Pwii
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2014
- Messages
- 105
Is there a 3.6 build available to the public right now?
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Lucas General Discussion
- Thread starter Ishiey
- Start date
20PK
Smash Apprentice
No buffs? Goddamn it.
One Approved
Smash Rookie
I play Mario as a secondary to Lucas. Like DeepVoiceGuy said, Mario's better for camping, and characters I need to camp against are usually the ones I find I have the most problems with. I don't know a lot of specific character matchups (yet) but he appears to be a good compliment to Lucas.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Sheik now that I think about it. She (plus Zelda) take care of many bad MUs due to range or disjoint. More effective camping and better to deal with disjoints. Lucas only struggles with major disjoints or camping like Link. Sheik / Zelda can easily bop FireEmblem and LoZ characters
Build is a private test build my friend let me try out a bit. The changes to Lucas may be on other builds. Only final say is when it becomes released to the public. All I know of is the new taunt. You can find it if you google search. It's based his Mother3 dance
Build is a private test build my friend let me try out a bit. The changes to Lucas may be on other builds. Only final say is when it becomes released to the public. All I know of is the new taunt. You can find it if you google search. It's based his Mother3 dance
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ilysm
sleepy
I figured this would be the thread to sort of introduce myself to the Lucas boards, seeing as I've been skulking about here looking at threads for a while. Hullo! I'm J, a Ness main who co-mains Lucas and only recently got back into the swing of things. I'm what most would consider a total scrub, and my technical knowledge and prowess is mediocre at best. I have little tournament experience due to present circumstances with work and school and location and many other things, but I hope to at least somewhat level up over WiFi when I get some free time (sad, I know, but my computer cannot run Dolphin). But I'm practicing tech skill with both the PK children in the meantime and hope to grow a lot as a player in the near future!
I came also with a question; I've been grinding in training mode for a while trying to improve my consistency with magnet followups and SHFFLing consistently with hitlag for combos and shield pressure. I've seen that there are two methods to get consistent followups when wavedashing out of magnet:
hold for five frames -> jump cancel -> WD
hold for three frames -> release -> WD
Is this info reliable? If so, which do you find yields better results?
(@
D e l t a
the dance taunt is incredible)
I came also with a question; I've been grinding in training mode for a while trying to improve my consistency with magnet followups and SHFFLing consistently with hitlag for combos and shield pressure. I've seen that there are two methods to get consistent followups when wavedashing out of magnet:
hold for five frames -> jump cancel -> WD
hold for three frames -> release -> WD
Is this info reliable? If so, which do you find yields better results?
(@
D e l t a
the dance taunt is incredible)
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Welcome to the thread / boards! Ness & Lucas are super fun and you'll love them the more you get better.Hullo! I'm J, a Ness main who co-mains Lucas
I've seen that there are two methods to get consistent followups when wavedashing out of magnet:
hold for five frames -> jump cancel -> WD
hold for three frames -> release -> WD
Is this info reliable? If so, which do you find yields better results?
(@
To respond to this question is slightly more preference based. In general, you can tap magnet then jump cancel. If you make contact, account for the hitlag. As for shield pressure, the grounded magnet on shield also has to account for jump squat frames before he can use an aerial. The aerial magnet is able to come out faster from a dash and can be jumped out of faster. Nair -> magnet -> Dair/Nair/Fair are my preferred go-to shield pressure options.
Also, I'm glad you enjoy the taunt! I can't wait to disrespect my foes even harder.
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
~moving to the general thread
Whatchu thinking about practicing? I'm looking to find new stuff as well.
Currently practicing:
- Semi-Hax dash (jump ledge under 100% -> magnet -> wavedash back on ledge)
- Ledge guards
- Ike, Squirtle, Roy mainly. Brushing up on spacies & other "easy" ledge guards
- Neutral game
- Re-working my own bad habits and trying to push the metagame
- Extensive combos & punish game
- Trying & exploring new options against all characters
Eisen
Smash Ace
So... I know it's wifi so it's not the best place to judge, but based on recent matches I feel like Lucas is just outclassed now. He was built around having a bad grab but great pressure to make up for it. Now he has a worse grab and okay pressure. His lack of range makes him unable to pose any threats to most of the cast played by anyone competent, and his projectile is a joke.
