Lucas General Discussion

[Sur Fartsalot]

It's ok if you're too embarrassed to show yourself getting bopped. We understand.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

What are good out of shield options for lucas?

 

[PK Tripping]

Basically throw out a magnet. If it misses, you can wavedash out almost immediately. If it hits, wait a split second, then wavedash out. Obviously it can be jump cancelled so you can do other cool things like magnet -> grab, aerial magnet* -> aerial attack, magnet -> jump -> magnet, etc

*aerial magnets work better to a DJC aerial attack as the added hitlag on magnet makes it harder to follow up on opponents with the 3 frames jump squat plus this hitlag and the extra frame to pull out a double jump / DJC. Practicing in the lab earlier I still found it very difficult to land magnet -> DJC aerial attacks, whereas aerial magnet -> DJC aerial attack was much easier.

Is there any technical difference between aerial magnet and grounded magnet? Other than the given of one being in the air?

 

[D e l t a]

Is there any technical difference between aerial magnet and grounded magnet? Other than the given of one being in the air?

You don't have to wait for the jump squat frames with an aerial magnet. Therefore the time that you can jump cancel with an aerial magnet is faster. Jumping in the air is instant, jumping on the ground has a few frames delay before you become airborne.

 

[D e l t a]

What are good out of shield options for lucas?

OoS options are more based on the situation. Only 2 good DJC aerials are Fair/Uair. For the other aerials OoS, make sure to release shield as you may know, otherwise rope snake will come out. Dair OoS can be good sometimes, Fair / Uair cover a wide angle, Nair is great for attacking the enemy if they try CCing after their attack. I use Nair OoS occasionally.

WD OoS imo is better than rolling away. It's also very useful for smash attacks on shield. Marth/Roy players who enjoy their Fsmash's can get punished handily with WD OoS -> grab / aerial. I prefer grab as they will most times shield after smashes on shield and it can't be CCd.

A cool OoS option I thought of a while back is PKF OoS. It covers a good distance and is useful if the enemy hits you with a move that can't be punished OoS normally.

**One thing to note: Fox's upsmash / Mario's Dsmash and other similar moves are mostly safe on shield as you will get knocked back due to low traction and be unable to punish. PKF OoS won't always punish these moves, but can be great for regaining pressure & stage control while forcing the enemy to be defensive.

Cross up rolls can be good if the opponent is carrying lots of momentum in one direction or doesn't know how to deal with someone rolling behind them.

Grab should only be used if the enemy dash attacks your shield. I rarely find any other use for grab OoS.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

 

[Squ0ldrive]

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

A cool OoS option I thought of a while back is PKF OoS. It covers a good distance and is useful if the enemy hits you with a move that can't be punished OoS normally.

PKF OoS? You don't think it's rather punishable?

 

[D e l t a]

PKF OoS? You don't think it's rather punishable?

"useful if the enemy hits you with a move that can't be punished OoS normally"

As I said right below that statement, moves like Fox's upsmash / Mario's Dsmash, most of Squirtle's stuff, etc. will push Lucas away more than attacks such as Fox's jab. In this case, a PKF OoS is something I found useful as an out of shield option to regain stage control / momentum. While at TBH4, a player by the tag "Linko" was helping me deal with Mario stuff like fireballs and dsmash on shield. One of the only things we found to work against Dsmash on shield was a PKF OoS as WD OoS is too slow / won't react Mario in time to pull out an aerial or grab, and all his aerials don't have enough distance to use as a jump -> aerial OoS option.

The actual PKF ice ball will be near the opponent just as their move is ending (Fox Upsmash, Mario Dsmash, etc), so they will either get hit, clank the PKF or trade hits with it, or pull a defensive option such as shield, spot dodge, roll, etc. Generally I have found most people will either get hit or shield the PKF.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

PKF OoS is definitely legit against another character with projectiles, or if you notice they're using attack->buffer roll to get away from your shield a lot (you can catch either roll direction on reaction, too). When it comes to punishing laggy moves, though, I find it's quite risky to go for when you can grab or WD grab instead.

 

[D e l t a]

PKF OoS is definitely legit against another character with projectiles, or if you notice they're using attack->buffer roll to get away from your shield a lot (you can catch either roll direction on reaction, too). When it comes to punishing laggy moves, though, I find it's quite risky to go for when you can grab or WD grab instead.

I agree with most of this. I don't use PKF much against projectile spammers as they'll most likely go for another projectile after hitting my shield. Against those that like to test reactions or tap shield with a light attack then roll away I like using PKF on them. Against certain laggy moves (Marth/Roy Fsmash) I will generally use WD OoS if I'm not delayed in my reaction. Other moves I test how the enemy reacts if I go to WD / grab OoS. Certain times I've punished Fox players trying to Upsmash my shield by using WD OoS if I'm close to frame perfect on my WD OoS. Otherwise, I'll play it safe and revert back to neutral.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

What MU would you like me too play? When I post the videos.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Hmm, well if you play regularly with friends, I suggest they just go for their main, no sense for them to switch to a new character. That would be best. However, if you HAVE to play a CPU, I would suggest fox. Fox is probably the hardest CPU to beat (non-spamming) and actually requires attention to win against him
Plus, a decent amount of tournament goers play as fox, so it would help if you did play against him if you want us to critique your competitive style.

