Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[pastaboy]

lucas's pkt ****s diddy hard when he recovers with his rocket barrel blast

 

[HiddenBowser]

I told you before, we would discuss that later.

lol, I don't really care whether you discuss it, but if you go saying a low tier toon is a harder matchup, I'm going to disagree and say something about it

 

[Blackbelt]

lol, I don't really care whether you discuss it, but if you go saying a low tier toon is a harder matchup, I'm going to disagree and say something about it

*sigh* Ok, let's try this than.


I disagree with your assertion, but I don't wanna get off topic at this point.


After all the matchups are done being discussed, we will be going through a "Cleanup" phase, which includes rediscussing matchups that

A) Are not agreed upon by the other boards

or

B) New findings may change the matchup




And don't worry, I've already got a list of matchups that need rediscussing, and Jigglypuff is on that list, so let's just leave it at that for now.

 

[pastaboy]

lol bowyer always startin da truble, its fun getting into truble

 

[HiddenBowser]

@blackbelt: lol, you tend to overreact a lot.

 

[Blackbelt]

@blackbelt: lol, you tend to overreact a lot.

I blame the public education system for that.

 

[prOAPC]

Um, why would we be using Egg Roll in the first place? Using it against Lucas is a bad idea since PK Fire can go through it.

Are you sure that you fought a good Yoshi? Yes, Yoshi Bomb is punishable when used in the air, but why would the Yoshi player do that in the first place outside of surprise attacks or grabbing the ledge? It's much harder to punish a grounded one.

both attacks are situational, but that doesn't mean that i can't an advice to a fellow Lucas that fight a Yoshi for the first time. Same happens with most characters, if my opponent is having his first time fighting a Lucas, i would spam magnet pull as an attack a lot!

Yoshi should already be recovering by double jumping and air-dodging, so using PK Freeze is pointless. Lucas should really only edge-guard with PK Thunder, which I do admit can cause some problems while recovering.

The idea of the PK Freeze is to be dodged, Yoshi will be in a bad position after it, and maybe try to punish Lucas, but PKF has little lag, so Lucas' jab will prevail (don't know how to spell it XD)

Yoshi's eggs work wonders on Lucas' recovery. You have to be careful not to get gimped by him.

those eggs can't reach Lucas after his zap jump, even better, to slow to catch Lucas after a wavezap magnet pull

Yep, PK Fire is annoying, but not so much that we still can't approach. But how can Lucas' pivot-grab, however quick it may be, stop Yoshi while he is in the air? Yoshi can Lucas go pretty even when they are close to each other, though.

move a little to the side, yoshi lands after the bair, pivot grab, you do the same with MK's tornado, don't you? why do you surprise?

No one knows how to get a grounded grab release on Yoshi (and hopefully no one will, mwahahaha), but it's impossible to stop the chain-grab. That's why it's a chain-grab. And it also leads to many follow-ups on Lucas, too. Also, what do you mean that Yoshi can't grab you while performing your f-smash? Can you link to the video?

one day, someone will find a solution to all those grab release chains and make them useless!! lol
i don't know what happened, but he couldn't grab me while charging the stick, it happens twice in the same match, my friend has the replay, but i'd take a while to upload it to youtube

No, Yoshi's n-air really is that awesome.

yep, it is

Although, Lucas' d-air and n-air can be stopped by Yoshi's up-smash...

i know it stops nair, but i'm not sure about a full hop dair in the same place

I personally think it's 6-4 Yoshi, but good luck with the match-up.

i stay with my 55-45 yoshi, and i don't need that luck anymore, my Lucas is improving everyday, getting better and better, while his Yoshi, for me, has reach his max level, and his thinking of changing his main, from yoshi to toon link

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm, i play against Oats in tournament sometimes (Marceux on the boards), all i know is taht PK fire *****, our cgs **** you, and PK thunder can actually edgeguard yoshi if you lure out our airdodge. Lucas wants to stay close and pressure with ftilt a lot, cuz we dont have an answer to it really. Dont try to edgeguard yourself, just use PK thunder or wait for him to land, you'll likely only get hurt yourself. Nairs can get pivot grabbed so dont do it recklessly.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Here is something I posted in the other matchup thread for Yoshi:

...

