Data Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread

[Legato]

Hey guys, I've en experimenting with this little green plumber and had something weird happen the other day against villager.

I used up b through villager while he was recovering and it gimped him. I did not sweet spot it, and I did hit the villager himself, but went through him and popped the balloons. Anyone else know if this is consistent or just a fluke?

 

[Luco]

Oh, someone said something earlier in this thread about Ness' magnet being heavily punishable if he absorbs fireballs, and I just wanted to mention that this isn't true because Ness should always be magnet-cancelling with a jump or backward roll when he absorbs a fireball.

You can test it if you like, but try going Ness and absorbing something with magnet, As soon as the energy projectile comes into contact with the magnet, press either up, down or backwards and Ness will cancel the end-lag of the magnet and jump, spot-dodge or roll respectively. He used to be able to forward roll too but he can't do that anymore *sadness*

 

[shrooby]

Hey guys, we're discussing the Luigi match-up in the Dedede forum:

http://smashboards.com/threads/read...iscussing-the-year-of-luigi-6-12-6-16.395045/

Input from your guys' end would be most appreciated.~

 

[Newt:D]

So I have an important question about Luigi, do you guys think that Up-Throw to Tornado at the top of the stage is a solid Kill option? And what are other notable kill options? Thanks in advance!

 

[MonkeyArms]

Roy and Ryu are coming out?
More good match ups for us.

 

[Yonder]

Roy and Ryu are coming out?
More good match ups for us.

Unless they...aren't. Ryu could be troublesome depending on how hadoukens work. Lucas will probably be even, Roy may be even too. Again, complete theorycrafting.

 

[hey_there]

After playing against Lucinas/Marths that space well, focus on poking, and rarely approach, I'm no longer sure those match-ups are in Luigi's favour, and I'm starting to think its possibly in their favour. Once they get Luigi off-stage, bair and counter stops Luigi's recovery dead in its tracks. Recovering high, mid, or low gets a bair during the end lag of cyclone. Counter murders missile, and since missile is so slow the Lucina/Marth can just react to it and counter. Again, if they focus on keeping Luigi out, Fireball gets eaten up by spaced aerials pretty easily and it's tough to get in. Once Luigi gets in, it's business as usual, but I'm really starting to play cautiously against Swords now.

Basically what I'm saying is I'm not sure Roy will be in our favour. As for Ryu, his fiery hadouken and invincible shoryuken are really concerning. Fiery hadouken is multi-hit and might just go through our fireballs and since Ryu can combo into specials, invincible shoryuken will beat out combo breaking nairs.

 

[Deleted member]

I think that Lucas will give us hell personally.
I think his PK Thunder is better, his down throw gives him deadly setups, he has some good aerials, and his up smash is so powerful that it could be used on the ledge. I might be over exaggerating, though. I think Lucas will give us trouble.

Ryu also has the makings of a good character... I think he is going to be top tier really. From what I've seen, he is going to be tough. I bet his specials will pressure us and he could combo into them...

Roy, I'm not too concerned for since he has to rely on close range combat, but he does have ridiculous air speed. That might be one in our favor.

 

[TriTails]

I think we may need to actually get the characters to get out first, THEN we can discuss. This type of discussing based solely only on trailers that is not clear in any kind is kind of a waste of posts in the match-up discussion thread. I'd say we give them one month to actually start analyzing the MUs.

I mean, who knows? There might be a balance patch coming in (Though, unlikely), or Ryu/Lucas/Roy aren't as strong as people would give credit to them for in the trailer (Rosalina's trailer literally shows on how easy it is to gimp Balloon Trip. Almost impossible to do here, or on how people think Palutena would be broken with that U-smash, etc).

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Man I just played a good link and I COULD NOT get in. Constant pressure with projectiles and basically camping me out. I need to improve my power shielding.

 

[Yonder]

Man I just played a good link and I COULD NOT get in. Constant pressure with projectiles and basically camping me out. I need to improve my power shielding.

If you think Link is bad...Toon Link is like Link 2.0. Faster, better Dair that pushes Luigi away so he can't punish,faster projectiles, not as easy to fair chain...ugh. Link isn't easy, but I think Luigi can out speed him and Link is one of the few characters Luigi can legitimately fair chain grab at 0%. Also gale boomerang can actually help your approach coming back at times...Uair from Link is very annoying though.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

If you think Link is bad...Toon Link is like Link 2.0. Faster, better Dair that pushes Luigi away so he can't punish,faster projectiles, not as easy to fair chain...ugh. Link isn't easy, but I think Luigi can out speed him and Link is one of the few characters Luigi can legitimately fair chain grab at 0%. Also gale boomerang can actually help your approach coming back at times...Uair from Link is very annoying though.

