Lucas General Discussion

[Squ0ldrive]

The Videos are Up!

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Do you guys have any tips for approaching as Lucas? I've seen DJC PK freeze used as a kind of combo-starter, allowing people to run in, but I'm not sure which options are best aside from this. I feel like I struggle especially if my opponent can easily use projectiles, like Samus or Mario.

I asked the same question maybe two weeks ago
Some good options are
1. dash, short hop Neutral air/Down air
2. Dash short hop grab (in the air)
3. Short-hop waveland grab (this isn't that good, but can still be viable on enemies that shield)
4. Short-hop waveland Magnet
5. Spam PKF until they come in

What I normally like to do is charge OU before they come in. Most will try to approach you. From there you can roll/shield/spot dodge (whatever works for you) and punish with magnet/Ftilt/Utilt.

If your oponent uses projectiles, you can easily use magnet to absorb them or power shielding. If you can't absorb it, approach him or spam PKF until he does (approach options are listed above.
Hope this helps! If you need any more help feel free to post on my profile page. Always happy to help newcomers!

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Fox is not the best char it is wolf just ask HF Neon, Lol

Ask me for that matter
That's why I main wolf

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

LMFAO laughing even harder. Fox is NOWHERE near that good. And after vsing my old roommate's Lucario for months, most MUs aren't amazing for 3.5 version. He only destroys combo heavy / fast fallers (bowser, Zard, Spacies). Against floaties is super hard for Lucario. Not to mention anybody with a great CC like Peach, Sheik, Yoshi. ROB & Roy being S tier is also extremely laughable

Roy isn't that bad, don't count him out. But Rob? Pht, he's nowhere that close. I think marth, snake, and Mewtwo should be higher up. I agree with you about fox, as noted in many places, people only play fox because of their experience with him in Melee.

Dont sleep on olimar!

Lol yet olimar is still considered C tier

 

[D e l t a]

^

Toon link is for sure a hard MU for Lucas.

How does TL do agaist spacies?

From what I've seen of DVD and Lunchables vs space maminals (specifically Fox/Falco), the MU is interesting. If the opponent has poor item control or doesn't know how to deal with TL's projectiles, the MU will be easier for TL indefinitely. Easy bomb kill setups and they can wrack up damage fast. Against most of the cast TLink can carelessly put projectiles everywhere, but spacies can reflect, clank, or go thru most of TL's stuff. Nair, Bair, lasers, and shine all do exceptionally well at beating his projectiles. Plus, dealing with pressure is a difficulty as TL, whereas all TLink has is proper spacing and projectile pressure. Ledge guards are more favorable to spacies with Bair, Fox shine, Dair, and general on stage smashes if the TL doesn't sweetspot. TL has projectiles and smash reads if the Fox tries getting on stage n stuff, but their UpB's go thru projectiles at certain points when the move starts moving.

It honestly depends on how well the enemy navigates thru TL's wall of projectiles. If they don't get trapped by bomb setups and are cognizant of the boomerang's position, spacies typically win the MU. It's about +1-2 in favor of spacies. IMO Falco does better at dealing with on stage TL, but Fox's ledge guards are a bit easier on TL than Falco's.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Ask me for that matter
That's why I main wolf

Is wolf lucas's hardest MU?

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

I wouldn't say he's hard. At the moment he doesn't play a big threat because few high level players play him. However, his is great for comboing, and against Lucas, I feel like Wolf would do pretty good.
Source: My friend plays lucas and I combo him to death when he plays (probably because his lucas secondary sucks )

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Roy isn't that bad, don't count him out. But Rob? Pht, he's nowhere that close. I think marth, snake, and Mewtwo should be higher up. I agree with you about fox, as noted in many places, people only play fox because of their experience with him in Melee.