Everything I throw at opponents gets CC'd, or shieldgrabbed, or it trades, or the opponent's move just plain outranges me. He has very few good CC options himself, and paired with a lack of range I feel he gets pressured extremely easily. His weight is really good for comboing because he falls quickly, but not so quickly it gives the opponent little time to react to your reaction. That allows for some heaving hitting, slower moves to take their time to come out.
Don't even know if I care anymore though. At least in Mario Kart 8 it's clear cut who's good and who isn't. I don't have time or patience for this anymore.
Everything I throw at opponents gets CC'd, or shieldgrabbed, or it trades, or the opponent's move just plain outranges me. He has very few good CC options himself, and paired with a lack of range I feel he gets pressured extremely easily. His weight is really good for comboing because he falls quickly, but not so quickly it gives the opponent little time to react to your reaction. That allows for some heaving hitting, slower moves to take their time to come out.
Don't even know if I care anymore though. At least in Mario Kart 8 it's clear cut who's good and who isn't. I don't have time or patience for this anymore.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I'm sorry you feel this way. I can only half agree with what you are saying.
Bad grab: frame 14 (jump cancelled) which is equivalent to his Fsmash timings. Down throw can be combo'd / chain grabbed with at low % and has a link into kill moves at higher %. Back throw is a great mixup and Upthrow guarantees kills around 130-145% on most characters.
His throws definitely make up for the bad startup on grab. There's multiple setups that link into grab. It shouldn't be used raw in neutral.
Pressure: I'll agree somewhat here. His Nair & magnet are still great for shield pressure, just not free or broken anymore. Dtilt pushes shields back decently and Ftilt is safe on shield when spaced out.
As for pressure in general, I've had opponents get so scared into shield they almost broke it without me even throwing out a move because they feared my tech chase & magnet pressure options.
Lack of range: I'll admit that magnet & fair being his largest, quick / aerial disjoints are considerably much smaller than other chars. Luckily, his frame data is crazy with frame 4-5 aerials and very low end lag. The nerf on Fair is very frustrating and uncalled for, but still a good move.
The projectile isn't free and can be punished. If you land a hit it's a free but confirm and you can easily build up over 50% from ONE HIT. Falco's lasers can also be punished due to super low hitstun and startup time. Be less predictable and space them out. It's safe in neutral if you aren't trying to use it right next to a shielded opponent.
As for being CC'd, shield grabbed, or always trading, here's my advice. Learn your low % combos better. Watch how myself and Neon build up % safely. Nair -> Dtilt if approaching head on is hard to CC. Dtilt is a great CC move being frame 4 with a good hitbox and knockback.
Being shield grabbed shouldn't happen much if at all. Learn to cross up opponents and be safer on your spacing. Your magnets might not be tight in timing either. Dair & Uair are unsafe on shield and Fair is only good with the sweetspot. Nair is almost always safe. I used to get shield grabbed all the time until I finally learned to be safer.
Trading hits means you were too slow getting your attack out. Try baiting the opponent first and making them whiff then punish, or predict their attack and throw out a move before they do.
ilysm
sleepy
So, what is some good advice on how to optimize my OOS game? I play against an opponent who relies on a very aggressive playstyle. Rather than feel me out, the go straight in and just toss out moves forever--quick characters with fast moves like Falco, Wolf, or Falcon appeal to them. They get away with this because my punish game is really nonthreatening. A large part of it is nerves, an issue that plagues me badly and that I am already working on. But say, for instance, they're playing CF and just SH-kneeing, uairing, and nairing back and forth across the stage for a million years. I'm not asking what my game plan is--I'm asking what my best game plan is. My Lucas has made some leaps (for me at least) but I'm still a scrub, any advice would be appreciated!
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Reacting out of shield is all dependent on the opponent.
If they do a dash attack on the front side of your move, almost every single time you can shield grab it.
Some moves are unsafe on shield like a Lucas Dair or tilts & jabs. These moves can only be countered by a fast OoS move like Fair / DJC Uair / Nair / Dair.
