Data Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread

[Deleted member]

I go for Sheik and Mega Man.
Sheik is by far the best character in the game while Mega Man is our hardest MU.

 

[MonkeyArms]

I nominate Zelda.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

What do you guys think about Luigi post-patch? How does he do against the DLC characters, and how have his match-ups changed? I've been compiling a list of his match-ups that I posted earlier. I switched up some characters based on criticisms and patch changes, but I'm not completely sure where to put the new DLC characters. (Mostly Ryu. I think I've got Lucas and Roy close to where they belong.)

+3 (heavy advantage) :
+2 (advantage) :
+1 (light advantage) :
0 (even) :
-1 (light disadvantage) :
-2 (disadvantage) :
-3 (heavy disadvantage) :

IDK:


Not using + or - 4.

I put Samus as a -1 match-up mostly because of this:

Spoiler

I usually don't use Samus' zair to its full potential, so I never realized how effectively she could wall out Luigi.

So, any suggestions?

 

[Luco]

I appreciate the thought guys, and I do think Lucas may do better than Ness against Luigi (Ness mains think we might lose the MU or go even with you) but realistically Lucas' metagame is still a baby (our MU discussion thread was literally opened by the mods earlier today) and there are few competitive Lucas mains that have found their feet and post frequently on the boards, so you won't get much of a response from us for a while. I'd give it a few weeks and then hopefully Lucas mains will have had time to experience the MU more.

But on a relevant note, what about discussing Ness instead while you wait? <3

 

[TriTails]

Sheik: Whooping 3. Adding her in.
Lucas: 1
Falcon: 1
Mega Man: 1
Zelda: 1

One more character guys. Sheik aaaaannnnnndddd....???????

BTW. @SirJuicius , do you want to nominate Wario? And @ Luco , is Ness your recommendation?

 

[Space Stranger]

I nominate Falcon. Not only is he my other main but I have enough knowledge on both.

 

[TriTails]

So. Sheik and Falcon?

Okie-dokie.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I nominate Ness as well.

 

[TriTails]

The MU thread is up guys. Week 1 we will discuss Sheik and Falcon. I see Ness being possible candidate for week 2 as well.

 

[Luco]

Sheik: Whooping 3. Adding her in.
Lucas: 1
Falcon: 1
Mega Man: 1
Zelda: 1

One more character guys. Sheik aaaaannnnnndddd....???????

BTW. @SirJuicius , do you want to nominate Wario? And @ Luco , is Ness your recommendation?

Oh sorry, didn't see this! When you edit a post, tags that weren't a part of the original post don't alert the user, it's an annoying phenomenon.

I mean, feel free to do us soonish/whenever, although we may call you guys over before that point depending on what peeps feel.

 

[TriTails]

Oh sorry, didn't see this! When you edit a post, tags that weren't a part of the original post don't alert the user, it's an annoying phenomenon.

Time to stop tagging people when editing then .

I mean, feel free to do us soonish/whenever, although we may call you guys over before that point depending on what peeps feel.

Depends on the nominations, but when we do, I'll be sure to call y'all over!

 

[MonkeyArms]

Man, it kind of sucks we got falcon. I swear we talked about this match up 3 times already.

 

[TriTails]

Man, it kind of sucks we got falcon. I swear we talked about this match up 3 times already.

Yeah. But we mostly discuss them by only our point of view. We also need theirs too, since unless one of us seconds Luigi and mains Falcon, we don't know their character as well as they do.

Falcon is also very popular in both online AND tourneys. So it's kinda not a waste if we discuss him, since he is considered a big janky character.

 

[Noa.]

The Ness boards are discussing Luigi. Please join in!

http://smashboards.com/threads/ness-matchup-discussion-luigi.406784/#post-19542193

 

[Luco]

Yeap we got to you first in the end, yalla on over when you have the time! <3

 

[Moydow]

Greetings from the boards! We're just starting discussion on the Luigi match-up over at the Robin match-up thread! Any input from you guys would be appreciated!
And no, "Luigi wins by doing nothing" isn't a valid response.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Who are we going to talk about next?

 

[Luco]

Who are we going to talk about next?

I mean, two separate character boards have arrived on your doorstep, you should go over and give input! :D

 

[TriTails]

Who are we going to talk about next?

Looks like we have:
Lucas: 1
Ness: 1
Mega Man: 1
Zelda: 1

 

[Yonder]

What do you guys think about Luigi post-patch? How does he do against the DLC characters, and how have his match-ups changed? I've been compiling a list of his match-ups that I posted earlier. I switched up some characters based on criticisms and patch changes, but I'm not completely sure where to put the new DLC characters. (Mostly Ryu. I think I've got Lucas and Roy close to where they belong.)

