Lucas General Discussion

[Badge]

Cheers for all the info Badge, although my skill in terms of telling which frame things come out on and such isn't very good yet. I think I can do v1, or maybe it's v2, I'm still not quite sure. I definitely do a grounded magnet, short hop and then do an airborn magnet. Sometimes I can get them really close to the ground so it seems like Lucas is barely short hopping at all, other times my airborn magnets are at a normal sort of short hop height (visibly above ground).

Nobody can count frames during gameplay, you just have to get a feeling for certain timings. Frame 5 after jumping is the same as for Lucas' wavedashes (if done perfectly) or Wolf's multishines. If you just jump and then downB, this is what you'll get, depending on the timing:
too soon: you jump and no magnet comes out.
too late: you're airborn
right timing: You perform a magnet and go into the grounded stance before the magnet ends

It's sometimes hard to differ between magnets just above the ground (v2) and those that land (v1). What I do is buffer a jump with tap jump to see whether a DJ or a normal jump comes out. If a DJ came out, you downBed on frame 6 or later, otherwise you hit the v1 timing. (you have to time the tap jump input, but it's not really difficult)
If your feet ever don't touch the ground you can forget about continuing to multi magnet and should just DJC aerial out of magnet. Again, I do this with Tap Jump (see below).

I should also mention that multimagnets are relatively hard tech skill, which you shouldn't go for before you have much easier and more important tech like DJC aerials/PKFs down. Most people should just alternate between magnets and aerials, mostly doing grounded magnet->aerial magnet->DJC aerial. It's not realistic to aim for the optimized shield pressure I posted above without extensive training, just find something that you can do and your opponents have a hard time countering. (e.g. I never felt comfortable enough to do the hard shield pressure myself while still maining Lucas, so I'd just wavedash backwards out of magnet most of the time)

I'm having trouble doing the C stick method of this. I can get it sometimes, but the problem is that using tap jump means I accidentally perform an UAir or another aerial. Is this just an issue of me mucking up the timing? Using L to jump can also make DJC NAirs easier, but mucking up the timing (which I'm doing frequently at this point) means performing the NAir at the short hop and also at the double jump, not cancelling it. This might be a good method to attack players at the height that that second jump reaches, but isn't really helpful in a situation where you're going for the DJC but muck it up. And claw-grip NAir is really easy because there's no directional input involved, but again switching to claw grip isn't something I'm too comfortable with atm.

How exactly do you perform your DJC aerials? If you're using the C-Stick for NAirs and get an UAir that means you missed the proper angle on the C-Stick, you should be hitting it at a 45° angle, usually down&to a side (but do whatever feels most comfortable). If you have L set to jump I'd recommend using it for the first jump for DJC aerials (second for DJC PKFs), so your right thump is free to go to the C-Stick while your left hand does all the jumping.
If you don't use the C-Stick for NAirs (have it set to smashes), I'd just go Y->Y->A, because you have to let go before hitting A either way. It's a bit hard to get fast enough this way, which is why I heavily prefer using C-Stick set to attack for DJC NAirs. (if they're even useful enough to be worth it, I wouldn't focus too much on this if you have more important stuff in your game you could be working on.)

Maybe I'll get DJC PKFs and NAirs down with a normal control scheme and a lot of practice and my current one is over-elaborate and unnecessary, idk.

If you're experimenting with control schemes, I found pretty much everything to get much easier once I started double clawing for like 2 or 3 weeks. (what I'm doing here). Before that I had A set to jumping and X/Y to attacking for a while, which I also really liked (you can't do it in Melee, though). L set to jump is pretty common, though, and not as hard to get used to. Control optimization is something all PM-focused players should look into, imo, because you can drastically improve your tech skill without much work at all.

A disadvantage of setting L to jump is that it's one less usable button for other tricks. E.g. I have R (unused trigger) set to taunt for footstools and X (unused jump button) to shield for super easy powershields. If you have both triggers occupied, you have to choose which of those two you'd want to use. Footstools are currently not very widespread, though, and a footstool button may turn out unnecessary.

 

[20PK]

I spent some time in 1/4th speed doing multimags and feel silly now about not understanding v2 - it's simply performing a DJC magnet after a short hopped magnet which you can prelude with a grounded magnet.

