Data Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread

[MrWhYYZ]

Hello, Lucas main as well. The biggest problem Luigi has in the Luigi v Lucas match-up is his recovery.
D-smash covers the ledge so well, hitting in front of it, underneath it, even above it and 3 times as well.
Also Lucas excels at gimping recoveries without D-smash and Luigi's recovery isn't an exception. Missile can be beaten clean by F-air or Magnet or you can trade with bair spiking him instantly. Also a well spaced D-air beats Cyclone clean.

The neutral isn't that much better. Lucas can keep Luigi out with Z-air eating his fireballs, PK-fire eating his fireballs and exploding creating an additional hitbox if Luigi walls after is fireball or use Magnet healing 14% and getting away freely by canceling into jump, roll back or if luigi runs behind it release it when he's inside the magnet for retaliation damage. All while running away from Luigi because no one wants to get grabbed by him.

If Lucas does gets grabbed it's not a huge problem but it is a problem. Lucas isn't very light but he is extremely floaty giving him Jiggly-esque properties during combo's (For example if Mario does D-throw, Uptilt on 0% only 1 up-tilt is guaranteed after that Lucas can Jump+airdodge away and be free) however, the problem lies with Lucas being in the air instead of being in neutral. Lucas has no A-landing except for B-air which is frame perfect so as soon as Lucas is in the air and not on his terms, that's when the match-ups shifts heavily in Luigis favor (Which is how a lot of Lucas's match-ups go btw)

tl;dr If the Luigi player is good at keeping Lucas from landing safely, it's doable otherwise I don't see this match-up going very well and I might even suggest switching.

 

[Zaycko]

Im having a lot of trouble with Lucas MU, anyone has tips? he has a lot of spacing options and i cant do much

 

[G. Stache]

Im having a lot of trouble with Lucas MU, anyone has tips? he has a lot of spacing options and i cant do much

Well, as it goes in all Luigi MU's: if you want to shield, you have to perfect shield every time. I admit to not knowing much about Lucas, but here's what I do know:
Lucas has an exploitable recovery. Everyone likes to mention that Lucas' recovery is many times better than Ness'...but that's not saying much. Even then, his Up B projectile seems to travel quite a bit slower. Exploit this once you've caught a Lucas' double jump (a rather simple task if the Lucas forgets to mix up his recovery). Whenever the Lucas tries to up b, either cyclone gimp (if you can) or Bair. It should be noted that yes, he has a tether. So you have to exert yourself offstage to get into a position to edge guard. But when you do get the opportunity, Lucas' up b is rather free for the taking.

In neutral...well this is where I lack too much experience, but I'll tell you this. Be sure to perfect shield almost every time (not too hard once you get the timing down), but don't over shield because Lucas' d throw is really potent for combos and Lucas mains are going to be more bold with their grab attempts now that Nintendo was kind enough to chip off ~15 frames of end lag from Lucas' grabs. Finally, fireballs are a good mix up but aren't to be relied on because Lucas' down b is still a thing.

Advantage state is as good as it always is: combos for days, juggles for days and using your tools + a good read will easily extend your chains. But, once your in this state, you should stay in it as long as possible. Lucas' disadvantage doesn't seem all too great, from what I've seen and heard.

That's what I've gathered from this MU from my personal experience. Corrections are much obliged from Lucas mains + anyone who simply knows Lucas more than me. Hope this helps a little bit, seems to me that my Lucas knowledge is rather lacking however.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Luigi again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/405497/

 

[G. Stache]

Right, we don't want a dead thread, so let's get into other characters

I'm glad the Space Peach and Luma boards covered the MU on Luigi, that crosses off something on my To Do List (check it out, I believe a few Luigi mains, including myself, summed up the MU pretty well). So let's move onto other characters

Well, why not discuss a few more high tiers, eh? Ness and Diddy seem to be a few MU's that don't get enough talk. So let's see what we think about them. I'll post a bit later about diddy. So, for now, feel free to post while I get the other boards to have their say.

