you can grab him to keep the combos going. dthrow -> bair hits hard and gets him off the stage at mid percents, giving good opportunities to gimp.
I'd just like to say that fighting Mac in general is an annoying fight, and if the Mac is careful they can easily take your stock.

One of his annoying traits is super armor on his Smash attacks. What it means usually, is that any pressure you have up close doesn't mean as much on Mac as other characters. He can just whip out a Smash whenever you attack him, an up-smash if you try to apporach from the air, a d-smash if you try to go in to attack, etc. It's something you have to watch out for, and a good counter to his Smashes (since shielding will send Luigi sliding away) is spot-dodging and then grabbing. That's why I recommend everyone practices the timing of their spotdodge (luckily Luigi's is fairly quick) in case you have to fight a good Mac.

VS. Fox :4fox:
I played against some Foxes in For Glory and I can say a few things about the match-up.

Fox is a very combo heavy character and he can bait you into doing a misstep. While Fox's attacks are very quick, Luigi can easily escape his u-tilts and his jab combo with nair. Fox's falling speed helps Luigi into comboing him, giving Luigi a nice deal of set-ups and follow-ups for his down throw.

Luigi's Fireball game is slightly weakened thanks to the Reflector, but I don't think that will be too much of a deal breaker here as let's say Mr. Game & Watch's Oil Panic. Luigi's short hop aerials are particularly effective at keeping Fox at bay and spacing him out. I should also mention that Luigi can duck and crawl underneath Fox's Blaster, meaning Luigi won't have to suffer from Blaster's chip damage (but only if you're crawling).
As for Fox's recovery, it's pretty predictable and kinda gimpable. I wouldn't be too afraid to attack Fox while he is recovering with Fire Fox and Luigi can defend himself from Fox Illusion by shielding or doing a nair (depends on the situation, also be careful as Fox Illusion can spike).

However, Fox has the advantage in the air. His forward aerial is a good move that Fox mains will use after a set-up since it can easily combo Luigi and it's hard to escape. If you see Fox use his down aerial, the best option is to shield it and wait for the move to be over, but I haven't seen any Foxes use it as a follow-up move. His back aerial can reck Luigi and it's a good edge-guarding tool against him; it definitely benefits from the new ledge mechanics. As for his up aerial... yeah, it's powerful, it's good, but try to dodge it and outsmart Fox.

I will say that Fox is scary at later percents with rage, especially when his up smash benefits from it. I noticed that some Foxes like to trap you in a corner and up smash against you... I lost two matches because of that maneuver.

I don't think that Fox is one of Luigi's tougher match-ups. Hell, I beat a Fox so many times that he counter-picked to Little Mac. I think the key thing here is patience against Fox and by spamming nair. I'm dead serious about nair; it's an amazing move in this fight.
However, take this with a grain of salt; this is For Glory, after all.
VS. Greninja :4greninja:
Greninja is very jumpy, which makes it hard for Weegee.

Fireballs won't stop fully charged Water Shuriken, and Greninja has rangey smashes.

We must stop his jumps somehow. Luigi Cyclone is punishable, but I think that is our only reliable option. Or we MAY be able to use dashing U-smash, but I'm not sure.

Next, we has to grab him. His Shadow Sneak is teleghraphed, so shield and grab him if possible. His Counter sucks, but Luigi has high end lag attacks also, so we must be careful to not Cyclone to his Counter.

Fireballs are pretty vital for this MU, but don't try to clash it with Water Shurikens. Fuly charged version travels slower and shorter, but it's surprisingly powerful, shield is our best option. It also eats our Fireballs.

His speed is a problem. But hey, try throwing out Fireballs anyway. His Shurikens need to be charged to neutralize our Fireballs, so get outta there by jumping or shield it.

Luigi will dominate in the air as long as he can keep things under control. This is applicable to almost all MUs. Just watch out for his own. I kinda forgot what are his F-air and B-air, but try to not get caught in that U-air.

If you are seeing him trying to push us with Hydro Pump, I'd suggest to read when and what direction he aims, then Cyclone and go for the ledge. SJP has invincibility during the rise, so as long as you don't shot through the ledge, recovering from below seems to be our best bet. Although, just mix your recovery for most part, to me, Hydro Pump is more annoying than I thought.

Try to pressure him and don't let him has a room to do his tricks. I rarely seen Greninjas online, so sprry if I got some things wrong.
Eh, Shurikens can be shielded, and the thing is, he may be able to run for a grab. Maybe we can try jump + Luigi Cyclone or aerials, but again, I have little experience with this MU, so I dunno much.

However, I think we can air dodge the U-smash and punish him with a grab in the lag. And about his aerials, try Luigi Cyclone. Hopefully, it will clash and Luigi win it, cancelling his aerials and then we can proceed to offensive.

Shurikens CAN be cancelled. As long as it doesn't grow into crazy size. Fireballs have surprisingly high priority.

And also, for kill move, you can try to bait an airdodge with D-throw and U-smash them. Works for players who are air-dodge happy. So basically D-throw + they air dodge + U-smash. Be careful for Counters though!

And also, Luigi also can punish Greninja. His Shadow Sneak leaves him vunerable when shielded, and his jumps can be punished with Luigi Cyclone. Punish Counter with grabs, obviously.
Neutral:

Greninja outcamps Luigi with a faster projectile with more range than his so you're forced to approach him, however shurikens have a fair bit of ending lag, so it is possible to get to Greninja by using cyclone, but unless you're somewhat close, it's very easy for Greninja to shield cyclone and punish you for your troubles if they see it coming. Don't get too predictable with cyclones. Fireballs at close range can be useful to set Greninja up for a grab since if he tries shurikens that close, the end-lag is super punishable, so if he gets hit, shields or spotdodges, he can be grabbed, but he can still jump over it or roll to escape so it's not guaranteed

Luigi has to play defensively in neutral, the best opportunity for dealing damage to Greninja is shieldgrabbing a n-air. However, be cautious when doing that, n-air can push you away while you're in your shield, putting you a distance away from him and if you try to grab, you will miss and likely get grabbed yourself or worse. Be also cautious of Greninja going behind during n-air as similar things can happen. Greninja's F-Air and B-Air are safe on shield if spaced correctly, so be wary of that. Greninja's dash grab also has a great range and comes out very quickly.

Advantage:

Luigi can deal a lot of damage to Greninja out of d-throw which is great, however, his bad mobility often means that Greninja will usually be able to get away from him fairly easily with his superior airspeed and the assistance of Hydro Pump if need be. Try to keep Greninja above you as his only option to counter you is d-air, which will leave him vulnerable to an attack if it misses, or Substitute which has the same problem if it's not triggered. The moment Greninja is above you is the best moment to deal damage or get the kill, as hard as it can be to keep him there.

Disadvantage:

The best way for Luigi to get away from Greninja after being put in this state is n-air. Greninja can chase you down mercilessly and catch your landings with Up-Smash (though N-Air trades with it and results in only the first weak hit striking, keep that in mind) or a dash grab. If he shields your N-Air, you're either going to get jabbed or hit by d-tilt, which can be lethal at higher percentages due to it comboing into Up-Smash. It's better to try to break out of Greninja's juggling when you're both in the air, if you manage to hit Greninja with a N-Air while he's jumping after you for an Up-Air or whatever, he's going to be sent above you so you can use that as an opportunity to reverse the situation.