Lol yet olimar is still considered C tier

Im am just going to let olimar players defend olimar. Lol

 

[D e l t a]

Approaching with Lucas is something I describe in detail in my guide, but for a simpler version, I'd say PKF -> anything really. It's basically Falco's neutral game with PKF instead of Lasers, and our Fair is actually pretty good (well, 3.02 was, 3.5 is meh). There's also the option of running in with magnet and I find these 2 versions to be best:
Aerial magnet -> aerial attack
Grounded magnet -> WD back / JC grab / aerial magnet -> aerial attack

Typically when approaching shields I run in with a grounded magnet -> WD back and test their reactions OoS. JC grab is if they're constantly shielding our mag pressure. Mag -> aerial mag -> aerial attack if their OoS options are slower or they're bad at responding OoS. Aerial mag -> aerial attack if they're decent at OoS options. If the enemy is great at attacking / grabbing OoS, aerial mag -> fadeback Fair is mostly safe depending on your spacing.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Deepvoiceguy what do you think about short hop nair l cancel into a magnet? It works pretty good for me.

 

[D e l t a]

Wolf is hard to deal with getting dmg at low % due to his great CC and Lucas combos on spacies isn't great until 50%+ Chain grabs do well if you manage to somehow get a grab at low %, then it guarantees a nice 30%+ combo if you don't suck If you get spacies past 50% easily, the rest of their stock isn't too bad. Avoid gimps and being off stage and Lucas does fine. At worst +2 Wolf's favor

Olimar isn't too bad to fight, only the pikmin adding even more hitlag to Lucas' moves when you hit them. But if you have one on you when doing an OU Upsmash it's a huge hitbox that will last even longer > Olimar isn't terrible, simply underused. Watch any video of SS in AZPM streams from 3.02. Not much changed between 3.0 and 3.5 for Oli.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Oops........

 

[D e l t a]

Deepvoiceguy what do you think about short hop nair l cancel into a magnet? It works pretty good for me.

I love his new Nair mostly. Nair -> mag is pretty good with the aerial hitbox, grounded hitbox, and low endlag.
Random blurb, I love how all the hits connect in the air unlike 3.02. Only thing that sucks is unreliability for combos after 30-40%. Plus the grounded hitbox has always been my favorite unique aspect of the move.

 

[D e l t a]

Random post: Lucas' Dtilt clanks with Marth's Fsmash and seems to be slightly advantageous for Lucas.
Around 0:34 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coahSH5cHbk&list=PLUlQZqWo6xoTFtbzfD8o9hQqfrGtn7D26

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

The thing I like about it is its great against CC foes. They crouch cancel the Nair and you pop them with the Magnet.

 

[D e l t a]

Oh yeah, I meant to drop this knowledge on you guys earlier

I've been working on approaches, especially against CC foes. Nair -> spam Dtilt. It works really well since the first hit is a slight tap, the second hit if the enemy is slightly farther back will knock them back a tad further. Give it a try in your playstyle. Unlike magnet, Dtilt comes out frame 3? It's really safe and something new to try out. If anything, it's a cool mixup

 

[Badge]

I've been working on approaches, especially against CC foes. Nair -> spam Dtilt. It works really well since the first hit is a slight tap, the second hit if the enemy is slightly farther back will knock them back a tad further. Give it a try in your playstyle. Unlike magnet, Dtilt comes out frame 3? It's really safe and something new to try out. If anything, it's a cool mixup

I've been using DJC NAir->DTilt a lot to push opponents towards the ledge without much commitment. When you fastfall a DJC NAir it also beats ccing clean (edit) at mid percentages against heavies (/edit) (forces a knockdown), although I didn't think of that before and usually fell back to spamming Magnet against ccing opponents. In particular DJC NAir feels like it fits better into a Magnet/DJC FAir neutral than sh NAir.

Also, @ Badge have you considered doing any 3.5 Lucas TAS vids?

Made a 3.5 TAS :

 

[D e l t a]

Made a 3.5 TAS :

I love you, Badge <3



OK WHO ELSE GOT SUPER HYPED WHEN THAT TAUNT CANCEL WAS THROWN IN THERE?!?!?!

 

[[TIM]]

I love you, Badge <3



OK WHO ELSE GOT SUPER HYPED WHEN THAT TAUNT CANCEL WAS THROWN IN THERE?!?!?!

Those taunt cancels look really nice.. haha. Also, what are the inputs for the combo string from :05 to :07 in the vid?

 

[D e l t a]

Those taunt cancels look really nice.. haha. Also, what are the inputs for the combo string from :05 to :07 in the vid?

It's 3 frame perfect DJC Uairs into dash attack

 

[Badge]

Those taunt cancels look really nice.. haha. Also, what are the inputs for the combo string from :05 to :07 in the vid?