 

[G. Stache]

Remember when this thread was a thing around 2 weeks back? Why don't we get it back up and running. I think that I'll extend the debate about Diddy and Ness up until Sunday (and I'll be sure to post something). In the meantime, I urge you guys to give a bit of insight with these two MU's

 

[NiftyGuy]

I personally enjoy the Diddy matchup. I feel like the combo game is strong, and down b gimperino is good against this lesser kong. Now ness, he killed me at 40 with PK Thunder 2 on lylat. Thats really stupid.

 

[Yonder]

Not to mention with the Diddy matchup bananas don't work well due to Luigi's traction. I think cyclone messes up jetpack nicely too.

 

[Djmarcus44]

The Mii Gunner boards are currently discussing their matchup with Luigi. We currently have discussion going on for 3312 0/0 gunner, but any discussion on the matchup is appreciated.

 

[G. Stache]

I'd like to move on after I give my own personal opinion.

First let's start with Diddy. While I think Luigi has the edge in this MU, Diddy is far from useless. Banana, while it's less effective against us as opposed to other MUs, still needs to be respected and his mobility is very good. His damage output is decent and his combo game is actually still good despite being absolutely neutered. Should also be noted that Diddy's edge guarding can be scary with his Dair, Bair and banana all being usable. Obviously, Diddy has ways to keep up with us in this MU. But, there's a reason I find this MU in Luigi's favor. Better damage output, better projectile (that is, in specific MU), more combos, quicker attacks, and better edge guarding. I also find that if you optimize your game and learn how to use Diddy's banana against him in the best possible ways, then the MU gets that much easier. Also should be noted that a Diddy that whiffs his smashes while we're close at hand should be punished with an up b. Other than that, just play your game as Luigi. Capitalize off any mistake, play patiently, and once your in stay in. Jumpless Cyclone/Dair works wonders on Diddy's recovery too.

Ness, on the other hand, can be annoying. His power, Combo game, back throw, damage output, and disjoints all need respect. His recovery with up b also isn't stopped by Jumpless Cyclone and demands that we go out of our way and try to Bair Ness to death. Something that's very high risk for very high reward. Every fireball should be smartly placed as well, as Ness' down b is annoying. I'm just greatful that Ness' boxing game is kinda garbage compared to ours. Approaching is made difficult, but nothing on the level of Rosalina or Sheik. SH aerials help remedy that weakness. Our advantage state is as good as you'd expect vs a floaty character that has trouble landing. Couple this with the fact that we still have comparable kill power to Ness with our smash attacks and Ness doesn't have many sufficient ways to make us fear his edge guarding capabilities too much make me believe that this is around an even MU. Though arguments could be made for tipping slightly in Ness' favor.

Feel free to correct me in any spot I was wrong on and I'll hopefully pick out two more characters to discuss by tomorrow

 

[CHOMPY]

Hey guys, the Dark Pit/Pit boards are discussing the Luigi matchup, so I came here to invite you guys to it.

Please go to our Dark Pit/Pit matchup thread below.

http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...lypuff-and-lucas.414936/page-10#post-20800848

 

[sims796]

Hey, if we're allowed suggestions, I'd like Olimar and Pac Man to be discussed. Olimar especially. That is if we aren't gonna do Pit/Mii Gunner.

 

[G. Stache]

Hey, if we're allowed suggestions, I'd like Olimar and Pac Man to be discussed. Olimar especially. That is if we aren't gonna do Pit/Mii Gunner.

Suggestions are perfectly fine. I'm not gonna do Pit/Gunner (at least for a bit) because it feels a bit repetitive to do them while they're currently discussing Luigi. We can easily discuss the MUs on their respective threads. But, Olimar and Pac Man are fair game. Feel free to start the discussion (I don't know about these characters much...) and hopefully the other boards would be interested in contributing.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Suggestions are perfectly fine. I'm not gonna do Pit/Gunner (at least for a bit) because it feels a bit repetitive to do them while they're currently discussing Luigi. We can easily discuss the MUs on their respective threads. But, Olimar and Pac Man are fair game. Feel free to start the discussion (I don't know about these characters much...) and hopefully the other boards would be interested in contributing.