Edgeguarding:

This is pretty bad for Luigi. Greninja can edgeguard him well with B-air and Hydro Pump. One note about Green Missile, I believe it's possible for Greninja to use Substitute against it for edgeguarding as the move has quite the end lag when it hits something from what I've seen. Upwards Substitute can kill Luigi as early as 85% with no rage in Final Destination and leave Greninja completely safe to return even if he wasted his second jump before.

Cyclone helps Luigi recovery, but if the Greninja times it well he can hit Luigi during the end lag of the move which can result in death if you already used your double jump and you're not very good at the jumpless cyclone. Greninja can also stage spike you if you're below the stage or flat out kill you by timing a Shadow Sneak out of stage.

When it comes to the inverse, Luigi will have trouble keeping Greninja out, Shadow Sneak already lets him close the distance to the stage very well with little trouble due to the teleport, plus Hydro Pump mix-ups make him very hard to keep out. Be wary when jumping after Greninja for the gimp because you're at the risk of something like this happening to you and possibly costing you a life.

So my take on the MU is that Greninja can outrange Luigi and chase him very easily due to much better mobility and he also can edgeguard Luigi very well. Luigi can deal more damage to him in a combo, but it's going to be difficult to really keep Greninja on a disadvantaged state. You guys need to make every hit count and try to get as much damage on him as possible before going for the kill. Greninja's smashes and aerials have a good amount of lag on them for you to punish, but be wary of his aerials since he can make them be safe on block and throw you off which will likely result in you getting grabbed.

Ideally you want to get Greninja when he messes up while on the ground where you can capitalize on his mistakes there more consistently, though if you find a good opening after he uses an aerial, go for it; once you manage to hit him, try to keep Greninja above as much as you can to deal damage. Edgeguarding Greninja is very difficult, but if you start to see patterns in how they're recovering, take advantage of them to edgeguard more safely. Be very careful when offstage because Greninja can get you dead very easily there.

Like I said before I don't know much about Luigi and his tools so I might be overlooking something, still, I hope I could be of help. This MU feels like quite the uphill battle for Luigi since Greninja is very good at keeping him in a bad position, but as long as you're pacient, you should be able to find the openings you need to win.

VS. R.O.B. :4rob:
I´ll say the rob match up is kinda hard for Luigi, its similar to the villager match up, those gyros are so annoying, and if the rob player knows how to camp you well, you will really have a bad day against rob...
the things I do against him is:
-Try not to shield his giro, why? cuz every time you cover the giro, it will disappear, so rob can use it again, and again, and again, I think spot dodge is a better option, and if you can get the giro, just throw that **** up, that way rob will not use it against you.
- robs nair, bair, dair, fsmash and lazer beats our tornado, so be careful at that, specially when you are recovering.
the good part of this match up is that rob doesn't have faster aerials, and his just too big, so yeah, we can combo him a lot.
dthrow to:
- nair: dies at 148%
-up b: dies at 110%
-bair: 147%
-tornado: 143%
(these where tested at final destination vs a cpu, bair was tested from the middle of final).

so yeah, the hard part of this match up is getting near to rob, specially if the rob player knows how to camp you well, when your are near him, be careful with his dtilt, its to fast and can clash with your jabs and ftilt, also, his fsmash has a lot of range.
but once you are in his face, o boy, combos all day baby :D

VS. Ness :4ness:
A few things you have to watch out for:

1) Ness' n-air out of shield. This makes it hard to shield pressure a good Ness player because the hitbox on n-air is pretty crazy, making it a great option for them if Luigi approaches too often for a grab.

2) Like Luigi, Ness has a great d-throw -> fair -> fair -> up air combo. The best way to deal with this is to DI behind the Ness player. It is still almost a guaranteed up air but that's better than the fair follow up.

3) Lots of Ness players will fish for grabs at 80+ % due to back throw being a super early kill option near the edge of the stage. Abuse that.

4) Ness is extremely vulnerable off stage. If you can get one below the ledge without a jump, that's almost a guaranteed stage spike or dair spike set-up. However, if you're not feeling brave enough to challenge his PK thunder recovery, don't go for it.

5) Beware of PK fire spammers. I know several Ness players that will throw 5 PK fires at you, retreat, then throw 5 more. Run up
-> shield is always a great option against projectile spammers.

6) If you're spamming fireballs and they down b to absorb them, the end lag from that is ridiculous and it's a free grab for you if you're close enough. Bait out the down b with a fireball and then go in for a quick grab.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
VS. Capt. Falcon :4falcon:
Falcons can be uppercutted if they whiff any special moves, but thanks to his long limbs and fast movement speed, he can juggle Luigi with up airs very well. Fortunately, one down throw on Falcon makes him easy to combo thanks to his big frame and fast fall speed, about as easy to combo as Ganondorf. I usually never fail to get less than 59% off a grab at 0%. Unlike Ganondorf though, who can't answer to fireballs, Falcon can do a flying knee over them and hit you square on, so they are only average in this matchup. He can still be gimped with a well placed dair though. I usually win this match up though thanks to the sheer amount of how much I've played it now. If untrained though, can be a bit difficult. Falcon can juggle and get around your projectiles with speed, but often leaves himself open to uppercuts and combos hurt him. 55:45 Falcon.
Captain Falcon is too heavy to get a double fair off at 0%. You can't do it to him, Greninja, Sheik, Mega Man and to a lesser extent, Falco and Fox. Instead you'll want to fair then nair which will pop him up for maybe an utilt or usmash. Alternatively, you can just build a bit of % on him first before going in for dthrow combos.

I always recover super low against Falcon because if he goes too low to edge guard he can't recover back. Just missile really, really low until you're right under the ledge before going for a jump and an up B to sweet spot.

Fireballs help keep him out somewhat but they aren't the most important thing for the match. Dair and bair and nair will be your best tools. Nair interrupts his combos, bair can compete with his bair, which he uses to approach because it's great, and dair beats up basically everything else he can do. Out of a dthrow I like to bair falcon to get him off stage because I find edge guarding him to be super easy. Just hang on the ledge and knock him back with bairs until the stock is gone.

VS. Villager :4villager:
Don'ts
Don't throw fireballs
Don't attempt to edge gaurd
Run away from trees
Do not get knocked off

Do's
Stay within dash grab range.
Up b if you spot dodge/roll behind a ball drop
Mix up how you deal with on stage rockets: they like to dash grab and sh fair to cover your options.
Focus 100% of your energy to getting the kill when he's coming back on stage from the ledge, this is the easiest time to kill him because it's one of the only times you don't have to worry about rockets.
Now Villager sucks. He moves alright, but his gyroids and slingshots create a nasty wall against Luigi. Gyroids linger longer than you think too, so don't spotdodge. I can't remember if Nair clanks them out, although I don't think so. If Luigi is recovering low with tornado, a bowling ball kills him instantly. If he's using missile, slingshot with kill him. So recovery high, not low or medium. At least you have a chance to live with Villager's random damage on turnips. Fireballs are useless thanks to trees and pocket. Tornado is canned by slingshot and gyroids. Villager cannot be gimped recovery ever [then again, who can?]. Very, very tough. You though Rosalina was hard? At least once you get in she's D throw to Up B bait and dies early with few defensive options without Luma. Villager is just average here. But it's everything else that makes this hard. One of Luigi's worst, i not his worst all together .65:35 Villager. I've never struggled against anyone else to this level. [No 85:25s or anything because this isn't MK vs Luigi in Brawl lol.]
VS. Shulk :4shulk:

TORNADO is amazing vs. shulk. I had trouble with that match until I started spamming tornado, when he short hopped on me, I would tornado past him, by pass his fair, and punish him on his landing. When he whiffed an air attack, tornado punish, whiffed a smashed, tornado punish, roll away or behind, tornado reads, when he was in the air, up air because shulk doesn't play around, but up beats anything he wants to do, sometimes you can nair him if he spot dodges the up air.