It's ok if you're too embarrassed to show yourself getting bopped. We understand.

If you are too embarrassed you might get creamed, go for a fat, hulking character that's easy to beat (or olimar).

 

[D e l t a]

What MU would you like me too play? When I post the videos.

I honestly don't mind. I love watching Lucas overall.

In particular, I'd like to see vs Zelda, Sheik, FireEmblem, ROB, Squirtle, Falco. Mainly because these are the most problematic MUs for Lucas

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Hmm, well if you play regularly with friends, I suggest they just go for their main, no sense for them to switch to a new character. That would be best. However, if you HAVE to play a CPU, I would suggest fox. Fox is probably the hardest CPU to beat (non-spamming) and actually requires attention to win against him
Plus, a decent amount of tournament goers play as fox, so it would help if you did play against him if you want us to critique your competitive style.


If you are too embarrassed you might get creamed, go for a fat, hulking character that's easy to beat (or olimar).

Dont sleep on olimar!

 

[Squ0ldrive]

I honestly don't mind. I love watching Lucas overall.

In particular, I'd like to see vs Zelda, Sheik, FireEmblem, ROB, Squirtle, Falco. Mainly because these are the most problematic MUs for Lucas

Ok I will do those MUs.

What stage would be far, for most of the MU?

 

[D e l t a]

However, if you HAVE to play a CPU, I would suggest fox. Fox is probably the hardest CPU to beat (non-spamming) and actually requires attention to win against him
Plus, a decent amount of tournament goers play as fox, so it would help if you did play against him if you want us to critique your competitive style.

Lol no as someone who's played the Fox CPU for hours learning the MU, he's definitely not that hard to beat. Unfortunately they don't do Nair/Dair shine pressure. Just laser camps mostly

You want a real CPU challenge? Vs Squirtle or Zelda. They're really good. MK is great at being evasive, but sucks outside of that. They'll help solidify your approaches and make you think twice about your neutral game imo

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Lol no as someone who's played the Fox CPU for hours learning the MU, he's definitely not that hard to beat. Unfortunately they don't do Nair/Dair shine pressure. Just laser camps mostly

You want a real CPU challenge? Vs Squirtle or Zelda. They're really good. MK is great at being evasive, but sucks outside of that. They'll help solidify your approaches and make you think twice about your neutral game imo

Ya squirtle is really hard on my semi poor ness.

I think I am going to try to do every MU.

What stage should I do?

 

[D e l t a]

Idk about every MU. My probably ignorant take on playing certain MUs is that some are super easy and depend on getting your combos off rather than having to worry about anything they can do overall. ie Charizard, Dedede, DK, etc. The main thing in most MUs vs Lucas is avoiding grabs. Half the cast has a CG or amazing combos from throws on him.

For stages pick your best and worst. Let us know which one's you're bad on so we can see how you can improve there. When picking the best, it should be clear why you like the stage so much

Fun fact of the day: the reason I continue Lucas competitively outside of his amazing combo game, is the wavedash. On most stages- SV. PS2, BF, etc the platforms are at a nice height for perfect wavelands. And who doesn't love a clean WD out of magnet into an OU Upsmash?

 

[Squ0ldrive]

I HATE smashville, because like I have said the dam moving platform

I ironicly love FoD, because it is so easy for me to get stage controll.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Idk about every MU.

What is allstar mode for?

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

You want a real CPU challenge? Vs Squirtle or Zelda.

Hmm.. haven't played zelda that much, I'll give her a try As for squirtle, I think the CPU isn't that hard. I personally think he's really predictable. I either Fsmash after he does his up-B, and counter his side-b.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

And who doesn't love a clean WD out of magnet into an OU Upsmash?

By the way, what is OU stand for?

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

What is allstar mode for?

Allstar mode allows you to play against a different character each time. That's what you should probably do

 

[Squ0ldrive]

By the way, what is OU stand for?

OU stands for
offence up

 

[One Approved]

Do you guys have any tips for approaching as Lucas? I've seen DJC PK freeze used as a kind of combo-starter, allowing people to run in, but I'm not sure which options are best aside from this. I feel like I struggle especially if my opponent can easily use projectiles, like Samus or Mario.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Do you guys have any tips for approaching as Lucas? I've seen DJC PK freeze used as a kind of combo-starter, allowing people to run in, but I'm not sure which options are best aside from this. I feel like I struggle especially if my opponent can easily use projectiles, like Samus or Mario.

@ D e l t a has really cool guide, that you should look at.

