I've actually tricked several ROBs into falling into this. It has a bit to do with the ROB trying to hover more than just a SH above ground (more like a FH's length) and continually nAir to try and trick you to jumping into it with it's lasting hit box. It's not really a good strategy but when you see a ROB doing it...it's just one of your options, your usmash is normally within reach.
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Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy
- Thread starter Levitas
- Start date
Levitas
the moon
I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying that it doesn't have a place in a matchup thread.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
Rob tends to spotdodge --> dsmash alot right?
that's a good to time pull out our Dsmash to punish the spotdodge. of course this would take some anticipation on the players part. i'm not exactly sure how to play this match either. you could stay on the defensive and force an approach or don't give him time to set up his traps by playing aggresively and staying inside him. setting up juggling traps on rob is easy due to our uair's speed and low landing lag.
i mean it's really like fighting a better version of ourselves combined with marth lol.
i was probably just talking out of my a** when i said it was even lol. i'm sure that it's 55-45 ROB's way
oh and the blind spot is in the bottom front corner of ROB as you stated. his bair can't exactly reach you there and his dair is too slow to start. fair won't hit you and nair takes too long to start as well.
IIRC he also has one while he's on the ground. i think it's at a 40 something degree angle, where an upward angled fsmash/ftilt won't hit and his utilt/usmash won't either.
SOMEBODY CALL FOR OS lol
that's a good to time pull out our Dsmash to punish the spotdodge. of course this would take some anticipation on the players part. i'm not exactly sure how to play this match either. you could stay on the defensive and force an approach or don't give him time to set up his traps by playing aggresively and staying inside him. setting up juggling traps on rob is easy due to our uair's speed and low landing lag.
i mean it's really like fighting a better version of ourselves combined with marth lol.
i was probably just talking out of my a** when i said it was even lol. i'm sure that it's 55-45 ROB's way
oh and the blind spot is in the bottom front corner of ROB as you stated. his bair can't exactly reach you there and his dair is too slow to start. fair won't hit you and nair takes too long to start as well.
IIRC he also has one while he's on the ground. i think it's at a 40 something degree angle, where an upward angled fsmash/ftilt won't hit and his utilt/usmash won't either.
SOMEBODY CALL FOR OS lol
Well, no, it's not even. It's just one of Lucas' best top tier match ups.
Also, dsmash is still too slow. You really just need to rely on jab to beat ROBs dsmash. 9 times out of 10 if you try to dsmash ROBs spot dodge you will still lose. That's how fast his dsmash is. Just jab it.
Also, dsmash is still too slow. You really just need to rely on jab to beat ROBs dsmash. 9 times out of 10 if you try to dsmash ROBs spot dodge you will still lose. That's how fast his dsmash is. Just jab it.
DemonicTrilogy
Smash Lord
I hate this match up because ROB has so many options to dodge your already bad approacheds (spotdodging being a main one). He is even harder to guard and can be very annoying if he fly's above you while guarding and spikes you. Try to predict his lasers. Usually when you guys pause in the battle, ROB will tend to laser so be alert for this good time to PSI magnet it. Never be under ROB when recoverying cause PK thunder takes long enough for him to set up a spike. Try to get him in the air so that you can attack him from under (his majob blind spot). This will allow Up airs and well timed Up smashes can take care of him.
Levitas
the moon
zap jump escapes edgeguards quite well.
heytallman
CTALL
Sweet! I summoned OS! Thank you for coming here btw.
takeurlife2
Smash Ace
marth ***** you all
tallman is bald.
tallman is bald.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Probably a bad idea to doubt you, but I want all the details before I move on.
I mean, I've never seen anything major that ROB has that can shut down Lucas to the point of owning.
PhoenixAlpha
Smash Journeyman
I did some friendlies w/ a ROB when I went to OH SNAP. I know it's not much, but I gathered this much, at least.
ROB has a really strong projectile game. You can absorb the laser and not the gyro (duh). Once you grab a gyro from him, you can spam PK fires. His only move to stop it (side B) is very slow, and I'm pretty sure good ROBs don't even bother with that move. Someone feel free to correct me on this. I haven't played ROB a lot.
At this point, he only has one more projectile move: the laser. Should be slow enough to see coming, and magnet for om nom noms.
This should turn the fight to tack on damage into an even one.
Hope this helps.
Levitas
the moon
OS is gonna say something like "if ROB gives you enough time to grab the gyro, he's doing it wrong"
Glide toss at one spacing to a grab is pretty good.