I find smash attacks useless against shulk. Sometimes when they're slacking you can find an up smash, and down smash is always handy, but f smash will whiff because of how much range shulk has over you, but jab/grab/d smash are amazing when you're in close because they showcase how slow shulks moves are.

I find it hard to land grabs against him because of how far his moves, so I primarily stick to d smash, up air, nair, and tornado vs. him.
I know Luigi like the back of my hand; I've played this character for years to know his intricacies, strengths, and weaknesses.

Shulk
Range and out-spacing; these are two key things Shulk has advantage over Luigi. You want to out-space this against Luigi as he can't get in on you or has trouble doing so. The key moves to use are his tilts, nair, fair, and bair.
Luigi doesn't have too many weaknesses as he is a pretty balanced character like Mario is. As a result, I find all of the Monado Arts to be useful in this fight. Jump can be useful for Shulk getting away from Luigi and get some off-stage kills that Luigi can't prevent. Speed can put pressure on Luigi and can easily out-space him. While Luigi has a lot of good kill moves, he struggles against Shield and his combos are kinda weakened. Buster is effective as Luigi will have a harder time if you space it properly; just be careful because if you get grabbed in Buster, you will definitely lose your lead (more on that later). Smash is good if Luigi is at later percents; don't use this if you are at a high percentage.
While I mentioned that Luigi is a balanced character, he has two glaring weaknesses. First, his traction is terrible. Using his shield is very risky in many situations as Luigi can be pushed off the stage and get meteored by someone (this happened to me). Second, his recovery is kinda predictable and can be gimped. Luigi's air speed isn't a major factor here besides Shulk having an easier time comboing him; you can't pressure Luigi with your own ground or air speed in this fight (this is why the Little Mac match-up is tough, Little Mac can pressure Luigi with his ground speed and powerful attacks)
Despite this, Luigi has some major strengths against Shulk and this is why Shulk's air speed is key here; his down throw is godly. Luigi has a ton of follow-up moves that he can do against opponents at earlier percents and later percents, making him very unpredictable in that regard. If you are careless with Buster, you will take more damage from Luigi's barrage of combos alone.
One more key thing you want to do here is pressure him by spacing and pivoting your side tilt and grabs. Doing so, Luigi will have a hard time responding to each of these moves and will struggle against him as a result.

Luigi
I know that some might say that Shulk has the advantage here; I beg to differ. While Shulk has a lot of good tools against Luigi, they don't outright destroy them. Let me explain...
His key approaches are his Fireballs, Luigi Cyclone, and short hop aerials. His Fireballs will stun the opponent, allowing him to rush in and grab them; it also provides some spacing between him and Shulk. The Luigi Cyclone twirls foes about and can set up some combos for Luigi. His aerials are also incredible as Luigi can short hop and use them to pressure Shulk. He might also do some empty jumps to get a clean grab in. Another useful tool is nair; this move isn't as powerful as it was in Brawl, but Luigi can use it to space between him and Shulk and, if Shulk gets hit by it, Luigi might follow up with an attack.
In my opinion, Luigi's worst match-ups come from characters who destroy his approaches; Mr. Game & Watch severely hinders his Fireballs with Oil Panic and Little Mac just puts endless amounts of pressure on Luigi and Luigi has a tough time following up on him. Shulk weakens his Fireball and short hop aerials, but Luigi can use the Luigi Cyclone to his advantage against Shulk.
His down throw is scary against Shulk; at earlier percents, Shulk is combo meat for Luigi and can follow up with fairs, spiked dairs, uairs, and up-tilts. Luigi particularly struggles against Shulk at later percents, but know that Luigi has some good tools that he can use to kill Shulk with his down throw. He can use nair, bair, the Super Jump Punch, the Luigi Cyclone (or, as a tournament called it, the "Hoo-Hah-nado"), or even not go in the air and use a smash attack.
As Shulk, don't spam smash attacks. Luigi can use Shulk's end-lag on those moves to his advantage to punish Shulk and do massive amounts of damage with a good smash attack, Super Jump Punch, or a down throw combo.
Luigi will possibly never attack you off-stage. He might use bairs or dairs (or maybe even the Luigi Cyclone), but that's about it. His range is weak and he has a hard time gimping characters in general. Luigi mains, mix-up your recoveries here if you can or else you might face some terrible consequences as Shulk is amazing off-stage.

Stages
Luigi heavily benefits from platforms; a stage like Battlefield, Smashville, and Town & City would be good for him. Luigi's performance at Final Destination is questionable.
For Shulk mains, I wouldn't be too afraid to bring Luigi to Battlefield for one good reason; Shulk's edge-guarding. If you down tilt against Luigi, he has limited options. Maybe he can roll back on, but you might follow-up on him. He can jump, but Shulk's up tilt is largely benefited here as it can go through Battlefield's platforms. Duck Hunt is also a good stage against Luigi because his Fireballs are weakened thanks to the Ducks and the higher ceiling makes it harder for Luigi to grab some vertical KOs (Luigi is more of a vertical killer).

Overall
I say that both sides have their strengths and weaknesses.
On one hand, Shulk has amazing spacing and pressure that can be used against Luigi. On the other hand, Shulk is basically combo meat for Luigi early on and can struggle against him.
I think this match-up is 50:50. If not... 55:45... Luigi. I've faced really good Shulks and my fair share of mediocre ones, but he hasn't been a character that I am afraid of to fight against with Luigi, unlike a character such as Mr. Game & Watch and Little Mac. Shulk's spacing is incredible, but I think that Luigi just has some good pros against Shulk.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm going with a 50:50 on this one for sure. Luigi can butcher Shulk, but Shulk can limit Luigi in certain situations.
I wouldn't say this match-up is 100% in Shulks favor. I'd like to wager it's at least 50/50. I also can't agree with Luigi having trouble using fireballs as much as he wants. Against a character that doesn't also have a projectile, what's to stop me from fireball camping to my hearts content?

I think the one thing I have trouble with is the speed monado, because of quick follow-ups due to Luigi's terrible air speed, but in that case, the Luigi player is being approached which is definitely what we want. However, I'd be careful using shield monado too often. Up-tilt is an EXTREMELY good option for heavier characters, which I just discovered today after finding a combo that can get DK from 0-60%.