Yeah man toon link is rough as well. Pretty tough matchups overall especially against good players.

 

[TriTails]

EDIT: Never mind me.

 

[SirJuicius]

Man I just played a good link and I COULD NOT get in. Constant pressure with projectiles and basically camping me out. I need to improve my power shielding.

Hello, Newman...

When I first played online in SSB4, I had a hard time dealing with Links and Tinks because they wouldn't allow you inside. You just have to play to their strength and have it go against them. How do you do that? Just play along with the arrows and projectiles. Come in, let Link use a projectile, then evade while moving out. Come back in. Shoot some fire balls while you're at it. Keep the Link complacent with projectiles. If Link throws the boomerang, get in front of it as it's returning to Link. He'll likely try to hit you with f-smash, but if you block it, you can get in a grab.

 

[TriTails]

I also imagine walk to shield would be effective instead of the usual 'Dash towards enemies. Derp'. It allows for more friction (You can turn around faster when walking. Turning around when dashing is very slippery) and more options overall.

Honestly though. I can't think of a character that loses to Link simply because of 'projectile spam' because with smart shieldings and tactics they can be surpressed. I think Link's favorable MUs is where he can utilize his range and power efficiently and not get out-stripped in the process. Link can use his range and power to Luigi, sure. But Luigi beats him up really hard up close and Fireballs kinda stop 2 of his projectile.

Welp. I'm not exactly knowledgeable about Link.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Don't turn around while running. Run, shield, then turn around.

 

[Samura1man]

Hey Luigi mains, we should start to work with matchups discussions together, every week we should just talk about one character, maybe not the whole week but for couple days at least so we got enough knowledge to share.

I'm saying this so we can get first post completed together and make it look good, my friend @Trifroze has started matchup discussion thread in Captain Falcon's area on April and we should do the same with our character Luigi.

Luigi is considered to be high/top tier character by many people with different opinions, by working together and chatting with fellow players who plays with Mario, Bowser, Link etc. to find out pros. and cons. for both characters.

 

[TriTails]

Okay. Who is going to take the honors?

 

[Samura1man]

If anyone isn't going to, then I guess I have to, it will be a lot of work to me alone, to keep thread up to date, have everything written right.

 

[TriTails]

I agree with whoever do this thing. I would take the cake, but English isn't my mother tongue and my writings may become more boring and boring.

 

[Funkermonster]

*Sees ratio with being 45:55* Uh..... not that I play either character but I'm curious, how does Falcon beat Luigi?

 

[Ndzablou]

*Sees ratio with being 45:55* Uh..... not that I play either character but I'm curious, how does Falcon beat Luigi?

I will probably go into more detail later, with my personal opinion, but to be frank falcon's speed, dash grab and jab, make it harder for Luigi to approach, and also allows Falcon to approach easier.

 

[Yonder]

I will probably go into more detail later, with my personal opinion, but to be frank falcon's speed, dash grab and jab, make it harder for Luigi to approach, and also allows Falcon to approach easier.

Falcon's jab is completely nulified by Luigi, you can nair it on the first hit and trade doing more damage to Falcon. I'd say 45:55 Falcon's favor only due to sheer speed, dash grab, and uair. Falcon gets comboed hard and gimped hard by dair spike. Fireballs aren't too helpful because Falcon can work around them well and punish with a grab if Luigi misses. A totally manageable matchup. Kind of like an easier version of Little Mac to fight...

Some matchups in that post may need rediscussion though, for example I know I was the basis fo the 65:35 Luigi Samus matchup...but I think it's more like 55-45 or 60:40 Luigi. Charge shot, zair, and fair save Samus big time in this matchup.

 

[Funkermonster]

Falcon's jab is completely nulified by Luigi, you can nair it on the first hit and trade doing more damage to Falcon. I'd say 45:55 Falcon's favor only due to sheer speed, dash grab, and uair. Falcon gets comboed hard and gimped hard by dair spike. Fireballs aren't too helpful because Falcon can work around them well and punish with a grab if Luigi misses. A totally manageable matchup. Kind of like an easier version of Little Mac to fight...

