Lucas General Discussion

[zFrost]

and then deepvoice and i will watch and laugh at how bad you are i could help maybe too iunno.

 

[20PK]

I'm pretty sure no one here is worse than me considering I just started playing last month lmao

Nah though everyone obviously sucks at the beginning, just make an active attempt to improve and you'll get better. Once some local players noted that I'd been getting better the last practice sesh or so my confidence went up a lot.

Incidentally, one of my PM friends says that playing against CPUs are pretty worthless because they don't behave like real players would behave. I.e. DI, etc. Thoughts on that?

 

[Squ0ldrive]

@ 20PK It seems to me that PMDT has at least tried to make the cpus more human like then brawl's cpu's

@ zFrost Lol My poor Lucas.

@ D e l t a I think I am just going to a link here, so other people can see too. but I am most hyped to hear what you have to say.

In other news I just learned how to wavemagnet. :D

 

[Jamwa]

CPU's are pointless

except for Fox/Falco. let them laser on the spot and try powershielding everything good practice

 

[D e l t a]

CPUs aren't 100% pointless. They allow you to understand how to combo the character, how to punish certain aspects of a recovery, and you learn what moves are good / bad for the enemy to approach with in neutral. The only bad thing is their lack of perfect DI, odd reactions that are either frame perfect or piss poor, and the low amount of mixups.

For myself, I learned to combo most of the cast flawlessly. In training mode, I would throw a Fox/Falco off the stage, pause for about 1/2 a second to make the CPU drop and not recover immediately. When they were about halfway down to the blast zone but could still recover, I would learn the exact timings on Lucas' Bair spike or when to execute a Dsmash.

Against Yoshi, I learned when I could use a Dair to slow him down / spike, when I could use a footstool, or when the armor ran out and I could punish him after that.

tl;dr CPUs aren't advanced, but they're useful for practice against certain elements of the game such as combos with bad / no DI and how to ledge guard the basic recoveries of a character.

 

[D e l t a]

@ D e l t a I think I am just going to a link here, so other people can see too. but I am most hyped to hear what you have to say.

In other news I just learned how to wavemagnet. :D

Nice! Wave magnets are so much fun!! :D

I'm excited to see your Lucas. I always have much love for anyone that plays the character.

Just let me know if you want a full analysis -or- if you simply want an understanding of why this / that move didn't work, where you should improve in neutral, when you got punished, etc. I'm fine with writing up a full analysis, it would just take longer than writing up brief tid-bits on general stuff / little improvements.

 

[Jamwa]

-how to combo the character
if real people dont SDI and DI then yeah sure (not to mention counter attack or do special stuff like Yoshi DJ to armour through combos)
-how to punish certain aspects of a recovery
cpu's usually do the same one over and over again. usually not sweetspotted either
-learn neutral
neutral game is probably the most player dependent aspect of this game, as you have to read openings. cpu movement is also really really lacking.

the only thing you're going to learn from a CPU is how to beat a CPU (and probably spacing but then again CPUs do not do this optimally on every move). do not base your fundamentals off this

 

[D e l t a]

-how to combo the character
if real people dont SDI and DI then yeah sure (not to mention counter attack or do special stuff like Yoshi DJ to armour through combos)
-how to punish certain aspects of a recovery
cpu's usually do the same one over and over again. usually not sweetspotted either
-learn neutral
neutral game is probably the most player dependent aspect of this game, as you have to read openings. cpu movement is also really really lacking.

the only thing you're going to learn from a CPU is how to beat a CPU (and probably spacing but then again CPUs do not do this optimally on every move). do not base your fundamentals off this

Not saying any of my fundamentals are based off this at all. Simply put, I learn what each and every character can do, and how to beat it. If opponent goes to do X, I know that my options Y & Z can beat it, but W & Q cannot. In neutral, there's only so many good moves a character has to approach with. If I learn to punish the bad ones and space out against the good approaches, I can only get better.

Likewise, if the opponent does not go for a Sweetspot when recovering, I have that option covered. In training mode, I actually force the CPU to go where I want. I use different %'s to throw them offstage and place them at odd angles for recovering.

