Data Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread

[TriTails]

You're doing a great job getting discussion happening G Stache!

I think we just have to gather this info into one thread so people don't have to search through pages.

TriTails , still updating your thread? I think Sonic is ready to go over there. Ryu...maybe, not a lot of discussion about him though.

No. I don't think so. I've been soaked with works and problems (Personal problems, to be precise). My schedule is very tight now because my exam is happening next week. After I go through that, I will be rewarded with a lot of free time, but that is temporary, only lasting 'till time hit January, which rolls back to what I had a few weeks ago.

(In fact, I was doing my homework in front of my laptop for an online work. And works and tests were supposed to be stopped today. But what kind of rule that doesn't break. I also just got home from four and a half hours of a course)

I don't think I'm active enough in SB. I've realized my skills are sup-par compared to many of my friends, and I need to get good, too. I want to focus on improving my skills as a teenager (15 years old and I can't even ride a bicycle smh), and as they say, life comes first. I used to make noises in the CCI thread, but not as much anymore.

I will still be in this board, but I'm afraid I won't be posting as much. I usually just lurk around silently, posting whenever I get the time or chance. But editing a post while writing walls of text in the process is too bulky for me to do in my phone (My preferable media, as my laptop takes too long to boot up and the un-strategic free time prevents me from doing so). So, I apologize deeply, I can't.

G. Stache might need to create his own thread. I don't think the infos in my thread are accurate because all of those were pre-patch. Some MU stay the mostly the same but things are never the exact same. But if the infos y'all find are still relevant, then go ahead.

----------
To contribute to the MU discussion, G. Stache provided an useful strategy for the Bike. I myself would say that, unless Wario is clearly aiming to get his Bike back, I think leaving it on the ground while semi-protecting him would stall him even more. In the meantime, we pelt him with Fireballs. Granted, Bike is not Wario's everything neutral but as G. Stache implied, it does do a good damage to its effectiveness.

But I don't play Wario. May we just call the Wario experts here?

Time to use my Final Smash: Summoning experts all around the world! @Spinosaurus @TheReflexWonder !

 

[PokeMarioRevolution]

This is good info, don't get me wrong. It's very important to note that Wario has the better neutral, as that makes up the majority of smash 4 competitive play. But what else does Wario have that beats Luigi? For instance: Wario has one of the best airspeeds in the game. That helps him play a very defensive game has he can essentially play a hit and run (or in this case an aerial and retreat) game. Also, as combos are Luigi's best thing in his arsenal: does Wario have any move that shakes Luigi off? I'm not trying to call you out (if I was giving that impression), and what you said was good and really important in this MU. But further sharing would be great, since you're the expert on Wario here.

It's okay. Wario's aerial mobility has thrown the Luigis I've played quite a bit. They also tend to make a mad dash when trying to approach, which I advise you guys not to do. It can easily be punished with a Chomp or a N-Air. Nair is one of Wario's greatest tools to combo and shielding that or using attacks with higher priority could help the Luigi situation. I don't know too much about Luigi but perhaps a Cyclone could work in that situation? I'll have to test that out. Taking away Wario's bike is crucial. A lot of people seem to like destroying Wario's bike as soon as possible when that's the complete opposite of what you should do. If you guys get Wario off the bike and keep it away from him I think you could easily approach with Fireballs. Wario can also easily DI out of/shake off Luigi's throw combos. Mixing up will be the best option if you want to catch a Wario off guard. I hope this helped/furthered the discussion :^)

 

[Yonder]

No. I don't think so. I've been soaked with works and problems (Personal problems, to be precise). My schedule is very tight now because my exam is happening next week. After I go through that, I will be rewarded with a lot of free time, but that is temporary, only lasting 'till time hit January, which rolls back to what I had a few weeks ago.

(In fact, I was doing my homework in front of my laptop for an online work. And works and tests were supposed to be stopped today. But what kind of rule that doesn't break. I also just got home from four and a half hours of a course)

I don't think I'm active enough in SB. I've realized my skills are sup-par compared to many of my friends, and I need to get good, too. I want to focus on improving my skills as a teenager (15 years old and I can't even ride a bicycle smh), and as they say, life comes first. I used to make noises in the CCI thread, but not as much anymore.

I will still be in this board, but I'm afraid I won't be posting as much. I usually just lurk around silently, posting whenever I get the time or chance. But editing a post while writing walls of text in the process is too bulky for me to do in my phone (My preferable media, as my laptop takes too long to boot up and the un-strategic free time prevents me from doing so). So, I apologize deeply, I can't.

G. Stache might need to create his own thread. I don't think the infos in my thread are accurate because all of those were pre-patch. Some MU stay the mostly the same but things are never the exact same. But if the infos y'all find are still relevant, then go ahead.

----------
To contribute to the MU discussion, G. Stache provided an useful strategy for the Bike. I myself would say that, unless Wario is clearly aiming to get his Bike back, I think leaving it on the ground while semi-protecting him would stall him even more. In the meantime, we pelt him with Fireballs. Granted, Bike is not Wario's everything neutral but as G. Stache implied, it does do a good damage to its effectiveness.

But I don't play Wario. May we just call the Wario experts here?

Time to use my Final Smash: Summoning experts all around the world! @Spinosaurus @TheReflexWonder !

Yeah...I just got my driver's license at 21. I feel the pain.

But fair enough, thank you. I think G. Stache , could you do the individual character matchups thread? If you are up for it, you can take the Sonic discussion here and I can grab you the codings/whatever from Tritail's matchup thread and you can make a new one, or I can maybe pass off ownership...somehow, haven't done that before though so it's new to me if I can.

 

[sims796]

Isn't fireballs a decent answer to a Wario what likes to keep his jaw open in waiting?

 

[G. Stache]

Yeah...I just got my driver's license at 21. I feel the pain.

But fair enough, thank you. I think G. Stache , could you do the individual character matchups thread? If you are up for it, you can take the Sonic discussion here and I can grab you the codings/whatever from Tritail's matchup thread and you can make a new one, or I can maybe pass off ownership...somehow, haven't done that before though so it's new to me if I can.