Some matchups in that post may need rediscussion though, for example I know I was the basis fo the 65:35 Luigi Samus matchup...but I think it's more like 55-45 or 60:40 Luigi. Charge shot, zair, and fair save Samus big time in this matchup.

Wait... so does this mean you think wins against Luigi? I've heard a guy from the Mac boards say he thinks its the other way around. What about ? I once played the best Luigi in my state during a real close match and barely won it, but I'm not so sure how I feel about that one. Sorry for asking so many questions like this, I happen to find Weegee to be a fun character to fight against and I'd imagine these matchups being a real fun experience to engage in with my frens.

 

[Yonder]

Wait... so does this mean you think wins against Luigi? I've heard a guy from the Mac boards say he thinks its the other way around. What about ? I once played the best Luigi in my state during a real close match and barely won it, but I'm not so sure how I feel about that one. Sorry for asking so many questions like this, I happen to find Weegee to be a fun character to fight against and I'd imagine these matchups being a real fun experience to engage in with my frens.

Yeah, I think Mac beats Luigi 60:40 and no more than that. Super armor smashes wreck Luigi so hard as an upclose fighter And you cannot nair out of his jab like you can Falcon's. Mac can also punish for whiff fireballs or simply side b over them. Luigi does Gimp Mac like anyone else, but yeah. Basically Mac's close up eats Luigi alive so it makes it rough. A doable matchup though. Not amongst the absolute worst.

Duck Hunt...I can't say. He's the rarest character on For Glory along with WFT [who is still more common than DHD]. For the few I've versed I haven't had much troubles, but that's not much to base off of. Sorry!

 

[TriTails]

Falcon boards seem to agree vs Luigi is even. Falcon's speed is nothing if he can't get anything out of it. We force him to approach (Something he does pretty badly), we punish and combo him like a tyrant, we gimp him like LM, and we don't have problems killing thanks to D-throw + B-air.

Falcon can punish us hard though, and he does have range and tons of janky things (1/4th screen dash grab. DA, rapid jab ender, and F-smash hitting ten miles in front of him, U-air juggles, etc), which are why Luigi isn't favorable against Falcon. But Falcon doesn't beat him either. It's dead even IMO.

Yeah, I think Mac beats Luigi 60:40 and no more than that. Super armor smashes wreck Luigi so hard as an upclose fighter And you cannot nair out of his jab like you can Falcon's. Mac can also punish for whiff fireballs or simply side b over them. Luigi does Gimp Mac like anyone else, but yeah. Basically Mac's close up eats Luigi alive so it makes it rough. A doable matchup though. Not amongst the absolute worst.

What wreck Luigi aren't super armors, but their sheer speed, little end lag, and how powerful they are. Don't try to challenge him head-on, but play bait-and-punish playsytle. Get him to approach you with conservatively throwing Fireballs, and guess what he'll do, punish. He DOES wreck us if he gets in advantage though...

Oh, and I take that back. You CAN N-air his jab, just not as consistent. But if you do, chances you can score 2 N-airs on him due to how after you hit the first F-air, a hit from the rapid jab hits you, and enables you to N-air again. IMO, it's 55:45 LM. Shorthopping surprisingly work well against LM's D-smash, and Fireballs... He really need to F-tilt them or else he'll get punsihed (Jolt Haymaker can be punished if you play at Fireball's maximum range). We combo him hard, and like, we have no trouble gimping him. Tickle him off-stage and he is dead.

Oh, and also @ Y Yonder . What would you say if we start going to MU in detail like in Falcon's boards, so we can have two-sided POV of the MU (Because one character's POV is never enough)?

 

[Yonder]

Falcon boards seem to agree vs Luigi is even. Falcon's speed is nothing if he can't get anything out of it. We force him to approach (Something he does pretty badly), we punish and combo him like a tyrant, we gimp him like LM, and we don't have problems killing thanks to D-throw + B-air.

Falcon can punish us hard though, and he does have range and tons of janky things (1/4th screen dash grab. DA, rapid jab ender, and F-smash hitting ten miles in front of him, U-air juggles, etc), which are why Luigi isn't favorable against Falcon. But Falcon doesn't beat him either. It's dead even IMO.


What wreck Luigi aren't super armors, but their sheer speed, little end lag, and how powerful they are. Don't try to challenge him head-on, but play bait-and-punish playsytle. Get him to approach you with conservatively throwing Fireballs, and guess what he'll do, punish. He DOES wreck us if he gets in advantage though...

