Lucas General Discussion

[D e l t a]

Well to be fair, there's still b-reversing and Wavebounce pkfreezes. And if you couple those up with DJC PKF, you get some tricky zigzag movement. It's pretty cool micro spacing stuff although it's kind of tough. And then there's also the potential of edge cancelled PK freezes but I really don't know much about what can be done with that since I haven't really explored those options.

I agree with you on the OU Charge/Burst. You used to be able to kind of slide in the air and keep pretty good momentum, but Iucas just like plops down.

Not saying the move is garbage, just drastically worse now. I was able to use it effectively against people today, but I can't cover tech away like I used to anymore. I read at least 6 people tech away today, and not 1 of them could I punish with DJC PKF.... So many feels.......

OU burst still decent at recovery stalls / mixups, only it's like a worse Ganon float with half the duration.

Would Lucas be S-tier or A-tier? I think he is A-tier. Agree or disagree?

Maybe B+ or B tier. He's not a top contender, but good enough to win Regionals. He destroys floaties like no other and can easily combo heavies to death. Outside of that, Lucas is bad against swords now (used to be even IMO), still loses to half of Melee top tiers, and gets outranged / out camped by a number of other characters now.

 

[NTHPlayr]

Maybe B+ or B tier. He's not a top contender, but good enough to win Regionals. He destroys floaties like no other and can easily combo heavies to death. Outside of that, Lucas is bad against swords now (used to be even IMO), still loses to half of Melee top tiers, and gets outranged / out camped by a number of other characters now.

Lucas still probably has the right things to be A-tier. Such as his combos, PKF Follow ups, and lots more. (this is late to be saying this) But the changes from 3.02 to 3.5 have made Lucas to be A-tier in my opinion. And in 3.6 beta Lucas hasn't changed drastically. So for me, Lucas is A-tier. Just my opinion. I do agree on how he isn't as good with other characters now.

 

[D e l t a]

The metagame is still early, so correctly placing a character in a constantly developing mod with little solid evidence of his matchups at the highest level is difficult to accurately rank.

In an end all final version of PM with the years of experience that Melee characters have endured, I firmly believe Lucas could be the best character seeing as he has the highest potential & tech skill. Given that his combos can go from 0-death, a projectile used efficiently functions better than Falco's in terms of combos, and multiple setups / options to always choose from, his mixup game will always keep opponents guessing. Despite relatively poor defensive options compared to his offensive capabilities, Lucas plays like Lucario in that he is always in your face or looking for a point where he can get in to your zone and capitalize.

For now, the character is extremely under-developed and not yet optimized to his true potential. This leads me to saying that matchups such as Sheik and Marth will be very troublesome for Lucas for the next year or two at the least.

3 traits that will rapidly make Lucas the best character or close to it IMO

1. Fair becoming a sex kick
   • Added priority & a slightly longer lasting hitbox (1-3 more frames?) means that his approaches & dealing with projectile spam become a ton better.
2. Fair & PKF getting 3.0 range back
   • Lucas was already lacking solid range in 3.0 and with perfect PKF gone / Fair having the same tiny hitbox as 3.5, the entire cast can now get in Lucas' face with greater ease or out-camp him way easier

 

[20PK]

3. - magnet hitlag reduction?

 

[NTHPlayr]

The metagame is still early, so correctly placing a character in a constantly developing mod with little solid evidence of his matchups at the highest level is difficult to accurately rank.

In an end all final version of PM with the years of experience that Melee characters have endured, I firmly believe Lucas could be the best character seeing as he has the highest potential & tech skill. Given that his combos can go from 0-death, a projectile used efficiently functions better than Falco's in terms of combos, and multiple setups / options to always choose from, his mixup game will always keep opponents guessing. Despite relatively poor defensive options compared to his offensive capabilities, Lucas plays like Lucario in that he is always in your face or looking for a point where he can get in to your zone and capitalize.

For now, the character is extremely under-developed and not yet optimized to his true potential. This leads me to saying that matchups such as Sheik and Marth will be very troublesome for Lucas for the next year or two at the least.