My inputs for DJC FAir, BAir and DAir (for UAir I use the input detailed in my last post) are just X + Up on control stick ( to double jump) + C stick direction + R (to L cancel) . I can't get this sort of input to work for NAirs, so I use X + L set to jump + A + R. I also use L to jump for DJC PKFs. I accidentally full hop a bit with L to jump so it'll take me more practice to get used to the inputs. I've been trying the C-Stick'd NAir (with C-stick as attack, double jump using x and tap) but accidentally hitting DAir a lot so I'll have to play around with both ways and see which one works better.

Another disadvantage of this might be wavedash OoS which I recently heard people shielding with L and then wavedashing with R, I'm not sure if this will be a problem since it's just as easy to input shield with R then wavedash with R.

 

[Badge]

I spent some time in 1/4th speed doing multimags and feel silly now about not understanding v2 - it's simply performing a DJC magnet after a short hopped magnet which you can prelude with a grounded magnet.

It's just that, but calling it a sh magnet sounds inaccurate, because you barely leave the ground. The timing of the airborn magnet is very important, because the longer you fall with your followup magnet the longer it takes before you can restart the rotation. It's also not just preluding it with a grounded magnet - what you want to do is make the second airborn magnet land so that it acts as the grounded magnet.
This also just gave me the idea of full jumping before the airborn magnet, which makes v2 better frame-advantage wise, but also harder (you almost have to either claw or have a shoulder button set to jump) and more noticable for the opponent.

My inputs for DJC FAir, BAir and DAir (for UAir I use the input detailed in my last post) are just X + Up on control stick ( to double jump) + C stick direction + R (to L cancel) . I can't get this sort of input to work for NAirs, so I use X + L set to jump + A + R. I also use L to jump for DJC PKFs. I accidentally full hop a bit with L to jump so it'll take me more practice to get used to the inputs. I've been trying the C-Stick'd NAir (with C-stick as attack, double jump using x and tap) but accidentally hitting DAir a lot so I'll have to play around with both ways and see which one works better.[/spoiler]
Ok, sounds good.

 

[D e l t a]

Dang to kill my friends marth at Dreamland is 179% X__X
That chart is without DI right?

with ideal DI and before throwing, unstaled

 

[Badge]

Taking this to general discussion because I love that thread .

Dang to kill my friends marth at Dreamland is 179% X__X
That chart is without DI right?

It's with DI. It's also computer generated, so if you want to know e.g. kill percentages on Marth to the 1% you should test them to be sure. Shouldn't usually be off by more than 3 or 4% in either direction, though, and on average less than that.

He was at very best the lowest, maybe middle of the high tiers. Mostly around upper-mid tier overall. I'd say with the across the board nerfs, Lucas remained at a similar spot on the tier list since nothing extraordinary changed about him other than the ridiculous amount of kill power he had.

3.02 Lucas was ridiculous and not even for the reasons most people complained about. I even cut down on playing him in friendlies because it wasn't fun just spamming buttons until the opponent was dead. The changes to him also were larger than many people seem to think. Independent of how high he is now, because he also got some new stuff and other people were nerfed, here's some of the major nerfs:

• Footstools no longer ignoring shields. Take a look at this thread, if you want to know what exactly I'm talking about. Basically 3.02 Lucas could true-combo a Magnet on shield into any aerial.
• DAir changes: 1/3 longer hitlag, 1/4 more effective SDI and 3 more frames of lag and less bkb on the initial hits. In 3.02 you could semi-infinite an opponent by repeatedly DJC DAiring. It was theoretically possible to SDI out of it, but it was super hard with the modifiers in place and unless you hit multiple perfect SDI inputs in a row or went off the edge Lucas could just follow your SDI on reaction. Lucas players weren't consistent with this yet, but it basically was a 0-death on most of the cast that only offered a very limited amount of interaction. Also see this post for more information. Broken stuff that had to be patched out.
  The changes were also very lazy btw. I had wished for a landing hitbox to prevent the infinite or something to make DAir more interesting in return.
• No ac-window on PKF. I think I'm the only one who used this, so it kinda went under the radar, but this is huge, again. DJC AC PKFs were insane. Like, one iteration took only a few frames longer than Falco firing a Laser and the PKF also became long distance. The technique for this was really hard - a double 1 frame window (got easier now, but also doesn't work the old way) - but once you had it down to just 60-70% or so consistency (that's what I reached towards the end of 3.0) PKF got significantly better.
• Magnet being +4 instead of +7 (into jump each) on shield.
• Recovery.
• UpAir, DTilt changes. This really impacted Lucas' combo game.