The Gunner board has come to a conclusion of the Luigi matchup with 3312 0/0 gunner. We pretty much think that the matchup is 60:40 in Gunner's favor since Luigi has a hard time approaching and recovering in the matchup. We would greatly appreciate the input of the Luigi mains on this matchup and the matchup with 1111 gunner. We will probably discuss another matchup very soon, so I would suggest that some Luigi mains would come to the Gunner board to discuss the matchup.

 

[verbatim]

The Luigi/Pac-Man discord groups have been doing this matchup discussion for the past few days. If anyone here has access they can post earlier but otherwise I can probably make a writeup of the main talking points over the weekend.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

This is a matchup I play fairly often. Let me start by saying Luigi probably has a slight advantage against Olimar. Both fighters can zone, but they both provide a great deal of trouble for one another in this department, Luigi can sling fireballs, but Red Pikmin eat those up, Olimar can spam Pikmin, but fireballs stop them right in their tracks. The two will more likely than not have to get up close and personal, and there will probably be a great deal of grabbing, with Luigi getting slightly better combos due to Olimar's combos not working as well against floaty characters at mid percents. Back air will be your friend here, it's strong (though not as strong as my man Bowser's! Sorry...back on topic) and Olimar's abysmal priority will force him to respect it and not try to challenge you, but you still have to be wary of Olimar's Purple Pikmin, they'll kill you super early, especially with his side smash, which can take you out at around 70% or maybe even lower. Pikmin Order isn't really used that often for anything but getting the Pikmin back, but make sure not to use anything terribly laggy when Olimar used it, there are super armor frames, and you'll be eating a hard punish if you use something like Super Jump Punch or Green Missile. Luigi won't have too much trouble getting a meteor smash on Olimar unless he's using Winged Pikmin with no Pikmin in his squad, capitalize on his slow recovery, and recover either really low or extremely high, if you're in that middle range, Olimar can do some deadly edgeguarding on you, likely to take a stock if you don't save your jump. I may be wrong about this, but I believe Luigi's up air on its late hit has similar properties to CF's and Ganondorf's on the late hits, sending opponents low enough for an easy meteor, though yours won't be as devastating due to a weaker and harder to land meteor smash, it's still worth doing, unless of course I'm wrong. Your smashes also outspeed Olimar's, but have less range, except in the case of up smash, and the captain is especially vulnerable to a side smash punish. If you're feeling especially disrespectful, you could just keep using Green Missile over and over until you misfire, it's pretty hype when it actually happens. Overall, treat Olimar like other power characters, but lighter and less laggy...and with a better recovery, respect his kill moves and punish accordingly.

 

[Direspect only!]

Luigi can't really aproach at all. But when he Finally gets in, he can rack up some damage. Your goal is to limit pacmans playground as much as possible. Don't take the trampoline bait. There's nothing you can do that would be a good move. Wait it out. Break hydrants with down smash. If pacman tries to jump over you. Run up and up smash the hydrant. It sends it behind them. Your down b is good in this MU to a certain extent. Honestly I don't see luigi winning, but that's more than likely due to the drop off of luigi mains.

 

[Xtianfonseca]

Can anyone give any insight on the Jigglypuff matchup? I'm having trouble on this one in particular due to puffs ability to gimp and as well as having trouble in the neutral game. Before 1.1.1 I felt that the matchup was heavily in Luigi's favor but not I feel like it reversed. Any suggestions?

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Any chance at some point we can go back to discussing Diddy Kong? I don't think in top level play Luigi vs Diddy is as free as people make it to be. Diddy's kill options out of down tilt and his overall pressure game, not to mention his ability to shut down approaches and limit options with banana, is absurdly strong. Not to mention the ever so potent down air spike to completely annihilate Luigi offstage assuming he's using his 22 frame startup green missile at any point. Even with banana making Luigi slip hilariously far, it sets up more for a tech chase opportunity a good Diddy (Zinoto) will always get if they haven't grabbed you already.