3 traits that will rapidly make Lucas the best character or close to it IMO

1. Fair becoming a sex kick
   • Added priority & a longer lasting hitbox means that his approaches & dealing with projectile spam become a ton better
2. Fair & PKF getting 3.0 range back
   • Lucas was already lacking solid range in 3.0 and with perfect PKF gone / Fair having the same tiny hitbox as 3.5, the entire cast can now get in Lucas' face with greater ease or out-camp him way easier

Hopefully Lucas gets a small buff next patch so he can be close to what he was in 3.02(maybe not too much of his 3.02 version, otherwise he would be godlike again).

 

[Kipcom]

Fair as a sex kick?


Yes.

 

[D e l t a]

soooo, Snake is cool & fun like when I picked up Lucas in 3.02 (inb4 nerfs)

using less PKF is great for me / in general

currently not hating the changes as bad (until I use a perfect PKF timing and it doesn't go the grounded distance on reactionary tech chases...)

With having to focus on college over anything else, my tech is dropping (mainly the timings). Somehow, my magnet shield pressure is getting better as a result?? lol ok... thanks PMDT for slowing down magnet

he's still a floaty slayer

edit: that is all... for now.

 

[NTHPlayr]

What is this ''perfect PKF'' that you and others are talking about?

 

[D e l t a]

What is this ''perfect PKF'' that you and others are talking about?

Copypasta from PM website:
-Forward Special
--Fixed a bug with aerial PK Freeze's projectile using the grounded speed/distance if Lucas lands on the same frame the projectile is shot.

In 3.0, Lucas had a 1 frame auto-cancel window on PKF (meaning that it would have 4 frames of normal empty hop landing lag similar to Fox/Falco lasers).

v3.5 removed this auto-cancel window, but left the above mentioned "bug."

v3.6 completely stripped PKF of any strict timings and reduced the skill on PKF to almost nothing. Yes you can still do DJC PKF; however, the distance covered and importance it had with zoning opponents, leading into DACUS, and the main usage I never realized until 3.6 - tech chasing.

• It could rack on chip damage important for Dair -> upsmash, Uthrow, etc. to kill.
  • While Lucas can combo opponents to hell and back, perfect PKF allowed him to sneak in openings that his tiny aerials normally don't allow.
• It was a safe tool in neutral against Falcon, Marth, Fox, etc. that is now very unsafe due to the short distance aerial PKF covers.
  • These characters cover space quickly and have greater threat zones than Lucas. With perfect PKF, Lucas was able to play just outside of these zones and force an approach / bait a response.
• Tech chasing an opponent's tech away with PKF is rare and extremely difficult to do now, even with a solid read
  • The biggest pain I felt was losing a tech chase option. I read many of my enemy's teching away and could throw out a perfect PKF which would hit just as they're ending their tech roll. Now, the aerial PKF will disappear moments before it would hit the opponent.

 

[NTHPlayr]

Copypasta from PM website:
-Forward Special
--Fixed a bug with aerial PK Freeze's projectile using the grounded speed/distance if Lucas lands on the same frame the projectile is shot.

In 3.0, Lucas had a 1 frame auto-cancel window on PKF (meaning that it would have 4 frames of normal empty hop landing lag similar to Fox/Falco lasers).

v3.5 removed this auto-cancel window, but left the above mentioned "bug."

v3.6 completely stripped PKF of any strict timings and reduced the skill on PKF to almost nothing. Yes you can still do DJC PKF; however, the distance covered and importance it had with zoning opponents, leading into DACUS, and the main usage I never realized until 3.6 - tech chasing.

• It could rack on chip damage important for Dair -> upsmash, Uthrow, etc. to kill.
  • While Lucas can combo opponents to hell and back, perfect PKF allowed him to sneak in openings that his tiny aerials normally don't allow.
• It was a safe tool in neutral against Falcon, Marth, Fox, etc. that is now very unsafe due to the short distance aerial PKF covers.
  • These characters cover space quickly and have greater threat zones than Lucas. With perfect PKF, Lucas was able to play just outside of these zones and force an approach / bait a response.
• Tech chasing an opponent's tech away with PKF is rare and extremely difficult to do now, even with a solid read
  • The biggest pain I felt was losing a tech chase option. I read many of my enemy's teching away and could throw out a perfect PKF which would hit just as they're ending their tech roll. Now, the aerial PKF will disappear moments before it would hit the opponent.