3.02 Lucas was also much more optimized (especially by Neon) than 3.5 Lucas. The patch changed so many little things that most of this optimization is invalid now. That may be the number 1 reason Lucas isn't top tier on lists anymore. Still 3.02 Lucas also had tons of tech people knew about, but couldn't implement yet due to skill barriers. DAir infinite, footstools on shield and multimagnets all were just starting to get implemented and DJC AC PKF wasn't even as far as them.

If we're talking about potential, 3.5 Lucas has less than 3.0 Lucas. Other characters may have had even more, but not very many. If we're talking about actual performance, 3.5 Lucas has lost even more.

This isn't to whine about the changes, btw - pretty much all of them were for the better in terms of design* - but to tell people to stop pretending like nothing happened. You can't play 3.5 Lucas like 3.02 Lucas and expect to do equally well as before unless you weren't using the tools Lucas lost. Lucas mains have to develop their meta anew.



*I think some could have been handeled even better and I hate how they turned my hardest earned tech skills into the opposite, but that's all my complaints.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

A bit nooby, but what does SDI mean and what does Ac-window mean? Great way summarization by the way.

 

[D e l t a]

3.02 Lucas was ridiculous and not even for the reasons most people complained about. I even cut down on playing him in friendlies because it wasn't fun just spamming buttons until the opponent was dead. The changes to him also were larger than many people seem to think. Independent of how high he is now, because he also got some new stuff and other people were nerfed, here's some of the major nerfs:

• Footstools no longer ignoring shields. Take a look at this thread, if you want to know what exactly I'm talking about. Basically 3.02 Lucas could true-combo a Magnet on shield into any aerial.
• DAir changes: 1/3 longer hitlag, 1/4 more effective SDI and 3 more frames of lag and less bkb on the initial hits. In 3.02 you could semi-infinite an opponent by repeatedly DJC DAiring. It was theoretically possible to SDI out of it, but it was super hard with the modifiers in place and unless you hit multiple perfect SDI inputs in a row or went of the edge Lucas could just follow your SDI on reaction. Lucas players weren't consistent with this yet, but it basically was a 0-death on most of the cast that only offered a very limited amount of interaction. Also see this post for more information. Broken stuff that had to be patched out.
  The changes were also very lazy btw. I had wished for a landing hitbox to prevent the infinite or something to make DAir more interesting in return.
• No ac-window on PKF. I think I'm the only one who used this, so it kinda went under the radar, but this is huge, again. DJC AC PKFs were insane. Like, one iteration took only a few frames longer than Falco firing a Laser and the PKF also became long distance. The technique for this was really hard - a double 1 frame window (got easier now, but also doesn't work the old way) - but once you had it down to just 60-70% or so consistency (that's what I reached towards the end of 3.0) PKF got significantly better.
• Magnet being +4 instead of +7 (into jump each) on shield.
• Recovery.
• UpAir, DTilt changes. This really impacted Lucas' combo game.

3.02 Lucas was also much more optimized (especially by Neon) than 3.5 Lucas. The patch changed so many little things that most of this optimization is invalid now. That may be the number 1 reason Lucas isn't top tier on lists anymore. Still 3.02 Lucas also had tons of tech people knew about, but couldn't implement yet due to skill barriers. DAir infinite, footstools on shield and multimagnets all were just starting to get implemented and DJC AC PKF wasn't even as far as them.

If we're talking about potential, 3.5 Lucas has less than 3.0 Lucas. Other characters may have had even more, but not very many. If we're talking about actual performance, 3.5 Lucas has lost even more.

This isn't to whine about the changes, btw - pretty much all of them were for the better in terms of design* - but to tell people to stop pretending like nothing happened. You can't play 3.5 Lucas like 3.02 Lucas and expect to do equally well as before unless you weren't using the tools Lucas lost. Lucas mains have to develop their meta anew.



*I think some could have been handeled even better and I hate how they turned my hardest earned tech skills into the opposite, but that's all my complaints.