Yeah, whatever works for you guys, I'll certainly do. We would just need to pin it so everyone wouldn't have to look through the Luigi Boards to find it. It'd be great to make a new thread for the post patch MU's, though.

 

[PokeMarioRevolution]

Isn't fireballs a decent answer to a Wario what likes to keep his jaw open in waiting?

That is true but only beginning Warios do that. If you do run across a beginner that would be a viable approach. However, more experienced Wario players know exactly when to mix up and use the Chomp.

 

[TriTails]

Chomp also has this hillarious head intangibility for like... 18-20~ frames-ish. U-smash may be able to beat an aerial Chomp, but Fireball is definitely the go to answer for grounded one.

That said. Its mixups are scary. Shield loses to it. Spotdodge loses to it. Rolls doesn't, but they have 4 frames of startup. Shorthopping loses to it. Every attacks ever except for like Fireballs lose to it. It's a giga annoyance.

Respect the hell outta this move, EVERY. FREAKING. TIME.

 

[Underhill]

Chomp also has this hillarious head intangibility for like... 18-20~ frames-ish. U-smash may be able to beat an aerial Chomp, but Fireball is definitely the go to answer for grounded one.

That said. Its mixups are scary. Shield loses to it. Spotdodge loses to it. Rolls doesn't, but they have 4 frames of startup. Shorthopping loses to it. Every attacks ever except for like Fireballs lose to it. It's a giga annoyance.

Respect the hell outta this move, EVERY. FREAKING. TIME.

Luigi's b-air can beat it if spaced correctly.

 

[G. Stache]

Good stuff, guys. I feel that this week went well. If anyone has anything else to say about Pika, then now would be the time. If not, feel free to request a certain character to discuss next.

 

[G. Stache]

So this week, I've decided to stop beating around the bush and chose the big two for discussion: and . I know we lose both MU's, but there's still options we have and weaknesses we can most likely (at least attempt to) exploit. So try to discuss the positive side, if you can, since we already know the negative side. I'll try to get the other boards to post here as always, but go ahead and share your thoughts right now.

 

[Underhill]

I guess I'll go, but going with though. I'll do . some other time.

Honestly, I hate this match-up very much. Why? Stupid needles to camp and making it difficult to approach and also beats out fireballs, f-airs that enough range to out-space us, speed, and her ability to exploit our recovery; However, I'll give out what needed to take out this dumb character.
Against her f-airs, bait them out with trots for her to misspace, RAB with your b-air, or PS to shield grab them, but timing may throw you off though because its fast enough to auto cancel. Do not challenge her disjoint f-airs with your other aerials, but b-air. N-air may trade depending on her spacing, but still gets beaten out along with your f-airs. Up-smash may trade with f-airs, but if you hit with the head, then you're ok.
Approaching: Very difficult thanks to her needles, speed, aerials, and tiles. Mix up approaches as best you can with trots, auto cancelled aerials, RAB, tom hawks, fireballs and pivot ones too, and torndao while being patient and reading her inputs. When you do get in, stay on her and pressure the crap out of Sheik, but also watch out for her pressure.
Combos and Pressure: When you grab her, take advantage of her falling speed and create good combos while watching for her di and creating pressure on her. While Sheik's ground game has good frame(but smashes), your is better though so don't be in the air too much. Pivot grab along for the ride because you want to get as much damage as possible and you don't want to give her no room on the ground. Bounching fish can help her get out of combos if she gets a small window of freedom, but that's it. She can also combo too with grabs and start up her own to rack up damage quick, but your is better slightly. When you get combed by f-airs, n-air out to avoid her extend combos, but also mix up di as well and don't overuse n-air as a combo breaker. Sheik can juggle you with mix ups such as aerials, up-airs, grabs, and up-smash to bait, mindgames, or give you a hard time landing since you're floaty, she's fast, and air speed is bad so mix up with fast-falls, tornado, n-air, pivot fireballs, and spaced b-airs. While her juggling game is better(but not like ZSS's or Rosalina's), Luigi can juggle as well. Have a up-smash ready along with pivot and give her trouble landing and pressure along with baits, mindgames, and mix ups such as f-smash, fireballs, grabs, dash attack, jabs, and pivot as well. However, she can land better than you can so remember that, but keep a eye out for her d-airs as she might do it if far from you to punish. If close and you PS it, then wish an early new year with a Fire-jump punch.
Koing: Luigi wins at it. Why? Because Sheik stinks at killing while your stronger, especially with rage if you stay alive long enough. Her smashes, she needs hard reads. Up-airs, she kills at least 138% or higher and with rage. Off-stage, avoid being put out there because things will turn h*** for you if she gets a read. Plus, she's light as well. Make use of your kill power and stay patient while looking for punishes and errors to get. If you kill her early, then advantage of her weakness and make Sheik work for her kills while adding pressure at the same time.
Off-stage: She wins because of her superior recovery and your linear recovery. If you master the button mashing for the tornado, then things will get alittle easier for you so mix up your recover options as best you can and don't let her a get easy read because she has bounching fish, f-air, n-air, aerial needles, and b-air to gimp you. It won't be easy against good Sheiks, but if you make it back safely, then you're a lucky man. Edgeguarding Sheik isn't easy, but there are a couple of ways to gimps. D-air spike her at the start of her up-b when you see the chance. B-air for a stage spike as well. Tornado gimp her if you can. Like I said, she's harder to gimp, but don't be afraid to try and gimp her recovery. Use ledge trump to b-air, punish ledge options, and use d-smash, d-tile, and angled f-smash if she grabs the ledge twice. Be careful of her ledge trump to b-air and ledge punishes such as d-air, d-smash(maybe), and aerials.