For me, now I don't see that many options for using PKF besides using it for combos, leading into a DACUS, and in the neutral game (i don't use it that much though).

 

[D e l t a]

it was more of a niche move, but its uses were important.

 

[NTHPlayr]

it was more of a niche move, but its uses were important.

Agree.

 

[Lens]

I'm sort of surprised that nobody has mentioned this, but the hitlag changes on magnet in 3.5 seem to have had an unintended side effect on how the move interacts with buffered OoS options.

As far as technical details go:
As far as I'm aware, in 3.0, the hitlag advantage caused magnet's weak hit->strong hit to be a complete "blockstring" on shield. It wasn't really of any benefit or issue either way.

In 3.5 and on, the absence of hitlag advantage leaves a 1 frame actionable gap for the defender between the weak and strong hit. The main implication here is that magnet pressure auto-frametraps all buffered OoS options during quickly alternating frame windows.
For most players this can muck up possible counterplay. Consider, for example, standard DJC multimagnet pressure, which alternates between catching buffered rolls (SH->DJC magnet), and barely allowing them (DJC->SH magnet). In order to properly buffer a roll out of this, you would not only need to hit the correct escape window, but also not begin to buffer until the strong hit actually connects.

The important thing to think about here is, how will opponents adapt to this over time? They might wait in shield, risk the difficult escape windows, or buffer spotdodge->CC to tank the damage and knockdown.

On one hand, with buffered rolls being as consistently powerful as they are, a good frame trap is a godsend. Potentially, it could force the defender to think twice before deciding to bail, giving Lucas time to go for the higher-reward mixups that I find make his pressure interesting and unique.
On the other hand, there's also not much choice involved and it might get in the way of shield pokes, magnet grabs, or the other frame traps that exist with magnet DJCs. There are definitely times where I've felt it's a little too good at punishing random mistakes I can't see coming when I'd rather wait for a better conversion.

 

[D e l t a]

bumping thread

back on Lucas - ty secondaries for helping me get better

~6 weeks until i'm back from college and can practice again

probs going to play Melee for a while to deal with spacies cuz nobody plays them in PM

Lucas is so much more fun to me now

 

[ilysm]

Broke a shield yesterday for the first time. Shoutouts to everyone on the boards for helping me reach this milestone moment.

 

[LupinX]

Does Lucas have a jab reset?

 

[Kipcom]

Jab, DJC Dair (try to get the first hit), I've had the tip of magnet jab reset before as well.

 

[LupinX]

@ Kipcom Thanks man

What are the beginner Lucas things to learn when starting off playing him?

 

[Kipcom]

First thing's first, I always like to practice a new character's general movement options. That includes dash dancing, platform movement, and movement options from the ledge (Which is probably his weakest movement option. The kid doesn't have any spectacular options from the ledge). Lucas is a pretty mobile character, so his speed will help in a lot of matchups.

I don't consider myself some kind of frame data nerd or anything, but I'd definitely check out the Lucas frame data thread. It shows off whats safe on shield, what moves come out the fastest, the slowest, hitboxes for each move, etc. It'll give a better understanding of what moves you can throw out on a whim and what moves you should only save for specific situations. It's also faster than doing it yourself with frame advance, lol.

I'mma recommend you learn/pick up Double Jump Cancelling if you already haven't messed around with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z3EJYfHTro Here's a tutorial of how Lucas not only uses DJC, but why he benefits from it as well. There's really nothing else out there that'll give you an understanding of Lucas' DJC as of right now. Sure this vid is from 3.0, but like 99% of it still applies anyway. Learning how to apply short hop aerials with DJC aerials is a great tool to have.

I'd recomming checking out videos of other notable Lucas players (Hyperflame, Neon, Pink Fresh, myself(???)) and see how they go about playing the character and how they execute combos. You'll probably always find some kind of new tactic or combo. Even if what you see isn't new, it might be something that you don't do, and might realize that you'd be better off adding it to your playstyle.

