Lucas General Discussion

[Badge]

Does it work on moving platforms too? I don't know it it was my timing but I couldn't get it to work on Smashville or the moving platforms on FoD.

Whether the platform moves vertically or not doesn't matter (up/down of course does matter, but only because it changes its height). Doesn't work on SV, works on Norfair e.g.. The FoD platforms will probably sometimes work, often not (didn't test).

 

[Master WGS]

For the first time in maybe a year, I think the Lucas video thread OP is up-to-date.

 

[Zimflare]

it's faster than even empty landing and much faster than wavelanding (0 frames lag compared to 4 for empty landing and 10 for wavelanding).

Dang I never knew that... lol. Is there a thread for this? The information sounds useful and I want to find out if it is different per character.

 

[Master WGS]

Status update: I've become a lot better with DACUS after just sitting down every night this week messing with it for 10-15 minutes. It is possible, kids.

 

[Jamwa]

I uh, I discovered for myself that Lucas can DJC onto platforms with no lag by timing his DJ correctly whilst you are somewhere inside platforms (works when jumping offstage back onto stage as well if you are right next to the ledge).

I know this probably isn't something new, but I haven't seen people use it from the matches I watch on YouTube.
Is it because it's a 1 frame timing or something? It's pretty crazy being able to jump and instantly grab or w/e instead of having to waveland.

Also quick question regarding DACUS. If I set L to Attacks, is the frame window larger than using the Z button?

 

[Spice]

I uh, I discovered for myself that Lucas can DJC onto platforms with no lag by timing his DJ correctly whilst you are somewhere inside platforms (works when jumping offstage back onto stage as well if you are right next to the ledge).

I know this probably isn't something new, but I haven't seen people use it from the matches I watch on YouTube.
Is it because it's a 1 frame timing or something? It's pretty crazy being able to jump and instantly grab or w/e instead of having to waveland.

Also quick question regarding DACUS. If I set L to Attacks, is the frame window larger than using the Z button?

I believe you are granted one extra frame with L or A or anything set to attack, since Z has a different window for grabs as well. Someone else can explain this better, but you do have one frame more I believe.

 

[Burnsy]

Me and Neon messed around with double jump landing stuff a lot a few versions ago, we were really excited because it was so good, and it was actually a lot easier to use back then, before stage collision detection changed. Being 1 frame and so reaction based due to differences between stages counts against its viability, but dang is it awesome/good/flashy.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Me and Neon messed around with double jump landing stuff a lot a few versions ago, we were really excited because it was so good, and it was actually a lot easier to use back then, before stage collision detection changed. Being 1 frame and so reaction based due to differences between stages counts against its viability, but dang is it awesome/good/flashy.

You know, I was messing with Ness and did it with him and was like "Wow this is pretty easy to do, lemme try it with Lucas" and it's way tougher. He moves up so much faster and a visual cue with it passes you by so quickly. Lucas pls

 

[Clade]

I`m sure this question was asked before but what is the best 2nd for a Lucas mainer? It would be good to have a joker when I`m in real trouble against some bad MU`s

Sry, didn`t know where to ask this :/

 

[Burnsy]

If it were me, I'd say pick Kirby! He's much less aggressive and is a lot better at gimping, so it may cover some matchups. I think he's quite a joker as well. Trolliest character I've ever played.

 

[Spice]

I`m sure this question was asked before but what is the best 2nd for a Lucas mainer? It would be good to have a joker when I`m in real trouble against some bad MU`s

Sry, didn`t know where to ask this :/

My secondary is Diddy, but he was my original main. My troll pick is always King Dedede though.

 

[Master WGS]

Marth feels like he covers a lot of bases for me as a secondary.

 

[Clade]

Kirby is my second anyway. I`ll stay with him

 

[drummaniac28]

Am I the only one who doesn't feel the need to use a secondary? I honestly feel like Lucas can handle every matchup in the game, and I'd rather spend more time practicing Lucas than trying to get another character up to a tournament level. What matchups is everyone having trouble with that they feel the need for a secondary?

 

[X-Rey]

Am I the only one who doesn't feel the need to use a secondary? I honestly feel like Lucas can handle every matchup in the game, and I'd rather spend more time practicing Lucas than trying to get another character up to a tournament level. What matchups is everyone having trouble with that they feel the need for a secondary?

For me, it was going against Sonic and Wolf because they kind of get all in Lucas' face and he can't do anything really until they are done with their combo (Except for if they mess up the combo). You should always stay with your main to keep up your level of play but getting secondaries helps with filling in the gaps that Lucas has becuase he is not perfect.

