Lucas General Discussion

[Burnsy]

Out of hit stun, you jump, air dodge forward and zair quickly, just like mentioned above. It's pretty useful at mid %s as a surprise move IMO.

I like how people are finally starting to use techniques that I found and posted explanations on multiple times over a year ago.

It doesnt only work with airdodge forward, it boosts you horizontally so you can aordodge left or right and get a boost in that direction. Up and down doesn't boost any more vertically than a normal airdodge, however.

 

[Darb Vader]

Hey guys, I have a noob question. I see people refer to "dair infinites" quite a lot. How does the infinite work? Can't the opponent just tech out of it?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Neon's talking about doing a DJC Dair so that you do only the first hit. It works to a point until they bounce up (This is a pretty ****ing high percent)

It works like > Jump > Jump (with Up) > C-stick Down > L-Cancel and repeat. It works because the first hit 'staggers' them

 

[Kally Wally]

Is that really an infinite? You could probably SDI out until you hit the ledge, right?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

It ends when you reach the ledge but the amount of distance you get is pretty minimal when you DO SDI and you can end with F-smash once you're near the ledge.

 

[Kally Wally]

Wow.

I remember back in 2.5, I believed that Lucas was extremely good, maybe even borderline OP.

I thought the PMBR would be insane to buff him. Maybe I was right?

 

[NeonApophis]

Wow.

I remember back in 2.5, I believed that Lucas was extremely good, maybe even borderline OP.

I thought the PMBR would be insane to buff him. Maybe I was right?

Lucas didn't get buffed all that much. This dair trick would not have been easy to figure out for anyone in the PMBR, and even when I found it I didn't think it was all that great since it's very hard to do consistently. I've been practicing it more, and realizing that it's more useful than I initially though, but you have to do a lot of repetitions to build significant damage with it, and Lucas has guaranteed alternatives after landing the first djc dair that might be better in a lot of situations.

Also, I'm not sure about 2.5 magnet since I hardly played any 2.5, but magnet got massively nerfed between 2.6b and 3.0.

 

[Kally Wally]

The magnet nerf was a good one, it really didn't deserve the extra shield damage. **** was cray cray.

The buffs I'm referring to are his aerials, especially Bair. Like, seriously, does a character like this need a powerful horizontal killer AND a spike, all in one move? Everything about Lucas has always felt... excessive, to me. I realize that he's likely not as insane as I think he is, but after a certain point, I just didn't want to play him anymore. I felt like I could just do a bunch of brainless tech skill stuff against other players around my (admittedly not impressive) skill level, and still live to insane damage thanks to LOLtether and kill easily with LOLgrab into LOLupthrow. I realized that this didn't make me a good player, so I picked someone new (Roy), slowed the **** down, and for the first time since starting to play PM back in 2.5, started to actually learn some fundamentals.

... I think I lost track of my point somewhere along the way. Not trying to diss Lucas players, y'all are cool, but man this character leaves such a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Playing against bad players, I can understand why you'd say something like "LOLtether" If it makes you feel better, on the plus side his Bair doesn't spike at every point during the move or come out in one frame.

One day people will have the chance to learn the matchups against Lucas and they will stop complaining about him.

Also, lol at brainless tech skill.

 

[alphabattack]

What is Lucas' worst Matchup? I find that I get pretty crushed by Falco, but I figure that is just cause he is a spacie.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Spacies are probably the worst ones for Lucas, I've played against all three a little bit and it's definitely tough.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Guys... How do you keep everything in mind when it comes to options? A lot of the time I default to easier stuff (PKF, DACUS) when I draw a blank/can't get myself to do the better option (Double Jump Cancel with Tap Jump, Short Hop Magnet fade away Fair) I'm having a seriously hard time with it and it's way frustrating.

 

[Fluxx]

I don't know if this is similar to what Yars is saying, but I'm having trouble implementing Psi Magnet in general into my gameplay, it feels like it slows me down a ton and I usually don't hit when I use it. Any tips?

 

[G13_Flux]

i find that a good thing is to be aware of what defenses will counter your approach options. for instance, approaching with fair or a magnet for shield pressure will easily take care of a shield happy opponent. on the other hand, maybe the person you are facing is roy, marth, ike, GW, or someone else that can counter a lot of your good shield pressure approaches by purely outranging and out prioritizing you. in this case, you might want to resort to DD punishes, or PKF. maybe your opponent is ness, that has no trouble jumping over PKF and throwing out pk fires, and mixing in fair to approach from above. maybe here, you need something quick with some range to get under him, such as a dash attack or a DACUS, or maybe you use some magnet tricks to help counter the pk fire, and then you can DJC out of it if he tries to challenge you.