Finally, just gotta practice with whoever you can. This character is actually a lot work if you're trying to get reeeally good/technical with him lol. If you go to tournaments, pull him out in tournament and gain any experience that you can.


Extra stuff: Always Jump-Cancel or pivot your grabs. Dash grab is absolute ass. Practice getting different angles with Up-B so if you're in an awkward position offstage, you'll still be able to reach the ledge if you need to. Practice magnet stuff until you can execute them swiftly. Magnet's good, but it's not safe if you're slow with it. Learning how to play the character without relying on PK Freeze often will help your neutral later down the road. If it's your only tactic in neutral and the opponent knows how to deal with it, it's gonna cost you.

 

[D e l t a]

Adding on to what Kip said since he covered basically everything I would say

Neon and Pink Fresh primarily demonstrates Lucas' high level neutral game. PF's sets generally only have bread n butter (BnB) combos, but he's been known to get clutch combos on his last stock.

Neon & Hyperflame have the best combo game hands down. Each player has a unique style and way they execute combos.

Kip is basically a balance of all those elements in one. He's got some good pressure like Neon, does basic & advanced combos, and has a solid neutral game.

==

You'll find a few other Lucas players if you search YouTube enough. Lesser known names I watch in a slightly ordered list from higher to lower skill level: Narq, Sartron, GP (ghetto *****), ColumW.

Be on the lookout for the few rare times that Lunchables plays Lucas. He does interesting things and it's always exciting to watch.

 

[LupinX]

what is Lucas's combo game against floaties, since the majority of the characters consist of them?

And is there a Lucas skype group out there? I want to discuss with you guys on using Lucas in matchups etc etc

 

[D e l t a]

last i remember, there was a thread discussing the skype group. I don't know much beyond that. Message me on here if you ever want to discuss matchups over skype or whatever.

Against floaties, I typically go for lots of juggles and quick hit strings. Imagine Falcon's combo game on floaties, only less range for Uair juggles, and Fair can choose when to sweetspot or not if you're good enough with spacing. You must be quick and precise on your inputs or else they will jump / nair out, or in Marth's case, counter.

Mastering the timings on fast fall aerials and knowing when to delay a hit based on how much hitstun the enemy is in, are two crucial elements that make combo'ing floaties easy. Utilize uptilt to get the same combo that a DJC Uair would, but with just enough hitstun to make it a combo.

Dthrow is amazing as no DI will lead to Uair / Fair juggles, and DI away still puts them in the air. You have tons of options from no DI on Dthrow. At low % it's a free Utilt / Uair, at mid% or higher (40+) go for Uair and immediately fast fall. If you have an OU charge, no DI on Dthrow -> Upsmash kills around 55% roughly. This means that Dthrow at 0% -> OU Upsmash is half of a floaty character's stock. DI behind leads to a free OU DACUS

Utilize PKF -> aerial. It doesn't lead to grabs most times unless you know the opponent will land right after PKF. They can always jump / counter attack before the PKF's hitstun wears off in time for a grab. You can lead into Fair / Nair much easier however, and around 130%+ these moves will begin to kill. It's the safest and best option to kill floaties at high %.
PKF -> aerial at lower %'s can lead into tons of damage if you get the hit confirm. I've found that sweetspot Fair -> sourspot Fair works best to lead into combos.

 

[LupinX]

There isn't many representation of Lucas in 3.5/6 due to the nerfs. I was watching hyperflame play in Blacklisted and man his combos are crisp

 

[D e l t a]

thank goodness MI is finally getting streams at more locals. I'll be doing my best to get recorded gameplay of myself playing. Although my neutral & spacing needs work, my punish game is definitely up there. Soon as I'm back from college and can get out to tourneys, I'll be sure to share them. I'd say vs floaties are among my better MU's and I have a really easy time combo'ing them.

Lately, Hyperflame's combos have been looking like mine when he's not being flashy. Roughly 3-4 months ago is when he started stepping it up and ever since then, his combos look like moves I string together all the time lol.