In terms of tiers and matcups, Lucas plays closely the same as his 3.02 counterpart. In terms of optimization and full skill potential, 3.5 definitely lacks multiple options that were once borderline broken. Personally, I feel that Lucas as a character was not broken, rather there was tech he contained that was borderline game-breaking. The new Uair is actually one of my favorite changes since he can kill floaties with it and it allows for better combos on fast fallers now, since the knockback increased. The AC PKF was something I noticed in 3.5, but until extensive research and looking into your posts, I never knew the specifics. I understood that the longer distance window was super hard to consistently hit and took practice, just never knew about the AC window, which was something I guess I was working towards without even knowing it. 3.02 new window for DJC PKF is drastically easier, yet also less rewarding & focused toward getting an AC window (also bc it doesn't exist now).

The biggest thing I dislike about how PMDT goes about nerfs is how they feel that adding end lag to anything is a "good nerf" because anything too fast or that can be cancelled in any way is broken.

 

[D e l t a]

Another disadvantage of this might be wavedash OoS which I recently heard people shielding with L and then wavedashing with R, I'm not sure if this will be a problem since it's just as easy to input shield with R then wavedash with R.

For myself, I am lucky to have great dexterity in my fingers and be able to perform 95% of the most common to high level tech in this game. That being said, WD OoS with the opposite shoulder bumper is a lot easier and slightly more practical. Say I get hit with an aerial that induces more shield stun than I thought. I go to WD OoS with only the one trigger, I jump, release shield button, then attempt to air dodge, only to find that I attempted to jump while still in shield stun. Now my shield is being dropped which puts me at a disadvantage both frame wise and being vulnerable to an enemy for the time it takes to drop shield & put it back up.

 

[PMMikey]

I'm new to project m and I was wondering what stages are best lucas? I'm assuming lower ceiling stages or just smaller stages in general.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

tbh I think the grab fix and zair landing lag easily rank up there with the major nerfs, and were probably the most well-deserved, too. Now we don't have to worry about all those other nerfs being a moot point design-wise because of grab game's existence.
For the most part I'm perfectly fine with the changes, but I agree they had a lot of impact on the players.

I think a higher angle and/or actual KBG on sweetspot dtilt would help it feel like it had a bit more creative potential. As it is right now I think its only truly unique use is low% knockdowns, beyond that it overlaps with ftilt and jab1/2 too much. Inner dtilt is actually pretty interesting and I wouldn't mind that staying essentially the same, although minor changes could be even more interesting. I'd definitely want to stick with this overall concept rather than a reversion or anything, though. The new speed is amazing and the old dtilt was clunky and led to a lot of dumb chain-stun moments and auto-KO confirms.

Sweetspot utilt is still rather useful at low-medium %s, but is far more situational in combos that actually take place in that range. Likewise, sourspot utilt rarely sees use in combos because it doesn't start being useful until %s where you don't really combo into it or would combo into a KO move/grab/DJC uair/other superior options instead. I'd like to see the sourspot get an increased angle/BKB/KBG so it would actually be something to implement instead of being just an impediment.
Alternatively, IASA could be pushed slightly earlier so that managing to hit the sweetspot would be a little more meaningful in addition to the sourspot not being quite as bad.

I don't like that the looping magnet hits have so much hitlag, but I guess they need to so they aren't auto shield pressure and allow actual SDI. It still feels like they get in the way more than they help, though. I'd take slower looping over the added hitlag any day. The release hitbox obviously can keep its hitlag, since that's the part that matters for shield advantage.

On the others side of the coin, I'm really surprised some of the more extreme things were left in. Dair and OU dsmash still do a little too much damage, imo, and OU usmash hitbox size could still stand to be trimmed down.

 

[20PK]

Really, if we wanted to we could just all play 3.2 and ignore 3.5 - but that'd just be socially pointless. For one, it'd introduce another split in the community, and other character mains that received minor changes wouldn't really be on board. Besides, pretty much everyone plays 3.5 now, sitting in my room and playing 3.2 Lucas against CPUs and reading old threads would just be unhealthy. I'm actually lucky from this perspective that I've been introduced to the competitive scene so late in the game - I don't have that prior pre-3.5 Lucas experience, so I really have no actual salt in adapting to play the new character, since I have nothing to adapt from, only slight annoyance over watching old videos and thinking well damn I wish Lucas could still do that.