 

[Yonder]

Imo, I don't think Luigi has any free matchups in this game. I think every character has some sort of tool that gives Luigi a hard time somewhere. Sure Luigi has advantages against a good chunk of the cast, but nothing past about oooh....65:35 for a select few. Even Ganondorf, who I think is Luigi's best, still has to respect Ganondorf's edgeguarding against him (even if Ganondorf below Luigi offstage = 1 stock)

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

They all complained about Luigi instead of addressing the real problems...

 

[G. Stache]

Any chance at some point we can go back to discussing Diddy Kong? I don't think in top level play Luigi vs Diddy is as free as people make it to be. Diddy's kill options out of down tilt and his overall pressure game, not to mention his ability to shut down approaches and limit options with banana, is absurdly strong. Not to mention the ever so potent down air spike to completely annihilate Luigi offstage assuming he's using his 22 frame startup green missile at any point. Even with banana making Luigi slip hilariously far, it sets up more for a tech chase opportunity a good Diddy (Zinoto) will always get if they haven't grabbed you already.

Whichever Luigi thinks the MU is free is a bloody liar. I don't think that a +1 MU is by any means free. We can easily give this MU another go as I didn't think that this was even a misconception. Diddy is top 10 for a reason. So, if we want to start this whole discussion feel free to give it a go. (Also, sorry for being inactive for a bit. Forgot this thread was a thing. Life got a wee bit hectic for a bit)

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Wait...why am I even still replying here? I guess I'll drift back across these sands when I'm needed again in case you ever need help beating one of my mains. Farewell, weegees!
For now

 

[Ghazis]

Can we discuss palu? Its a match up I've been curious about for a while.. and a palu main at my local said palus consider Luigi easy cause he has no approach options

 

[G. Stache]

Can we discuss palu? Its a match up I've been curious about for a while.. and a palu main at my local said palus consider Luigi easy cause he has no approach options

Of course. I guess we got the two characters for this week. Palutena and Diddy. Feel free to discuss the two characters while I get the other boards to chip in

About Palutena: does she even have much of anything to force an approach from Luigi? A Luigi doesn't blindly approach if he's not forced. Optimal play in neutral is patient play and waiting for Palutena to use something that can be easily punished (like her slow normals).

 

[Ghazis]

Of course. I guess we got the two characters for this week. Palutena and Diddy. Feel free to discuss the two characters while I get the other boards to chip in

About Palutena: does she even have much of anything to force an approach from Luigi? A Luigi doesn't blindly approach if he's not forced. Optimal play in neutral is patient play and waiting for Palutena to use something that can be easily punished (like her slow normals).

Well he normally gets to a good mid distance and spams palus nuetral B
I thought that would be easy to beat with Luigi's cyclone or fireball .. It doesn't beat it out and if you do either you're taking a good 6 damage haha.. Most of her smashes have a wind box on them that even if they wiff Luigi he runs slow cause of it so her smashes are relatively safe
She can also reflect fire balls
She can fast fall her Nair and drag Luigi down to the bottom of the stage so it's not safe to use green missile cause there's that and a spike.. She also has decent grab combos.. And a small window where her dthrow combos into uair to kill.. Luigi has a hard time getting to the floor and it feels like palus love juggling..

I'd love to get more matches in with him but he normally leaves relatively early so I go into our matches kind of blind
But the good thing is she's combo food

 

[Ghazis]

Well he normally gets to a good mid distance and spams palus nuetral B
I thought that would be easy to beat with Luigi's cyclone or fireball .. It doesn't beat it out and if you do either you're taking a good 6 damage haha.. Most of her smashes have a wind box on them that even if they wiff Luigi he runs slow cause of it so her smashes are relatively safe
She can also reflect fire balls
She can fast fall her Nair and drag Luigi down to the bottom of the stage so it's not safe to use green missile cause there's that and a spike.. She also has decent grab combos.. And a small window where her dthrow combos into uair to kill.. Luigi has a hard time getting to the floor and it feels like palus love juggling..