It's DJC UAir->DJC NAir x 2->DA.

I'm happy you guys like the TAS. Btw., if anybody manages to figure out all the stuff that's happening in there including cancels and movement techniques, I'd be impressed.

 

[D e l t a]

It's DJC UAir->DJC NAir x 2->DA.

I'm happy you guys like the TAS. Btw., if anybody manages to figure out all the stuff that's happening in there including cancels and movement techniques, I'd be impressed.

Crap, I feel embarrassed now

For the moments like 10s-12s in, are the PKF being ledge cancelled? I'm not sure if that's a thing or just frame tight landing on platform then sliding off into immediate DJC PKF

I've figured out just about everything else tho ^_^

 

[Scraket]

It's DJC UAir->DJC NAir x 2->DA.

I'm happy you guys like the TAS. Btw., if anybody manages to figure out all the stuff that's happening in there including cancels and movement techniques, I'd be impressed.

the second I saw green hill zone I thought of your djc edgecanceled nair video
and then the Lucas did them

 

[Scraket]

oh and @ D e l t a olimar was definitely not the same in 3.02. He got nerfed bruh

 

[[TIM]]

It's DJC UAir->DJC NAir x 2->DA.

I'm happy you guys like the TAS. Btw., if anybody manages to figure out all the stuff that's happening in there including cancels and movement techniques, I'd be impressed.

I tried.

1st stock: groundMag->dair->pivot->uptilt-> DJC UAir->DJC NAir x 2->DA->Air Magnet->DJC dair->dtiltx3 -> upTilt -> DJC PKF (ledgecancelled) -> djc PKF (ledgecancelled?) -> dair -> jabReset -> charged Downsmash -> Dead

2nd stock: grounded magnet x2 (wolf's invincible) -> air magnet (still invincible) -> grounded Magnet(still invincible) -> DJC(nair) x12 -> grab -> downthrow -> airmagnet -> djc upAir (di back) -> pivot ->DJC upAir->reverse air magnet -> DJC PKF -> WD Forward -> uptilt -> airMagnet -> djc upair (land on platform) -> OU burst -> teter-cancelled taunt -> airMag -> groundedMag -> WD back-> upAir -> DJC upAir -> upB upward -> Dead

3rd stock: Teter-Cancelled Taunt x5 -> upB into stage -> zair -> teter-Cancelled Taunt -> Grounded Magnet (invincible) -> DJC Dair -> DJC Fair x5 -> UpAir -> AirMag -> AirDodge Back -> Zair -> Grab -> Dthrow -> DJC upAir -> DJC upAirx3 ->Dtilt (land on platform) -> DJC fair-> airMag(for positioning) -> reverse AirMag -> full hop -> AirMag -> DJC BackAir -> Dead

Last Stock: 2 Ledge-Cancelled UP B's -> UP B into ledge-> DJC get-Up Dair -> Jab -> Jab2 -> Dtilt -> groundMag -> ReverseAirMag -> GroundedMag -> WD Back -> DJC Fairx2 -> AirMag -> WD Back -> Dash -> pivot Forward Tilt -> AirMag -> WD Back -> Pivot Forward smash -> Waveland Platform -> AirMag(off platform) -> DJC Nair(Back onto platform) -> DJC PKF -> WD Forward(off platform) -> DJC PKF -> WD Forward -> DJC Nair -> DJC PKF -> AirMag -> WD Back -> DACUS ->Dead

 

[20PK]

I've been using DJC NAir->DTilt a lot to push opponents towards the ledge without much commitment. When you fastfall a DJC NAir it also beats ccing clean (forces a knockdown), although I didn't think of that before and usually fell back to spamming Magnet against ccing opponents. In particular DJC NAir feels like it fits better into a Magnet/DJC FAir neutral than sh NAir.

Made a 3.5 TAS :

hoooollyy shiiiit TAS' are crazy

 

[D e l t a]

hoooollyy shiiiit TAS' are crazy

Plot twist: this is actually Badge finally playing 3.5

 

[D e l t a]

oh and @ D e l t a olimar was definitely not the same in 3.02. He got nerfed bruh

I know that. I'm saying fundamentally he's very similar. Not many hit boxes were changed, recovery is still odd and not always the best, and pikmin received minor damage changes. Throws were slightly updated. Is there anything I'm missing?