As for combos, Lucas' combo game is so good that we have options for just about every type of DI. If you watch any of my sets, I combo every character very well, no matter who it is or what character they're playing, and in my head I'm constantly thinking of "if they DI this way, do this. If they can escape my combo, followup pressure by using this move, etc" For a real example, I trained against Zelda for weeks on end after losing the the character multiple times. I recognized how her UpB fully functions and how she plays in neutral overall. This weekend I vsed Zhime, the undisputably best Zelda there is. I STILL managed to combo his Zelda very well, I played neutral solidly, and after a few games I adapted to his playstyle extremely well.

Not saying CPUs are the best practice, but if you pracfice against CPUs while thinking of ALL options you can cover, and doing the best to cover as many as possible, playing against a computer can be very good experience.

 

[D e l t a]

A vast majority of my experience and knowledge has come from purely watching YouTube videos and practicing the things I've seen from those videos. I've optimized my gameplay to slightly emulate that of top players. The only thing too players have over me is more tournament experience to space better, adapt easier, and mostly not get grabbed or hit by random attacks. Other than that, I would say I have better edge guards than some of the top Lucas players, a more solid combo game, and one of the better OoS games of most Lucas I've seen. All because I practice these scenarios dozens of times against CPUs or I've seen a similar situation happen from a video, and I learned how to counter / escape the situation.

CPUs give me something to train on and constantly allow me to improve. They're not the best, but it's better than nothing.

 

[Jamwa]

ok cpu man, just dont drag other ppl down with u

 

[PlateProp]

Jamwa you were right, this guy's hilarious

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Jamwa you were right, this guy's hilarious

Hey Im the "hilarious" one here, @ D e l t a does alot for this community.

 

[PlateProp]

Hey Im the "hilarious" one here, @ D e l t a does alot for this community.

C P U B O Y S much?

If anyone honestly thinks that cpus will teach you how to beat characters they're an idiot

 

[zFrost]

http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-439#post-14739329 hello

 

[D e l t a]

@ PlateProp @ Jamwa @ImG | PF | Softie Please leave this thread discussion if all you are going to do is post negative and disrespectful comments. You are more than welcome to stay here if you would like to have a healthy, positive discussion about Lucas as a character or in general. If you are going to bash on myself or other members, I would rather you do so among yourselves in private. Thank you.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

I might not be a proffesional lucas player, but I can still try to help you to the best of my ability
Would you mind looking at mine too? Might be a while, waiting for another SD card to ship from amazon, my other broke

 

[Squ0ldrive]

I am going to make the video tonight. :D
Im so hyped to see what you guys have to say!

I will post a youtube link on this thread.

 

[D e l t a]

Anybody who wants critiques please try to post them in the Lucas videos thread here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/watching-little-boys-a-lucas-video-thread.331871/page-6#post-18694126

I'm watching that thread so I'll get a notification when you send it. There's always the option of sending it directly to me if you feel too shy about sending it to everybody. I don't judge how bad you are, only noting what was good / bad about your playing.

Also, let me know if you want to know about everything in the matches you guys send, or more general details such as "ledge guards need improvement, here's how: ___" or "At mm:ss, you attempted to do this move, these moves could cover that option better, and use this type of spacing."

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Anybody who wants critiques please try to post them in the Lucas videos thread here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/watching-little-boys-a-lucas-video-thread.331871/page-6#post-18694126

I'm watching that thread so I'll get a notification when you send it. There's always the option of sending it directly to me if you feel too shy about sending it to everybody. I don't judge how bad you are, only noting what was good / bad about your playing.

Also, let me know if you want to know about everything in the matches you guys send, or more general details such as "ledge guards need improvement, here's how: ___" or "At mm:ss, you attempted to do this move, these moves could cover that option better, and use this type of spacing."

In my case I dont feel as shy, as I once was.

Sure I will post it in the videos thread.

 

[PMMikey]

Do I really have to learn how to djc like is it needed?

 

[D e l t a]

Do I really have to learn how to djc like is it needed?