Still, I think the reasoning underlying a possible scenario where people just continue to play 3.2 isn't broken - or if it is, then it's at least the same reasoning people use when talking about playing Melee; I like x mechanic of the older game better so I'll continue to play the older game. The difference is the context - Melee isn't a game that's constantly updated like PM, aside from those minor region and release date differences; it's a completely different game. But if the idea is that changing gameplay mechanics to a point that significantly influences competitive strategy, then choosing to play 3.2 over 3.5 is much the same.

 

[20PK]

*I think some could have been handeled even better and I hate how they turned my hardest earned tech skills into the opposite, but that's all my complaints.

Reading some Neon Q&A thread from a month or so ago on Reddit, he mentioned you and him primarily developed old Lucas tech/meta. This is all your fault you know? It's possible if it hadn't been brought out in competitive play then none of it would have been patched out (jks, other players would have found it out eventually if you guys hadn't)

 

[Kipcom]

Well, all we can do now is live with the nerfs they gave our boy. I still think he's a very fun and technical character, and I'm fine with him being somewhat of a more "niche" character in this patch. Makes us seem a little more unique now, kinda like early last year before the whole "Lucas is broken" outbreak happened.

Though they'd have to be really dumb to nerf him harder in any future patches. There's really not much else that could be considered broken about this character, right?


Also, @ Badge have you considered doing any 3.5 Lucas TAS vids? I think it'd be interesting, even if we've already seen Lucas TAS for 3.0 and earlier.

 

[D e l t a]

I'm new to project m and I was wondering what stages are best lucas? I'm assuming lower ceiling stages or just smaller stages in general.

Lucas benefits from almost all stages in some way. I personally find Smashville & PS2 to work the best.

Larger ceilings such as FoD, Battlefield, Green Hill Zone, etc. slightly hinder kill power, but typically have smaller horizontal blast zones if you're better at killing off the sides. Dreamland / FD can be good if you like room to run around and have more open space to work with. There's also enough horizontal distance that you can recover from the blastzone area with a double jump & fresh magnet, or from higher up side blast zone area with just a fresh magnet and UpB / tether.

With smaller stages such as Yoshi's Story, you can be KOd easy and lose the benefit of your long distance recovery, but your moves will kill as early as 70-85% and you can rush down opponents to secure kills without fearing heavy camping.

 

[D e l t a]

@ Kipcom Badge has done a TAS shield pressure and a TAS vs Fox on his YouTube channel as well as some tutorials. Not much other content outside of that. Still pretty interesting to watch them and see Lucas's old max potential and how to integrate some of the tech not nerfed into gameplay.

@ P PsionicSabreur I feel the tether changes removing half of the active frames on standing grab and most of dash grab's active grab frames was slighty overboard. Dash grab didn't need to have enough frames that it beat out non, frame perfect spot dodges, but it stays out forever now and can be punished even harder. Standing grab sometimes goes straight thru the enemy

I agree with some of the suggestions on tilts. Utilt would be nice with an earlier IASA / less end lag. I find low % combos with Utilt sourspot can chain itself like the Spacies Utilts. It's also great against floaties as this will pop them in the air. Sweetspot Utilt kills floaties around 130-150% iirc. Sweetspot Utilt is nearly as good as landing the first hitbox of dash attack on fast fallers like Fox or Falcon. It can do miracles for combos or getting in an OU Upsmash. I just wish there was a faster IASA like you said, so these could chain better

Dtilt is still controversial to me as his 3.02 and 3.5 iterations are both nice upon getting used to. I actually find a better use for 3.5's Dtilt for creating safer pressure, low % combo strings, and high % leading into grab or running aerial. Having a sweetspot / better KBG or at the very least, better BKB and the same KBG similar to Yoshi's Dtilt would be super rad for ledge guards and in neutral / pressure options

Old magnet was interesting and didn't need to have an added 5 frames of hitlag. Maybe 2-4 at most. When compared to shines, this is pretty ridiculous. All they needed to do was tone down the shield damage IMO.

