Data Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread

[1PokeMastr]

This is giving me a headache.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey guys, the Greninja boards are going to discuss Luigi again: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...on-mewtwo-falco-luigi-5-4-5-11.369356/page-18

We're not looking for who wins the MU, as that was been discussed in both boards already, but more of a "how to win" discussion. Input from Luigi mains as to how we should best deal with Luigi would be greatly appreciated

 

[HeroMystic]

Rediscussion on Mario vs Luigi is happening: http://smashboards.com/threads/worl...dex-8-2-luigi-doc.387070/page-6#post-19122591

Bros before Frogs.

 

[FullMoon]

Bros before Frogs.

What about bros that are frogs?

 

[adom4]

Ganon got a buff in this matchup! At the range where Luigi's fireball only does 5%, Ganondorf does not clank with it when using fresh Dash Attack (which does 14%).

Though in close range, Ganon still struggles a lot to punish Luigi's fireball easily when clanking with the fireball with his ground moves leaves him at a punishable frame disadvantage (though it's worth keeping in mind that if Ganon can often be at a frame advantage in close range if he opts to simply get hit by the fireball instead when running in). This means in a custom environment, default Fireballs are actually better than Ice Balls in this matchup because Ganondorf can actually power through Ice Balls with his Dash Attack to control midrange and force Luigi on the defensive if he chooses that custom.

At any rate, Ganondorf generally has to guess in order to punish Luigi's fireball even when powershielding, and due to his low aerial mobility it's hard for him to get in range with aerials, though they do have good range and shield push which Luigi does have to be mindful of. Especially because Ganondorf does not have very quick attacks in close range, he also has to guess to defend against Luigi's grab. His 8 frame Jab is his fastest move and it's still quite laggy, though the recent damage buff it acquired is important in this matchup given it's one of Ganon's few responses to rushdown.

Both Ganon and Luigi kinda train wreck each other when they get rolling. Really...they both are able to juggle the crap out of each other and also have fairly limited ways to defend themselves offstage. However Ganon has to make riskier guesses generally and doesn't have the same extremely reliable KO confirm potential that Luigi has out of grab. D-throw cyclone as I recall is a KO option around 140ish, not really unlike Ness Back-throw, and Luigi has the potential to build possibly about half that damage in a good low% combo (something like D-throw -> aerials -> U-tilt -> stuff, I forget specifically what's optimal on Ganon).

I would believe this matchup is about 6/4 Luigi's favor. Luigi's huge combo game and ability to KO confirm are strong, but most importantly his ability to prevent Ganon from zoning with Dash Attack and aerials freely with his fireball make this matchup clearly favorable for him, though it's quite winnable for Ganon, just Ganon's forced to make a lot of risky guesses to play neutral when he can't rely as much on outpriotizing Luigi as he'd like in neutral to limit Luigi's decisions. If Luigi's Fireball universally did 1% less damage or Ganon's DA did 1% more damage, I would argue the matchup actually would be even. Clanking really puts limits on Ganon's neutral game here when Luigi is one of few characters that outright does not have to play around Ganon's Dash Attack.

I have not tried this matchup in customs, so I can't really add much else to that discussion, other than WDK being a little better for punishing predicted ground fireballs as well as improving Ganon's recovery. And of course Dark Fists is scary.

With customs i think this matchup is close to even, probably still a small advantage to Luigi though.
Wizard dropkick is Ganondorf's best option against fireballs because it goes through them & Dark fists is amazing on Luigi because of his bad range.

 

[A2ZOMG]

With customs i think this matchup is close to even, probably still a small advantage to Luigi though.
Wizard dropkick is Ganondorf's best option against fireballs because it goes through them & Dark fists is amazing on Luigi because of his bad range.

Aerial Flame Chain as I recall also goes through the fireballs. I haven't played this matchup in customs though, so I don't know if this is worth sacrificing Choke over.

 

[adom4]

Aerial Flame Chain as I recall also goes through the fireballs. I haven't played this matchup in customs though, so I don't know if this is worth sacrificing Choke over.

I don't like flame chain in general so i haven't really tried it & again choke isn't really worth giving up on IMO.

 

[Kisatamura]

Hey Luigis,

Docs are doing a re-discussion on Luigi, and with customs too!

 

[Dalxp26]

Just out of curiosity, what would you guys say are Luigi's worst match ups?

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

My personal worst are Mega Man and Dedede. In general, I would say Mega Man is his worst MU and custom Rosa

 

[Deleted member]

I think Luigi's worst match-up is Mega Man by far. Everything Luigi excels at, Mega Man can just prevent with his onslaught of projectiles.