Glide toss at one spacing to a grab is pretty good.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
Yeah, but isn't it easier for Lucas' to handle the gyro than other characters? o.o
Problem is there isn't a Lucas out there who is on the same level of play as OS, so =_=
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Why ROB owns Lucas:
Lucas takes a long time to do ****. He just does. When he decides to do a move, it has to connect or he has to be far enough away not to be punished. Otherwise, he gets hit halfway through.
Lucas doesn't have any projectiles in this match worth mentioning; using PK fire is a gamble (although it does have its uses) and PK Thunder is a good way to get gyro'd for 20%. Lucas' recovery, as per normal, is gimped to hell and back without the zap jump... and even with the zap jump he can have some serious issues.
Lucas is just lackign slightly in many areas, and this means the match's flow is inevitably in ROB's favor. ROB doesn't have a problem killing lucas, nor does he have a problem hurting Lucas as all he has to do is powershield, shield, or dodge one attack and suddenly he's up in Lucas' grill and ROB has a myriad of options up close. This isn't unwinnable for Lucas, and I've played soem good Lucas' that really made me think, but in the end it all comes down to Lucas landing an f-smash or u-smash and killing ROB at low %. That is the only thing Lucas can do to win this. Other than that, it is jsut chipping away at each other... and ROB is better at that.
In summary:
Lucas beats ROB by hitting him with moves until he's at a decent kill %, then using that f-smash to knock him out and not wasting time. The longer ROB is alive, the more damage Lucas takes. Lucas can kill ROB earlier than ROB can kill Lucas if Lucas can recover well.
Lucas takes a long time to do ****. He just does. When he decides to do a move, it has to connect or he has to be far enough away not to be punished. Otherwise, he gets hit halfway through.
Lucas doesn't have any projectiles in this match worth mentioning; using PK fire is a gamble (although it does have its uses) and PK Thunder is a good way to get gyro'd for 20%. Lucas' recovery, as per normal, is gimped to hell and back without the zap jump... and even with the zap jump he can have some serious issues.
Lucas is just lackign slightly in many areas, and this means the match's flow is inevitably in ROB's favor. ROB doesn't have a problem killing lucas, nor does he have a problem hurting Lucas as all he has to do is powershield, shield, or dodge one attack and suddenly he's up in Lucas' grill and ROB has a myriad of options up close. This isn't unwinnable for Lucas, and I've played soem good Lucas' that really made me think, but in the end it all comes down to Lucas landing an f-smash or u-smash and killing ROB at low %. That is the only thing Lucas can do to win this. Other than that, it is jsut chipping away at each other... and ROB is better at that.
In summary:
Lucas beats ROB by hitting him with moves until he's at a decent kill %, then using that f-smash to knock him out and not wasting time. The longer ROB is alive, the more damage Lucas takes. Lucas can kill ROB earlier than ROB can kill Lucas if Lucas can recover well.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
lucas has some pretty fast moves, jab and ftilt come to mind. Talking about killing moves, fsmash is pretty fast for a smash, and dsmash punish those spotdodgers to dsmash ROBs, and ROB moves slowly in the air, an easy target to PKT, PKFr and even bair/dair spike
a wavezap magnet pull is perfect to recover, absorbing lasers in the way
any good lucas uses PKT1 while both players are in the ground
i agree that ROB has the adv, but i just wanted to correct some things you said
a wavezap magnet pull is perfect to recover, absorbing lasers in the way
any good lucas uses PKT1 while both players are in the ground
i agree that ROB has the adv, but i just wanted to correct some things you said
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Good luck winning with jab and f-tilt
Lucas' gameis limited because he has to play so careful. His f-smash is his best move in this matchup and you can't use it often.
His dsmash also dosen't punish spotdodges. Spot dodge to shield powershields it, allowing ROB to grab.
stupid auto PS.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
sooo... from your summary the highest i'm coming up with is 40-60 ROB's favor. they both do some of the same things. ROB is just better as you said. difference is.. one can gimp and one can kill early. so the only real advantage ROB has is his ability to punish Lucas and space himself better than Lucas. I'm also pretty sure the timing you have to have for the spotdodge auto PS is pretty strict.
Levitas
the moon
6:4 rob's favor.
Jab: 2 frames
Dtilt: 3
Utilt: 4
Ftilt: 6
Nair: 4
Fair: 4
Uair: 5
Dair: 3
Same list for ROB (on a slightly inaccurate thread because you guys don't have a frame data thread):
Jab: 3
Utilt: 4
Dtilt: 3
Ftilt: 7
Dash: 7
Dsmash: 4
Fair: 7
Uair: 7
So speed is a real advantage for Rob here, who has a Dsmash and Dash attack significantly faster (to the point of advantage, anyway), and a significantly slower Nair and Dair. I'm not arguing better or worse, just faster/slower because that's the only thing you mentioned.