The three most important things he told me:

1) Wavebounce'd PK fires are hard for Yoshi to get through.

2) Spend lots of time in the air to avoid being grabbed. Yoshi's got
that release chain grab which makes Lucas a sad panda.

3) Watch those eggs! They do 10ish damage a piece and they are not hard to dodge if you are paying attention.

He also recommended bair spiking after the startup (ultra armor?)of Yoshi's second jump if he recovers low.

Watch out for the running Usmash (hyphen smashing)

PKF > side b egg-roll.

Hope this info is useful!

As far as the bair spike; after playing more I find that I eat an egg every time I try to bair spike. I sometimes eat an egg for trying to PKT as well. The Yoshi I play likes to do eggs before recovering to deter would-be gimpers, and it's a difficult thing to get through IMO.

The hardest thing for me is landing that kill. I usually play incredibly defensive for fear that I will eat grabs at low damage or a quick hyphen smash at high damage if I make a mistake with a kill move.

My kills are usually made with a decayed Ftilt at really high %, lol.

 

[Blackbelt]

OK, so we're stuck between 45-55 and 40-60.



We need to figure this out.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

OK, so we're stuck between 45-55 and 40-60.



We need to figure this out.

42.5 - 57.5?

I would say its more in Yoshi's favor because I have a hard time finishing him off. But that's probably just my careful play style against him, and not the matchup.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

42.5 - 57.5?

I would say its more in Yoshi's favor because I have a hard time finishing him off. But that's probably just my careful play style against him, and not the matchup.

nope thats the match-up. I often have the same problems. I dont really have a problem building up the damage but finishing him off is a tough one. Probably because his jab clashes with foward smash which is my main kill move

 

[Nitrix]

The fact you say Lucas has a bad recovery game shows you have very little Lucas experience.

The fact that you shrug off my entire post because you disagree with my opinion of Lucas's recovery is pretty stupid.

 

[Blackbelt]

The fact that you shrug off my entire post because you disagree with my opinion of Lucas's recovery is pretty stupid.

The thing is, your opinion is incorrect, and ignores the facts.

 

[Levitas]

I know more about the matchup than you, Nitrix.

I would agree. Diddy has 3 spikes to take advantage of Lucas's bad recovery game and can give Lucas a very hard time on the ground.

Lucas does have a hard time on the ground. He's never on the ground, though.

As far as recovery game, good luck with that. You've never seen a competent lucas player recover, or you would know that spiking him isn't the most effective gimp option that Diddy has.

Lucas's PK-Fire can be mildly annoying, but Diddy can avoid it and punish Lucas fairly easily.

By that logic, Lucas's fire is useless against everyone and shouldn't ever be used for fear of punishment. Diddy isn't particularly fast or good at punishing fire.

Lucas can try to land a smash, but chances are that Diddy will be very hard to punish.

Because that's how lucas kills most of the time. Actually, he does KO with smashes often. There's often a Dair involved first. And diddy is really tough to punish why? Supporting your posts with reasons like high speed/range or low cooldown would make more sense.

Diddy out-prioritizes him in the air as well.

this isn't a huge problem, look at Falco or DDD, both of which have much more priority than lucas in the air.

I disagree

I agree.

 

[Blackbelt]

Thank you for that, Levitas.


Now than, can we please talk about whether Yoshi is 45-55 or 40-60? I'd like to move onto ROB by tomorrow evening.