 

[miniada]

vs
sheik camps us and ruins our approach because of needles since they beat out fireballs. Offstage is a nightmare. Her recovery is better than ours so it's harder to edgeguard her. And she can edgeguard us with down b, grenade, and needles. She outranges us with fair.and luigis nerf was kind off hit or miss. He can combo fast fallers better than most charecters but a lot of his options are gone.but it's still useful. Dthrow to sweet spot up b is good for more percent.dthrow to up or down smash can lead into another grab however you have to be fast since this isn't a true combo.sheik combos us offstage with Fair taking advantage of our already mentioned bad recovery. Luigi is better at killing. Sweet spot up b, fsmasf, upsmash, downsmash, bthrow etc are all better than sheiks kill options.
Overall I would say 30:70

 

[TriTails]

Hang on a second guys. Are we saying Sheik is worse at killing than Luigi in general?

F-throw + U-air works for a very long time. D-throw creates a 50/50 where if we airdodge, we may get hit by a Vanish, or double jump away, get hit by an U-air. F-throw to Bouncing Fish isn't guaranteed, but she can just opt to F-air which also kills at the ledge. Soft N-air to BF can also work, aerial needles to BF can also work.

Just because Sheik is lacking in kill power doesn't mean she is worse at killing than everyone in the game. 140% isn't that high of a kill range because on how much and fast she slaps you, and the number only gets lower with rage or near blastzone. Yes, we can kill below 100% with an uncharged up-angled F-smash, but how to land it is a question to ponder about.

We're not Bowser who can tank her hits and have her kill him at like 170% while he only need a few solid hits to KO her at like 80%. We die rather early to Vanish and U-air because of our floatiness and gravity, and killing power becomes the second on her to-do list when we are off-stage, and we don't do the 'lol I kill you with a F-air at 90% lol' stuffs heavyweight does.

Luigi meanwhile, can no longer kill her guaranteedly at 100% with D-throw B-air, and losing a frame 8 kill setuping move against a character with ridiculous neutral-B and F-air is huge. She isn't even that light, she is the heaviest of lightweights along with Zelda. Considering how her F-air can outranges even Marth's, landing U-smash or F-smash is a chore.

If we DO take her stock off early though... Camp. Camp as long as you can. Let her bring the fight to you. Needles ain't gonna kill you unless she uses an aerial one (Which she can combo into BF afterwards).

If Luigi can get in, then at all cost he must stay in. Don't lose your cool when you have needles peneterating through your skin, keep a cool head and stay focused. Losing your composure is a good way to get bopped.

 

[Yonder]

If we DO take her stock off early though... Camp. Camp as long as you can. Let her bring the fight to you. Needles ain't gonna kill you unless she uses an aerial one (Which she can combo into BF afterwards).

I'm curious, how will you camp Sheik still with a lead? Needles still have way more range that Luigi's fireball and she doesn't have to get close. I'm pretty sure Sheik's needles fully charged override Luigi's fireball still.

As someone who's best friend is a avid Sheik main that I rarely ever beat, it really does suck for Luigi. Sheik has always had better kill set ups, since d throw to up b never worked well on fast fallers before. Really, the only way I ever win is if I get a lucky smash attack kill on Sheik first, and that's IT [my friend catches up sometimes too]. Not even jab to up b, my main way of killing, works here. Luigi's smashes are flat out better for killing so launch away if Sheik happens to go close quarters against you. Luigi get's gimped no problem while not being able to do the same...[I DID get a dair spike on Sheik once while she was using vanish, never happened again. Literally have to be frame perfect/lucky as hell, don't expect it] And at least he got D throw to Up B at 0%. Irrelevant since one needle=1% and there goes the combo. Nair sometimes cans Sheik's jab, sometimes. Watch out for bouncing fish off stage and u air kills/up smash kills, those are her main tools, with fair being the main unescapable damage racker.

I don't really use Luigi for this matchup, I like Game and Watch personally here or Wii Fit, but that's just me. Probably 30:70 Sheik's favor. Definitely Luigi's worst. But hey...at least no other matchup in the game is nearly this difficult for Luigi!

 

[TriTails]

I'm curious, how will you camp Sheik still with a lead? Needles still have way more range that Luigi's fireball and she doesn't have to get close. I'm pretty sure Sheik's needles fully charged override Luigi's fireball still.

Camp in my post means 'run and don't get hit'. Like Wario would do, but much tougher for Luigi. But I can't think of any other feasible way outside of stopping to stick your head out to danger.

But the more I think about it, I suppose this strategy has little to no use. Unless you can shield needles consistently...

The point is, to stay out of uncharged needles' range and stopping her from getting a full charge. However, both of those can't really be prevented together without exposing yourself to the other. You stay out of uncharged needles' range, you'll be in for a full charge. You try to stop her from getting full charge, you'll be in for the uncharged version.

Why I'm so scared of needles at high percents is because if she lands needles in her uncharged version's range, it becomes basically impossible to touch the ground without getting your skin jammed by something, and be sent back up again, and again, and again. If you're below 110%, then uncharged version shouldn't knock you up yet, unless Sheik has massive rage.

Camping Sheik with a lead on us is basically 'don't lose your stock and you win', but considering how good her mobility is, and on how she gets guaranteed kills off a dashgrab, this is a huge chore.

 

[Underhill]

Camp in my post means 'run and don't get hit'. Like Wario would do, but much tougher for Luigi. But I can't think of any other feasible way outside of stopping to stick your head out to danger.

But the more I think about it, I suppose this strategy has little to no use. Unless you can shield needles consistently...

The point is, to stay out of uncharged needles' range and stopping her from getting a full charge. However, both of those can't really be prevented together without exposing yourself to the other. You stay out of uncharged needles' range, you'll be in for a full charge. You try to stop her from getting full charge, you'll be in for the uncharged version.

Why I'm so scared of needles at high percents is because if she lands needles in her uncharged version's range, it becomes basically impossible to touch the ground without getting your skin jammed by something, and be sent back up again, and again, and again. If you're below 110%, then uncharged version shouldn't knock you up yet, unless Sheik has massive rage.