+3 (heavy advantage) :
+2 (advantage) :
+1 (light advantage) :
0 (even) :
-1 (light disadvantage) :
-2 (disadvantage) :
-3 (heavy disadvantage) :

IDK:


Not using + or - 4.

I put Samus as a -1 match-up mostly because of this:

Spoiler

I usually don't use Samus' zair to its full potential, so I never realized how effectively she could wall out Luigi.

So, any suggestions?

Imo, my opinion on match-ups, using the same format.

+3 (heavy advantage) : N/A
+2 (advantage) :
+1 (light advantage) :
0 (even) :
-1 (light disadvantage) :
-2 (disadvantage) :
-3 (heavy disadvantage) :

IDK: [Never versed one]

So yeah, some changes, ya'll might be wondering "Mega Man not his worst?!" Yeah...bad, but Sheik is worst based on countless matches against one of the best Sheiks, if not the best in BC. It's really, really bad. I'm one of the better Luigis in BC and I just don't win it unless I get a lucky smash kill. Should probably go into depth more in the matchup thread for Sheik...

Fox, Kirby, and Diddy lose hard to Luigi, based on experience. Again, one of the best Fox players in BC who I play a lot just cannot win vs my Luigi as I nair out of everything, crawl under lasers, and combo him hard along with fireballs gimping Fox' illusion and firefox being dair spike gimp food. Diddy and Kirby can't really approach Luigi with a good fireball to fair lame out strategy, from tourney experience [And Luigi with a nanner = best character in game]

Rob is underestimated in difficulty...but he IS beatable with certain practice and knowledge on applicable tools, just like all the other disadvantages! Each of these have their own weakness Luigi can exploit [TL: Easier to d throw to tornado than most, ROB: Fireballs can clank gyro + combo food if you manage to get in, Villager: Fireballs clank gyroid...idk, Mega Man: Easier to combo than most, fireballs clank all but charge shot and lemons]

Lucas is a new pain; lost to one in a tourney cause Luigi CANNOT get past PK fire. Splash damage knocks Luigi back if you use fireballs, unless Ness. And Zair. Ugh...could be -2 in the future.

Ryu is a nice +1 for Luigi, both have no range but Luigi has the better projectile and frame data, it's close though. I don't struggle with it though, anyways.

I don't see Samus as -1, people are overblowing the Larry vs Esam match. It's just not a well known matchup. Charge shot is the bane of Luigi's existance, fair and zair are annoying too, but missiles don't work and Samus can be combo and easily gimped. Time will tell more.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Lucas is a new pain; lost to one in a tourney cause Luigi CANNOT get past PK fire. Splash damage knocks Luigi back if you use fireballs, unless Ness. And Zair. Ugh...could be -2 in the future.

I think Lucas's new zair will be a huge problem for Luigi as well. Most Lucas mains don't seem to be making a lot of use of it, because it didn't do damage in Brawl, but it's really good now.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi CANNOT get past PK fire. Splash damage knocks Luigi back if you use fireballs, unless Ness. And Zair. Ugh...could be -2 in the future.

It's your list. But why aren't you shorthopping over PK Fire? Lucas got some end lag in there and if you are lucky you can even go past it after it disappeared when running. Worst case it's back to neutral, but I'm not seeing any harm done if he can't hit you with the PK Fire since you aren't in frame disadvantage or anything.

Not commenting on Z-air because I haven't met many Lucas using it. But PK Fire feels easy to dodge... or my opponent is just ***.

 

[Yonder]

It's your list. But why aren't you shorthopping over PK Fire? Lucas got some end lag in there and if you are lucky you can even go past it after it disappeared when running. Worst case it's back to neutral, but I'm not seeing any harm done if he can't hit you with the PK Fire since you aren't in frame disadvantage or anything.

Not commenting on Z-air because I haven't met many Lucas using it. But PK Fire feels easy to dodge... or my opponent is just ***.

The Lucas I versed knew exactly what ddistance to jump and execute PK fire everytime to catch my short hoops or any hops to be exact. He'd juuuust hit the ground as he finished. Really quite something, actually. It's so much more deadlier than Ness'.

Fortunately for this matchup though...Lucas isn' super fast or anything mobility wise. Faster than Luigi in the air, but I think [Not sure] slightly slower dash wise. So that's a plus.