It's reliant on spacing as well.
If Marth is super close doing a Fair/Dair, it will be un-safe. If they cross-up on shield, but are still close range, their move will be slightly safer, due to removing Fair & grabs OoS. Cross-ups and max spacing on shield are typically best for being safe with your moves. If the opponent can't cross-up (say you're near the ledge), they'll dash dance around and bait out options due to roll away giving no strategic stage position and spot dodge / roll towards center stage potentially putting you in a worse position.
Don't forget, roll & spot dodge can be good options when not used in bad positions ie. always rolling away or always spot dodging the second you're under pressure. Wave dash out of shield is also VERY under-utilized and one of Lucas' better OoS options as I mention in my guide. Travels a long distance and keeps you mobile. It's less than 6 frames to perfectly jump -> air dodge aka wavedash OoS.
==
If you have a video of your playing and would like me to analyze it, I could possibly give you insight as to when and where you can use different options OoS. Knowing when to act defensively or aggressively is important and very hard to simply say one option or another is always correct. For side practice, look at top players whenever they shield. You can notice when some moves are safe or not by how they react OoS. Commentators will sometimes take note of this and say "oh he could've done a _____ and punished that unsafe ______."
==
Hope this helped. Let me know if you have any other questions.
If they do a dash attack on the front side of your move, almost every single time you can shield grab it.
Some moves are unsafe on shield like a Lucas Dair or tilts & jabs. These moves can only be countered by a fast OoS move like Fair / DJC Uair / Nair / Dair.
It's reliant on spacing as well.
If Marth is super close doing a Fair/Dair, it will be un-safe. If they cross-up on shield, but are still close range, their move will be slightly safer, due to removing Fair & grabs OoS. Cross-ups and max spacing on shield are typically best for being safe with your moves. If the opponent can't cross-up (say you're near the ledge), they'll dash dance around and bait out options due to roll away giving no strategic stage position and spot dodge / roll towards center stage potentially putting you in a worse position.
Don't forget, roll & spot dodge can be good options when not used in bad positions ie. always rolling away or always spot dodging the second you're under pressure. Wave dash out of shield is also VERY under-utilized and one of Lucas' better OoS options as I mention in my guide. Travels a long distance and keeps you mobile. It's less than 6 frames to perfectly jump -> air dodge aka wavedash OoS.
==
If you have a video of your playing and would like me to analyze it, I could possibly give you insight as to when and where you can use different options OoS. Knowing when to act defensively or aggressively is important and very hard to simply say one option or another is always correct. For side practice, look at top players whenever they shield. You can notice when some moves are safe or not by how they react OoS. Commentators will sometimes take note of this and say "oh he could've done a _____ and punished that unsafe ______."
==
Hope this helped. Let me know if you have any other questions.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I regret to inform you all of the decision I have come to. I feel I must share with you the news that after how badly I played today, I no longer will be maining Lucas. He will be a strong secondary of mine, but unless he gets some changes (3.0 Fair / better range) I don't believe I'll be purely maiming him.
I'll still answer any and all Lucas related questions and help all of you out. As for the time being, my skill level and bad habits combined with how easily Lucas gets punished result in some bad losses for me. I hope this doesn't discourage any of you from maiming Lucas still. Lucas is a great character, but I am not able to compete at a great level against certain MUs with the Boy Wonder anymore.
One day, once I get better, I'll return to Lucas in singles. He will still be my main double's character tho. For now, I am not able to play as well as I want to with Lucas. I wish I could stick it out, but he's no longer fun to play, nor am I doing well in singles. Once again, I'm sorry to those few who expected a lot out of me or looked up to my Lucas.
I'll still answer any and all Lucas related questions and help all of you out. As for the time being, my skill level and bad habits combined with how easily Lucas gets punished result in some bad losses for me. I hope this doesn't discourage any of you from maiming Lucas still. Lucas is a great character, but I am not able to compete at a great level against certain MUs with the Boy Wonder anymore.