 

[prOAPC]

CONFIRMED!!!
Yoshi can't grab Lucas while charging his Fsmash with a running grab.
I don't know why, but i have a pic where Yoshi missed the grab, like if Lucas spotdodged.
Standing grab will grab.
Don't know if Yochi can't grab from behind too.
Can someone test it with other characters with tether grab (Lucas, Samus, Link...)?
I may post the picture later, along with the replay where i'm testing it (.bin)

 

[Mmac]

Uh.... Did he grab Point Blank? He can't grab people with a dash grab if they are completely in front of them (Unless they are as wide as hell)

 

[Nitrix]

I know more about the matchup than you, Nitrix.

*sigh*

By that logic, Lucas's fire is useless against everyone and shouldn't ever be used for fear of punishment. Diddy isn't particularly fast or good at punishing fire.

Are you going to spam PK Fire against MK? Obviously not, because eventually he will charge in and hurt you. Diddy is the same way, and can punish with a Dash Attack after an air-dodged PK. He doesn't even have to charge in. He can throw a glide-tossed banana to stop the PK and lead into a Dash Attack or grab.

Lucas does have a hard time on the ground. He's never on the ground, though.

You say that Lucas is never on the ground. Then you agree when I say that Diddy out-prioritizes him in the air, and you say that isn't a problem. Makes perfect sense.

Diddy is really tough to punish why? Supporting your posts with reasons like high speed/range or low cooldown would make more sense.

Diddy is very fast with a quick turnaround and a dash attack that has multi-hits and virutally zero lag. Plus it can combo into an u-tilt to f-air combo or or other aerials quite easily. Dash Attack is one of Diddy's staple moves and is VERY HARD to punish.

Secondly, Diddy has bananas on the ground. You have to get past the bananas before you can get to Diddy.

 

[Levitas]

Lucas specializes on air to ground pressure. He doesn't need to approach because of the PK fire.

Spamming PK fire isn't a good idea. Baiting with it is. You don't get punished for is because you use it to punish mistakes and fend off approaches. MK is one of the easier ones to do this to because if he's in the air, he WILL not get through your pk fire before you've retreated enough. Diddy is the same way.

Lucas has quick moves, a nair that multi-hits with an autocancel into a frame 2 jab. He can combo dthrows to utilts or nairs and nairs to ftilts and dairs to dtilts to fsmashes. Nair is one of Lucas's staple moves and is VERY HARD to punish.

Secondly, Lucas has PK fire between him and his opponent. You have to get past the fire before you can get to Diddy.

In all seriousness, though, if you have a dude that's jumping around using zoning tools to get someone close or in lag and then closes in with low priority moves, aerial priority of the guy on the ground in lag isn't a tremendous problem.

Also, that last post talked about Diddy's attributes, but said nothing about how they work in the lucas/diddy matchup. sorta like this one.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Poor Yoshi....
getting neglected again. lol

 

[Levitas]

Yoshi has better aerial priority than lucas in general. He's also in the air a lot.

 

[SonicBoom2]

But wait...
Aren't we on the ground a lot too?

 

[Levitas]

We are? since when?

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

But wait...
Aren't we on the ground a lot too?

you mean ive been playing Lucas wrong this whole time?! NOOO!!!!!

 

[Blackbelt]

Well, we do have a Jab that's faster than the majority of the cast.


I find the air or ground thing to be on a matchup to matchup basis.


In Yoshi's case, I'd rather be aerial, due to the chaingrab.

 

[ArowYoshi]

ill just say that ive played lucas three times in a row during a tourney before, that was annoying. im a sucker for falling into pk fire traps but i think now ive gotten a handle on it. i know we have a chain grab on you, and you guys are relatively light making you easier to KO than us. our eggs can gimp you guys but the chances of me hitting that little lightning bolt whithout hitting you is quite slim. you guys have a great usmash which can ultimatly keep a Yoshi from yoshi bombing you guys. but our uair can out range your dair and thats bad because its our main killing move. our eggspam can be rough but can be worked around. IDK im gonna stick with 60:40 in our favor because i cant remember correctly if our chain grab can lead to a release spike... ill go check in a sec.

 

[Levitas]

Grab release to spike works on neither ness nor lucas iirc.