I haven't fought a custom Rosalina with Luigi (but one of her Side Bs can go to hell, the one with the giant Star Bit), but regular Rosalina can be difficult for him.

 

[Yonder]

ROB is quite the pain too...his projectiles shut Luigi down so bad, a good ROB is usually untouched. Mega Man ain't great either but at least I can pull dair spikes on him well while he recovers.

 

[Saturn_]

It's well established that Captain Falcon is probably the most commonly played character in Smash4, and that therefore it's important to be up on your C.Falcon matchup knowledge. After some experimentation this is what I believe is Luigi's best 0% combo on C.Falcon:

Fireball-Grab (no pummel)-Dthrow-Fair-Fast Fall Nair-Grab (1 pummel)-Dthrow-Fair-Fair

Deals a little over 60% and is essentially a true combo. I'd appreciate any feedback. This is a great string to practice in the Training.

 

[pato_]

Hi all, I've been playing with Luigi for a little time and while I really enjoy playing with him I have a lot of trouble approaching someone like Link (I'm guessing this can transfer to anyone with lots of projectiles), they can easily keep me away with bombs and arrows, any tips for this particular matchup?

Thanks in advance

 

[veritron]

Hi all, I've been playing with Luigi for a little time and while I really enjoy playing with him I have a lot of trouble approaching someone like Link (I'm guessing this can transfer to anyone with lots of projectiles), they can easily keep me away with bombs and arrows, any tips for this particular matchup?

Thanks in advance

You can just run at people and shield-cancel the dash (blocking the projectiles) until you get close enough to throw fireballs, and generally, fireballs start winning once you get in range.

 

[Saturn_]

Just out of curiosity, what would you guys say are Luigi's worst match ups?

Villager.

 

[Yonder]

Bowser Jr's is pretty annoying too actually, mechakoopas screw with grab game a lot.

 

[kobyatchi]

VS Fox

Luigi has a great MU against Fox, being a Luigi and Fox main I can say that with confidence. However, there are some pros and cons to the MU.

Pros:
Luigi's fireball stops Fox's side-B in it's tracks
Fox has very predictable recovery when he is limited to his up-B if you can hit the side-B with a fireball
Luigi can break out of Fox's double jab combo as well as U-tilt with N-air
Easy followups out of D-throw (to be expected)
Fox struggles to combo when their opponent reaches around 90% and Luigi greatly benefits from rage with all smashes and down-B out of D-throw
Fox does not have many options for landing near Luigi, which is where he wants to be

Cons:
Luigi falls super slow and can be punished for it with Fox's U-air or B-air
Luigi is easily gimped by Fox's N-air or weak hits of F-air
Fox's reflector can mess with fireballs and ruin your approach. However, most people who play Fox do not realize how important their reflector is in the MU
Luigi's traction is terrible, smash attacks on shield are usually safe for Fox

Misc.
Fox is the fastest faller in the roster
Luigi can crawl under Fox's laser, keep in mind, Luigi's idle animation for just crouching can be hit by the lasers in some frames

Overall, I think the match-up is 65-35 in Luigi's favor. Campy Fox's can be a struggle because of lasers and his reflector, but if Luigi can get inside he has a greater advantage

 

[kobyatchi]

A great video of Boss and shofu as well. I'm aware it says customs but neither of them use them.

 

[TriTails]

Bowser Jr's is pretty annoying too actually, mechakoopas screw with grab game a lot.

I don't have problems with Jr.. Sure, he has things to throw out, but I pay them no respect (Not even the MechaKoopa). Whenever he throws out a MechaKoopa I usually just shield them because Jr.'s mobility is not enough to out-speed his MechaKoopa. Or jump over them. Jr. is better off fighting Luigi up-close, but is a combo meat too actually. I think this MU is in Luigi's favor, but I'm no expert at Jr..

 

[TriTails]

Pardon my double post. But I think we should create a thread dedicated to Luigi's MUs more in depth. I see @ FalKoopa has created MU threads, but almost no one post in them. I think we should create Ganon MU like thread to further improve our knowlege on the MU. Most discussions here is mostly one-sided and can be lacking.

Why Ganon like MU thread (Basically. All in one MU thread)? Because I feel that's a bit more organized and people don't seem to post in specific MU threads, literring the board with threads with post count of only one or two.

 

[Carotoking]

Is the villager matchup really that bad?
I found that fireballs spam is very effective since they destroy rockets, and pocket them is nearly useless for villager
The only thing to worry about are the gimps

 

[TriTails]

Is the villager matchup really that bad?
I found that fireballs spam is very effective since they destroy rockets, and pocket them is nearly useless for villager
The only thing to worry about are the gimps

Not sure much. Some say it's heavily in Villy's favor. Some say it's even. Some say it's slightly in Luigi's favor.