One day, once I get better, I'll return to Lucas in singles. He will still be my main double's character tho. For now, I am not able to play as well as I want to with Lucas. I wish I could stick it out, but he's no longer fun to play, nor am I doing well in singles. Once again, I'm sorry to those few who expected a lot out of me or looked up to my Lucas.
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who are you switching to?
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Not 100% sure yet
Characters I'm interested in:
Yoshi - testing him the next 2 weeks. I'll see how that goes
Spacies - I play them in Melee. Slightly rusty, but I could get super good with them fast
Snake - he's fun and technical.
Mario - pills
Interesting. Well good luck with whoever you dedicate yourself to and many thanks for contributing so much to the Lucas threads.
ilysm
sleepy
So long, Delta. Your advice has been and will be appreciated, always. BTW, have you tried Wolf out in any significant capacity? His neutral seems to be pretty similar to Lucas's, but better with a spacie flair. Might be a nice transition.
Also, I wanted to start a petition to replace Lucas's ugly green palette swap with a green and yellow striped shirt and brownish hair.
Also, I wanted to start a petition to replace Lucas's ugly green palette swap with a green and yellow striped shirt and brownish hair.
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I'll still be around on the boards, similar to Badge. I follow every new post and I'm still getting updates on every existing post you've seen me on.
Purely maining Lucas just doesn't seem to cut it for me so I need to explore the cast in greater depth. I've tried Wolf, but all I do is Fsmash like Neon lol. I can Nair/Dair shine and be as technical as needed, but he doesn't fit my playstyle. I'm most likely going to the dark side with Fox.
If I can't find better results with different characters, I'll be returning back to Lucas. In the meantime, I just need to try other characters and see how my placings are affected.
Signed.
The green Claus skin is his worst IMO.
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
Oh....
Welp....there goes another one.
We are a dying breed.
PS I've been playing way more Pit recently than Lucas lol.
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I'm only leaving the pack temporarily.... guys plz don't get so sad ;-;
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20PK
Smash Apprentice
nooooo kipcom your lucas is legit my fav, I played so much better after one night of watching some of your matches
ilysm
sleepy
Wow
okay
head count: who in fact is still with us? This is like a Lucaspocalypse or something.
okay
head count: who in fact is still with us? This is like a Lucaspocalypse or something.
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20PK
Smash Apprentice
I'm here for u fam. still terribad but like i mentioned above i've apparently improved a lot lately. Had some godly fast combo filled friendly against a fox the other day.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I have a secondary / Co-main Lucas currently. If Fox / Mario / Snake don't work for me, I'll just put in godly hours into the lab until I'm the best.
Same. I consistently got m2k 0-50 real quick. He was impressed. It was a successful day.
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ilysm
sleepy
*raises hand very very very high*
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Know the basics- wavedash, magdash, DJC PKF, SHFFL aerials. Be spaced out well and learn to approach safely. Use PKF at range and magnet / Nair / Fair up close. Check out my guide for more info on specifics to his approaches and such.
DACUS isn't a primary concern for most Lucas players, just an extra flair & option coverage. I'm one of the only Lucas players currently that knows exactly when to use DACUS for combo finishers, so don't worry about it.
Eisen
Smash Ace
Why the hell would Neon drop Lucas? Like, that's what he's known for. Do we just have Pink Fresh as far as "popular" Lucases go? I swear if Neon switched to Fox...
Regardless, @
D e l t a
why do you know so much about Lucas and why don't I still live in Michigan so we can play/why don't you have PM wifi/why don't I have PM netplay. I feel like two Lucas theorycrafters working together would yield incredible results. Unfortunately, where I lack most is knowing how to apply what I know about Lucas to my opponent's strengths/weaknesses. So really, you'd be like... my senpai?
Regardless, @
D e l t a
why do you know so much about Lucas and why don't I still live in Michigan so we can play/why don't you have PM wifi/why don't I have PM netplay. I feel like two Lucas theorycrafters working together would yield incredible results. Unfortunately, where I lack most is knowing how to apply what I know about Lucas to my opponent's strengths/weaknesses. So really, you'd be like... my senpai?
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Watch the latest interview on AZPM. His Wolf sucks and he wants to improve. His Lucas isn't being dropped, only put on hold for now.