 

[Scraket]

I know that. I'm saying fundamentally he's very similar. Not many hit boxes were changed, recovery is still odd and not always the best, and pikmin received minor damage changes. Throws were slightly updated. Is there anything I'm missing?

Actually a lot of hitboxes were changed(ftilt, stilt, Upsmash, downsmash all got nerfed), up b now doesn't have a hitbox when tethering, less pikmin hp, etc.
Thats why SS doesn't play Olimar anymore I think.

 

[D e l t a]

Actually a lot of hitboxes were changed(ftilt, stilt, Upsmash, downsmash all got nerfed), up b now doesn't have a hitbox when tethering, less pikmin hp, etc.
Thats why SS doesn't play Olimar anymore I think.

SS has always had other chars he's been working iirc

 

[D e l t a]

@ Badge -senpai, Can you make a short TAS of Lucas recovering a few different ways back on stage from a DACUS hitting shield then making him slide off stage?

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I've been using DJC NAir->DTilt a lot to push opponents towards the ledge without much commitment. When you fastfall a DJC NAir it also beats ccing clean (forces a knockdown), although I didn't think of that before and usually fell back to spamming Magnet against ccing opponents. In particular DJC NAir feels like it fits better into a Magnet/DJC FAir neutral than sh NAir.

Made a 3.5 TAS :

This was post #1337 in this thread. This was either intentional... or destiny.

My favorite part was probably the KB stacking trick with the reverse fsmash, but there were a lot of fun ideas in there, thanks for putting the time into it.

 

[Badge]

For the moments like 10s-12s in, are the PKF being ledge cancelled? I'm not sure if that's a thing or just frame tight landing on platform then sliding off into immediate DJC PKF^

Well, ledge canceling as a term is often used for sliding off a platform to end landing lag and in that sense they are ledge canceled. They're not teeter-canceled tho, but slide-off canceled to put it that way.

I tried.

Not bad, in fact as precise as I can wish for. You mainly missed or didn't denote some of the ledge/auto cancels. In more detail:

Spoiler

(first stock)
Perfect Foxtrot->pivot DownB (knockdown, no tech)->SHFFL DAir->pivot UpTilt->DJCFF UpAir->DJCFF NAir x 2->DA->fh DownB->DJC DAir (ac-ed)->DTilt x 3->UpTilt->fh DJC PKF (ledgecanceled)->DJC PKF (ledgecanceled)->DAir (ac-ed)->Jab (jab-reset)->charged DownSmash->KO/charge OU
(second stock)
DD->grounded Magnet x2->fh aerial Magnet->dj grounded Magnet->sh aerial Magnet->ledgecanceled DJC NAir x5
(Wolf's invincibility ends)ledgecancelled DJC NAir x 12->DownThrow->sh aerial Magnet->DJC UpAir->DJC UpAir (ledgecanceled)->fh reverse b-reverse Magnet->DJC PKF->wd UpTilt->fh Magnet->DJC UpAir (ledgecanceled)->PK Burst->taunt cancel->aerial magnet->landing magnet->wd->UpAir->DJC UpAir->PKT->KO
(third stock)ledge cancel the special landing lag->DJ landing back on stage->taunt cancel x 4->UpB to ledge->tether land onto stage*->DD->Magnet->SHFFL DAir
(Wolf's invincibility ends, last two hits of DAir connect)DJC FAir x 5->DJC UpAir->aerial magnet->airdodge backwards ZAir->DownThrow->DJC UpAir x 4->DJC DAir->DJC FAir->aerial Magnet (no hit)->landing Magnet->fh Magnet->BAir->KO
(fourth stock)ledge canceled PKT x 2->PKT to ledge (clanks with shine)
(Wolf's invincibility ends)ledgehop DJC DAir (ac-ed)->Jab-Combo->DTilt->Magnet->reversed aerial Magnet->landing Magnet->wd backwards->DJC FAir x 2->aerial Magnet (hold until hit)->waveland backwards->pivot FTilt->aerial Magnet->waveland backwards->sliding turn-around FSmash->waveland over platform->aerial Magnet (hold until hit)->DJC NAir backwards to land on platform (no hit)->DJC PKF (ledgecanceled)->DJC FAir forwards to land on stage (no hit)->wavedash->reverse b-reverse PKF->DJC NAir->DJC PKF->aerial Magnet (held between hits)->waveland backwards->DACUS->KO

*this is probably the most difficult tech in the entire video and allows Lucas to act 14 frames after letting go of the ledge.