Camping Sheik with a lead on us is basically 'don't lose your stock and you win', but considering how good her mobility is, and on how she gets guaranteed kills off a dashgrab, this is a huge chore.

It is. Its a tough battle for Luigi, but as long as you get the lead yourself and the sheik wants to be a camping b**** with needles, don't approach her and stay in mid range. Still have to power shield needles, but keep your patient and getting extra credit and you're good as long as you don't get gimped, juggled, or kill by her set ups. I wouldn't say this works all of the time, but patient plays a role and not giving her the ko for free, may help as long as you don't make a mistake for her to punish.
If I do have trouble against a really good Sheik, then I'm better off with Mario, Pikachu, or Rosalina if needed.

 

[G. Stache]

Glad we got some last minute discussion up about sheik. And, while I wouldn't call it a 70-30 personally, good points were made. I don't want to be hogging the character choice here, so feel free suggest any character and I'll message the other boards to try and get some debate going. I'd strongly suggest ZSS talk if you wouldn't mind, but I'm not trying to press. So consider this free week.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Do you guys have any problem with Link? I feel Luigi has that matchup 60-40 easily.

 

[G. Stache]

Do you guys have any problem with Link? I feel Luigi has that matchup 60-40 easily.

Definitely in our favor. How strongly it is in our favor is the real question. He's a lot like Tink, except with no mobility in return for more power and a good edge guarding game. So essentially Tink's greatest strength against Luigi, his keep away game, is nerfed when it comes to link but now he has a few more smaller perks instead. Obviously he has one massive disjoint otherwise known as the master sword and his projectiles still can cause a bit of havoc. Bombs comes to mind as a big challenge of playing a good link. Set ups can lead to early deaths because of Links above average killing power. Edgeguarding link is pretty easy for Luigi (as expected), but edge guarding Luigi with link is even easier. Seriously, Link has Falco/MK tier edge guarding prowess. If you're offstage, either play it safe/be on the offensive or enjoy losing your precious stock.

Overall, Link has a lot of tools that you need to respect, but Luigi has even more. Once you get in, stay in (which isn't hard, it's link) and capitalize on each win in neutral. Just be aware that Link has some crazy underrated stuff that you should always a bit cautious of. Good tip when playing either link: be prepared to DI bombs and boomerangs. Those two projectiles combo into kills.

 

[Vhaltz]

I've had some troubles against a really good link in my area. They usually play walling out with bombs and bair mainly, mixing up with the rest of the kit. It's doable but your item play has to be pretty good to negate a lot of the bomb shenanigans, otherwise you're kind of screwed.

I usually do better with MK in this matchup because the ability to just teleport behind characters that are controlling a large zone in front of them is great and throws them off every time if you use it as unpredictably as possible.

 

[TriTails]

Link's keepaway game is actually stronger than Tink IMO.

All of F-air, N-air, and B-air has little landing lag. Two of them are disjointed and the other is frame 5 IIRC. Link can throw Bombs farther, and his Boomerang tend to carry us right to his jab (Forget riding it. Your range is far too short). His arrows basically make it impossible to land against him if we are in high percents (Sheik's needles-esque problem) and his tether reaches out to the other side of the ocean. He also has a Z-air to keep you out. Not a fun MU for me.

 

[G. Stache]

Sorry I'm a bit late to update. Anyways, I saw some good discussion on Link just a few days back so why not keep it going? and are our two characters to talk about this week. So, as always, you guys go ahead and talk and I'll attempt to get the other boards to contribute.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Link main subscribing to this thread.

What do you wanna know? Luigi doesn't scare me.

 

[G. Stache]

Link main subscribing to this thread.

What do you wanna know? Luigi doesn't scare me.

Just the MU in general, really. Anything that we should respect from you, anything you should respect from us. Essentially our aim is to simply calculate the Match up ratio. So anything that's noteworthy to you in this MU, be sure to list. Preferably in detail. You're the link expert after all, not us.

 

[Moobussir]

Toon Link main here, I can't say I have enough true Luigi tourney experience to give good matchup knowledge, but I can give some generals.

Obviously Toon Link is going to be keeping Luigi away as much as possible in this MU. Luigi's ground and air speed is not high enough to get in very easily (though perfect shield approaching through projectiles might work). Toon Link's combo's can easily knock Luigi off the edge at even mid percents, where Luigi will need to be careful recovering to the ledge. Gimping Luigi is easy if he's not careful in mixing up a lot, and as safely as he can.

Our projectiles are going to be intercepting you left and right. Boomerang controls aerial space and approaches, and bombs control aerial space and work for approaches and combo's. Since your air speed is slow, bombs are going to be in the air trying to restrict your motions, and put us in favourable positions. And Boomerang will do a good job at keeping you on toes, since it comes out faster then pulling out a bomb, and can be hard to avoid.

Luigi's definitely going to have a hard time getting in, and his combo's aren't the most effective since Toon Link's on the lighter side, but you do have better frame data to interrupt us well. Toon Link's fastest frame is frame 6 without bombs, so we won't be able to interrupt you very easily once you're in. Both of our attacks have similar ranges, though your Bair is an outlier, with long range good for trying to poke us out. Toon Link's have a bubble of space they like to control, so intercepting that is a good way to mess us up. Luigi has multiple strong finishers to KO Toon Link with, though we'll do wise to keep you away when you're looking for a KO. You'll need to do something tricky and unexpected to KO us, say a Rising Cyclone.

In general, I do think Toon Link has the advantage since Luigi doesn't have the most effective tools to get in. Luigi's are going to need to be patient to try and get an opening and capitalize on whatever they can. I want to hear what you guys think about fighting us as well, since I'm newer to the boards then most, though I'm actively participating.

Also, if anyone's willing, I'd like to play online in a few vs matches so we can both learn about the matchup. PM me and we'll plan it!

PS. I play/main Luigi as well, though I want to get better. I'll join the Luigi boards in the near future!

 

[Yonder]

First Cloud matchup: Holy bejesus is this one uphill for Luigi. One of his worst for sure.