 

[D e l t a]

@ D e l t a has really cool guide, that you should look at.

Stop, you're making me blush Embarrass
I need to find a way to get that guide pinned...
Also, I swear you guys give me so many good ideas for that guide lol. Gonna create a part to approaches that deal with avoiding projectiles soon

 

[D e l t a]

By the way, what is OU stand for?

OU = offense up. It's the neutral B charge that makes your smash attacks even more insane. And Upsmash then covers up to the height and width of WarioWare's top platform or the Smashville balloon height. It's fantastic to land it.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Stop, you're making me blush Embarrass
I need to find a way to get that guide pinned...
Also, I swear you guys give me so many good ideas for that guide lol. Gonna create a part to approaches that deal with avoiding projectiles soon

Well there is not more better advice I can give. Also take in ancount I am not really good at approaching myself, as you will see tomorrow.

OU = offense up. It's the neutral B charge that makes your smash attacks even more insane. And Upsmash then covers up to the height and width of WarioWare's top platform or the Smashville balloon height. It's fantastic to land it.

Im pretty sure @surfartsalot knows what the neutral speical does. Lol

 

[Scraket]

S+


S
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A

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B+
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B
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| Fixed
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B-
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(Arguable C-Tier gap)

 

[Scraket]

According to Strong Bad's tier list (right above this post) Lucas is B+ tier. Any thoughts about this?

 

[Squ0ldrive]

According to Strong Bad's tier list (right above this post) Lucas is B+ tier. Any thoughts about this?

Where is the spacies?

It seems lucas's placing is almost fair,
There is no way Toon link is higher than Lucas.

 

[Scraket]

Where is the spacies?

It seems lucas's placing is almost fair,
There is no way Toon link is higher than Lucas.

Lol. fixed that error sorry

 

[D e l t a]

Where is the spacies?

It seems lucas's placing is almost fair,
There is no way Toon link is higher than Lucas.

I honestly disagree with some of those placings. Olimar / Jiggs / ICs aren't horrendous, simply under-used. Same goes for half the chars he listed on the bottom. Pikachu wrecks a decent portion of the cast if not going fairly even. He should watch Axe or Anther play Pika. Only thing that sucks is losing the second QAC dash. Other than that, Bair kills well and Utilt combos are great. In addition, Fair / Dsmash link better. Bowser is really good as shown by Deff & DarkBlues, etc etc

Toon Link beats Lucas 55/45 or is even. Luckily 3.5 removed the long lasting Nair on TL which beat Lucas' tether. Projectiles are a pain for Lucas to deal with, and upon hit confirms can die around 90-110% from UpB or most aerials. Lucas has good pressure on TL that is hard for him to escape with slower, low priority attackers and a bad OoS game. Magnet / aerial pressure and PKF can be hard to deal with. Also can kill around 90-110% with smashes and aerials. Both have great setups.

As per MU spread, TL does better against chars that Lucas does not (Marth, Sheik, Zelda) and does just as well if not better against good MUs for Lucas (Charizard, Ivy, Yoshi)

 

[D e l t a]

Lol. fixed that error sorry

LMFAO laughing even harder. Fox is NOWHERE near that good. And after vsing my old roommate's Lucario for months, most MUs aren't amazing for 3.5 version. He only destroys combo heavy / fast fallers (bowser, Zard, Spacies). Against floaties is super hard for Lucario. Not to mention anybody with a great CC like Peach, Sheik, Yoshi. ROB & Roy being S tier is also extremely laughable

 

[Scraket]

Idk man. Fox is the best character in the game imo.
Also Olimar almost certainly the worst character in the game at the moment. And yeah I have no idea why he has pikachu that low

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Toon Link beats Lucas 55/45 or is even. Luckily 3.5 removed the long lasting Nair on TL which beat Lucas' tether. Projectiles are a pain for Lucas to deal with, and upon hit confirms can die around 90-110% from UpB or most aerials. Lucas has good pressure on TL that is hard for him to escape with slower, low priority attackers and a bad OoS game. Magnet / aerial pressure and PKF can be hard to deal with. Also can kill around 90-110% with smashes and aerials. Both have great setups.

As per MU spread, TL does better against chars that Lucas does not (Marth, Sheik, Zelda) and does just as well if not better against good MUs for Lucas (Charizard, Ivy, Yoshi)

Toon link is for sure a hard MU for Lucas.

How does TL do agaist spacies?

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Idk man. Fox is the best character in the game imo.
Also Olimar almost certainly the worst character in the game at the moment. And yeah I have no idea why he has pikachu that low

Fox is not the best char it is wolf just ask HF Neon, Lol

 

[One Approved]

Fox is undoubtedly a powerful character, but putting him alone in S+ tier seems a bit of a stretch to me.

As far as Lucas's placement is concerned, it seems pretty fair to me. He's definitely not as powerful as he was in 3.02, but he didn't get nerfed as hard as some of the other characters did.