"like it is needed" Please clarify what you mean. There are many aspects to Double Jump Cancelling.

DJC PK Freeze is among the most heavily used & useful of Lucas' DJC moves. DJC aerials can be used OoS and allow you to quickly counter and regain control / pressure. DJC aerials are fantastic at starting combos / converting into longer combos at low %. During advanced combos, stalling momentum with a double jump where you do not rise nor fall drastically is very important. I hope some of this answers your question.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

"like it is needed" Please clarify what you mean. There are many aspects to Double Jump Cancelling.

DJC PK Freeze is among the most heavily used & useful of Lucas' DJC moves. DJC aerials can be used OoS and allow you to quickly counter and regain control / pressure. DJC aerials are fantastic at starting combos / converting into longer combos at low %. During advanced combos, stalling momentum with a double jump where you do not rise nor fall drastically is very important. I hope some of this answers your question.

How do you DJC PKF?

 

[zFrost]

doa djc and then pkf lol

 

[D e l t a]

How do you DJC PKF?

Copypasta from @Badge in the "Perfect DJC PKF timings" thread:

Two timings:
frame 1: jump
(frame 5: airborn)
frame 9/11: DJ
frame 14/12: PKF

Basically jump (short hop or full, doesn't really matter), then double jump as you're beginning to rise, and right as you're doing your double jump, use a SideB aka PK Freeze. The double jump happens a tiny bit before you reach the apex of your full jump and right about when you do a short hop. If you choose to full hop for a DJC PKF, you may need to use the double jump faster.

Personally, I constantly alternate between timings and distances to zone out my opponent. For now, work on getting the timings for keeping PKF close to the ground and the timings for max distance. Keep in mind, when practicing the timings for max distance, you may accidentally cancel your jump TOO FAST, and instead be throwing out nothing. This happens a number of times to just about every Lucas main, so don't worry too much. A similar thing happens for Falco mains when attempting to SH Laser very close to the ground. It just takes some practice getting used to the different timings.

 

[PMMikey]

"like it is needed" Please clarify what you mean. There are many aspects to Double Jump Cancelling.

DJC PK Freeze is among the most heavily used & useful of Lucas' DJC moves. DJC aerials can be used OoS and allow you to quickly counter and regain control / pressure. DJC aerials are fantastic at starting combos / converting into longer combos at low %. During advanced combos, stalling momentum with a double jump where you do not rise nor fall drastically is very important. I hope some of this answers your question.

I knew you would reply Delta, and I mean like if I went to a tournament would I lose if I didn't know how to do it?

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Copypasta from @Badge in the "Perfect DJC PKF timings" thread:

Two timings:
frame 1: jump
(frame 5: airborn)
frame 9/11: DJ
frame 14/12: PKF

Basically jump (short hop or full, doesn't really matter), then double jump as you're beginning to rise, and right as you're doing your double jump, use a SideB aka PK Freeze. The double jump happens a tiny bit before you reach the apex of your full jump and right about when you do a short hop. If you choose to full hop for a DJC PKF, you may need to use the double jump faster.

Personally, I constantly alternate between timings and distances to zone out my opponent. For now, work on getting the timings for keeping PKF close to the ground and the timings for max distance. Keep in mind, when practicing the timings for max distance, you may accidentally cancel your jump TOO FAST, and instead be throwing out nothing. This happens a number of times to just about every Lucas main, so don't worry too much. A similar thing happens for Falco mains when attempting to SH Laser very close to the ground. It just takes some practice getting used to the different timings.

What I ment to say was what inputs do you find most easy, when trying to pull of the a DJC PKF

Do you you input.

>>

or do you use tap jump,

>>

or do you glide your finger,

>>

or do you input for a DCJ PKF a other way?

 

[Scraket]

What I ment to say was what inputs do you find most easy, when trying to pull of the a DJC PKF

Do you you input.

>>

or do you use tap jump,

>>

or do you glide your finger,

>>

or do you input for a DCJ PKF a other way?

the first one

 

[D e l t a]

I knew you would reply Delta, and I mean like if I went to a tournament would I lose if I didn't know how to do it?