 

[TriTails]

Then mindgame is the game. Empty shorthop to fast-fall helps. People shouldn't be walling you out with a single (laggy) move alone. I also disagree on it being deadlier than Ness'. Ness' PK Fire can set up for grabs at close range OR forces you to burn your double jump at farther range. Given his dash attack, it's deadly.

Lucas is tied with Luigi at dashing speed. And he is definitely faster in the air.

Oh man. I'm feeling like wanting to be bodied now. FG players ain't cuttin' it. I'd ask people to verse me right now, but my internet has this 'stops working at random time' syndrome. Anyone know why is this happening?

 

[MonkeyArms]

I nominate that nerfed Diddy Kong.
I about lost a set to one because I didn't really know what I was doing.

Also, I'm down for discussing Ness, he's a pretty popular character.

 

[TriTails]

Ness is in.

One more character guys.

EDIT: STiCKY nominated Mega Man. So I guess week 2, we will disucss the Onnet Boy and Super Fighting Robot.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Would you guys consider bouncing fireball against Villager with the trip sapling, giant gyro, and explosive baloons? I think it would be a good way at getting over those walls.

 

[BlueBirdE]

Im curious about falco- luigi.I play both characters and havent rly played this mu since the update. Prepatch, falco did not rly have many combos on luigi besides from a u throw uair early percent and from dtilts. Falcos buttons could not compete with luigis so resorting to defensive play was falcos game plan till he gets a hit. Catching falco was difficult on some stages such as town and city where platforms allowed falco to full hop side b across putting luigi on the chase. off stage falcos fair and dair was always a threat to luigis recovery since fair can semi spike the cyclone for one. Post patch falcos changes allow more consistent true combos with the faster aerials. The new nair allows more follows ups and the all around faster fair improves his edgeguarding game. I still think this is in luigis favor, but I can see this mu drag on if falco plays it optimally.

 

[DJ Delta]

Would you guys consider bouncing fireball against Villager with the trip sapling, giant gyro, and explosive baloons? I think it would be a good way at getting over those walls.

Yes, not only can you bounce it over sapling, but it can pop balloons if he tires to plank. My go to customs vs custom villager are quick missle and bouncing fireball.

I know it's doubles, but watch how I use it to make this comeback in a 2v1. Mainly against custom villager.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH3tHGEjOOk&index=15&list=PLAIIMiVssmgqNimhBdTlqGTqekGIu-oda

 

[MonkeyArms]

Yes, not only can you bounce it over sapling, but it can pop balloons if he tires to plank. My go to customs vs custom villager are quick missle and bouncing fireball.

I know it's doubles, but watch how I use it to make this comeback in a 2v1. Mainly against custom villager.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH3tHGEjOOk&index=15&list=PLAIIMiVssmgqNimhBdTlqGTqekGIu-oda

I can see how the quick missile leaves you a lot less susceptible to edge guards against him. I tend to use the normal one so I'm not quite used to it. I honestly didn't see bouncing fireball be to much of a use, but it was probably the stage. The thing is the normal one is so good its hard to find situations where the other 2 are better.

 

[DJ Delta]

Quick missle gives you the ability to recover high so you don't have to worry sling shot or bowling ball. I find bouncing best against campy characters or ones that use a lot of projectiles. Though default is still the best.

 

[TriTails]

Lucas: 1
Zelda: 1
Diddy: 1

Nomination time guys.

 

[Yonder]

Roy and ROB

 

[BlueBirdE]

Roy,Peach,Rob

 

[TriTails]

Roy and ROB it is then.

 

[Eureka]

So, Roy match up. First things first, Roy f**** people up. Luigi, also f**** people up. Both of these characters are extremely dangerous, and this match up can definitely be an explosive one. Here are my thoughts on the match up.

Actual fist things first, the neutral. The biggest factor for Luigi here by far are his fireballs. Fireballs win neutral for Luigi, forcing Roy to approach and making it unable for him to wall out Luigi with his sword. While they don't have the best range, they can be fired in rapid succession, and can make it rather difficult for Roy to get in safely. Roy, on the other hand, wants to get in, and can attempt to jump over fireballs. Powershielding the fireballs is an option too, but that creates a mixup with luigi's grab, and we don't ever want to get grabbed by Luigi. Since the fireballs move horizontally, Roy can get over them and land with nair, fair, or Flare Blade if necessary. Or he could simply tomahawk, which is very effective with Roy. Luigi doesn't have much to contest any of these options, except intercepting Roy's jump with a jumping fireball. In summery, Luigi wants to get damage on Roy by mixing up fireballs of different altitudes and getting grabs, and Roy wants to get through the fireballs by getting over them or powershielding them so he can hit Luigi with his sword while not getting grabbed.