Can you make a short TAS of Lucas recovering a few different ways back on stage from a DACUS hitting shield then making him slide off stage?

If you tell me exactly what should be in the video/replay, I can make one quickly (for use in a guide or such). If you're also asking me to do research on what the exact best way would be (probably tether back->ledge option) that would take enough effort for me not to make any promises. I'd look into it when/if I got time for it.

My favorite part was probably the KB stacking trick with the reverse fsmash, but there were a lot of fun ideas in there, thanks for putting the time into it.

I spend the most of the stock setting up for that and the FTilt. Glad you liked it!

 

[20PK]

I did really terrible in a local tournament today. In particular I had trouble dealing with Link - I couldn't find some way to approach because of all the projectiles. But aside from that I just cracked under pressure and was playing really horribly even minus the pressure anyway. One of my friends said that I'd do some crazy tech like DJCs, magnets, etc. but then do really stupid things like roll, miss techs, space/footsies incredibly badly, etc. so I should play another character to get fundamentals downpat, since a lot of Lucas play and neutral rests on that technical stuff, unlike less technical other characters. I'm maybe considering picking up a swordie like Roy or Ike (not Marth because im 2hipster4that). Do you guys think it'd be good or would it mess up my main too much seeing as I only really started trying to play seriously last month?

ps vids should be up soonish idk

 

[D e l t a]

I did really terrible in a local tournament today. In particular I had trouble dealing with Link - I couldn't find some way to approach because of all the projectiles. But aside from that I just cracked under pressure and was playing really horribly even minus the pressure anyway. One of my friends said that I'd do some crazy tech like DJCs, magnets, etc. but then do really stupid things like roll, miss techs, space/footsies incredibly badly, etc. so I should play another character to get fundamentals downpat, since a lot of Lucas play and neutral rests on that technical stuff, unlike less technical other characters. I'm maybe considering picking up a swordie like Roy or Ike (not Marth because im 2hipster4that). Do you guys think it'd be good or would it mess up my main too much seeing as I only really started trying to play seriously last month?

ps vids should be up soonish idk

Falco has a similar neutral and is more simple to play. He's less technical comparatively and is good against Link. Focus on being less technical and more read based / adapt. Learn how to approach better and see what works / doesn't work. Approaching with shield against projectiles if you have a good OoS game is still an approach

 

[Scraket]

Well, ledge canceling as a term is often used for sliding off a platform to end landing lag and in that sense they are ledge canceled. They're not teeter-canceled tho, but slide-off canceled to put it that way.


Not bad, in fact as precise as I can wish for. You mainly missed or didn't denote some of the ledge/auto cancels. In more detail:

Spoiler

(first stock)
Perfect Foxtrot->pivot DownB (knockdown, no tech)->SHFFL DAir->pivot UpTilt->DJCFF UpAir->DJCFF NAir x 2->DA->fh DownB->DJC DAir (ac-ed)->DTilt x 3->UpTilt->fh DJC PKF (ledgecanceled)->DJC PKF (ledgecanceled)->DAir (ac-ed)->Jab (jab-reset)->charged DownSmash->KO/charge OU
(second stock)
DD->grounded Magnet x2->fh aerial Magnet->dj grounded Magnet->sh aerial Magnet->ledgecanceled DJC NAir x5
(Wolf's invincibility ends)ledgecancelled DJC NAir x 12->DownThrow->sh aerial Magnet->DJC UpAir->DJC UpAir (ledgecanceled)->fh reverse b-reverse Magnet->DJC PKF->wd UpTilt->fh Magnet->DJC UpAir (ledgecanceled)->PK Burst->taunt cancel->aerial magnet->landing magnet->wd->UpAir->DJC UpAir->PKT->KO
(third stock)ledge cancel the special landing lag->DJ landing back on stage->taunt cancel x 4->UpB to ledge->tether land onto stage*->DD->Magnet->SHFFL DAir
(Wolf's invincibility ends, last two hits of DAir connect)DJC FAir x 5->DJC UpAir->aerial magnet->airdodge backwards ZAir->DownThrow->DJC UpAir x 4->DJC DAir->DJC FAir->aerial Magnet (no hit)->landing Magnet->fh Magnet->BAir->KO
(fourth stock)ledge canceled PKT x 2->PKT to ledge (clanks with shine)
(Wolf's invincibility ends)ledgehop DJC DAir (ac-ed)->Jab-Combo->DTilt->Magnet->reversed aerial Magnet->landing Magnet->wd backwards->DJC FAir x 2->aerial Magnet (hold until hit)->waveland backwards->pivot FTilt->aerial Magnet->waveland backwards->sliding turn-around FSmash->waveland over platform->aerial Magnet (hold until hit)->DJC NAir backwards to land on platform (no hit)->DJC PKF (ledgecanceled)->DJC FAir forwards to land on stage (no hit)->wavedash->reverse b-reverse PKF->DJC NAir->DJC PKF->aerial Magnet (held between hits)->waveland backwards->DACUS->KO

*this is probably the most difficult tech in the entire video and allows Lucas to act 14 frames after letting go of the ledge.


If you tell me exactly what should be in the video/replay, I can make one quickly (for use in a guide or such). If you're also asking me to do research on what the exact best way would be (probably tether back->ledge option) that would take enough effort for me not to make any promises. I'd look into it when/if I got time for it.


I spend the most of the stock setting up for that and the FTilt. Glad you liked it!

That tether land on stage duringthe third stock confused me greatly. It was also smooth as hell.

 

[D e l t a]

(fourth stock)

Spoiler

ledge canceled PKT x 2->PKT to ledge (clanks with shine)
(Wolf's invincibility ends)ledgehop DJC DAir (ac-ed)->Jab-Combo->DTilt->Magnet->reversed aerial Magnet->landing Magnet->wd backwards->DJC FAir x 2->aerial Magnet (hold until hit)->waveland backwards->pivot FTilt->aerial Magnet->waveland backwards->sliding turn-around FSmash->waveland over platform->aerial Magnet (hold until hit)->DJC NAir backwards to land on platform (no hit)->DJC PKF (ledgecanceled)->DJC FAir forwards to land on stage (no hit)->wavedash->reverse b-reverse PKF->DJC NAir->DJC PKF->aerial Magnet (held between hits)->waveland backwards->DACUS->KO

The execution of the tech in this stock. My body isn't ready 0_0

If you tell me exactly what should be in the video/replay, I can make one quickly (for use in a guide or such). If you're also asking me to do research on what the exact best way would be (probably tether back->ledge option) that would take enough effort for me not to make any promises. I'd look into it when/if I got time for it.

Something like that. A TAS where the first available frame that you can act out of sliding off stage from DACUS or just recovering in general from sliding off stage from DACUS. I feel that ever time I slide off I'm about to get ledge guarded bc it takes forever to recover back.

 

[20PK]

Falco has a similar neutral and is more simple to play. He's less technical comparatively and is good against Link. Focus on being less technical and more read based / adapt. Learn how to approach better and see what works / doesn't work. Approaching with shield against projectiles if you have a good OoS game is still an approach

Hmm, I don't like playing as tru-spacies much and they're probably just as technical though. Maybe I'll just really work at my neutral like you're suggesting in the video thread and focus on that, and maybe play around with Roy and see how I go. I'm somewhat scared to learn a new character so I dunno.

 

[D e l t a]

Honestly, just work on less tech based options in neutral and see what works. You don't have to DJC everything and it actually halts your horizontal momentum

 

[Kipcom]

I've been using DJC NAir->DTilt a lot to push opponents towards the ledge without much commitment. When you fastfall a DJC NAir it also beats ccing clean (edit) at mid percentages against heavies (/edit) (forces a knockdown), although I didn't think of that before and usually fell back to spamming Magnet against ccing opponents. In particular DJC NAir feels like it fits better into a Magnet/DJC FAir neutral than sh NAir.

Made a 3.5 TAS :

YO

I LOVE YOU