More detail to come.

 

[G. Stache]

First Cloud matchup: Holy bejesus is this one uphill for Luigi. One of his worst for sure.

More detail to come.

Really? I found it more annoying than hard (kind of like Falco). Honestly, it's hard to get in, but once you do how does he get you off effectively? His recovery's also trash without limit break, which means you force him to use his limit break, or you edge guard and get a stock off him. Our fireball also outspams blade beam of need be. Granted, his mobility and giant sword make it a hassle getting in too effectively, and limit break is scary when you're not in an advantage state. Clouds will obviously play more efficiently in the future, and I can see it becoming a bad MU, but for now I don't see it as a bad MU. But, who knows, maybe you found something out that I haven't. It's only day 2 of Cloud, so maybe I'm missing something vital to his play. I'm interested to hear why you think it's a horrible MU.

 

[Yonder]

Really? I found it more annoying than hard (kind of like Falco). Honestly, it's hard to get in, but once you do how does he get you off effectively? His recovery's also trash without limit break, which means you force him to use his limit break, or you edge guard and get a stock off him. Our fireball also outspams blade beam of need be. Granted, his mobility and giant sword make it a hassle getting in too effectively, and limit break is scary when you're not in an advantage state. Clouds will obviously play more efficiently in the future, and I can see it becoming a bad MU, but for now I don't see it as a bad MU. But, who knows, maybe you found something out that I haven't. It's only day 2 of Cloud, so maybe I'm missing something vital to his play. I'm interested to hear why you think it's a horrible MU.

Essentially, Cloud's mobility , range, and limit make this so hard for Luigi in a nutshell. Unlike most of the other swords in this game, their frame data doesn't come close to Luigi's, but I think Cloud might have the best so far out of them. His aerial and ground mobility might be along the best of the swords. Then you got his hair that is harder to land against than Falcon's uair, nair doesn't break through it. Cloud's fair can easily spike Luigi during his missile . probably the most annoying part of the matchup is if Cloud hits you with a limited projectile, Luigi is so slow getting back that Cloud has already charged another limit. Unlike Mac, Cloud can charge his limit and keep it too along with blasting range. Cloud's recovery isn't great and you can bait his limit out for that, but wow have I found this one harder than most so far. Not as bad as Sheik/Mega man tier, but time will tell. At least the projectile clanks with fireball. I also feels Luigi doesn't get as much off a d throw as he could on Cloud.

 

[TriTails]

Never use Missile to recover if you can JC.

Garbage Missile makes Mac's D-air look good for edgeguarding.

Or at least go low. Cloud can't hit you there because of his booty recovery.

 

[G. Stache]

Never use Missile to recover if you can JC.

Garbage Missile makes Mac's D-air look good for edgeguarding.

Or at least go low. Cloud can't hit you there because of his booty recovery.

Tbh you should always go low with Missile if you actually want it to do its job and recover. But yeah, also it should be mentioned that cyclone gimping is literally free in every shape and form on Cloud without limit break up b. So the edge guards go both ways

Essentially, Cloud's mobility , range, and limit make this so hard for Luigi in a nutshell. Unlike most of the other swords in this game, their frame data doesn't come close to Luigi's, but I think Cloud might have the best so far out of them. His aerial and ground mobility might be along the best of the swords. Then you got his hair that is harder to land against than Falcon's uair, nair doesn't break through it. Cloud's fair can easily spike Luigi during his missile . probably the most annoying part of the matchup is if Cloud hits you with a limited projectile, Luigi is so slow getting back that Cloud has already charged another limit. Unlike Mac, Cloud can charge his limit and keep it too along with blasting range. Cloud's recovery isn't great and you can bait his limit out for that, but wow have I found this one harder than most so far. Not as bad as Sheik/Mega man tier, but time will tell. At least the projectile clanks with fireball. I also feels Luigi doesn't get as much off a d throw as he could on Cloud.

I can see where your coming from (and it should be noted that Mario has a much easier time against cloud anyways) but I still think that cloud isn't that bad for Luigi. Limit break, mobility and aerials are the only really scary things he has. For instance, his smashes aren't that great: his U smash really isn't that good in general, d smash can be teched, and f smash is a free grab or up b on whiff (though it's really strong when it does hit, killing you at around 90-100% at the edge). His edge guarding would be great except he has the recovery of Roy...but somehow worse without a limit break usage. His specials obviously aren't too great without limit break (up b is ****e, side b can be fallen out of, neutral b is the only good one...and I guess down is actually good in its own way). His recovery becomes more and more exploitable each day. Honestly, I cyclone gimp clouds up b and instead of his sword stopping me, it trades. So Cloud gets sent down and takes an extra 1% while I reclaim the stage and prepare for another alleged edge guard. Finally, while clouds gravity and weight seem weird to me right now, I'm getting plenty enough off d throw to the point where, as long as I don't play stupidly, I'm always at least 30% lower than he is at all times. Also, Cloud has troubled against shields

Some problems I've had with Cloud, however: big buster sword make his aerials scary enough so I never try to challenge them. I struggle to get kills outside of edge guards, so b throw and f throw I find to be much more useful than d throw once you have him at 80%ish or over. Limit break specials are scary and need to be respected, have your shield ready, is all I can say. Down b can't penetrate shields like KO punch can, neutral b is transcendent, so fire balls do nothing to it, and side be can kill you at rather low percentages. Not sure how good his limit break up b is besides recovery however. And finally, lame Cloud is as annoying as you'd expect with that Mewtwo-like mobility. Which is why Mario is extra helpful for the Cloud battles. I don't know, but I think the MU looks very doable for both sides as of now. But as the Cloud meta develops, I'm sure we'll see how things really turn out. Feel free to point out things that I haven't noticed.

 

[TriTails]

Cloud's F-smash is ********. Hits three times and huge*** hitbox. It also kills at 80%-ish at the ledge if I'm not mistaken.
D-smash is only techable if you DI the first hit downward. Considering how fast it is and DI requirements, it's not that easy to tech.
U-smash is... okay I suppose.