I find that its really all a game of rock paper scissors. you have to be aware of you options in neutral in relation to your opponents options that can counter you. That might help you to decide which options are best to mix in as approaches. it probably wouldnt be useful to try and mix your opponent up by going in for shield pressure with magnet/fair, and then the next time switching to a grab. your opponent at that point would be conditioned against shielding (since you just showed them a shield pressure approach). they would likely remember that and try DDing for your grab approach, and punish you. instead, if you did a PKF, their DD would not really have served any purpose but to probably force them to the edge, put them in their shield, or put them in the air. all favorable things for you. Obviously the mindgames go deeper than that, but thats the general approach.

TLDR; rock paper scissors shoot. know which of your options fall into the rock category, which fall under paper, and the ones classified as scissors (in relation to the specific character you are fighting of course).

 

[ShadowGanon]

Could some of you knowledgeable Lucas mains come on over and help us with this stage counterpick thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-counterpick-chart.353842/#post-16681821

We're trying to compile a chart of what stages are good/bad for certain characters.

 

[Darb Vader]

is our jumpstart 4 or 5 frames? I have seen both numbers thrown around a lot.

 

[Burnsy]

It's 4 frames

*Edit*

To clarify based on the responses of posters below me and 8adge's info, it is set internally at 5 frames so that DACUS is possible, then this is adjusted down by frame speed modifiers so that in-game, it only takes 4 frames to complete. Sometimes I really do know my stuff guys, lol.

 

[Darb Vader]

thanks much.

 

[210stuna]

What is jump start?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Before you jump there is a quick animation of a squat before your character leaves the ground. After 4 frames you're off the ground with Lucas and can wavedash.

 

[210stuna]

How many frames after that can you input a double jump + PK Freeze?

 

[drummaniac28]

Um Lucas has 5 jump start frames. If he had 4 it would be impossible to DACUS using Z bound to grab.

 

[Nannas]

Jump Start-up Speed Frames
This is the amount of frames it takes for a character to become airborne off the ground.
1-10) Fox/Kirby/Lucario/MetaKnight/Pikachu/IceClimbers/Samus/Sheik/Sonic/ToonLink : 3
11-23) C.Falcon/Diddy/G&W/Luigi/Mario/Marth/Ness/Olimar/Charizard/Squirtle/Roy/ZSS/Wolf : 4
24-37) Donkey Kong/Falco/Ike/Lucas/Mewtwo/Peach/Pit/Ivysaur/Jiggs/ROB/Snake/Wario/Yoshi/Zelda : 5
38-40) DeDeDe/Ganon/Link : 6
41) Bowser : 8

Source:http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/1u57q8/database_project_m_30_database/

 

[Badge]

Lucas effective jumpsquat is 4 frames. Technically it's 5 frames with outside frame speed modifiers on it, which allows DACUS using grab and gives us a 2 frame DACUS-window using attack. For the same reason you'd think his jumpsquat is 5 frames from just looking at the pac (where the above jumpsquat data is taken from). Lucas is the only character that I know of with this anomaly and I also never found the modifiers - I'd guess they're coded somewhere outside his pac.

How many frames after that can you input a double jump + PK Freeze?

Best take a look at this gif, first 4 frames are jumpsquat:

Spoiler

Concise answer to your question: Soonest airborn frame for a DJC PKF where the projectile still comes out without performing a rising PKF to...
... DJ out of a SH: 3 (must PKF on frame 9)
... DJ, then instantly PKF out of a SH: 7
... DJ, then instantly PKF out of a FH: 5

 

[Darb Vader]

You can DACUS with a grab? I DACUS with dash + c-stick (any direction) + smash-up-A and it's a pain without clawing, is there another way?

 

[drummaniac28]

You can DACUS with a grab? I DACUS with dash + c-stick (any direction) + smash-up-A and it's a pain without clawing, is there another way?

You do exactly that but use Z instead of A. The only thing is that it reduces the frame window by 1 so you only have a 1 frame window to do it.

 

[Burnsy]

That's not the only thing. The boost grab and DACUS windows overlap for 1 frame and grab has priority, so if you use a grab button you could accidentally get a dash grab even if your timing is perfect, and you don't want that.

 

[210stuna]

So how do you dash grab on command?
Essentially you could use the other method solely for DACUS, correct?

 

[drummaniac28]

That's not the only thing. The boost grab and DACUS windows overlap for 1 frame and grab has priority, so if you use a grab button you could accidentally get a dash grab even if your timing is perfect, and you don't want that.