Dair doesn't do that much damage, it can be SDI'd, it was already given 3 frames more end lag. OU Dsmash is hard to hit due to startup, and the 2nd hit rarely connects unless they're bad at SDI'ing away. I love how it has low end lag and I can act out of an accidental Dsmash. OU Upsmash is silly, yes, but still a vital part of Lucas and if nerfed, would have to be done precisely. The hitbox can be a little large at times and lingers a bit, but I feel that startup & endlag are already punishment enough for missing an Upsmash. You sit there like a helpless duck. At lower % on Lucas, I'll just hold down to CC and avoid a big punish other than getting grabbed.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I agree with some of the suggestions on tilts. Utilt would be nice with an earlier IASA / less end lag. I find low % combos with Utilt sourspot can chain itself like the Spacies Utilts. It's also great against floaties as this will pop them in the air. Sweetspot Utilt kills floaties around 130-150% iirc. Sweetspot Utilt is nearly as good as landing the first hitbox of dash attack on fast fallers like Fox or Falcon. It can do miracles for combos or getting in an OU Upsmash. I just wish there was a faster IASA like you said, so these could chain better

Sourspot utilt doesn't really chain into itself at low %s if there's any sort of DI involved (angle is 65 iirc) and at low enough %s where the angle doesn't matter it's usually disadvantageous on hit, frame-wise. I'd rather it actually confirm into other things rather than just chaining into itself. You do have a good point about it not being very different at all from DA in terms of reward.

Dtilt is still controversial to me as his 3.02 and 3.5 iterations are both nice upon getting used to. I actually find a better use for 3.5's Dtilt for creating safer pressure, low % combo strings, and high % leading into grab or running aerial. Having a sweetspot / better KBG or at the very least, better BKB and the same KBG similar to Yoshi's Dtilt would be super rad for ledge guards and in neutral / pressure options

The outer sweetspot hitbox is basically already similar to Yoshi's dtilt (set KB, knockdown angle). It sets up for edgeguards and on-stage tech chases out of pressure situations nicely, but other than working at slightly lower %s it does neither of these better than ftilt or even jab string, and it really doesn't convert into anything on its own, either. I think if it had minor KBG and a slightly higher angle it could still be used in the same general manner, i.e. it would be identical on shields and at low % would still be used for knockdowns, but at higher % than that it could at least see some use in a creative combo or something other than cheesing bad recoveries.

Old magnet was interesting and didn't need to have an added 5 frames of hitlag. Maybe 2-4 at most. When compared to shines, this is pretty ridiculous. All they needed to do was tone down the shield damage IMO.

Naw. Our shield pressure is still really interesting, I'm mostly just finding it hard to adapt to how the new magnet feels. If we had the same hitlag modifiers with the new landing detection and magnet stalling it would almost certainly outclass spacies.

Dair doesn't do that much damage, it can be SDI'd, it was already given 3 frames more end lag.

Dair does 15% between the three hits.
SDI exists as counterplay, but dair already gets you good followups, so why so much damage on top of that?
If I know my opponent consistently misses the SDI and/or the tech, then why would I go for a cool followup if spamming SHFFL dair gets me oodles of damage anyways and will probably still get me an usmash eventually? It's just something I don't think should be encouraged by character design. In my mind, if my opponent misses their SDI, I should naturally want to take the opportunity to go for an optimized punish and let the game move forward, rather than feeling like I'd get the most reward by continually challenging my opponent's reaction time with a single, repetitive interaction.

OU Dsmash is hard to hit due to startup, and the 2nd hit rarely connects unless they're bad at SDI'ing away. I love how it has low end lag and I can act out of an accidental Dsmash.

I admit that it isn't that much of a deal, but it's still just kind of a lot of damage to take for missing SDI. This is especially relevant when you just throw out a dsmash at someone recovering low; if they're trying to SDI inwards for a stage tech they won't really be able to SDI out (although putting them in hitlag for so long probably screws over their tech anyways). Is it necessarily a bad thing that Lucas can pull tech traps like this? Maybe, maybe not, but he probably doesn't need to get quite so much damage with it.
Also see above comments about dair. Say I get an utilt at low-medium % on a semi-fastfaller who doesn't SDI well, why take this rare chance to go for something fancy when I get a full combo's worth of damage via 2 inputs? It's already a decent choice to combo into this move for subtle reasons; the cooldown is pretty low so it's handy for stage positioning, and even w/out OU the damage is still top-notch.
I don't think it needs to be all that much lower, just lowered to the point that it could be considered slightly more on the sub-optimal side compared to a more intricate punish, damage-wise.