 

[zen-bz-]

On the topic of combos, which ones do you guys find the most satisfying to pull off? There are so many out there that feel amazing to do completely so I'm just curious which ones you feel like are an absolute godsend to pull off.

 

[AntSSB]

Dair to Up Smash cause everyone gets salty.

 

[Scraket]

the most satisfying Lucas combos end in DACUS imo. There's nothing better than landing a fair and comboing it into a gigantic electric hexagon of death.

 

[D e l t a]

When I was figuring out floaty combos (bc Zelda is OP when you're bad), I found weak sourspot Fair -> instant DACUS and I practiced it frame perfect. That and Dthrow -> DACUS / Bair spike are nice to hit.

Sometimes landing that one solid Nair feels super good

Or Dair -> charged Fsmash on obnoxious Fox players

 

[MelloGrunty]

first time putting input onto this forum, i wanted to comment on satisfying combos.
earlier today i played friendlies against scraket over netplay (i just realized that's you two above me, sup man LMAO) and he got a combo off that consisted of sweetspot fair to throw me offstage, chase offstage, b-reverse magnet, rising sweetspot bair. so crisp, so clean, so mind-crushingly brutal. i'm still in pain. i got rekt. ;~;

 

[Kipcom]

Dair into up-taunt kick on Fox

:^)

 

[LupinX]

I was practicing Lucas with a friend of mine and I pulled off like 5 DACUS on him due to super reads. He mains space animals so I was extremely happy.

@ zen-bz- How do you put that flair up in here? Like the PM mains and sm4sh 4 mains under the comment?

 

[zen-bz-]

I was practicing Lucas with a friend of mine and I pulled off like 5 DACUS on him due to super reads. He mains space animals so I was extremely happy.

@ zen-bz- How do you put that flair up in here? Like the PM mains and sm4sh 4 mains under the comment?

It's my signature.
You can edit it by clicking on your name, then clicking "signature".
There's a line limit, though, and the sig only appears when you first post in a thread.

 

[LupinX]

Can you guys tell me what are Lucas's BEST matchups vs his WORST matchups? Is he polarizing in any way?

 

[zen-bz-]

Can you guys tell me what are Lucas's BEST matchups vs his WORST matchups? Is he polarizing in any way?

Falco is pretty hard on Lucas. One of his worst MUs IMO.

 

[D e l t a]

Check out the MU discussion thread. I have more in-depth posts there. You can also see how most players rank the MUs. Overall, Lucas puts rewards you for everything you put into him, and he's neither the best nor the worst character. His MUs are all relatively even, meaning that winning games comes down to personal skill in the long run.

Community MU list. Might be slightly out-dated for other characters. I just checked Lucas' MUs and they're all within +/- of what myself and others have agreed on.

Matchup discussion thread. Use that for any and all matchup related questions please. I have linked my post to the matchup #'s I feel are most accurate for Lucas. I try to be as unbiased as possible.

 

[zen-bz-]

Check out the MU discussion thread. I have more in-depth posts there. You can also see how most players rank the MUs. Overall, Lucas puts rewards you for everything you put into him, and he's neither the best nor the worst character. His MUs are all relatively even, meaning that winning games comes down to personal skill in the long run.

To continue off what Delta said, here's a general MU chart.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vinpf09oTN7z_tsu9Muz3U30xKtJvDMdTowpFxbxIKY/edit#gid=0

Keep in mind some MUs aren't filled out, though. Lucas' are all filed out.

 

[LupinX]

To continue off what Delta said, here's a general MU chart.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vinpf09oTN7z_tsu9Muz3U30xKtJvDMdTowpFxbxIKY/edit#gid=0

Keep in mind some MUs aren't filled out, though. Lucas' are all filed out.

Holy cow, He has a lot of even matchups. That I didn't know lol

 

[Tragic Magic]

What are Lucas's best OoS options?

 

[LupinX]

What are Lucas's best OoS options?

WD oos, dair oos, DJC u-air and fair. WD oos is a muuch safer option. He has little defense options unfortunately

 

[Tragic Magic]

WD oos, dair oos, DJC u-air and fair. WD oos is a muuch safer option. He has little defense options unfortunately

Thanks friend!