Same for myself, I'm improving my Fox and working on neutral. Too many PKFs and getting punished all the time combined with my ****ty neutral game = a losing record against top players. I'll be back to Lucas once I understand how to play neutral better as Fox
I'm kinda done playing PM as serious as I was (for now), so most of my time is devoted to working out & watching anime rather than practicing for a few hours every night. I still play & keep up, but it's difficult being bad when nobody can help you improve, y'know? That's the bummer about being the only good coach / analyst for PM in MI...Regardless, @
As for my knowledge on the character, I literally just studied this game and everything about Lucas. He's so much fun and I love playing him bc he works the best for me. I watch top Melee players (mainly Fox for approaches, Falco for controlling space), and learn how to apply this to Lucas. If you look at the shoutouts in my guide / read the whole thing (takes maybe half an hour to read & 1-2 hours to comprehend), you'll understand how I learned about Lucas.
I studied and analyzed the knockback on his moves & how I can link into better combos. I went into training mode on slow speed to figure out combo trees for spacies when I realized that getting combos under 50% was extremely hard at first. Practicing what I saw Neon & PF do until I did it as well or better. Basically just understanding his moves at ground level & a slow pace.
Theory crafting isn't everything btw. I know almost everything about Lucas and at the least what it takes to play Lucas at a top level. The only thing I lack is a solid neutral game as every player (including our PR), agrees that I have an extremely proficient punish game. When you can't land a hit, none of this matters.
Also, my internet isn't the best for PM wifi & I don't have a CPU to run dolphin for netplay...
If you want to skype / chat sometime I'd be happy to help you out more. There's a lot to comprehend and I'm lucky enough that I understand many things on a higher level than most people.
==
tl;dr I'll be your senpai (◕‿◕✿)
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TheCandyman
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2014
- Messages
- 140
- 3DS FC
- 3866-8591-8094
How do you do the special Wess dance taunt. Please tell me
20PK
Smash Apprentice
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
Down taunt + A.
ilysm
sleepy
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Not my fault. PMBR is stupid sometimes.
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
so..... I finally got my hands on the beta version. Here's my thoughts on 3.6 & Lucas:
SFX are garbage lol. Not many characters have fitting SFX anymore.... The camera angles feel slightly off, but are bearable. Grab release points don't seem to change Lucas as much as it did for characters like ROB or Falcon.
RIP PKF requiring any advanced tech skill in ANY way, shape, or form.
New Utilt angles seem fine. Not much feels different.
Aerial OU to recover feels like ****. It's like using the magnet to stall for the 3-4th time. ****ing stupid.
Grounded OU IASA frames feel much more justified.
Dtilt IMO feels like it has more knockback and doesn't combo / link into anything as well as 3.5 (could just be me tho).
Everything else appears untouched and acts the same
SFX are garbage lol. Not many characters have fitting SFX anymore.... The camera angles feel slightly off, but are bearable. Grab release points don't seem to change Lucas as much as it did for characters like ROB or Falcon.
RIP PKF requiring any advanced tech skill in ANY way, shape, or form.
New Utilt angles seem fine. Not much feels different.
Aerial OU to recover feels like ****. It's like using the magnet to stall for the 3-4th time. ****ing stupid.
Grounded OU IASA frames feel much more justified.
Dtilt IMO feels like it has more knockback and doesn't combo / link into anything as well as 3.5 (could just be me tho).
Everything else appears untouched and acts the same
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Xcite
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2013
- Messages
- 131
Well to be fair, there's still b-reversing and Wavebounce pkfreezes. And if you couple those up with DJC PKF, you get some tricky zigzag movement. It's pretty cool micro spacing stuff although it's kind of tough. And then there's also the potential of edge cancelled PK freezes but I really don't know much about what can be done with that since I haven't really explored those options.
I agree with you on the OU Charge/Burst. You used to be able to kind of slide in the air and keep pretty good momentum, but Iucas just like plops down.
I agree with you on the OU Charge/Burst. You used to be able to kind of slide in the air and keep pretty good momentum, but Iucas just like plops down.
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