So the only way to get a DACUS with 100% consistency is to change controls?

 

[Kally Wally]

Or, you know, claw grip to press A.

 

[Burnsy]

So how do you dash grab on command?
Essentially you could use the other method solely for DACUS, correct?

I'm not sure what you are asking. If it's about Lucas' boost grab, the "boost" he gets is not very significant in length like other, more useful boost grabs. But you can do it anyways if you want. Just dash attack and cancel it with grab immediately, before you even see the animation.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

So... I don't know what it is but fighting against Dedede feels weird. You can take advantage of his size like other Big Bodies, but his movement is much more erratic with Waddle Toss and he has a GREAT offstage game that's hard to swat away while recovering. I've fought against Dedede twice (Winning one set 2-1 and losing a set to G-reg 1-2) and feel far from comfortable. Any tips here? Is there a Matchup it's comparable to?

 

[drummaniac28]

A guy in my scene mains DDD and I had trouble with the matchup at first, but all I have to say is don't get grabbed.

 

[Inserio]

I don't think I've seen this discussed before, but when using magnet to recover, I've noticed that it's possible to do a wavebounced (or at least the momentum equivalent) magnet during higher flight distances. In the same situation, you can also do a simple b-reversed magnet, in which case it actually pushes you farther away from the ledge. I can't seem to consistently get the controls right for either one, but this could be important during those situations when you need that extra little reach. I'm sure somebody would be better at explaining this @ Badge ?

Just a note: Once your momentum is no longer going away from the stage, this is no longer possible, at least not in the same way.

Edit: Read ahead to see why it can only hurt you and not help you. Still good to know, though.

 

[Badge]

I don't think I've seen this discussed before, but when using magnet to recover, I've noticed that it's possible to do a wavebounced (or at least the momentum equivalent) magnet during higher flight distances. In the same situation, you can also do a simple b-reversed magnet, in which case it actually pushes you farther away from the ledge. I can't seem to consistently get the controls right for either one, but this could be important during those situations when you need that extra little reach. I'm sure somebody would be better at explaining this @ Badge ?

Just a note: Once your momentum is no longer going away from the stage, this is no longer possible, at least not in the same way.

What exactly do you mean? Wavebouncing/b-reversing should only help in terms of recovery distance if you were actively drifting away from the stage (i.e. not knocked outwards), because it doesn't affect knockback momentum. Even if you go far out to gimp with an aerial, drifting towards the stage during the endlag gives you more distance than a b-reverse. I currently don't see how it could help you for distance.

Btw, because I just calculated it: The ideal timing for recovering with magnet is using magnet once you reach maximum vertical air speed (knockback notwithstanding, 13 frames after you start drifting) and then every 33 frames//whenever you reach maximum vertical air speed again.

 

[Droß]

Neon's talking about doing a DJC Dair so that you do only the first hit. It works to a point until they bounce up (This is a pretty ****ing high percent)

It works like > Jump > Jump (with Up) > C-stick Down > L-Cancel and repeat. It works because the first hit 'staggers' them

How high is that percentage exactly? Is it uniform for every character or is it dependent on factors? How precise is the implementation from a frame perspective? I'm looking to master it.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

How high is that percentage exactly? Is it uniform for every character or is it dependent on factors? How precise is the implementation from a frame perspective? I'm looking to master it.

It depends on character as far as I know, @ NeonApophis or @ Badge probably know it much better than me, I only understand Lucas on an intermediate level. As far as the implementation part, all I know is the window is pretty much JUST big enough to do another DJC Dair, you can link F-Smash off first hit of DJC Dair so obviously within that window while taking into consideration both jumps and cancelling with Dair

 

[Badge]

The hitstun induced is directly dependent on the knockback and thus on the opposing character's weight and percentage. Filling the DAir's parameters into the knockback formula gives us a hitstun of (0.4*([total_damage]*34.3/([weight]+100)+56.3)) rounded down. DAir chains stop working once that value is at or above 32, because then the opponent will enter tumble and be knocked away from the ground. For followups, the effective hitstun is reduced by 1, because hitlag counts as the first frame of hitstun.