Oh, and I take that back. You CAN N-air his jab, just not as consistent. But if you do, chances you can score 2 N-airs on him due to how after you hit the first F-air, a hit from the rapid jab hits you, and enables you to N-air again. IMO, it's 55:45 LM. Shorthopping surprisingly work well against LM's D-smash, and Fireballs... He really need to F-tilt them or else he'll get punsihed (Jolt Haymaker can be punished if you play at Fireball's maximum range). We combo him hard, and like, we have no trouble gimping him. Tickle him off-stage and he is dead.

Oh, and also @ Y Yonder . What would you say if we start going to MU in detail like in Falcon's boards, so we can have two-sided POV of the MU (Because one character's POV is never enough)?

Im all for it, sounds like a good idea

 

[LuigiSmashBros]

Marios are really easy to handle. Using down throw, makes Mario open to a lot of combos, though he can escape with FRAME-PERFECT TIMING. Luigi's long-ranged f-smash can punish Mario along with High Knockback. Overall I'd say Luigi has a Advantage over Mario.

 

[TriTails]

Im all for it, sounds like a good idea

Who's gonna do it? Despite my earlier post, I'm willing to do it if anyone doesn't take the stage.

Luigi's long-ranged f-smash.

Uhm.

Uhhhhhmmmmmm.

You may want to take a second look on that.

 

[LuigiSmashBros]

Who's gonna do it? Despite my earlier post, I'm willing to do it if anyone doesn't take the stage.


Uhm.

Uhhhhhmmmmmm.

You may want to take a second look on that.

Well at least better than Little Macs range wise. Kappa

 

[MonkeyArms]

*Sees ratio with being 45:55* Uh..... not that I play either character but I'm curious, how does Falcon beat Luigi?

He doesn't. In fact, he's the easiest character to get a 0-death on. You can get 2 regrabs at low percent with one grab.

Yeah, I think Mac beats Luigi 60:40 and no more than that. Super armor smashes wreck Luigi so hard as an upclose fighter And you cannot nair out of his jab like you can Falcon's. Mac can also punish for whiff fireballs or simply side b over them. Luigi does Gimp Mac like anyone else, but yeah. Basically Mac's close up eats Luigi alive so it makes it rough. A doable matchup though. Not amongst the absolute worst.

Duck Hunt...I can't say. He's the rarest character on For Glory along with WFT [who is still more common than DHD]. For the few I've versed I haven't had much troubles, but that's not much to base off of. Sorry!

Lolwut. Do you even forward air? Just like with falcon, mac is extremely easy to combo and 0-death. If he gets off stage, no matter how he recovers, its extremely easy to punish.
If he goes for the ledge, forward air. If he recovers low, cyclone spike him. If he recovers high, just launch him offstage again.
Mac doesn't really have much against luigi, he's even with him in nuetral but that's it. Aside from that, he gets wrecked.

 

[Yonder]

He doesn't. In fact, he's the easiest character to get a 0-death on. You can get 2 regrabs at low percent with one grab.
Lolwut. Do you even forward air? Just like with falcon, mac is extremely easy to combo and 0-death. If he gets off stage, no matter how he recovers, its extremely easy to punish.
If he goes for the ledge, forward air. If he recovers low, cyclone spike him. If he recovers high, just launch him offstage again.
Mac doesn't really have much against luigi, he's even with him in nuetral but that's it. Aside from that, he gets wrecked.

1. Ganondorf is x10 easier than Falcon to 0 death.

2. Yeah,fair is good offstage but any character can gimp Mac so it's irrelevant. Mac dominates the ground hard and outspeeds Luigi while having just as fast of a moveset but more powerful with super armor. Counter messes up combos quite well actually and let's him take control. It's amazing how how Mac can punish Luigi while he is falling back to the stage. Super fast dash = Luigi lands, tries to nair or anything but super armored smash beats out everything. It's really hard to labnd.

Who's gonna do it? Despite my earlier post, I'm willing to do it if anyone doesn't take the stage.

I think you're a suitable candidate. Should probably make nominations or a process on what order we discuss characters.

 

[LuigiSmashBros]

He doesn't. In fact, he's the easiest character to get a 0-death on. You can get 2 regrabs at low percent with one grab.
Lolwut. Do you even forward air? Just like with falcon, mac is extremely easy to combo and 0-death. If he gets off stage, no matter how he recovers, its extremely easy to punish.
If he goes for the ledge, forward air. If he recovers low, cyclone spike him. If he recovers high, just launch him offstage again.
Mac doesn't really have much against luigi, he's even with him in nuetral but that's it. Aside from that, he gets wrecked.