Winning is based upon taking your opponents stocks before they take yours. A simple thing like knowing DJC PKF isn't going to drastically make you a better player. Case in point, StereoKiDD is one of the best Ness mains, yet he rarely utilizes Magnet or Dtilt. DJC PKF is just a great approach option on most of the cast, and is relatively hard to punish. It creates openings, covers tech options, and does chip damage that adds up over the game (4-5% each).

What I ment to say was what inputs do you find most easy, when trying to pull of the a DJC PKF
or do you input for a DCJ PKF a other way?

Yeah, uhh.... I use none of the above lol

Double tap on Z for me. If I don't pracfice for a while it hurts my finger to constantly do this method. I don't recommend to anybody who does not practice regularly to use Z jump. If you take a long break I recommend using PKF only 20-30mins one day, 30-40mins the next day, and about 1hr of play time the day after that before your finger starts to get used to longer periods of DJC PKF again. The pointer finger has weak muscles and can only stand so much. Don't over work it and become the next M2K

My current and possibly final change to my custom controls changes 3 buttons: R, Z, and Y.

R = Attack - only for DACUS. Changed from Grab so that I can whiff dash attacks and not get punished
Z = Jump - I use for mainly everything except for Nairs. I never Nair with Z, only X jump. I don't know why, something to do with timing or not being able to SH Nair with Z I guess.
Y = Grab - gotta have grab somewhere.

Extra stuff about my control scheme history~~~

Spoiler

Overall, my control scheme is based off Brawl. I used Y for grabs since Brawl because I tried practicing chain grabs all the time with IC's and Z would hurt my finger.

I used up on Dpad as jump for a long while to perform Upsmash OoS, my first option I used most out of shield. This was as Olimar for a long while and I also got used to grabs this way.

I used Z jump later on when picking up MK to perform aerials with ease in the air using C stick. I wanted full analog control, ability to have a jump button at any time, and of course I wanted access to any and all aerial attacks.

When playing Brawl Snake, mainly because of his DACUS (I still love sliding half the screen with his DACUS), I had Z back to grab. Eventually I got sick of 2 tags for separate controls and made 1 tag, setting R to Grab. At the time, I didn't know that Grab could be Attack as they function similarity when used as part of DACUS or the beginning frames (grab acts as Attack sometimes, which is why jab -> jab -> grab might pull up shield)

 

[Scraket]

@ D e l t a
In 3.5 the DACUS window is the same whether you use grab or attack
In 3.0 I used to have z set to attack (for easier DACUS) and x to grab but now I just use default controls, which is great since I'm trying to get better at melee currently.
Imo using y-y-b for DJC pkf is way better. The thumbs don't get tired as easily as the other fingers.... but then again its all up to personal preference.

 

[D e l t a]

@ D e l t a
In 3.5 the DACUS window is the same whether you use grab or attack
In 3.0 I used to have z set to attack (for easier DACUS) and x to grab but now I just use default controls, which is great since I'm trying to get better at melee currently.
Imo using y-y-b for DJC pkf is way better. The thumbs don't get tired as easily as the other fingers.... but then again its all up to personal preference.

Yeah I realized that DACUS is the same with either grab or attack, which is why I went with using Attack for R. If I mess up, a dash attack has less end lag than a whiffed standing / dash grab, is a slight anti air & combo starter, and sometimes pulls out Upsmash that may work better for me bc my enemy might run into that instead.

I'm already going 100 things with my thumbs so I get used to using my pointer finger. It can get tiresome after a long while, generally I don't notice

I'm also getting into Melee again, only I use claw method and put my pointer finger on Y. If doing JC grabs then I switch to standard method and use either my thumb on Y or tap jump. The transition isn't terrible overall. Especially since I'm fully used to tap jump again. I turned it off for a large part of my Brawl days bc I didn't have full control of every button press I did (ie I would constsntly JC Upsmash or Uair instead of doing Utilts)

 

[20PK]

Is it possible to DACUS without attack on R/Z? I briefly attempted doing it normal control scheme with no luck. I detailed the reasons for my current control scheme (L jump, R shield, Y jump, tap jump on, X shield) in my earlier posts in the thread.