I'd love to get more matches in with him but he normally leaves relatively early so I go into our matches kind of blind
But the good thing is she's combo food

Alright Luigi boards you put up one hell of an argument
Anyways I thought of some pros and cons

Pros:
Luigi punishes palu really well, easily able to get 30% from one grab... Alot more if you read the di
She maybe strong but she's relatively slow
Her tilts are slow and have alot of end lag
Luigi can kill her alot earlier than she can kill him
She can't rack up damage too fast

Cons:
She can camp Luigi out
Since Luigi is slow in the air when she dthrows you for a follow up your only options are air Dodge or jump
Her bair is invincible so playing footsies with someone who knows how to rar isn't fun
She can stomp all of Luigi's recovery options
Whether it be fast fall nair'ing, spike, auto reticle green missile to stop Luigi from getting horizontal distance .. She has a lot making it hard for Luigi to recover vs a good palu
When Luigi does get her off stage, if there are platforms she can teleport and cancel them and get out of the disadvantage state
Her up air can juggle Luigi hard
A well placed auto reticle can stuff Luigi's approach game
And her smashes are safe if they whiff Luigi because of his low traction

Sorry for the double post but the thread was dead so I had to post to get it started again

 

[Mileo279]

I think we win the fiddly match up I played it once and lost was because when using green missile to recover I landed I town and city platform. I say we win because banana don't scare us we slide for and most of time I had banana because I just kept picking it up with fair. Limping diddy should be easy with cyclone (if I could do it ) luigi combos are better than fiddly. They both have trouble killing it think diddy easier time killing ps. I main diddy

 

[G. Stache]

Alright Luigi boards you put up one hell of an argument
Anyways I thought of some pros and cons

Pros:
Luigi punishes palu really well, easily able to get 30% from one grab... Alot more if you read the di
She maybe strong but she's relatively slow
Her tilts are slow and have alot of end lag
Luigi can kill her alot earlier than she can kill him
She can't rack up damage too fast

Cons:
She can camp Luigi out
Since Luigi is slow in the air when she dthrows you for a follow up your only options are air Dodge or jump
Her bair is invincible so playing footsies with someone who knows how to rar isn't fun
She can stomp all of Luigi's recovery options
Whether it be fast fall nair'ing, spike, auto reticle green missile to stop Luigi from getting horizontal distance .. She has a lot making it hard for Luigi to recover vs a good palu
When Luigi does get her off stage, if there are platforms she can teleport and cancel them and get out of the disadvantage state
Her up air can juggle Luigi hard
A well placed auto reticle can stuff Luigi's approach game
And her smashes are safe if they whiff Luigi because of his low traction

Sorry for the double post but the thread was dead so I had to post to get it started again

Well, again, an approaching Luigi is gonna have a hard time approaching anyways. But, Palutena doesn't seem to force any approach, and Luigi doesn't force an approach. So it's just a war of attrition/footsies. While Luigi doesn't have the best footsies game, it's definitely workable. And his reward from winning footsies is far greater than Palutena's. Also, you said that Luigi only has the options of jumping away or air dodging when caught in Palu's d throw. I believe you forgot about a certain frame 3 option that punishes overextending hard and also sets up for combos. It gives him the option to attack back. I'll give you that her smashes are safe on whiff, though d smash and f smash might be punishable with a full hop/short hop aerial (iirc, Palu's smashes are rather slow on the end lag side). Just a bit of speculation though. U smash should be punishable as well. Should be noted that Palu's recovery isn't really great. Surprisingly mediocre for raw distance and using a long lasting hit box/multi hit move (like cyclone) should easily exploit the two frame window for vulnerability. Platforms help this recovery a lot, but Palu's not the only one who loves platforms. Luigi gets a lot of general use out of platforms.