What Luigi can not do, however, is wall Roy out. Fireballs don't have the range and Roy has too much mobility for that to happen. The point of them is to tack on damage and open up opportunities for grabs. Eventually, the fight will move into close quarters. This is where things get interesting, because while Roy wants to get in on Luigi to not deal with fireballs, he needs to be very careful getting close with Luigi. The reason being that Roy can't box with Luigi's frame 2 jab, and doesn't want to get grabbed and eat a ton of damage. What Roy can do though is engage Luigi at a range too close for fireballs to be used safely, but outside of the range of most of Luigi's moves, which he can do with jab, f-tilt, d-tilt, and short hoped nairs and fairs (don't forget we can double jump after short hopped fair before hitting the ground). At this stage, what Luigi wants is to either deal with Roy's disjointed hit boxes and get as close as possible to more effectively use his moves, or create space so he can go back to spamming fireballs. Or, you know, just go for a grab, since that's generally always Luigi's best option if he can get it. Roy wants to engage Luigi on his own terms and push every advantage he can, as Luigi has few answers to proper spacing up close.

Speaking of advantages, Roy has some pretty powerful positional ones in this match up. Luigi is at a major disadvantage whenever he's above Roy. His only options are nair, which loses to Roy's up air, down-b, which has a lot of lag if predicted and can also staight up lose to up air, or air dodge, which can be lethal for Luigi if read. Counter doesn't make the attacking options any better. Luigi being foaty also means he dies off the top quicker, so Luigi wants to stay firmly on the ground as much as possible. Luigi has a decisive advantage in the combo game though. While Roy still has several potent combos, Luigi's floatiness and frame 3 nair can throw a wrench in quite a few of them. Luigi has plenty of options on Roy though, and can exploit his fast falling speed for high damage combos, especially off of down throw.

Both Roy and Luigi have plenty of KO options, but Roy has the advantage there. Not only do his moves kill earlier, but he can take advantage of Luigi dying earlier off the top with u-tilt, u-smash, and Blazer. Blazer out of shield is especially scary to Luigi, as it starts KOing around 110%-120% range. And then there's forward smash, but that needs no introduction. Just please don't do stupid things that leave yourself open, for your own sake. Luigi's kill options mostly all work the same, but Roy's high fall speed makes it easier for him to fall out of Luigi Cyclone, so keep that in mind.

Finally, there's edgeguarding, and both characters can get gimped pretty hard. Normally Roy would be fine because Blazer completely beats Luigi's fair and dair and can be angled. However that thing you guys do sometimes, where you get every hit of down-b but the last one, that's freaking annoying. Not quite sure how that interacts with Blazer though, and you'll need to guess which way Roy will go to be in the right spot. Roy can go out and challenge Green Missle without fear with either Flare Blade, fair, or even Counter. Also, if Luigi flys above the ledge he's going to get f-smashed, which spells death at 60% or higher. Luigi can also mix up his recovery though, but he'll need to be smart about it.

Sorry if this was too much, but I think there's a lot to be said about this match up. Thing is, I can't say Roy has an advantage, because Luigi is at the advantage in more situations and combos Roy hard. But at the same time, I can't say Luigi has an advantage because Roy can create situations where Luigi is borderline helpless and Luigi can get killed early. Overall, I'd say the matchup's even, but I'd like to know what you guys think.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Dont know if this is relevant but this was a match I had against a Luigi

 

[TriTails]

Dont know if this is relevant but this was a match I had against a Luigi

He could've won had he didn't pushed his cyclones at your last stock. He had more than one chance to stop mashing his nado and potentially KO you with it.

But great match, overall. Perhaps we can battle too? I think I may be at that Luigi skill level. Plus, I'd like to grind the MU. Not now though, I'm ill at the time.

BTW guys, please nominate for the next week discussion. I'm sick as of now and hadn't got many chances to open up my laptop. So the thread remained un-updated :/.

Lucas: 1
Zelda: 1
Diddy: 1
Peach: 1

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

He could've won had he didn't pushed his cyclones at your last stock. He had more than one chance to stop mashing his nado and potentially KO you with it.

But great match, overall. Perhaps we can battle too? I think I may be at that Luigi skill level. Plus, I'd like to grind the MU. Not now though, I'm ill at the time.

BTW guys, please nominate for the next week discussion. I'm sick as of now and hadn't got many chances to open up my laptop. So the thread remained un-updated :/.

Lucas: 1
Zelda: 1
Diddy: 1
Peach: 1

Im also sick, but Ill let you know when I cam

 

[TriTails]

Nominations? Anyone?