I've heard Could's U-air is a stupid move to fight also. The move hits below him at the first frames, making it useful for approaching, and hitbox stays forever.

Overall, haven't been having much trouble with Cloud, but I need to fight actual Cloud mains before I judge. FGs are the only training grounds I have too.

Tbh you should always go low with Missile if you actually want it to do its job and recover. But yeah, also it should be mentioned that cyclone gimping is literally free in every shape and form on Cloud without limit break up b. So the edge guards go both ways

Going low risk yourself getting stage-spiked after double jump SJP. SJP's invincibility only lasts for 3 frames (First half on the way up). If you lose your double jump, even things like sourspot B-air poses trouble. FG Falcons have been doing this lately and while I'm thankful their timings weren't the best thing ever, I'd shudder to the day where everyone just puts a sex kick or lingering aerials on the way and trade with SJP sourspot, which can mean instant death unless you have JC mashing capabilities while they take 1%.

I have been mixing up with in front of the ledge SJP instead of directly below. 2 ledge frames vulnerability I've heard doesn't exist if you grab the ledge from above, and this way, SJP can tank even bowling balls. There's also doing it a fair distance away and shoot up and fall while helpless to the ledge, but get hit and kiss bye bye to your stock. There's a lot of ways Luigi can recover, but all of them tend to be gimpable easily.

Better thank Mr. Sakurai to not bringing back edgehog, else we'll be having trouble with SJP's 3 seconds of landing lag and eat a charged F-smash everytime we recover.

 

[G. Stache]

Right, a little late to update, but I think we could talk about two of the few blokes who received buffs in the most recent patch.
Bowser comes to mind with his new "Showtime" combo spicing things up and making this MU probably quite a bit more scary and Lucas. He got a huge grab buff, so why not talk about those two for a bit. Again, sorry for not updating. Just a bit of last minute work was crammed into my schedule before my school was off for X mas break. Updating is probably gonna be next Wednsday so we actually have time to debate these two MU's. In the meantime, get to discussing and while I try to get the other boards to chime in.

 

[G. Stache]

So, I'm extremely sorry about ditching you lot. I've had a very perplexing schedule for the holidays so I've been busy for a bit. Not really able to be on this site for much time at all. Anyways, I see that nobody has really done anything this week to talk about Bowser and Lucas, so I'll extend this until next Sunday (AKA not this upcoming one). I'll actually get the other boards to contribute and when I have a wee bit more time, I'll post my position about Bowser (definitely still in our favor). Other than that, feel free to give your stance on these two MU's.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I never felt threatened too much by Luigi. Yeah, he's got the advantage, but it's not a matchup that you ever really counterpick. Everybody has trouble for the same reasons, so just stick with Bowser. I don't want to make the assumption you guys don't know what a weight based throw is, but I'm stuck explaining this to Marios and Captain Falcons all the time so I won't take the chance. Your throws being weight based means that Luigi suffers more endlag when throwing Bowser than he does lighter targets like Sheik and Pikachu. What's the difference between Dthrowing Bowser and Jigglypuff? 8 frames of endlag, I counted. And you know what, even 8 frames means virtually nothing. We're the best equipped character for escaping and still can't do it. With Falcon, he gets nothing guaranteed on us out of Dthrow, and Mario is incapable of true followups until like, 30 or 40% damage, and then you have Luigi's, which remains fair and balanced. I guess it warrants mention that his Uthrow business at low percent shouldn't work on us. Weight based, you get the idea. And if the Bowser is well aware of points where followups won't work, while the Luigi doesn't, we can respond with a double jump Dair punish to both land and reset the neutral. That goes doubly so for the spooky Cyclone kill mixup at high percent, we out prioritize you.

One aspect where we really seem to shine is keeping Luigi off of us. Jabbable running speed, tiltable air approaches. Fireball is no issue either. At the move's optimally safe range, we just do a quick burst of Fire Breath on reaction to delete it and singe Luigi. We have zero reason to try shielding this projectile unless you're using it at a very unsafe range. We also have tough guy armor that makes us never flinch from the move until 50-70ish% depending on strong or soft hit. Allowing us to run right through it to dash grab him. Dash grab punishes meant almost nothing other than 12% damage before, but now it's sort of an important deal. Now we can be the ones who are "fair and balanced". But that tough guy related advantage against Fireball is lost immediately after Luigi's first or second round of throw combos, so this information rarely comes into play. Between tough guy and Fire Breath, there's little to be gained in trying out Fireballs on Bowser.

Edgeguarding Luigi seems pretty reasonable, and we're better at that too now that we can ledgesnap behind us during Fortress. Missing a runoff Fair doesn't result in us getting edgeguarded by good players anymore. Unfortunately, I don't think we can fall in front of Luigi's Side B to stunt his recovery too well. We just can't get out that far in time for him to be blocked. Not without a certain custom move. And the double jump Cyclone is pretty unreasonable for us to hit with aerials, except Dair, but that would kill us too. Maybe if we jumped off with a timed Fair to swipe him as he ascends past us. Our limbs are intangible during active hit frames on most of our moves. But the odds of it working are pretty slim. Much of this is also applicable to hitting Luigi out of Up B, but Super Jump punch isn't the type of move that gives you any time to react to. If we don't have the time to get offstage, we'll stay on and just cover ledge options with Fortress. It won't kill, but it will send you right back out there for something harder.

We have our tricks for this MU, and a similarly good throw combo/kill confirm, but the cost of letting Luigi in is still considerably high. 45:55 disadvantage for Bowser. Possibly even if the average Luigi continues to do wildly unsafe and optimistic things in the neutral. But I prefer matchup ratings be based on factual points rather than personal experience.