 

[Jamwa]

dash, c-stick down, up + z

 

[D e l t a]

Is it possible to DACUS without attack on R/Z? I briefly attempted doing it normal control scheme with no luck.

DACUS = canceling your dash attack with an upsmash. Input dash attack then frame 1-2 after the dash attack is about to start, cancel that input by using an up smash. C stick down/side acts as a dash attack when dashing. The up + Z (grab) or another attack button is simply a JC upsmash. Grab inputs as attack sometimes, which is why you can use Z grab, C stick up, or any other button designated as "attack" to DACUS.

I learned DACUS in Brawl with easier character specific windows - aka Snake having 6 frames of leniency to DACUS, Link's being easy to perform, etc. In PM 3.5 it's universal now so it's slightly easier, just took some time to adapt for me from the 3.02 timings

 

[PK Tripping]

Can someone explain how to wavemagnet? I'm not quite sure what the timing of it is or the control inputs. I know it's a wavedashing toward and a magnet but don't know anything beyond that.

 

[Scraket]

Can someone explain how to wavemagnet? I'm not quite sure what the timing of it is or the control inputs. I know it's a wavedashing toward and a magnet but don't know anything beyond that.

For Lucas you're going to want to wavedash out of magnet. Just put out a magnet and then wavedash back. Keep in mind though that there are additional frames of hit lag when you magnet an opponent or a shield compared to when you magnet regularly.

 

[PK Tripping]

For Lucas you're going to want to wavedash out of magnet. Just put out a magnet and then wavedash back. Keep in mind though that there are additional frames of hit lag when you magnet an opponent or a shield compared to when you magnet regularly.

So basically it's an OOS option except with magnet. Seems legit. Thanks!

 

[Scraket]

So basically it's an OOS option except with magnet. Seems legit. Thanks!

Magnet isn't really a good OOS option because of the start up.
Wavedashing out of magnet is just a really good combo option since it can lead into so much.

 

[D e l t a]

Can someone explain how to wavemagnet? I'm not quite sure what the timing of it is or the control inputs. I know it's a wavedashing toward and a magnet but don't know anything beyond that.

In 3.5, whiffed magnets not hitting any person/object will be the same 3.02 timing of 4 frames start up and 3 frames to jump out of. The major change being that a magnet which hits a person/object will incur slight hitlag frames, and increase the timing to jump cancel. When making contact with a magnet, Lucas will suffer 5 more frames before he is able to jump cancel magnet, making magnet on shield +3 to -2, thus shield pressure with Lucas went from amazing to Ness' level.

Basically throw out a magnet. If it misses, you can wavedash out almost immediately. If it hits, wait a split second, then wavedash out. Obviously it can be jump cancelled so you can do other cool things like magnet -> grab, aerial magnet* -> aerial attack, magnet -> jump -> magnet, etc

*aerial magnets work better to a DJC aerial attack as the added hitlag on magnet makes it harder to follow up on opponents with the 3 frames jump squat plus this hitlag and the extra frame to pull out a double jump / DJC. Practicing in the lab earlier I still found it very difficult to land magnet -> DJC aerial attacks, whereas aerial magnet -> DJC aerial attack was much easier.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Hello Everyone!
I am sorry to say, that I will have to delay the post the videos of my Lucas intill monday morning 8:00 to 12:00ish, due to things of life I can not control.

But on the plus side If you noticed
There will be a "few" videos I will upload.

I hope you will enjoy laughting watching my Lucas

Over

 

[D e l t a]

Hello Everyone!
I am sorry to say, that I will have to delay the post the videos of my Lucas intill monday morning 8:00 to 12:00ish, due to things of life I can not control.

But on the plus side If you noticed
There will be a "few" videos I will upload.

I hope you will enjoy laughting watching my Lucas

Over

No problem! There's honestly no rush. I'll laugh watch it when it's up. I love watching other players to see how they deal with certain situations and the creative combos they come up with.

It's ok if you're too embarrassed to show yourself getting bopped. We understand.