Vily's MU maight not be as bad as one might think (IMO 40:60). I think the only absolute 35:65 to 3:7 is MUEGAH MAYN (Can't resist. Blame the Announcer). Sheik isn't all that very problematic either. J. Miller figured it out against cyve, we should be able too!

I mean. Before Mr. CC got bodied by ZeRo's Sheik, nobody thinks she is as bad as MM. Now she got nerfed into the point where her killing power is limited to BF and U-smash. I think the MU might be better than pre-patch. Fireball nerf doesn't mean much, Sheik's B-air nerf means a lot. But maybe we'll see how the MU drags on to the future... Because Luigi doesn't bodies Sheiks as much as he bodies Diddys pre-patch (I have even saw Luigis getting bodied by the ninja. I rarely see Diddys bodying a Luigi).

 

[veritron]

Is the villager matchup really that bad?
I found that fireballs spam is very effective since they destroy rockets, and pocket them is nearly useless for villager
The only thing to worry about are the gimps

The thing in Villager's kit that's super obnoxious is the f-air (balloons). If the villager player is smart about using them, it's annoying to get in (I find the balloons difficult to see). Rockets are just a tool to help you get hit by his/her f-air.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I think Mega Man is Luigi's worst matchup, and arguably the only one that he clearly loses. Everything else that people cite as negative is either even or just a slight disadvantage.

I haven't even noticed the fireball nerf. I would have never noticed it, if it hadn't been pointed out to me. I mean, the hitstun is still the same, right? And it still stops all of the same attacks it used to? I never depended on it to rack up damage anyways. Why would I, when Luigi has so many other options? Plus, it only deals one percent less, and only at a distance. On the on the hand, Sheik's bair was a critical kill move, something which has always been in rather short supply for her. She lacks easy kill set-ups, while Luigi has guaranteed kills from d-throws. The match-up is still slightly in Sheik's favor, because, c'mon, it's Sheik, but it's much more doable now.

It's well established that Captain Falcon is probably the most commonly played character in Smash4, and that therefore it's important to be up on your C.Falcon matchup knowledge. After some experimentation this is what I believe is Luigi's best 0% combo on C.Falcon:

Fireball-Grab (no pummel)-Dthrow-Fair-Fast Fall Nair-Grab (1 pummel)-Dthrow-Fair-Fair

Deals a little over 60% and is essentially a true combo. I'd appreciate any feedback. This is a great string to practice in the Training.

This is my favorite Luigi combo, but why no pummel off of the first grab? I've been trying to get into the habit of going for for one the first grab and two the second. Will a good player be able to mash out of it too quickly? Or is it just that the extra damage isn't worth giving them extra reaction time?

My personal worst are Mega Man and Dedede. In general, I would say Mega Man is his worst MU and custom Rosa

I've always found Luigi to be a hard counter to D3. Luigi has all of the tools to shut down gordos, and D3's large hitbox makes him combo food and an easy target for up-b. Do you just know a really good D3 main?

 

[neohopeSTF]

How do people feel about the Sonic match-up? Sonic is the character I have the hardest time with, I can't do much with Luigi against him.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

How do people feel about the Sonic match-up? Sonic is the character I have the hardest time with, I can't do much with Luigi against him.

Fireballs stop his spin dash but him being so fast can just be trouble due to luigis slow movement in the air and low traction. I think its an even matchup but I can see how it can be annoying.

 

[Carotoking]

Spam the fireballs to stop his rush, this basically annihilates half of his offensive game
be aware if he try to hit you off stage with the spring due to luigi's poor recovery
If he is dumb enough to do dair on you -> shield and shoryuken
Also, play in a platformed stage

I think luigi-sonic is a good matchup for luigi

 

[TriTails]

Fireball spam + Sonic = Boot to Luigi's face.

He can literally dash and when you release a Fireball, he is already in front of you, take the 6%, and grab or F-tilt you during the end lag because he is basically right in front of your face.

Instead, use Fireballs ONLY when he uses his Spin Dash. He is one of the few characters that can actually punish Fireball's end lag if used recklessly. Luigi better off doing the bait-and-punish game rather than charging aggresively. He completely outstrips us in speed department and any mistakes Luigi make will not go unpunished. And also, under any circumstances, DO NOT PUNISH HIS F-SMASH! (Unless you are literally running towards him when he whiffs) It has really low end lag (Similiar to ours), and is SAFE. ON. SHIELD. DO NAWT PUSH YOUR LUCK ON THIS ONE.