 

[G. Stache]

I never felt threatened too much by Luigi. Yeah, he's got the advantage, but it's not a matchup that you ever really counterpick. Everybody has trouble for the same reasons, so just stick with Bowser. I don't want to make the assumption you guys don't know what a weight based throw is, but I'm stuck explaining this to Marios and Captain Falcons all the time so I won't take the chance. Your throws being weight based means that Luigi suffers more endlag when throwing Bowser than he does lighter targets like Sheik and Pikachu. What's the difference between Dthrowing Bowser and Jigglypuff? 8 frames of endlag, I counted. And you know what, even 8 frames means virtually nothing. We're the best equipped character for escaping and still can't do it. With Falcon, he gets nothing guaranteed on us out of Dthrow, and Mario is incapable of true followups until like, 30 or 40% damage, and then you have Luigi's, which remains fair and balanced. I guess it warrants mention that his Uthrow business at low percent shouldn't work on us. Weight based, you get the idea. And if the Bowser is well aware of points where followups won't work, while the Luigi doesn't, we can respond with a double jump Dair punish to both land and reset the neutral. That goes doubly so for the spooky Cyclone kill mixup at high percent, we out prioritize you.

One aspect where we really seem to shine is keeping Luigi off of us. Jabbable running speed, tiltable air approaches. Fireball is no issue either. At the move's optimally safe range, we just do a quick burst of Fire Breath on reaction to delete it and singe Luigi. We have zero reason to try shielding this projectile unless you're using it at a very unsafe range. We also have tough guy armor that makes us never flinch from the move until 50-70ish% depending on strong or soft hit. Allowing us to run right through it to dash grab him. Dash grab punishes meant almost nothing other than 12% damage before, but now it's sort of an important deal. Now we can be the ones who are "fair and balanced". But that tough guy related advantage against Fireball is lost immediately after Luigi's first or second round of throw combos, so this information rarely comes into play. Between tough guy and Fire Breath, there's little to be gained in trying out Fireballs on Bowser.

Edgeguarding Luigi seems pretty reasonable, and we're better at that too now that we can ledgesnap behind us during Fortress. Missing a runoff Fair doesn't result in us getting edgeguarded by good players anymore. Unfortunately, I don't think we can fall in front of Luigi's Side B to stunt his recovery too well. We just can't get out that far in time for him to be blocked. Not without a certain custom move. And the double jump Cyclone is pretty unreasonable for us to hit with aerials, except Dair, but that would kill us too. Maybe if we jumped off with a timed Fair to swipe him as he ascends past us. Our limbs are intangible during active hit frames on most of our moves. But the odds of it working are pretty slim. Much of this is also applicable to hitting Luigi out of Up B, but Super Jump punch isn't the type of move that gives you any time to react to. If we don't have the time to get offstage, we'll stay on and just cover ledge options with Fortress. It won't kill, but it will send you right back out there for something harder.

We have our tricks for this MU, and a similarly good throw combo/kill confirm, but the cost of letting Luigi in is still considerably high. 45:55 disadvantage for Bowser. Possibly even if the average Luigi continues to do wildly unsafe and optimistic things in the neutral. But I prefer matchup ratings be based on factual points rather than personal experience.

Very good points (though I thought d throw wasn't weight dependant, but I guess the data I read was wrong), though I have a few questions. First: landing options. Bowser is notoriously bad at landing and him being relatively floaty and having horrible end lag on unsuccessful landing attempts. What does he have to land against Luigi? Second: edge guarding. You explained how edge guarding is against Luigi, but how about Luigi's edge guards against you? I'd imagine cyclone gimping is rather free on Bowser's up b, but I've been wrong before. Lastly, I've heard that Bowser's hoo hah (which I'm calling the 'Showtime' combo) is a bit unreliable on floaties. At least, compared to fast fallers. If you could clear these things up, then that'd be really helpful.

 

[Hath]

Yo, Lucas main here, here to add as well as ask any the MU.

I don't fight Luigi often, but when I do, I'm normally a little scared. Luigi is/was high tier, so he obviously has some nice moves, but I'm not sure how he'd do with Lucas.

Lucas is floaty af. Luigi is dependant on combos. Lucas has tons of air mobility and tons of lag-less ariels. He can airdodge like crazy, and combo like a mf.

Luigi slides; that is an important part in Lucas's matchup in my opinion. We can shove you away with PK Fire as well as Up-smash on your shield, which is an extremely unsafe super strong move made safe. We can absorb your projectile as well as reflect it.
Our Down-smash hits 3 times below the stage, so you could be gimped, especially with a return like yours. PK Freeze also beats out Side-B, Up-B, and Down-B.
We have some disjointed ariels, so we can keep you away (Fair, Bair, Dair).

Never considered it till just now, but it seems like Lucas has a massive advantage. Sorry, yo. I hope some other dudes chip in for me.

EDIT:

Okay, I watched some videos of Luigi v. Lucas, and Luigi is extremely rush-downy against him. If Lucas can't breathe, back away, and keep you away, then he's going down. Your grab lead to a lot, but the only move that really has an effect on us is Down-B. We can't really DI away with your amount of movement, and it covers our airdodge.

The point of very safe moves on your shield still stand, you just have to keep us off the ground and stay out from above us.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Very good points (though I thought d throw wasn't weight dependant, but I guess the data I read was wrong), though I have a few questions. First: landing options. Bowser is notoriously bad at landing and him being relatively floaty and having horrible end lag on unsuccessful landing attempts. What does he have to land against Luigi? Second: edge guarding. You explained how edge guarding is against Luigi, but how about Luigi's edge guards against you? I'd imagine cyclone gimping is rather free on Bowser's up b, but I've been wrong before. Lastly, I've heard that Bowser's hoo hah (which I'm calling the 'Showtime' combo) is a bit unreliable on floaties. At least, compared to fast fallers. If you could clear these things up, then that'd be really helpful.