 

[Master WGS]

I still think Link is Lucas' worst matchup. If there's any character I think is worth picking up a secondary to deal with, right now it's that guy.

 

[drummaniac28]

For me, it was going against Sonic and Wolf because they kind of get all in Lucas' face and he can't do anything really until they are done with their combo (Except for if they mess up the combo). You should always stay with your main to keep up your level of play but getting secondaries helps with filling in the gaps that Lucas has becuase he is not perfect.

I know Lucas isn't perfect, but what I meant was I find it easier to find ways to win as Lucas rather than learning an entirely new character, but I might be biased cause I really only find Lucas fun to play lol. But like I used to have a really rough time against Mario and Spacies, but I eventually learned the matchup and now I can go toe to toe with my city's best Mario and spacies players.

That being said, if someone is willing to put in work in a secondary, I'm pretty sure Roy would cover any matchup that's considered bad for Lucas. I'd play Roy in some matchups if I were better with him, but I still do better with Lucas in them so I'll just stick with going Lucas all the time lol

 

[Master WGS]

I am totally in agreement with these changes.

http://projectmgame.com/en/news/dev-blogpost-3-lucas-recovery-overview

 

[drummaniac28]

I am totally in agreement with these changes.

http://projectmgame.com/en/news/dev-blogpost-3-lucas-recovery-overview

Same. This is exactly what I thought should happen, and the PMBR delivered. Guess we all need to start practicing our PKT2 sweetspotting :D

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Hopefully PKT2 won't be as free to hit, Fox/Falco are practically unhittable without disjoints on their bodies, Ness also has a good hitbox for his PKT2

 

[Jamwa]

The only thing I don't like is relearning the range of tether... I'm going to airdodge and just miss the ledge so much

also if we getup from a tether its the same lag as an usmash rofl

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I feel it's important that Lucas receive a leather jacket and Power Glove in the next update. In addition one of his taunts should have him say "it's so bad." These changes are needed to make him as Rad a Racer as possible.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Hey, can anyone do TAS stuff? I was wondering if you did OU up-smash on someone's shield if you could, in any way, get back to their shield before they got out hitstun. This would be assuming that you slide off the stage

 

[Kipcom]

Can we talk about how @NeonApophis is going IN at Low Tier City 2?

 

[Jamwa]

How many frames does OU have? its not in the frame data thread and I'd like to figure out how many frames there is compared to spawn invincibility (is the spawn invincibility 120 frames? i forgets)
http://gfycat.com/SomeParallelAlbino
is this a bug?

 

[Une]

goddamn i had no idea Lucas had such good numbers for his aerials on block. I need to start djcing stuff more

 

[phi1ny3]

What's the best way to DI out of Lucas' dair?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

What's the best way to DI out of Lucas' dair?

When you're on the ground you hold down on the C-Stick and hit Left/Right on the control stick for SDI, you will get floored. In the air I believe it's Up or away? I don't know. I'm assuming you're talking about the former anyway.

 

[phi1ny3]

Referring to both scenarios, but thank you! I got floored a couple of times by the grounded setup, but I've also heard some nasty things about not DIing it properly in the air too.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Using Dair in the Air is an important part of Lucas' combo game because it gets you back on the ground so Lucas can focus on more horizontal combos again so knowing both is useful. SDI to the left or right is probably your best bet because even if you DO get hit by the third hit you want to be able to get as far away from Lucas as you can.

 

[Badge]

Quick overview of Lucas shield pressure in 3.5:

move | hits on frame | max shield advantage | notes
Magnet | 5+ | +4 (into jump) | repeating hits hit 8 frames after end of shieldstun; second Magnet in rotation sh->airborn Magnet->DJ->landing Magnet hits on frame 7
FAir | 5 | +0/-2 (sweetspot/sourspot)
NAir | 4 | -4
DAir | 4 |-5 | hits 2&3 hit 3/4 frames after end of shieldstun respectively
UpAir |4 | -1 | takes 5 more frames to land on hit after perfect DJC -> essentially -6
BAir | 12+ | -2/-3 (sweetspot/sourspot)
Jab 1 | 2/3 (near/far) | -10/-9 | +0/+1 into Jab 2
Jab 2 | 8 | -17
DTilt | 3 | -9
Grab | 11 | - | ignores shields (duh!)