OU Upsmash is silly, yes, but still a vital part of Lucas and if nerfed, would have to be done precisely. The hitbox can be a little large at times and lingers a bit, but I feel that startup & endlag are already punishment enough for missing an Upsmash. You sit there like a helpless duck. At lower % on Lucas, I'll just hold down to CC and avoid a big punish other than getting grabbed.

The fact that it is excessive is certainly not vital to Lucas as a character. Normal usmash is plenty useful on its own, the OU power increase alone on such an important move should be well worth it, especially since KOing earlier means you can go for a combo into it at earlier %s, when your opponent doesn't fly as far and you really don't need quite that much range anyways. There can be a size increase (I'm as much a fan of OU usmash on pesky highish% floaties as the next guy), but I really disagree with it being as drastic as it currently is.

Hope I'm not sounding harsh or anything, I appreciate the discussion.

 

[D e l t a]

Hope I'm not sounding harsh or anything, I appreciate the discussion.

Not at all! I love this sort of stuff talking about Lucas and general mechanics in PM. It helps me reach a better understanding as well as form more solid opinions.

Back to the discussion part, your biggest concerns seem to lie with players who are less skilled at certain aspects of higher level gameplay. I'll admit, Dair is hard to SDI out of if you have little practice, the 3rd hit always popping a grounded high % opponent up can be silly, OU / regular Dsmash output & OU Upsmash seem dumb, but these are all things that have been part of his gameplay since the earliest versions I can remember playing (2.1 or something). If we're trying to cater specifically to lower level players, we might as well make every AT super easy to use. As this game is intended for all skill levels with higher level game functions being more apparent at higher skill levels, the enemy should be aware of Lucas' gimmicks by this point in the meta game, especially with the large outbreak of Lucas 'mains' in 3.02. This includes knowing how to SDI and DI properly

With a heavy nerf on the time to charge up OU, the risk/reward for smash attacks is going to be in favor of reward. In the first place, the charge system was based off of uses, and Lucas could store these charges. It was an interesting system despite a few bugs with it. Now it's based on a repeating use on-hit-confirm, to reward accuracy over whiffed smashes.

In referencing the trap at the ledge with Dsmash, damage is fairly irrelevant because the knockback and angle of just one Dsmash alone is enough to kill almost 80% of the cast who are recovering. If the enemy can recover from 1 Dsmash, damage isn't the main concern here, it's their recovery. In neutral / any other time in the game, running into a flubbed Dsmash can be problematic as you'll eat some damage, but this rarely happens often and it's more / less the opponents fault for getting hit.

On shield, only the first hit will connect unless they have low traction and are purposely shield DI'ing inwards toward. Even then, the 2nd hit rarely connects and damage isn't even applicable.
I've only found success in hitting Dsmash outside of ledge guarding when I mess up a Dair string and the opponent goes into shield. At this point, they expect another Dair, see I missed it, and due to Dsmash's higher startup, think that I messed up and go to immediately punish OoS, thereby getting hit. This is the only time I ever get Demash to connect, so the damage doesn't seem like as big a concern. His OU/normal Upsmash damage on the other hand could potentially have 'too much' damage, despite the fact that he sits there for s full second or two after whiffing an Uosmash and it already takes a while before the first active hitbox is out

 

[D e l t a]

Is M2K really that hype?

lolm2k

 

[PMMikey]

Does having tap jump on help with lucas at all?

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Lucas benefits from almost all stages in some way. I personally find Smashville & PS2 to work the best.

Larger ceilings such as FoD, Battlefield, Green Hill Zone, etc. slightly hinder kill power, but typically have smaller horizontal blast zones if you're better at killing off the sides. Dreamland / FD can be good if you like room to run around and have more open space to work with. There's also enough horizontal distance that you can recover from the blastzone area with a double jump & fresh magnet, or from higher up side blast zone area with just a fresh magnet and UpB / tether.

With smaller stages such as Yoshi's Story, you can be KOd easy and lose the benefit of your long distance recovery, but your moves will kill as early as 70-85% and you can rush down opponents to secure kills without fearing heavy camping.

I hate Smashville so much. It's stupid moving platform, gets in the way alot, when I try to grab the edge

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Does having tap jump on help with lucas at all?

It really helps me with DJCing.

 

[Kipcom]

I've already seen all of 8adge's old content. I just think it'd be interesting to see more content from him but with 3.5.