Bowser does have trouble landing. He is a crashing zeppelin in both size and lack of grace. Our primary difficulty is having no move that strikes below us. The ones that do (Dair, Down B) are not good for landing. Though Nair has some cute tricks, it's a gamble trying to fall on top of people with it. Defenders don't know how to shield and punish a move that deals between 1-4 hits seemingly at random. However, Bowser's landing difficulties are often massively overplayed. When the attacker is directly under us, it's a problem, but there's nothing that dictates that we must tech the ground, nor use an aerial with 20-40 landing lag. Our side B is lagless. If you're familiar with A-landing, we can do that, but with an aerial command grab. And no autocancel timing is required. Whether the grab had become active or not, we only suffer Autocancel lag (for Bowser, it's 6 frames instead of 4). We can either use it early enough to put out a grab, or mindgame by waiting until the last frames before landing. The opponent would expect a tech chase scenario, when Bowser is suddenly standing upright with shield or jab. It also lets us face whichever direction we would need by virtue of being a side special. Put all the options together, and it's a fun guessing game between players. Fall with Nair to trade or beat attacks, fall with Side B to beat shield, A-land for a mixup with any of Bowser's ground options. But the absolute safest is drifting to a ledge and Bombing down to grab it. Some opponents are just too dangerous to land against, like Greninja's running Usmash

I don't know how Luigi edgeguards us. Honestly, I was not aware he had any edgeguard game. Bad air speed, bad range, weak aerials. His Dair doesn't have that good disjoint to smite our Fortress like other spikes can. You would get caught in the move's multihits. If I had to guess your best option, grabbing the ledge, and letting go to perform a Bair should knock us back out there. Our Up B is an easy target when we travel horizontally. But knowing that, we always prefer flying straight up, even if it requires blowing our double jump for some extra air time. We're not DK, our recovery has a mashing mechanism for gaining height. Luigi lacks a sword, a bowling ball, or a hard knuckle to really challenge our vertical/diagonal flight path. I don't know how cyclone gimping works, but I know Luigi shouldn't blow his best vertical recovery move by getting too low to use that.

I'm a poor source for Bowser's Uthrow combos, but it works like your Dthrow. Fast falling characters are the most susceptible to every aspect. There's a Uthrow to Fair to regrab combo that only works on them, Nair, Fair, and Bair can all connect a mid %, and there is this sweetspot % that's too low for them to possibly save themselves with DI, but too high for them to survive an Uair. I don't suspect such a sweetspot range is available on floaties like Luigi, but we're still in a position for further tricks like baiting air dodges, conditioning specific behavior. The Uthrow is still a huge factor, because having a combo throw suddenly validates much of our air game, our excellent grabs, and our high knockback moveset. People go crazy over the showtime because it's an easy means of killing that everybody can understand at a glance. But we can kill by landing potentially anything. Jab to Flying Slam. Bomb punishes, edgeguarding, stray tilts.

 

[G. Stache]

I don't know how Luigi edgeguards us. Honestly, I was not aware he had any edgeguard game. Bad air speed, bad range, weak aerials. His Dair doesn't have that good disjoint to smite our Fortress like other spikes can. You would get caught in the move's multihits. If I had to guess your best option, grabbing the ledge, and letting go to perform a Bair should knock us back out there. Our Up B is an easy target when we travel horizontally. But knowing that, we always prefer flying straight up, even if it requires blowing our double jump for some extra air time. We're not DK, our recovery has a mashing mechanism for gaining height. Luigi lacks a sword, a bowling ball, or a hard knuckle to really challenge our vertical/diagonal flight path. I don't know how cyclone gimping works, but I know Luigi shouldn't blow his best vertical recovery move by getting too low to use that.

Essentially, you use a jump less cyclone to gimp. If you can actually gain height with the jump less cyclone, then you can actually go pretty deep. If not (which is my case), you wait for the opponent to try to snap to the ledge and gimp them there, staying close to the ledge. Not only this, but cyclone seems to always have favorable trades with the recoveries that have hit boxes. You go down and I go straight up. I've never tried it on bowser (hard to find a good bowser these days), but I'd imagine it does the same trade with the other recoveries that have hit boxes. Also, if you're not using the up special, the hit lag on cyclone makes it a bit easier to rise while you're caught in it. Also, walk off Fair and Dair aren't too shabby as other options, but you tend to want to cyclone gimp.

 

[TriTails]

Trading with Fortress is very favorable because of the 3% or 2% hits. Cyclone trading will spike Bowser nonetheless, D-air don't need to spike to setup for a ledgedrop B-air due to its angle, B-air probably just laugh and beat Fortress (Even if they DO trade... it's 3% vs 14%), F-air is not too shabby, but it doesn't kill.

If it helps, I've spiked Fire Fox with pre-patch D-air spike (Before the hitbox got buffed) while he was shooting upwards. Definitely not impossible to spike hitbox recoveries. I think I've spiked Fox before he shoots up too, but I'm not 100% sure on that one.

Cyclone will only be the bane of our existence if we don't rise and we fall during the endlag (If you rise, you'll hang in the air instead of falling). Even then, double jump SJP covers great vertical distance. Definitely not recommended for people not having the capabilities to consistently mash 12 times/sec tho.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If you're confident in these moves for edgeguarding, then I won't disagree. I'm always telling Bowsers to keep center stage so that the match is spent doing as little recovering as possible. Surviving up to 150 or so % thanks to our weight never looks impressive when you're spending the last 50% of that being edgeguarded. Fortress has the distance and height necessary to reach the ledge, but not the protection against incoming attacks.

Something else I did not mention is that our grounded fortress covers ledge options. It has a rehit rate and allows for movement in case we were a bit mispaced to cover ledge roll initially. If Bowser is sitting patiently at that ledge after you've grabbed it, then you'll know what he's going to do. The move is fast enough to perform on reaction to any ledge option animation, but it doesn't cover ledge let go aerials. That's why the ultimate strategy is to be prepared to perform Fortress, but also with a finger hovering over shield to block an aerial. Dropping shield for a Dtilt punish should secure a kill on characters with poor recovery, or if they just have around 100% damage. Getting hit by the Fortress in contrast is not the end of the world. It doesn't kill at any reasonable percent, deals low damage and has a higher launch angle. But it will let us be in a position for a harder, offstage punish.