Yeah, Luigi vs. C. Falcon isn't even f-air.

 

[MonkeyArms]

1. Ganondorf is x10 easier than Falcon to 0 death.

2. Yeah,fair is good offstage but any character can gimp Mac so it's irrelevant. Mac dominates the ground hard and outspeeds Luigi while having just as fast of a moveset but more powerful with super armor. Counter messes up combos quite well actually and let's him take control. It's amazing how how Mac can punish Luigi while he is falling back to the stage. Super fast dash = Luigi lands, tries to nair or anything but super armored smash beats out everything. It's really hard to labnd.


I think you're a suitable candidate. Should probably make nominations or a process on what order we discuss characters.

You would think ganon is easy to 0-death until you realise ganon doesn't fast fall and his down b interupts combos nicely.

Allow me to say it again: No matter how many characters can do it, its still a part of the match up that shouldn't be ignored. In fact, Luigi can edge guard mac better than most the cast. If you are getting countered, you aren't using legit combos. His counter is extremely easy to read and should not combo break, his nair however, easily does. Super armor smash does not beat sweet spotting the ledge or down b lol. It doesn't matter how fast little mac is, because one punish for luigi=3 punishes for little mac. throwing fireballs interupts his speed and his jolt haymaker is very punishable.
He is not as fast as luigi and has little to counter his short hop options LOL. If you even used short hop, you would know how bad this matchup actually is for little mac.

 

[TriTails]

O...kay...

Nomination time folks!

And I might just make a one thread of MUs instead of separate ones. What do you think of this @ Y Yonder ?

 

[Space Stranger]

Making one Match-up thread is the most organized way of discussing them. Creating 50+ threads for Luigi vs. each character will become too disorganized. To coordinate, we should devote a week or so to a select character.

I know this was already done before but it still helpful to know. Are we nominating a new opponent for matchup discussion?

 

[SirJuicius]

Well, the Wario board is currently discussing the matchup against Luigi, so it might be nice to break down that matchup. As a Wario main, I've already broken down how I feel about his matchup against Luigi and as a Luigi main, I'm prepared to break down the matchup against Wario.

 

[TriTails]

Assuming I'm the one who build the MU thread (And yes. I agree. Creating 50+ threads will only litter the board considering on how inactive Luigi board kinda is), I will devote a week discussing TWO characters instead of one to speed up the process. I don't think analyzing one character versus another will take seven full days. What do you think about this guys?

Well, the Wario board is currently discussing the matchup against Luigi, so it might be nice to break down that matchup. As a Wario main, I've already broken down how I feel about his matchup against Luigi and as a Luigi main, I'm prepared to break down the matchup against Wario.

Nah. If they are discussing us, we shouldn't go discussing their character at the same time. IMO it'd be a waste of time. We better off discussing characters that haven't been discussing Luigi recently so when we finally discuss that character in another time, we can compare on how the MU opinions have changed.

I'm going to write the OP in Notepad or Ms. Word now. If @ Y Yonder agrees, I will make the MU thread. Nominate the characters now guys!

If there are no nominations, I will go Little Mac + Sheik since those are MUs that we haven't really gone deep and/or haven't recieved analysis from the respective characters' mains.

 

[Yonder]

Assuming I'm the one who build the MU thread (And yes. I agree. Creating 50+ threads will only litter the board considering on how inactive Luigi board kinda is), I will devote a week discussing TWO characters instead of one to speed up the process. I don't think analyzing one character versus another will take seven full days. What do you think about this guys?


Nah. If they are discussing us, we shouldn't go discussing their character at the same time. IMO it'd be a waste of time. We better off discussing characters that haven't been discussing Luigi recently so when we finally discuss that character in another time, we can compare on how the MU opinions have changed.

I'm going to write the OP in Notepad or Ms. Word now. If @ Y Yonder agrees, I will make the MU thread. Nominate the characters now guys!

If there are no nominations, I will go Little Mac + Sheik since those are MUs that we haven't really gone deep and/or haven't recieved analysis from the respective characters' mains.

I give the green light. I nominate Sheik and Lucas.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Sheik and Falcon because they are two very popular characters that we'll see often in a competitive setting