 

[D e l t a]

Tbh Smashville platform is great when you can properly utilize it. The stage is essentially FD with the platform allowing tech chases and interrupting chain grabs. It's at the perfect jump height to get clean wavedashes and approach from different angles. The moving platform also gives Lucas a bonus area to recover on with air dodge -> tether cancel and UpB

 

[20PK]

FD's PKT recovery is better than Smashville's I'd say because of the sides of the stage giving some diagonal momentum or something when you hit yourself into them, so I think the stage is quite different than FD.

 

[Jamwa]

FD's PKT recovery is better than Smashville's

being able to mixup makes SV better for recoveries easily

Lucas' PKT2 can also be aimed any direction, so you can choose how quickly/slowly you ride walls on either stage, its just easier on FD because the walls are big.

 

[20PK]

Oh yeah I agree, SV definitely allows for better overall recovery mixups, I was just talking about that one specific recovery PKT2 onto stage ledge where you can ride the walls.

I've already seen all of 8adge's old content. I just think it'd be interesting to see more content from him but with 3.5.

8adge's old TAS lucas videos are a thing of beauty

 

[Squ0ldrive]

FD's PKT recovery is better than Smashville's I'd say because of the sides of the stage giving some diagonal momentum or something when you hit yourself into them, so I think the stage is quite different than FD.

That is how I feel about it too. Smashvile, I find is alot more unforgiving.

 

[D e l t a]

RIP my dream of playing Pink Fresh on stream again. Especially since I actually improved and felt good about my playing. At least I got to commentate PM dubs with my homie FS | Dark Blues

 

[Squ0ldrive]

RIP my dream of playing Pink Fresh on stream again. Especially since I actually improved and felt good about my playing. At least I got to commentate PM dubs with my homie FS | Dark Blues

What happend?

 

[D e l t a]

I caught him too late. He had M2K right before I went to play him and he wasn't free Saturday / it was chaos getting everything run in time with every setup used for tournament. By the time I could've played him he wouldn't be at his best after getting 2-0'd with a quick 4 stock on Lylat and I already had a 9hr drive back to MI.

Sooo, that kinda sucked. Plus the FS crew left early Sunday so I didn't get to vs Narq either. Which sucks the most especially considering he and I have extremely similar playstyles. Oh well, guess I'll have to find some national in a few months and improve in the meantime.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

I would love to play you someday.

 

[20PK]

Netplay is a thing you know.

 

[D e l t a]

I would love to play you someday.

What state do you live in? If you're in a close region one of us might be able to make the drive out some time. Or if / when I get netplay..

Netplay is a thing you know.

Not having a good computer and dealing with internet slower than 2mbps is also a thing :/

 

[zFrost]

i really need to get my netplay working again, there's a few frames of lag with internet which pisses me off but it's better than bodying cpu's

 

[D e l t a]

i really need to get my netplay working again, there's a few frames of lag with internet which pisses me off but it's better than bodying cpu's

Most of the way I've improved outside of watching endless youtube videos and tournaments, was bodying CPU's haha. I honestly did what PPMD refers to as "shadow boxing," where you avoid the CPU's attacks for 10 seconds, 30 seconds, a minute, 2 minutes, etc. I learned how the CPU and characters in general want to play neutral. It helped me avoid Fox's upsmash at high % as they seem to usually go for it a lot as a CPU, and many Fox's will generally be fishing for the kill as well.

*shrugs* it's better than nothing I guess. I learned the combo weight and what I can do to most of the cast. Plus, in v3.5 CPU's somewhat DI my attacks, so I learn true combos that will almost always work.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

I try to body cpus and I can 4 stock samus,wario but I cant 4 stock fox for some reason. I live on the org coast. So it be a long drive. My lucas is really really bad, It is so bad that I have been afraid of posting videos of him.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

I am thinking of posting of some videos of my lucas for constructive feedback.

What do you guys think?

 

[D e l t a]

I am thinking of posting of some videos of my lucas for constructive feedback.

What do you guys think?

I critique any and all levels of players that choose to send their videos to me.

It could be you wanting to know all or certain aspects about your gameplay, or critiques of another player that you would like to know why and how certain things worked, such as why Neon would use a DJC Uair instead of another Dair, how someone approaches, why this move does / doesn't work sometimes, etc.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

Ok, where do I send the video to?

 

[D e l t a]

If you don't feel like posting directly, you can always send me the link here, or message me for my Facebook/email.