Also, keep in mind Luigi isn't always forced to recover low. Against characters that can go just as deep as I can, I have no problem recovering very high. Especially on platform stages.

Now I can understand it being 40/60 in favor of Shulk if the Luigi is over aggressive and constantly fishing for grabs and up smashes because that's his problem against every fast character but overall, I think you guys are assuming that over aggressive approaching Luigi is the only way to play him.

In terms of stages, I actually very much dislike Delfino, Battlefield, and Duck Hunt.
My favored ones are Halberd, Town And City, Smashville, and Lylat.


VS. Mega Man :4megaman:
[Moves not to use]
1. Neutral B (AKA Fireball) - The big and obvious reason fireballs will not work against Megaman is due all the projectiles he has at his use (mega buster, crash bomb, and metal blade). Due to all of these options megaman has, ranged combat is completely out of the question.
2.Down B (Luigi Cyclone) - same reason as with the fireballs, Megaman's will cancel your cyclone and you will become exposed to a serious beating, Blue Bomber style. You may still be able to sneak this move in, but don't rely on this move for movement.
3.Up B (WeeGee Uppercut) - I know, this can be said against any opponent. The only reason I'm saying this is because of Megaman's up tilt (shoryuken!) and his side smash are both excellent kill move at lower percentages (80%). Use your up B at your own risk!

[Recovery options]
I'm just going to say this right now, you're not going to recover without a fight. Using side B to get closer to the course is easily punished by Megaman's Metal Blade. Also, make sure that you save your second jump for when it can grab the ledge. DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, GET DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH THE LEDGE!! This is a very easy punish since Megaman can easily Hard Knuckle (Meteor smash) you. If you can, try to stay above the ledge and drop down to grab it.

[Megaman on the ground]
The typical combo that is released from Megaman is a crash bomb to metal blade, the crash bomb being easy to shield and the metal blade can easily be grabbed, as long as said Megaman is still keeping their distance. As for his mega buster, it can be easily nullified with a shield or a well timed jab combo, allowing for an easy punish if Megaman is using his buster at too close a distance. The only ground move that you might have to be worried about is his dash attack. The only reason for this is if you shield expecting a dash attack and Megaman catches this, you will be grabbed and thrown airborne, which is where Megaman can became a problem. If you shield his dash attack, it can easily be punished with a pivot grab.

[Megaman's air attacks]
If you're above an airborne Megaman, expect to have a bad time. His Fair attack has superior range over any over your aerial moves, so do your best to air dodge behind him so you can gain a chance to land on the ground. Megaman's Bair is his main kill move. If you are at high percentage, expect to see this instead of the Fair. His UpAir attack will generally be saved to keep you in the air you're too far up to Fair or Bair. Megaman's UpAir can usually be avoided by falling in a "zig-zag" pattern, since Megaman usually has to shoot at where you will be instead of where you are. If you are below Megaman, it's time to keep hime up there. Megaman has no attack that can attack you effectively when you are below him. Typically an UpAir is your best method to keep him up there.

[To Summarize]
1.Don't rely on your neutral B and down B
2.Stay aggressive! Megaman beats you when it comes to ranged attacks.
3.Never come back to the map from directly underneath the ledge or directly horizontally, unless you want Megaman to side smash or hard knuckle you into oblivion.
4.Avoid fighting above him, this is where Megaman becomes dangerous.
5. Megaman is weak from underneath, keep juggling him in the air.

Megaman is no joke. In my opinion, Megaman has an advantage to Luigi players, but not by much. As long as you keep your cool and stay close at all times, victory should be yours.

VS. Pac-Man :4pacman:
Let's cover Pac Man today. Boy, this matchup is fairly annoying.

First, he'll outcamp Luigi, plain and simple. He is faster than Luigi mobility wise, so he's going to spend a lot of that time charging Keys [apples work well to gimp Luigi using a tornado too, along with hydrants]. Also, Luigi's dair spike is mostly nullified by trampoline. So in short, don't go too deep fighting offstage cause Pac Man is always prepared. Also Hydrant against Luigi on stage is a double edged sword. Due to Luigi's traction, the fire hydrant's water either sends him flying back, or if you use it right...it can send Luigi flying into Pac Man with a smash attack of your choice, U smash and D smash works great here with the extra momentum. Hydrants do block out fireballs though, and are hard to work around as Pac Man charges his projectile and pushes Luigi away. They are mostly a very infuriating tool. Tornado gets pushed back, too.

Pac Man's biggest weakness here is landing the kill, and Luigi can pull off quicker than Pac Man. Pac Man's kill moves asides from gimps are limited exclusively to Smash attacks and side B. His Smashes do have more range though, so be wary. Also, he isn't terribly hard to combo, so there's that.

This matchup is tricky due to how well Pac Man can keep Luigi away on the other side of the stage while spamming keys, and how easily he can gimp Luigi off stage. Luigi can kill earlier on stage and in the air though, and he still has his combos. Play smart, and use the hydrant to your advantage by using it to approach Pac Man.

60:40 Pac Man.
Pac Man is one of my most dreaded matches because of how frustrating it can get. After losing to Luigi in CQC Pac Man will run to the other side of the stage and attempt to time out Luigi with fruit, hydrants, and trampolines. And I have been timed out by more Pac Mans than I'd like to admit. I've also had trouble edge guarding Pac.

His much better mobility can make it a nightmare to chase him down on large stages, so I'd always take him to Battle field or Smashville to start instead of T&C or FD in order to force a closer ranged fight. The extra platforms also help stuff the hydrant. Lylat is also really nice because again, platforms and small stage really help.

Completely agreeing that Pac has the advantage. Maybe 60:40, maybe 55:45. I'm not entirely sure if it really is as bad as it feels or if it's just match up inexperience in the early metagame. Either way, definitely a match to aim for early KOs.
 
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Yonder

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Good call making this, the match-up information for Luigi is too scattered around in individual threads.
 

Wa_Black

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Up b does not work in front of shiek, you have to be behind her for it to connect.
 

GreenFlame

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What's the opinion on the Bowser match-up? We have some material to study off of with Boss' recent matches against a Bowser player.
 

Wa_Black

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What's the opinion on the Bowser match-up? We have some material to study off of with Boss' recent matches against a Bowser player.
I consider Bowser to be Up B bait. With him, Ike, and sometimes Ganon, I just wait until they do something, roll behind, and up b them. There moves tend to have a lot of lag, so we can get free up b's and tornadoes for when they are two far.
Also combos work better on heavies. I believe the d throw dair combo works on bowser at most percentages.

I would say this match is in our favor, the only thing that we have to watch out for is that we can't punish a lot of bowser attacks because of pushback on shield, but roll behinds and spot dodges fix that. Not so much spot dodges because Luigi lacks range, unless you spot dodge and do a perfect pivot to close the distance.
 

GreenFlame

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I consider Bowser to be Up B bait. With him, Ike, and sometimes Ganon, I just wait until they do something, roll behind, and up b them. There moves tend to have a lot of lag, so we can get free up b's and tornadoes for when they are two far.
Also combos work better on heavies. I believe the d throw dair combo works on bowser at most percentages.