I'm really interested: is autoreticle actually good? It seems that everyone writes it off as a garbage move, yet you seem to put some stock into it. I'm guessing it's just with the Luigi MU?

I'm a bit busy right now, but I'll continue with a few more points when I have the time

 

[Ghazis]

Well, again, an approaching Luigi is gonna have a hard time approaching anyways. But, Palutena doesn't seem to force any approach, and Luigi doesn't force an approach. So it's just a war of attrition/footsies. While Luigi doesn't have the best footsies game, it's definitely workable. And his reward from winning footsies is far greater than Palutena's. Also, you said that Luigi only has the options of jumping away or air dodging when caught in Palu's d throw. I believe you forgot about a certain frame 3 option that punishes overextending hard and also sets up for combos. It gives him the option to attack back. I'll give you that her smashes are safe on whiff, though d smash and f smash might be punishable with a full hop/short hop aerial (iirc, Palu's smashes are rather slow on the end lag side). Just a bit of speculation though. U smash should be punishable as well. Should be noted that Palu's recovery isn't really great. Surprisingly mediocre for raw distance and using a long lasting hit box/multi hit move (like cyclone) should easily exploit the two frame window for vulnerability. Platforms help this recovery a lot, but Palu's not the only one who loves platforms. Luigi gets a lot of general use out of platforms.

I'm really interested: is autoreticle actually good? It seems that everyone writes it off as a garbage move, yet you seem to put some stock into it. I'm guessing it's just with the Luigi MU?

I'm a bit busy right now, but I'll continue with a few more points when I have the time

The auto reticle is good vs Luigi
It beats his fireball and cyclone making approaching harder than you think and actually does force an approach
It's 9 damage if all 3 hits

And the dthrow into up air has a window where it's a true combo that can kill so even Nair can't save us
Her up smash, though not good in neutral, is actually annoyingly good vs Luigi because of how slow he is in the air
It's like a shark
Same with up air

And yeah Luigi benefits from platforms, I always take people to battlefield, but when a palu is platform canceling into bair and running away it gets annoying because of how slow Luigi is

On a side note at my local I was vs'ing a cloud and the cloud was at 120% and I was at 50%
I baited a dash attack with up smash (bad idea I know ) and got killed from center stage off the top in smashville
I just thought this was funny

 

[Ghazis]

Luigi's Nair does not beat palus uair.. Doesn't even clank with it

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

I'm surprised the Samus MU hasn't been edited yet. Its definitely slightly in Samus's favor. 55:45 in my opinion, in Samus's favor.

Also, any tips here on the Luigi vs. Pac-Man MU?

 

[G. Stache]

I'm surprised the Samus MU hasn't been edited yet. Its definitely slightly in Samus's favor. 55:45 in my opinion, in Samus's favor.

Also, any tips here on the Luigi vs. Pac-Man MU?

I actually find it slightly in Luigi's favor. While it's never been 65-35, I don't think Luigi loses it. It's just one of those 'annoying, but we win' MUs that Luigi has. If you play optimally and don't let your frustration get the better of you, Luigi comes out the winner of this MU. The only thing Samus has that Luigi legitimately can't answer is Charge Shot. Luigi, on the other hand, has his entire close combat game, combos that Samus' bad disadvantage state can't overcome, and gimping with cyclone. Samus makes neutral a bit of a hassle (though when your brother uses both dedede and Tink, Samus is nothing), but nothing you can't overcome. Her advantage and disadvantage aren't as good as Luigi's. Personally never thought we lost this one. Samus is on the lower half of the tier list for a good reason: she ain't that good.

For Pacman, I can't give you any more advice than this: try to catch bonus fruit as often as you can, it takes away some of his combo game. And don't let him set up his playground. Pac Man seems like a set up heavy character: try to abuse that the best you can.