Noticeably between 3.0 and 3.5 what I was referring to as Multimagnets v1 and v2 (or grounded and perfect Multimagnets) have somewhat switched roles. The oddity where Magnet takes longer to hit if you land before it does now due to changes to landing detection doesn't occur anymore for a Magnet performed on the first airborn frame after a jump (you land 1 frame later), which makes v1 Multimagnets much better. Due to the changes to to Magnet stalling, the second aerial Magnet in the v2 rotation now also lands faster and thus gets delayed by 2 frames. If done perfectly the difference between the two now is that v1 alway leaves a 4 frame window between shieldstun and Magnet hits, while the window alternates between 5 and 3 frames for v2. Also, as 3.0 Lucas player probably now, v2 is that much harder to do. v1 is also a bit easier now because of the additional hitlag.
Edit: You don't land too soon, but still land if you delay the first airborn magnet by an additional frame. Thus you know have the mixup between v1 (static actable no-hitbox window of 4 frames for opp), old v2 (window +1/-1) and delayed v2 (window +2/-3).
Another Edit: You can still do v2 Multimagnets almost like in 3.0, but you have to full jump or you get a 2 frame delay on the first hitbox of the second magnet and of course they lost shield advantage. Perfectly done v1 has 4 frames where the opponent can act and no hitbox is out during each iteration, v2 has a 5 frame window after the grounded and a 1 frame window after the aerial magnet (which is enough to escape with frame 2 invincible rolls/moves).

Safest bet for default pressure right now is probably grounded Multimagnets (they're also not that hard to do.) Obviously wavedashes backwards for calling hits/if scared. As for mixups, these seem effective:

• Airborn magnet: 1+ frame larger escape window between magnets but opens up most real good mixups. SH it shouldn't be reactable for the opponent until after the followup, because the visual difference is barely noticable even without the shield animations, fullhopped or delayed the difference is much more noticable. Mixups out of airborn magnet:
  • Retreating DJC FAir: Should always hit the sweetspot (-> +0) and hits on the opponent's second actionable frame, i.e. it's super safe. Also hits after a magnet connection depending on percentage.
  • Stationary DJC FAir: Relatively good advantage (depending on which hitbox connects) and also your second fastest option. Good compromise between catching fast options now and preserving advantage.
  • DJC NAir: Catches buffered spotdodges/rolls if done perfectly and also every other oos option (will also also often just keep opponent shieldstunned if they tried to manually act oos). Relatively bad advantage on shield. Can shieldpoke low.
  • DJC UAir: relatively slow, because the opponent is in front of you (will usually hit frame 7 or so, comparable to a magnet in this position), and also usually not that good on shield, because you'll take a while to land unless you ffed very well. Can shieldpoke high, though.
  • Waveland: Similar to grounded WD backwars, but a little bit faster/safer if done correctly.
  • Magnet: Leads back to grounded magnet. If you either used a full jump before the airborn magnet or delayed it to your second airborn frame from a sh the window after an airborn magnet can be significantly smaller than after a grounded magnet, but it's harder to do. Much more lenient than in 3.0 as your second magnet will fall faster and especially so if shorthopped (which is suboptimal.)
  • Hold & land: See below, about the same as for grounded Magnet. Should the opponent be able to react to airborn magnets this becomes more useful.
• JC Grab: Good ol' grab, will hit one frame later than normal grabs oos and thus lose if the opponent timed his grab equally well. Also obviously loses to spotdodge, but beats shield clean.
• DJC Aerials: Comparable to the variations out of an aerial magnet, but they take 1 frame longer (you have to DJ first) and grounded Magnet had given you 3 frames less effective advantage, making them a good deal weaker in this position.
• Holding Magnet: Just holding magnet isn't very good, but as a mixup it can throw of any timing the opponent may have.

To show what I mean with v1/v2 multimagnets:

Multimangets V1

Multimagnets V2

 

[[TIM]]

Wow. Thank you for the shield pressure analysis Badge.

 

[Jamwa]

thanks be to 8adge

 

[20PK]

Apologies in advance as I'm new to the game, but what's the difference between v1 and v2 mags in terms of inputs?

 

[Badge]

Apologies in advance as I'm new to the game, but what's the difference between v1 and v2 mags in terms of inputs?