I really don't know what to make of posts that include Lucas's Usmash. Yes, it's big. Yes, it's slow. No, it's not good against people not named Luigi.

 

[prOAPC]

the only characters i play mostly in the ground, is with MK and Yoshi
the grab release doesn't lead to the spike, but it puts lucas in a very bad place, i recomend to zap jump as soon as you can

 

[prOAPC]

here's a pic where Yoshi missed the grab

 

[Mmac]

Yeah, Yoshi has a blind spot point blank in front of him that Thin Characters can exploit. This is nothing new (In fact, this is as old as 64!), and you would get the same results even if he was just standing still. Yoshi shouldn't be dash grabbing that close in the first place anyways

 

[_clinton]

I like that picture ^_^

 

[Blackbelt]

Sorry I couldn't get to moving on earlier. Circumstances outside my control prevented me from updating.



Anyway, let's talk about the final top tier character, ROB.



And I wanna do Link next week, so if no one suggests anyone, that's who we will discuss.

 

[stingers]

I've played against a Lucas named Irsic...that's all the Lucas experience I have though.

Anyway make sure you Magnet his lasers, they're pretty easy to see coming. Umm....Nair seems like it'd **** ROB...

I really don't have a lot of Lucas experience X_X; sorry

 

[Irsic]

that would be me!

 

[heytallman]

I don't have too much experience against ROB, you can deal with his camping (PSI magnet the lasers and fsmash/dodge gyro), but I really don't know enough about this particular matchup. I use ROB as my alt lol, but have no idea how the matchup goes. I would GUESS somewhere in ROB's favor. As to how much I have no idea.

Also, let's discuss Link next week, blackbelt. I wanna hear what people have to say.

 

[Irsic]

Let's start this off with a couple vids:

Irsic vs. GameQ on Lylat Cruise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3iiuYvAFj0

Irsic vs. GameQ on Final D #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDQ8h9jbRG4

Irsic vs. GameQ on Final D #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJcNB26Iygo

Irsic vs. Xeno on Smashville
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYRGJbuatB0

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

i'm too sleepy to be specific so...

our jab>his dsmash
pk fire to space.
absorb laser
fsmash gyro and it's yours.
PKT while he's off stage to rack up damage, and if you're good enough with it, gimp him or set up a gimp situation.
his tilts>>>>our tilts
his nair is too good
funny thing is our nair combos well on him.
pick at his blind spot with autocancelled uairs. then start empty SH'ing if you see him airdodge pivot grab, pummel and dthrow. watch out if he tries to ff his nair. shield and punish
he can gimp you if you waste your second jump
it's not that hard really.
i always thought it was even.

 

[Irsic]

our jab>his dsmash

Yeah, but it clanks I'm pretty sure. Still the only sure fire way to beat it.

pk fire to space.

Can be reflected, but that's pretty stupid, spammy PK Fire can really hold ROB off though if they aren't being ridiculously campy. (NO FD)

absorb laser

Extremely predictable.

fsmash gyro and it's yours.

Tough to do, and it doesn't reflect exactly. I've reflected it and actually had it hit ROB mid flight once.

PKT while he's off stage to rack up damage, and if you're good enough with it, gimp him or set up a gimp situation.

his tilts>>>>our tilts

Yeah, but he is heavy enough where if you get him above you, you can utilt -> utilt -> nair in the eariler %s for some easy damage.

his nair is too good

Seriously. Don't even bother trying to really get around this, if he's getting stupid and spammy with it, you can sometimes get a usmash into the range of the ROB. I really don't recommend this but some ROBs fall into a pattern with this.

funny thing is our nair combos well on him.

**** skippy, dont be stupid.

pick at his blind spot with autocancelled uairs. then start empty SH'ing if you see him airdodge pivot grab, pummel and dthrow. watch out if he tries to ff his nair. shield and punish

I still haven't found this blind spot, me thinks.

he can gimp you if you waste your second jump

You can't bs a bser. Stay away from offstage vs. a ROB.

it's not that hard really.
i always thought it was even.