 

[Yonder]

I can edit any of the 1st post numbers since some are out of date, but we'd definitely need a consensus before I do so. I may get some averages from some of the matchup threads made to start for some characters.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Have you guys seen Jwest vs. Mr. Con Con? THE BEST Samus and BEST Luigi going face-to-face in a tournament setting. And who came out on top? Samus did. I'm not saying its impossible for Luigi lol, its just a seemingly 55:45 MU for him. He can definitely still win, but there is no denying that the MU is hard when both players are playing optimally.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Also if you don't know who either of these players are, just watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKqlo_14i08

And to specify more of each of these players; Mr. ConCon is one of the first people to ever take a set off of ZeRo (this was pre-patch, after the first Diddy nerf I believe). And Jwest is the first ever Samus to take ZeRo's Sheik to game 3 in a pools set.

Here is Jwest vs. ZeRo at that same tournament where he defeated ConCon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df3AXrjqCxg

As for the vid of ZeRo vs. Concon, I can't find it at the moment. But if you search up "ZeRo vs. Mr. ConCon" I'm sure you'll be able to find it. Or search "Mr. ConCon beats ZeRo" or something lol.

 

[Omega_Ra1der]

May I make a request for next week to talk about the corrin mu despite making a thread for it. However this mu actually made me question my luigi viability due to corrin have the better counter toolset than our lean green machine. It is a neutral dependent and a player skill level mu due to how the corrin player plays because his/her toolset can capitalize luigi's weakness if spacing is done correctly. However luigi have also some pros in the mu with a godsend combo game against corrin and decent kill options on shield if corrin makes a mistake (like the common dash attack on shield) can lead to a powerful punish.

 

[G. Stache]

Have you guys seen Jwest vs. Mr. Con Con? THE BEST Samus and BEST Luigi going face-to-face in a tournament setting. And who came out on top? Samus did. I'm not saying its impossible for Luigi lol, its just a seemingly 55:45 MU for him. He can definitely still win, but there is no denying that the MU is hard when both players are playing optimally.

It's also possible that ConCon just didn't know the MU. First ten seconds in, and it's like watching a low level Luigi. He approaches right away instead of playing it patient and safe, allowing Samus to score a grab on him, and DIng in on the d throw so Luigi is easy combo food for Samus (Samus doesn't get much of anything if you DI away). Also getting caught by an obvious up b...y'know, Samus' only decent option out of shield. Not to mention the lack of Jumpless cyclone on one or two key moments where he could of stuffed Samus' linear recovery.

No offense to Con Con at all. He's an amazing player to be sure, but MU inexperience is obvious. It should also be noted that the (arguably) second best Luigi main, Luigi Player, thinks the MU as in our favor. Annoying and boring, because you gotta play optimally, but still winning. Besides, wasn't ConCon and Johnny Westside in the same Genesis pool? The pool where ConCon came out on top?

I don't know. It's an MU that should be learned regardless, because Samus is one character that is A) underrated and B) preys on MU inexperience (like DDD and Pac Man).

May I make a request for next week to talk about the corrin mu despite making a thread for it. However this mu actually made me question my luigi viability due to corrin have the better counter toolset than our lean green machine. It is a neutral dependent and a player skill level mu due to how the corrin player plays because his/her toolset can capitalize luigi's weakness if spacing is done correctly. However luigi have also some pros in the mu with a godsend combo game against corrin and decent kill options on shield if corrin makes a mistake (like the common dash attack on shield) can lead to a powerful punish.

I'm not sure. I like waiting a month or two before talking about freshly released DLC character. And I'd like to make this thread slightly less dead by planning a Cloud MU debate soon. For now, stick to the thread for Corrin. I'm not sure I want to talk about him quite yet.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

I'm no sure about their pools at G3. I never bothered to ask them, or check. Also who is Luigi Player?

 

[G. Stache]

I'm no sure about their pools at G3. I never bothered to ask them, or check. Also who is Luigi Player?

Luigi Player is a Luigi main from (I think) Germany. In January he won a big tournament in Germany (considered the best Smash 4 scene in Europe) with solo Luigi. Other than that, just a strong Luigi main from Europe. You should check him out when you have the time.