I would say this match is in our favor, the only thing that we have to watch out for is that we can't punish a lot of bowser attacks because of pushback on shield, but roll behinds and spot dodges fix that. Not so much spot dodges because Luigi lacks range, unless you spot dodge and do a perfect pivot to close the distance.
I agree with you on this, he's too heavy and slow to do much and it also makes him a big target and combo food. If you saw one of Boss' matches with a Bowser, you may have seen that he punished the Bowser doing Fire Breath in the wrong direction by using Up-B.
 
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Wa_Black

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I agree with you on this, he's too heavy and slow to do much and it also makes him a big target and combo food. If you saw one of Boss' matches with a Bowser, you may have seen that he punished the Bowser doing Fire Breath in the wrong direction by using Up-B.
Even fire breath? I'd hate to bowser in that match.

Vs. Shulk
TORNADO is amazing vs. shulk. I had trouble with that match until I started spamming tornado, when he short hopped on me, I would tornado past him, by pass his fair, and punish him on his landing. When he whiffed an air attack, tornado punish, whiffed a smashed, tornado punish, roll away or behind, tornado reads, when he was in the air, up air because shulk doesn't play around, but up beats anything he wants to do, sometimes you can nair him if he spot dodges the up air.

I find smash attacks useless against shulk. Sometimes when they're slacking you can find an up smash, and down smash is always handy, but f smash will whiff because of how much range shulk has over you, but jab/grab/d smash are amazing when you're in close because they showcase how slow shulks moves are.

I find it hard to land grabs against him because of how far his moves, so I primarily stick to d smash, up air, nair, and tornado vs. him.
 

Turbopasta

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I had the privilege of fighting a very skilled Mario player with no lag on For Glory for around an hour earlier today. It really opened my eyes to how powerful Mario is against certain opponents.

For example, I play a lot of Shulk, but my Shulk was so bad against him. His attacks have crazy priority, and getting around his fireballs is a massive pain when he's playing defensively. Shulk also gets juggled to around 40% off one grab regardless of monado art, if I'm not mistaken. He also successfully gimped me countless times with FLUDD since it's so hard to sweetspot his recovery.

I'm starting to get off-topic here, so I'll just say that I got frustrated and switched to Luigi, one of my other mains. Some things I noticed:

  • It shouldn't come as a surprise, but Mario has superior harass and zoning abilities with his fireballs, since gravity is applied to them.
  • Cyclone is absolutely mandatory in this match-up. It's practically the only way your moves will out-prioritize some of his
  • His F-smash also has far more range and can be used to punish Luigi's
  • One thing that's really important in this matchup is maintaining composure. Mario is likely going to be hitting you all game, but his attacks don't do very much damage. Luigi can get about 40% from a single combo, always keep that in mind.
  • Try to recover low with cyclone if you can do it safely. FLUDD is too much of a hassle to deal with when the Mario knows how to use it properly, best just to avoid it.
  • Pretty much the only time you can punish with uppercut is if Mario whiffs an up special, or if you throw him and he doesn't DI out of the way. The guy I fought covered these options every time so I had to get more creative with kill options. Dthrow into jump into cyclone is a pretty good kill option at around 120%.

This is all based off my person experience, so I could be wrong with some things here.
 

hey_there

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Does anyone have tips/high level gameplay videos to help against Villager? I am finding this to be my most dreaded match up.
 

Wa_Black

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Does anyone have tips/high level gameplay videos to help against Villager? I am finding this to be my most dreaded match up.
Don'ts
Don't throw fireballs
Don't attempt to edge gaurd
Run away from trees
Do not get knocked off

Do's
Stay within dash grab range.
Up b if you spot dodge/roll behind a ball drop
Mix up how you deal with on stage rockets: they like to dash grab and sh fair to cover your options.
Focus 100% of your energy to getting the kill when he's coming back on stage from the ledge, this is the easiest time to kill him because it's one of the only times you don't have to worry about rockets.

What we as community need to find for this match
The best way to edge gaurd: Dealing with off stage rockets (staying on and getting off), ledge drop fairs, and up b.
The best way to deal with on stage rocket mix ups
The best way to recover against him
Punish: whiff punishes, roll away punishes, out of shield punsihes, what to spot dodge, what to bait, etc.

I believe this is an extremely annoying match, but the game has strong fundamentals, so if we could gather some information on Villager then we can make the match much easier.
 

L9L

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I'm having trouble with Little Mac. My issues:

  • Optimal responses to a shielded tilt/smash. Luigi gets pushed too far back for a dash grab, so that cuts out my favorite option.
  • Getting gimped from my recovery. Dsmash will knock Luigi out of Up B before he snaps to the ledge. I've been able to mix-up recovery with cyclone, double jump, and Up B, but if there is any hidden tech I'd love to hear it.
  • Punishing rolls. Dsmash and nair have allowed me to punish rolling on other characters in the past, but Mac's roll takes him just out of my range.
  • Applying pressure in general. Fireballs can be unsafe at most ranges and Mac's nair can help him escape grab follow-ups.
I don't feel like it's a losing match for Luigi, so I'd really like to explore the match and see just what can be done. I'll try to grab some videos the next time I play the Mac who's giving me trouble and hopefully those will help contribute to the conversation.
 

hey_there

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I believe this is an extremely annoying match, but the game has strong fundamentals, so if we could gather some information on Villager then we can make the match much easier.
Thank you very much! Villager has been a brutal match up, completing negating my off-stage game and being frustating to approach due to strong zoning. I've noticed that I can cyclone in right as he spawns lloid because it takes a second to become 'active', but it's not always reliable. I'll keep these things in mind next time I come across one. I definitely think Villager is one of the harder match ups.

I'm having trouble with Little Mac. My issues:

  • Optimal responses to a shielded tilt/smash. Luigi gets pushed too far back for a dash grab, so that cuts out my favorite option.
  • Getting gimped from my recovery. Dsmash will knock Luigi out of Up B before he snaps to the ledge. I've been able to mix-up recovery with cyclone, double jump, and Up B, but if there is any hidden tech I'd love to hear it.
  • Punishing rolls. Dsmash and nair have allowed me to punish rolling on other characters in the past, but Mac's roll takes him just out of my range.
  • Applying pressure in general. Fireballs can be unsafe at most ranges and Mac's nair can help him escape grab follow-ups.
1. Jump or fireball. Fireball covers right in front of you, letting you build some space and get back to neutral. You can also jump and prepare to assault him with aerials or a falling cyclone. He can run up and shield, waiting to punish, but you can just empty jump and grab.
2. Recover lower. Mac has no off-stage game, so just missile until below the ledge, jump and up b. It will auto snap to the ledge and he won't gimp you with dsmash anymore.
3&4. Cyclone! Cyclone is great in this match because it lets you keep up with his rolls and keep pressure on him the entire match. As a bonus, it pops him up for easy follow ups. Just stay near the ground when he's coming down and you can grab him to keep the combos going. dthrow -> bair hits hard and gets him off the stage at mid percents, giving good opportunities to gimp.

I hope that helps!
 
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GreenFlame

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Thank you very much! Villager has been a brutal match up, completing negating my off-stage game and being frustating to approach due to strong zoning. I've noticed that I can cyclone in right as he spawns lloid because it takes a second to become 'active', but it's not always reliable. I'll keep these things in mind next time I come across one. I definitely think Villager is one of the harder match ups.