Timings. In frames, without hitlag, the inputs (the jump after each magnet has to be delayed by 5 frames with hitlag, unstaled):

v1:

0 DownB
1 (magnet starts)
8 jump (release hitbox)
9 (beginning of jumpsquat)
12/0 DownB (last frame of jumpsquat)

v2:

0 DownB
1 (magnet starts)
8 jump, hold (release hitbox)
9 (beginning of jumpsquat)
13 may release jump, DownB (first airborn frame)
14 (airborn magnet starts)
21 jump (release hitbox)
22 DownB (first frame of DJ)
23 (magnet starts)
31/8 jump, hold (release hitbox)

Note that the only input that has to be frame perfect is the magnet after the grounded jump (it's also the main difference between the variations.) All other inputs, if not frame perfect, make your pressure that much less safe, but scale linearily up to a certain point (i.e. 1 frame off->1 frame less advantage).

Worth learning once you're consistent with basic stuff (wavedashes, DJCs, dashdances & general movement etc,) i think is v1 and purposefully delaying your magnet so you get airborn for mixups. As you can see v2 is much harder to get good at because it's such a long sequence of inputs.
In 3.0 v1 was what new Lucas players familiar with spacies would usually try first, but v2 was by far Lucas best shield pressure (guaranteed shield pokes via footstools weren't really pressuring but more ignoring shields), Now the old way of doing v2 (with sh) is probably the least useful variation in terms of going ham on shield, but in return the inputs are a bit more lenient. The new way is again Lucas hardest shield pressure to perform and less useful than v2 in 3.0.

 

[zFrost]

oh the irony that practicing magnet pressure made me able to multi shine with fox in melee

 

[Kipcom]

I actually broke a shield today for the first time as Lucas with Neon's shield pressure.
I always wanted to do that.

gahlike

 

[20PK]

Cheers for all the info Badge, although my skill in terms of telling which frame things come out on and such isn't very good yet. I think I can do v1, or maybe it's v2, I'm still not quite sure. I definitely do a grounded magnet, short hop and then do an airborn magnet. Sometimes I can get them really close to the ground so it seems like Lucas is barely short hopping at all, other times my airborn magnets are at a normal sort of short hop height (visibly above ground).

I can only seem to do two in a row normally, using my thumb to alternate between Y and B, but changing to claw grip using index and middle finger I can do however many in a row. The downside to this is that you can't really DJC these and maintain such quick timing. However, recently I've been experimenting mapping L to jump, which means in claw grip you can mash straight from Y to L to B and maintain that fast back-and-forth finger timing, albeit it's not as easy to get the DJC consistent.

There's no real advantage I think to doing DJC claw-grip multimags an awful lot, except as maybe a mixup - I can't really see a situation where you'd need more than a two or a couple. The main advantage I found in mapping L to jump was in doing DJC PKFs (which I'm still not comfortable with the timing for, albeit I can get them occasionally for a while but then use the timing). I can get these using claw grip and double tapping Y, but I'd rather avoid claw grip if possible, so Y, L and side-B inputs feels much more fluid (a similar input to wavedashing).

Also, in another post Badge mentioned

Switching C-Stick to "Attack" instead of "Smash" makes DJC NAirs much easier. This wasn't much talked about here before, because, again, DJC NAirs weren't used that much during 3.0, but with FAir being nerfed and NAir being easier to SDI, DJC NAirs could become more important. At least trying out that controller-setup might be a good idea (has a few other differences to C-Stick set too Smash, notably other aerials requiring more precise inputs and FTilts instead of FSmashes on C-Stick)

I'm having trouble doing the C stick method of this. I can get it sometimes, but the problem is that using tap jump means I accidentally perform an UAir or another aerial. Is this just an issue of me mucking up the timing? Using L to jump can also make DJC NAirs easier, but mucking up the timing (which I'm doing frequently at this point) means performing the NAir at the short hop and also at the double jump, not cancelling it. This might be a good method to attack players at the height that that second jump reaches, but isn't really helpful in a situation where you're going for the DJC but muck it up. And claw-grip NAir is really easy because there's no directional input involved, but again switching to claw grip isn't something I'm too comfortable with atm.

 

[zFrost]

i use y and tap jump to djc moves with the c stick it allows pretty good control of my movement

 

[20PK]

I should clarify I still have tap jump and x to jump on when I use L to jump that I only use for PKFing, NAirs and DJCing onto platforms. For DAir, BAir and FAir I use the c-stick method. With UAir I can get away with not using the C-Stick somehow, since tap jump means I'm already holding up. So it's like one less input than if I used no C-stick and tap jump on other directional aerials (i.e. DJC DAir like this would be Y + Control Stick Up + Control Stick Down + A + L-Cancel, whereas the UAir is Y + Control Stick Up + A + L Cancel).

Maybe I'll get DJC PKFs and NAirs down with a normal control scheme and a lot of practice and my current one is over-elaborate and unnecessary, idk.