The top does wreck lucas's PKT recovery. Fact. The top has some good glide-toss applications. Fact. The top will not win it for rob by itself. Fact.
List of lucas's moves that take under 10 frames to come out:
Jab: 2 frames
Dtilt: 3
Utilt: 4
Ftilt: 6
Nair: 4
Fair: 4
Uair: 5
Dair: 3
Same list for ROB (on a slightly inaccurate thread because you guys don't have a frame data thread):
Jab: 3
Utilt: 4
Dtilt: 3
Ftilt: 7
Dash: 7
Dsmash: 4
Fair: 7
Uair: 7
So speed is a real advantage for Rob here, who has a Dsmash and Dash attack significantly faster (to the point of advantage, anyway), and a significantly slower Nair and Dair. I'm not arguing better or worse, just faster/slower because that's the only thing you mentioned.
PK fire is significantly faster to come out than the laser, which is easy to magnet on reaction. The only projectile ROB has against lucas is the top which, while not easy to neutralize, can be fsmashed on the ground, caught in the air, and otherwise shielded.
The top does wreck lucas's PKT recovery. Fact. The top has some good glide-toss applications. Fact. The top will not win it for rob by itself. Fact.
It's really nice when people go into really vague arguments like this because there's no way to argue against them. Specifics are nice. Saying stuff like how ROB can do a decent job of brickwalling lucas with jab, Dtilt, Ftilt, and Fair is a lot more concrete. I'll mention that nair stuff hurts rob decently here, and Dair is a decent mixup if you can space it w/o getting faired.
True for ANY matchup that doesn't revolve around gimping in both directions.
I'd like frame data on your spot-dodge to verify that this is true. first hit on Dsmash is on frame 20, which makes it ideal for punishing spotdodges in most cases.Good luck winning with jab and f-tilt
Lucas' gameis limited because he has to play so careful. His f-smash is his best move in this matchup and you can't use it often.
His dsmash also dosen't punish spotdodges. Spot dodge to shield powershields it, allowing ROB to grab.
stupid auto PS.
I'd call it 55-45 ROB's favor. Maybe even 50-50. I'm hoping to play Overswarm tomorrow night. I haven't played him in a while but last time I beat him in friendlies. ROB is annoying but he doesn't give me too much trouble compared to some other characters.
Noraa
Smash Lord
Yeah sorry OS, but rob really isnt a difficult match up for Lucas.
I think for this match up it comes down to who plays better.
Lazer game is no use since its slow and easy to absorb.
Top is easy to get past, PS or just spotdoge...or simply stick the **** back lol.
The worst thing in this match up for lucas is not being able to do damage on the inside with robs dsmash being so quick.
If rob is in the air recovering, we have to many options. Robs recovery is mad slow and just a moving target...nothin amazing.
55-45 robs favor.
i dont know how the hell you got 60-40, thats just ego on your end lol
Gl tyr =]
I think for this match up it comes down to who plays better.
Lazer game is no use since its slow and easy to absorb.
Top is easy to get past, PS or just spotdoge...or simply stick the **** back lol.
The worst thing in this match up for lucas is not being able to do damage on the inside with robs dsmash being so quick.
If rob is in the air recovering, we have to many options. Robs recovery is mad slow and just a moving target...nothin amazing.
55-45 robs favor.
i dont know how the hell you got 60-40, thats just ego on your end lol
Gl tyr =]
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
lol @ calling ROBs recovery nothing amazing. if his recovery was really that slow he would be getting gimped almost all the time, yet everyone finds ROB to be one of the hardest chars to gimp. gimping him with lucas is no different. if we try to PKT him while he's off stage a laser shot to us would end that. even a well placed gyro to cancel out the head/ hit us will kill those dreams. jumping off stage with him is just plain stupid. he has way more range than us, so hitting us won't be a problem. plus he can airdodge. lmao i can't believe you called him a moving target.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
When I said "Lucas takes a long time to do stuff", I wasn't referring to start-up time. Lucas has moves that come out quickly, but they stay out for a pretty long amount of time... which is unfortunate since ROB is so good at poking that most characters have to rush in and do an attack to compensate. If Lucas misses, he gets owned. :\
Levitas
the moon
If you guys had FULL frame data for rob, I could call you out on that one, too OS.