A frame perfect iteration of DJC DAir takes 4+1+3+1+9=18 frames (19 without the fastfall) and consists of 5 inputs: Jump, DJ, DAir, l-cancel, fastfall. Any frames above 19 the opponent is in hitstun (counting hitlag) are your margin of error, that can be divided across these inputs for different effects. In detail:

• Jump: 1:1 ratio of input error to frames lost, 1 frame window for a perfect execution.
• DJ: Assuming you use Tap Jump for this, you have a 4 frame window.
  Just missing this window will loose only loose you 1-2 frames per error frame assuming otherwise perfect execution, but as the fastfall timing depends on both the DJ timing and the aerial timing, you should better just hit the (pretty large) 4 frame window.
• DAir: 2-frame window with a 1:1 ratio of input error to frames lost, 1 frame window for perfect execution.
  With frame perfect fastfalls, you have a larger window where 1 frame of input error leads to just 1 frame lost, but with frame perfect fastfalls you wouldn't miss your 2-frame window.
• L-Cancel: Effectively a 3-frame window.
• Fastfall: This one's strange, you should probably not even do it. Not doing it (assuming you hit the 2-frame window for DAir) only costs you 1 frame. With a frame perfect DAir, you have a 2-frame window for the fastfall, but with a DAir off by 1 frame you have a 1-frame window, where being one frame early cancels your DAir.

So, in conclusion: You have a 4-frame window for the DJ, a 3 frame window for the L-Cancel and shouldn't use the fastfall (I guess). Depending on the opponent's percentage and weight, you may have any number of frames as the window for initiating the jump, one of which you can spend on the DAir.
If the error window is large enough, there's also quite a few misexecutions that still work, but going over each of those wouldn't be worth it at all.

Below I included a list of what your window for the followup DAir will be assuming no fastfall (with fastfall that window is increased by 1). A window of 1 would mean you have to be absolutely frame perfect, anything above that is your error margin. As you can see the total window is between 3 and 12 frames. The most interesting number probably is the last one, which indicates when the chain stops working (this is the percentage the opponent has to end up on after the DAir to be knocked up).
For the followup: DJC DAir has a startup of 4+1+3 = 8. If your error window for the next DAir is larger than [followup-startup]-7 you can use that followup. E.g. grab requires a 3 frame window (not counting spotdodge-startup) and FSmash a 7 frame window.

Spoiler: error windows

Edit: Also here's a quick reference whether UpThrow will be able to lead into an assured kill out of a DJC DAir going by the UpThrow kill percentages I calculated in the other thread:

Spoiler: Can UpThrow kill?

 

[Inserio]

What exactly do you mean? Wavebouncing/b-reversing should only help in terms of recovery distance if you were actively drifting away from the stage (i.e. not knocked outwards), because it doesn't affect knockback momentum. Even if you go far out to gimp with an aerial, drifting towards the stage during the endlag gives you more distance than a b-reverse. I currently don't see how it could help you for distance.

Btw, because I just calculated it: The ideal timing for recovering with magnet is using magnet once you reach maximum vertical air speed (knockback notwithstanding, 13 frames after you start drifting) and then every 33 frames//whenever you reach maximum vertical air speed again.

I'll have to keep an eye out to see if it happens again, because I swear I've seen my character get a sudden boost away from the stage after being knocked very far when I magnet out of tumble as soon as I regain control of my character—aka, from knockback.

That timing is pretty cool to know, though my timing of frames in real time are not that solid. Are there any visual cues to know when you hit maximum vertical air speed, or is it just something you can get used to if you start trying to pay attention to it?

 

[Badge]

I'll have to keep an eye out to see if it happens again, because I swear I've seen my character get a sudden boost away from the stage after being knocked very far when I magnet out of tumble as soon as I regain control of my character—aka, from knockback.

Ah, I think I know what you mean. As mentioned above, knockback and movement momentum are tracked independently. You also fall during knockback and magnet stops that fall, making you shoot upwards when using it while still suffering from upwards knockback. If you'd already begun drifting towards the stage and b-reverse magnet, you'll also reverse the horizontal movement you had towards the stage, but not the knockback component, and thus also gain a boost horizontally away from the stage, because you're now both moving and being knocked away from the stage.

What should be taken away from this is that, non-intuitively, you can use DownB to help in your recovery before you're visibly falling. For maximum recovery distance it is ideal to use the first magnet as soon as you have maximum horizontal air speed, which takes 13 frames or about 1/5 of a second. Just holding towards the stage and reacting towards being able to drift with a magnet would be the easiest practical solution. (Of course don't do this, if you're in danger of dieing of the top.)

That timing is pretty cool to know, though my timing of frames in real time are not that solid. Are there any visual cues to know when you hit maximum vertical air speed, or is it just something you can get used to if you start trying to pay attention to it?

I found it very hard to use air speed as a cue for the timing. What worked for me was just taking a metronome, setting it to 109 BPM and then timing my magnets to that.