It's one of Lucas' best top tier match ups, imo.

 

[Levitas]

PKT while he's off stage to rack up damage, and if you're good enough with it, gimp him or set up a gimp situation.

Rob has the tools to avoid PKT better than most of the cast, but I guess it still works sometime.

pick at his blind spot with autocancelled uairs. then start empty SH'ing if you see him airdodge pivot grab, pummel and dthrow. watch out if he tries to ff his nair. shield and punish
he can gimp you if you waste your second jump

All aerials he has below him and behind him have slow startup. Be more wary of FF fairs for the mixup. I agree w/ the use of Uair.

i always thought it was even.

It's not even. Rob's tilt/fair zoning game is mostly unanswered by our game, so before you get to rob, you need to get through that stuff. Rob's like a marth with projectiles that's worse at destroying lucas, but that's still an advantage for him. They've got the advantage as long as they realize that Rob shouldn't play like a rob when he faces lucas.

Yeah, but it clanks I'm pretty sure. Still the only sure fire way to beat it.

clanks is good. you'll note that dsmash hits on frame 4, jab hits on frame 2. Just be sure that if you're not in range to hit the rob w/ the second one, you're gonna have to jab to clank, shield the full dsmash that comes next, then either GTFO or nair. They'll usually go for the 2nd dsmash.

Can be reflected, but that's pretty stupid, spammy PK Fire can really hold ROB off though if they aren't being ridiculously campy. (NO FD)

rob will camp for free damage until you either make a net gain in health off the laser or you close the distance. rob will then zone you with fairs and tilts and it will hurt. The real camping that lucas has a problem with is the same kind of camping marth used in melee, so you guys that have been around since melee will know what we're talking about/how to get around it/how good it is anyway.

Tough to do, and it doesn't reflect exactly. I've reflected it and actually had it hit ROB mid flight once.

You don't generally reflect the one that's flying at you. the one sitting on the floor (in place) is the one you fsmash, and they have to get close and waste time not hurting you to gain control of that part of the stage again. Use that opening.

Seriously. Don't even bother trying to really get around this, if he's getting stupid and spammy with it, you can sometimes get a usmash into the range of the ROB. I really don't recommend this but some ROBs fall into a pattern with this.

I don't remember what you quoted here, but the way that your sentence is worded makes me think it's not a matchup thing so much as a player thing. Pattern manipulation and other forms of mindgames, as well as "X character is spammy, so..." is not a valid line of thought for this kind of discussion.

**** skippy, dont be stupid.

nobody's ever stupid. No, really...

I still haven't found this blind spot, me thinks.

Rob can't react to SH uair with anything if he hasn't started his aerial when you do a SH Uair from below because of his aerials' startup. I don't know what spacing fresh is referring to specifically, but I assume that this is the bottom front corner where all his options are too slow to hit and he can't just descend with a Dair that he initiates early.

It's one of Lucas' best top tier match ups, imo.

No doubt, but Lucas loses this one. Rob likes doing the same things as lucas.


Rob's laser/gyro are better zoning tools than lucas's pk fire by far. They cover a much larger part of the stage, and gyro is even a really safe approach.

Rob uses his dsmash a LOT like we use nair, and although it's inferior as a shield pressure technique, it's better overall with a lower startup (read: you must jump to nair, and jumping alone is more frames to leave the ground than his dsmash)

Rob does with his fair and tilts what we wish we could do with ours.

Our smashes kill sooner than rob... but we only hit with fsmash, which is on the same level as his anyway. I guess sometimes we use dsmash, but it only punishes spotdodge well, and lucas can't force a spotdodge well.

Rob's heavy and has a better recovery than lucas. That combination is really rare.


TL;DR, I agree with most of what the two before me said. The quoted stuff is what I have some sort of comment/discrepancy on. Rob does what we do with better range, pressure, and he survives better.