1. Jump or fireball. Fireball covers right in front of you, letting you build some space and get back to neutral. You can also jump and prepare to assault him with aerials or a falling cyclone. He can run up and shield, waiting to punish, but you can just empty jump and grab.
2. Recover lower. Mac has no off-stage game, so just missile until below the ledge, jump and up b. It will auto snap to the ledge and he won't gimp you with dsmash anymore.
3&4. Cyclone! Cyclone is great in this match because it lets you keep up with his rolls and keep pressure on him the entire match. As a bonus, it pops him up for easy follow ups. Just stay near the ground when he's coming down and you can grab him to keep the combos going. dthrow -> bair hits hard and gets him off the stage at mid percents, giving good opportunities to gimp.

I hope that helps!
I like what you said, I'd just like to say that fighting Mac in general is an annoying fight, and if the Mac is careful they can easily take your stock.

One of his annoying traits is super armor on his Smash attacks. What it means usually, is that any pressure you have up close doesn't mean as much on Mac as other characters. He can just whip out a Smash whenever you attack him, an up-smash if you try to apporach from the air, a d-smash if you try to go in to attack, etc. It's something you have to watch out for, and a good counter to his Smashes (since shielding will send Luigi sliding away) is spot-dodging and then grabbing. That's why I recommend everyone practices the timing of their spotdodge (luckily Luigi's is fairly quick) in case you have to fight a good Mac.
 

Yonder

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Not going to lie, the Mac matchup got a lot better thanks to his side b nerf recovery, which was nice. One back throw and a fair, or one D throw and a dair = dead Mac. Not to say it's easy though.
 

L9L

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Good stuff on the Mac matchup, everybody. I agree that smart use of the fireball and cyclone are key to the neutral game vs. Mac. I've also had success using reverse u-smash if Mac tries to side B or dash attack in.

As a final note, and it may seem obvious, but I think stage selection will be important vs. Mac as well. Battlefield and Duck Hunt feel like the safest picks to me, but I'm sure there are arguments for different stages. Thanks again for the help!
 

Woker!

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I´ll say the rob match up is kinda hard for Luigi, its similar to the villager match up, those giros are so annoying, and if the rob player knows how to camp you well, you will really have a bad day againts rob...
the things I do againts him is:
-Try not to shield his giro, why? cuz every time you cover the giro, it will desapear, so rob can use it again, and again, and agan, I think spot dodge is a better opcion, and if you can get the giro, just throw that **** up, that way rob will not use it againts you.
- robs nair, bair, dair, fsmash and lazer beats our tornado, so be careful at that, specially when you are recovering.
the good part of this match up is that rob doesnt have faste aereals, and his just to big, so yeah, we can combo him a lot.
dthrow to:
- nair: dies at 148%
-up b: dies at 110%
-bair: 147%
-tornado: 143%
(these where tested at final destination vs a cpu, bair was tested from the middle of final).

so yeah, the hard part of this match up is getting near to rob, specially if the rob player knows how to camp you well, when your are near him, be careful with his dtilt, its to fast and can clash with your jabs and ftilt, also, his fsmash has a lot of range.
but once you are in his face, o boy, combos all day baby :D
 

iFezZz

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Does anyone have advice on how to beat or at least make the matchup better against Rosalina? she is so hard to beat as Luigi. I really need help.
 

busken

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Does anyone have advice on how to beat or at least make the matchup better against Rosalina? she is so hard to beat as Luigi. I really need help.
Spacing

Spacing out your moves are great because this allows you hit her without being in range for her to punish, as well as keeping her approach options honest. Perfect pivoting into uptilt, dsmash, and ftilt are probably your best ground options, while short hop/fullhop fireball and bair are good aerial options.


Cyclone

Cyclone is great this match up because it pressures all of her defensive options.

Roll- punished
Spot dodge- punished
Shield- cyclone's mobility allows you to move into a different area
Jump- punished

From my experience, the match up isn't really that hard. Once you get done how to approach rosaluma is combo food. If you get her to respect your aerials, she will resort to either spot dodge, shield, or roll which can be punishable with cyclone. More often then not, she will always try to avoid getting grabbed which means she will either roll or spot dodge. You can counteract this by dash attack, pivot grab, or cyclone.
 
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Lexiconz

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Nov 25, 2014
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So hi guys !! i was playing around with some friends.. 2 to be exact, one falcon main and the other Rob main, as the captain falcon matchup i think its almost 50/50 .. it comes down to whos get the better reads.. but the rob matchup is very annoying. i know Worker! has already gave some tips but i would state some things i noticed ,cause we have played like 100 matches or so.. and i have lost most of them.. i will state here the problems that i found and lets see if you guys can see a way through them :D

-The approach part is very hard.. and even getting to him.. he can easily just down smash or just space me out with his nair , fair, and bair, almost everything has more range. And i cant get a shieldgrab off, cause his bair and nair almost push me too far away from him
-i Think the biggest problem for me was, when he throw me in the air , he can punish me really hard, his upair is very difficult to airdog bcs its multi hit.. and my nair dont outclass his upair... and then his up smash the same thing.... and when recovering.. the edge guarding with his f-smash is very good.. even coming back with fires..
I would like to know.. what you guys think is the best way to avoid the air punishment, the recovery and on the ground.. best way to approach.... that are my main problems against rob..

Thanks for those who can help :) and sorry if my english isn't só good.. isn't my strongest :p
 

PokÉmblem

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Can someone tell me the luigi v Rosalina match up, EVERYTIME I PLAY ON FOR GLORY I GET THAT MATCHUP IT SEEMS LIKE. I'm always the luigi and I find going in with a luigi cyclone is good but can you guys give me some tips on that match up please?
 

GreenFlame

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Can someone tell me the luigi v Rosalina match up, EVERYTIME I PLAY ON FOR GLORY I GET THAT MATCHUP IT SEEMS LIKE. I'm always the luigi and I find going in with a luigi cyclone is good but can you guys give me some tips on that match up please?
Here is the thread we had about it. Don't post in that thread, if you want to post about Luigi's match-ups it belongs in this thread we're in right now.
 

PokÉmblem

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It's glad to know that everyone agrees that luigi has a crappy match up to rosalina and it's not me.
Anyway, thanks for linking the thread
 

GreenFlame

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It's glad to know that everyone agrees that luigi has a crappy match up to rosalina and it's not me.
Anyway, thanks for linking the thread
No problem. Also, while the match-up is bad for Luigi, it's not awful for him. Rosalina has a range advantage and good offstage game, but that's pretty much it.
 

PokÉmblem

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No problem. Also, while the match-up is bad for Luigi, it's not awful for him. Rosalina has a range advantage and good offstage game, but that's pretty much it.
Yeah it seems like destroying the luma is a major part for a weegee win and going in for a cyclone or a grab.
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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Greninja and Mario are my current obstacles and hardest match-ups for me.