Lucas has good IASA on most ground moves, and you're obviously not talking about poking through aerials like that. Lucas just isn't a laggy character.
Lucas has good IASA on most ground moves, and you're obviously not talking about poking through aerials like that. Lucas just isn't a laggy character.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
it's true the only moves with really punishable lag are his smashes. aerials autocancel or just aren't laggy. ground moves with the exception of the smashes are pretty quick. h*** even PK freeze doesn't have much lag. PKT does when you don't hit yourself with it. anddd.... that's about it.
DemonicTrilogy
Smash Lord
I think that it is even between the two. Rob's spotdodge camp can be punnished with nair and downsmash while those by themselves can be punished by ROB's tilts. If you can get him in the air so that you can up-air him, the match goes toward your favor since ROB has a pretty big blindspot below and behind him.
Pk fire helps space out you guys so that he doesn't get too close and combo you. When off the edge, it's better to be above him in this case since he can spike you out of your PK thunder. Edge guarding him should be easy since he can't air dodge out of his Robo burner so use those opprotunities while they last. PK freeze can be good for this match up since it can easily connect on the flying ROB and makes him above you and at your advantange for up air chains if it connects.
Pk fire helps space out you guys so that he doesn't get too close and combo you. When off the edge, it's better to be above him in this case since he can spike you out of your PK thunder. Edge guarding him should be easy since he can't air dodge out of his Robo burner so use those opprotunities while they last. PK freeze can be good for this match up since it can easily connect on the flying ROB and makes him above you and at your advantange for up air chains if it connects.
Levitas
the moon
Edgeguarding is NOT easy against ROB.
You will always be at the worst angle that you can ask for with the aerial encounter because you will be in front and above rob, where his aerials are the most disjointed and the quickest. He has the laser (not a probem in this case). His up b lasts for a few tries if yu get through once.
Edgeguarding is not easy here.
You will always be at the worst angle that you can ask for with the aerial encounter because you will be in front and above rob, where his aerials are the most disjointed and the quickest. He has the laser (not a probem in this case). His up b lasts for a few tries if yu get through once.
Edgeguarding is not easy here.
DemonicTrilogy
Smash Lord
Are you sure? I thought Dair outprioritized his Up air...
Levitas
the moon
When it's telegraphed fully it MIGHT sometimes outprioritize his uair. Which means that all ROB has to do is not allow a fully telegraphed dair to go against it.
So you expect to be able to trick a ROB into ascending into your ascending Dair without already having been in range of his fair/uair. I'm a little curious how you'd do that.
So you expect to be able to trick a ROB into ascending into your ascending Dair without already having been in range of his fair/uair. I'm a little curious how you'd do that.
Levitas
the moon
*is *********
DemonicTrilogy
Smash Lord
I usually dash, jump a fullhop or shorthop depending on the height, and then do a rising dair so that the first strike hit's his front before I slow down the air speed so that all the hits connect on his head. I might not be playing against a good ROB if that's what you mean by me tricking a ROB. For me, I just do it....
Noraa
Smash Lord
Pink i didnt say that he was easy to gimp, i said hes a moving target that's slow. Which makes it easier to inflict damage.
If you cant control your pkt to hit him even if he air dodges you need to pick up a new main.
You must do really bad at this match up. Go practice.
If you cant control your pkt to hit him even if he air dodges you need to pick up a new main.
You must do really bad at this match up. Go practice.
DemonicTrilogy
Smash Lord
I don't understand why people would use PK thunder on him. The knockback usually hits him higher in the air so wouldn't that be even worse for us when he is trying to recover?
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
If you guys want, me and ChaosTheoryX will record this matchup and we can see how it goes. I'm a former ROB main and you all know ChaosTheory is a dedicated Lucas.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
what are you talking about?
i was saying PKT isn't that smart of an idea because he can just hit you with a laser, hit you with a gyro, hit the head with a gyro, or fly above it. All of those will stop the PKT. it may work on ROBs that aren't really used to our edgegurading techs, but good players that know them will counter it.
i know i suggested it earlier as it may work like once or twice.
it's funny how you pulled out only me saying gimping him as my mistake, but you said nothing about how you called his recovery nothing amazing.
PhoenixAlpha
Smash Journeyman
Please do this. We can't seem to come to an agreement on the matchup.
It ranges from 50-50, to "ROB owns Lucas". I have very limited exp in the matchup, as shown by my most recent post.
In fact, we should cite more videos when we are talking about matchups.
I know a single (or even a handful) of videos is a very short scope for
discussing a matchup, but it might help to just see any two players of said characters interacting in battle.