IMO 60:40 Luigi. Maybe 55:45.

Same goes with ZSS. Spamming Fireballs will get you a Flip Jump to your head. Play defensively on this one.

 

[Trifroze]

COME AHWN

Falcon boards are discussing Luigi, please drop in and give your thoughts on the matchup. I see you've gone over the matchup here already.

http://smashboards.com/threads/come-ahwn-captain-falcon-mu-thread-lap-6-luigi.399692/

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Any tips on pikachu or robin? I played this one pikachu who basically almost timed me out with spamming B and quick attack.

 

[Saturn_]

Any tips on pikachu or robin? I played this one pikachu who basically almost timed me out with spamming B and quick attack.

Foxtrot-shield beats braindead projectile spamming and fireballs clink with Pika's neutral B. Short hop nair interrupts quick attack, and staying in the air generally makes spamming quick attack pointless.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Foxtrot-shield beats braindead projectile spamming and fireballs clink with Pika's neutral B. Short hop nair interrupts quick attack, and staying in the air generally makes spamming quick attack pointless.

Thanks man I'll give it a try

 

[MonkeyArms]

Just out of curiosity, what would you guys say are Luigi's worst match ups?

Easily villager. He can space luigi, he can edge guard luigi basically every time, he has a combo breaker. 'nough said.

 

[Banjo8152]

Can someone help me with the Rosa matchup?

 

[MonkeyArms]

Can someone help me with the Rosa matchup?

Rule #1: If you can get a down b, go for it.
Rule #2: Don't get aggresive on Rosalina when Luma isn't onstage. Wait to see Rosalina's reaction from you getting close to her a few times.
Rule #3: Down throw down b at about 85
Rule #4: Down throw up b at about 68
Rule #5: Do not try to edge guard Rosalina unless you're sure you'll get the hit
Rule #6: Shot hop fire balls
Rule #7: Always attack Luma
Rule #8: Be aware that Luma can combo break you
Rule #9: Do not go for grabs unless you're confident you're going to land them
Rule #10: Be patient at the ledge, do not instantly get up, think about your options.

Failure to apply these rules may result in serious consequences.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I made a list... Not a tier list but my personal MU list for Luigi. These are entirely based off of my experiences(mostly in FG). I don't place highly in tournaments but I feel like I have a good handle on Luigi's strengths and weaknesses so this could possibly be a base for a MU tier list. Higher being harder MUs. I've played a bunch of offline but only a handful of different characters offline. I have very little exposure to Miis and I never fought a Swordfighter before. This is also a vanilla list so customs are not involved.

Here it is:

 

[MonkeyArms]

I made a list... Not a tier list but my personal MU list for Luigi. These are entirely based off of my experiences(mostly in FG). I don't place highly in tournaments but I feel like I have a good handle on Luigi's strengths and weaknesses so this could possibly be a base for a MU tier list. Higher being harder MUs. I've played a bunch of offline but only a handful of different characters offline. I have very little exposure to Miis and I never fought a Swordfighter before. This is also a vanilla list so customs are not involved.

Here it is:
View attachment 53985

How do you manage to make villager so low?
Also, most of the matchups on here seem to be ranked by how different they are from a normal match up that doesn't make it better for the opponent.
Personally: I see the dumbest placement being shulk. Shulk has several great tools against luigi, and also, don't make a list based off for glory, it just doesn't work like that.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

How do you manage to make villager so low?
Also, most of the matchups on here seem to be ranked by how different they are from a normal match up that doesn't make it better for the opponent.
Personally: I see the dumbest placement being shulk. Shulk has several great tools against luigi, and also, don't make a list based off for glory, it just doesn't work like that.

Again this is a personal list for me. Villager is not that tough at all especially without customs. Fireball at mid-range shuts Villager down because it stops all projectile shenanigans while keeping safe from Fair/Bair. Villager has to approach Luigi in this MU and the best approach is Dair or Nair which are unsafe.

Actually I really don't think Shulk is too tough. I admit I've had troubles but I think it's just a matter of the player being better than me. Powershielding Shulk's aerials should always lead to damage with the exception of Nair. Spot dodging is also a key factor here because Shulk has a lot of pushback on shield. He has good zoning tools but overall can't keep Luigi at bay for long. And once Luigi is in then Shulk can't do much aside from a Vision read.

 

[Agent Emerald]

Hello Lanky Green Men! The Kirby Boards are discussing the Luigi matchup this week and we would like to have your input on this matchup!

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...ion-week-3-sheik-luigi-5-26-6-1.400052/page-3