The Mario match-up seems to be about patience. He can do almost everything Luigi can do but better.
  • His Nair beats Luigi's.
  • His Dair cyclone has a lot of priority and very little lag
  • He can use fireballs freely on Luigi while Luigi can't do the same
  • Better air speed
  • Better range on Fsmash
  • Mario Up b has more practical use in this match-up
Again, this is about patience. Don't try to play rushdown, grab-happy Luigi. Play the neutral game and wait for Mario to commit too hard. Fairs are great in this match-up. They can beat Mario's Nair if he sticks it out early. Throw in some Cyclones against his approaches. They will pretty much always connect. Edgeuarding is key here too. A good hit after his double jump and he won't recover. These are my general strategies against him but it's still tough for me to beat him so anything else is greatly appreciated

Now on to Greninja:

Greninja's speed is what I have the most trouble with. I am easily overwhelmed and start throwing out jabs and Dsmashes hoping to get an opening. Greninja essentially has a Luigi fireball that can be used faster, moves faster, and can be charged. This makes Luigi's fireball useless. Luigi being in the air is very bad in the match-up. Greninja can harass with Uairs and Bairs. Also, it can stalk you from below and try to get an Usmash that covers a ridiculous amount of range. When put in the air, try to save your jump and weave in and out to get to the stage safely. Even going for the ledge can be unsafe because Usmash covers the sides of Greninja or it can fall offstage and stage spike with Bair. Mix in cyclones to help. Other than that, I'm not really sure how to put a solid offense on Greninja. Any help here too is much appreciated.
 

GreenFlame

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I feel as though Mario doesn't have much answer to Luigi when they're both in the air. I know Mario's got some similar aerials that are somewhat quick (except for f-air), but Luigi's f-air can slap Mario repeatedly and help you shut him down in the air. Also keeep in mind Mario is a bit lacking in damage output.

Mario is somewhat dangerous if you're offstage, so it's safer to recover low to avoid FLUDD, a f-air spike, or the cape. But remember that you can hit him with one f-air at mid percents after he's used his second jump, and that's the stock.
 

A2ZOMG

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imo, Mario beats Luigi in a customs settings because he gets to outcamp Luigi with Fast Fireballs and Gust Cape. Outside of that, I'd argue 55/45 Luigi's advantage. Mario can still be annoying by running away and spacing Smashes which are safe on Luigi's shield, and his FLUDD and Cape still work well for harassing his recovery. However Luigi's way better Jab, D-throw, and way superior damage and KO options make this a hard matchup for Mario.
 

TriTails

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Mario gave me trouble, due to the fact he has much better air speed and his U-tilt combo. But I'd be lying if I say this MU is in Mario's favor. At least, for now.

The thing is, Mario's Fireballs are a problem. They shut down Luigi's own Fireballs approaches, so Luigi must get through his Fireballs, first.

However, Mario, while he is faster than Luigi, he is lacking on damage output. Luigi has better grab game and punish game, so this match is about whoever gets in first. I'd say Luigi is much scarier when he gets in because of.... well, his D-throw. Mario's U-tilts combo seem escapable by Luigi. I have, cancelled it out halfway with N-air. Yep, he can, and when you land, you may get a free grab.

And also, it may be just me, but FLUDD seem useless to Luigi. The thing is, whenever I clash Green Missile with FLUDD, Luigi got sent UPWARDS. Can anyone confirm this? Because it's just how it happened to me.

So yeah, Mario can only gimp Green Missile with Cape, which Luigi don't have to worry about it too much as long as he has his double jump (Or if you are a boss, jumpless Cyclone), as he can just Cyclone back and probably to Mario's face.

Luigi arguably beats Mario in the air here, his F-air can slap Mario repeatedly, and his B-air got more power. Just be aware of his D-air.

Mario also lacks KO moves, and the only reliable ones are U-smash and F-smash (F-air and B-throw are a bit situational), while Luigi has a ton of 'em. Although, his F-smash kills earlier than Luigi, and it got some range. I would watch out for it along with his U-smash.

Mario's recovery is worse than Luigi, that is undoubtable. A single interrupt in his double jump may be enough to cost him a stock. Meanwhile, while Mario has better gimping tools, Luigi himself is a bit..... hard to gimp. Mario cannot go deep to gimp with his poor recovery, and even if he did, he isn't blocking Luigi Cyclone without FLUDD. I usually recover directly below the ledge to make his gimp harder.

Overall, it's pretty even. I would give this MU 50/50 in nobody's advantage because it's all about who approaches successfully first. Both bros are great at punishing, and they are pretty on par in ground combat. Of course, this is my opinion, feel free to argue with me, because you pros should has better knowledge about this.
 

Yonder

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Mario gave me trouble, due to the fact he has much better air speed and his U-tilt combo. But I'd be lying if I say this MU is in Mario's favor. At least, for now.

The thing is, Mario's Fireballs are a problem. They shut down Luigi's own Fireballs approaches, so Luigi must get through his Fireballs, first.

However, Mario, while he is faster than Luigi, he is lacking on damage output. Luigi has better grab game and punish game, so this match is about whoever gets in first. I'd say Luigi is much scarier when he gets in because of.... well, his D-throw. Mario's U-tilts combo seem escapable by Luigi. I have, cancelled it out halfway with N-air. Yep, he can, and when you land, you may get a free grab.

And also, it may be just me, but FLUDD seem useless to Luigi. The thing is, whenever I clash Green Missile with FLUDD, Luigi got sent UPWARDS. Can anyone confirm this? Because it's just how it happened to me.

So yeah, Mario can only gimp Green Missile with Cape, which Luigi don't have to worry about it too much as long as he has his double jump (Or if you are a boss, jumpless Cyclone), as he can just Cyclone back and probably to Mario's face.

Luigi arguably beats Mario in the air here, his F-air can slap Mario repeatedly, and his B-air got more power. Just be aware of his D-air.

Mario also lacks KO moves, and the only reliable ones are U-smash and F-smash (F-air and B-throw are a bit situational), while Luigi has a ton of 'em. Although, his F-smash kills earlier than Luigi, and it got some range. I would watch out for it along with his U-smash.

Mario's recovery is worse than Luigi, that is undoubtable. A single interrupt in his double jump may be enough to cost him a stock. Meanwhile, while Mario has better gimping tools, Luigi himself is a bit..... hard to gimp. Mario cannot go deep to gimp with his poor recovery, and even if he did, he isn't blocking Luigi Cyclone without FLUDD. I usually recover directly below the ledge to make his gimp harder.

Overall, it's pretty even. I would give this MU 50/50 in nobody's advantage because it's all about who approaches successfully first. Both bros are great at punishing, and they are pretty on par in ground combat. Of course, this is my opinion, feel free to argue with me, because you pros should has better knowledge about this.

Cool, I've seen you on Gamefaqs.

Anyways, this feels like a 50/50 to me anyways. All my matches against a Mario boil down to the 100% of the last stock. Luigi has the advantage is the air, fair is quicker than anything Mario has. Nair breaks out of Mario's u tilt combos instantly. Mario does outspeed Luigi mobility wise, and Luigi's projectiles suffer from the cape, which Mario can freely use his. Mario only really has F Smash for his killing move which becomes predictable and stale, Luigi has a lot more options there, along with his D throw to set them up. A good Mario can gimp Luigi with a cape + a fireball for tornado. A good Luigi can spike Mario in time before he uses his Up B, Mario will need both jumps just to make it back. Luigi has a tad more range due to longer limbs, cept F smash. Oh, I do notice that Mario's damage output is...pretty sucky compared to Luigi's.

So generally=

Mobility: Mario
Offstage: Mario
Onstage: Luigi
Recovery: Luigi

I think it's a even match to me. Mario is going to want to avoid getting comboed by Luigi and getting hit with a variety of kill moves, while Luigi is going to want to not go offstage at all of face being gimped, while adapting to a constrained use of fireballs and adjusting to being outsped movement wise.

Verdict: 50/50
 
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STiCKYBULL3TZ

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Great stuff guys! Yeah I'm still on the fence about the Mario match up. I would give slight advantage to Mario but that's a biased opinion because I lose to most Marios. Maybe I'll feel better about it once I up my game and can handle Mario a little better.

What do you guys think about Greninja? Anytime I lose to someone I feel like I made mistakes but when I lose to a good Greninja, I feel like I literally can't do anything.
 

A2ZOMG

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Most of the Mario mains from the Mario boards have had difficulty against Luigi in tournament. Personally, I believe it's a close matchup on default settings, but only if the Mario wants to force it to be a really long game. It's also pretty hard to deny how useful Luigi's KO confirms out of D-throw are, while Mario has to rely on edgeguarding or generic reads with his Smashes to get KOs.

I believe Mario DOES win on a custom setting, where his tools to camp the matchup become more reliable. Just generally speaking, I'd argue this is a really lame matchup in this game. Mario basically has no incentive to really ever interact with Luigi given the ludicrous difference in damage output they have in this game.
 
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TriTails

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Greninja is very jumpy, which makes it hard for Weegee.

Fireballs won't stop fully charged Water Shuriken, and Greninja has rangey smashes. I have not seen much of him, but...

We must stop his jumps somehow. Luigi Cyclone is punishable, but I think that is our only reliable option. Or we MAY be able to use dashing U-smash, but I'm not sure.

Next, we has to grab him. His Shadow Sneak is teleghraphed, so shield and grab him if possible. His Counter sucks, but Luigi has high end lag attacks also, so we must be careful to not Cyclone to his Counter.

Fireballs are pretty vital for this MU, but don't try to clash it with Water Shurikens. Fuly charged version travels slower and shorter, but it's surprisingly powerful, shield is our best option. It also eats our Fireballs.

His speed is a problem. But hey, try throwing out Fireballs anyway. His Shurikens need to be charged to neutralize our Fireballs, so get outta there by jumping or shield it.

Luigi will dominate in the air as long as he can keep things under control. This is applicable to almost all MUs. Just watch out for his own. I kinda forgot what are his F-air and B-air, but try to not get caught in that U-air.

If you are seeing him trying to push us with Hydro Pump, I'd suggest to read when and what direction he aims, then Cyclone and go for the ledge. SJP has invincibility during the rise, so as long as you don't shot through the ledge, recovering from below seems to be our best bet. Although, just mix your recovery for most part, to me, Hydro Pump is more annoying than I thought.

Try to pressure him and don't let him has a room to do his tricks. I rarely seen Greninjas online, so sprry if I got some things wrong.

About MU ratios, I dunno for now. I'd say it's in Greninja's advantage though.
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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Greninja is very jumpy, which makes it hard for Weegee.

Fireballs won't stop fully charged Water Shuriken, and Greninja has rangey smashes. I have not seen much of him, but...

We must stop his jumps somehow. Luigi Cyclone is punishable, but I think that is our only reliable option. Or we MAY be able to use dashing U-smash, but I'm not sure.

Next, we has to grab him. His Shadow Sneak is teleghraphed, so shield and grab him if possible. His Counter sucks, but Luigi has high end lag attacks also, so we must be careful to not Cyclone to his Counter.

Fireballs are pretty vital for this MU, but don't try to clash it with Water Shurikens. Fuly charged version travels slower and shorter, but it's surprisingly powerful, shield is our best option. It also eats our Fireballs.

His speed is a problem. But hey, try throwing out Fireballs anyway. His Shurikens need to be charged to neutralize our Fireballs, so get outta there by jumping or shield it.

Luigi will dominate in the air as long as he can keep things under control. This is applicable to almost all MUs. Just watch out for his own. I kinda forgot what are his F-air and B-air, but try to not get caught in that U-air.

If you are seeing him trying to push us with Hydro Pump, I'd suggest to read when and what direction he aims, then Cyclone and go for the ledge. SJP has invincibility during the rise, so as long as you don't shot through the ledge, recovering from below seems to be our best bet. Although, just mix your recovery for most part, to me, Hydro Pump is more annoying than I thought.

Try to pressure him and don't let him has a room to do his tricks. I rarely seen Greninjas online, so sprry if I got some things wrong.

About MU ratios, I dunno for now. I'd say it's in Greninja's advantage though.
The neutral game is super important here. Shurikens beat fireball so Luigi is forced to be the aggressor in a MU where he wouldn't want to be. Greninja can punish just about anything Luigi commits to. Shuriken pressure would make you want to jump but it's not a good idea because Greninja's speed plus crazy Usmash will destroy Luigi in the air. Once you get hit it's easy to get overwhelmed. Greninja will be throwing aerials and Usmashes like mad. I would suggest a hit and run method here (I've never tried it but it sounds good lol). Kill moves are tough to get off but a back throw or Dthrow->Nair are probably the easiest solutions. IMO this MU is definitely in Greninja's favor. Not impossible for Luigi but very difficult.
 

TriTails

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Eh, Shurikens can be shielded, and the thing is, he may be able to run for a grab. Maybe we can try jump + Luigi Cyclone or aerials, but again, I have little experience with this MU, so I dunno much.

However, I think we can air dodge the U-smash and punish him with a grab in the lag. And about his aerials, try Luigi Cyclone. Hopefully, it will clash and Luigi win it, cancelling his aerials and then we can proceed to offensive.

Shurikens CAN be cancelled. As long as it doesn't grow into crazy size. Fireballs have surprisingly high priority.

And also, for kill move, you can try to bait an airdodge with D-throw and U-smash them. Works for players who are air-dodge happy. So basically D-throw + they air dodge + U-smash. Be careful for Counters though!

And also, Luigi also can punish Greninja. His Shadow Sneak leaves him vunerable when shielded, and his jumps can be punished with Luigi Cyclone. Punish Counter with grabs, obviously.

I have problem with Greninja, but I don't think it's as bad as Sheik. Those needles maaaaaannnnnn..... Ratios...... I'd say something like 70/30. I don't find him as threathening as Sheik or Lucario, but he is definitely tough.

I need to study him more. The others who has experienced 'Gekkouga' (lol) should know more than me.
 

FalKoopa

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The shuriken is super annoying. At least it's less spammable than the fireball. The biggest problem is actually closing the gap, I think. A properly charged shuriken can even stop the cyclone.
 

TriTails

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Fully charged Green Missile cancels out his shurikens, but seriously? Even I don't really rely on it. Green Missile's high end lag just make it even worse.

Although, the shurikens are all teleghraped IMO. Try to jump or shield, as Greninja cannot stockpile it. We must be patient in this matchup. Plus, look at the floor! Don't get kicked by his Shadow Sneak!
 
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