Lucas BBR MU Chart

[#HBC | J]

Deathgrab does not count in doing the MU for Marth since it is considered illegal in most tournaments.

0.02$

 

[Lukingordex]

Wow that video really helps, thanks Lukin.

@FAE I can't see Marth being -1 O___O
He out speeds, out ranges and has that annoying deathgrab on us.

Without that ******** Chain Grab (is not really a infinite) I can see it being a -1.

I don't see G&W being even either.

G&W dies ridiculous early,maybe because of that.
Then again I don't have much experience. XP

Well,without that ridiculous CG (is not really a infinite),I can see Marth being -1.

G&W dies ridiculous early,maybe because of that,but I can see it -1,not even too.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

I was thinking about the death grab too...

So wait, the grab is illegal in a lot of tournies?

Why isn't it online then :\

Well, in the ruleset I mean.

 

[yoshi8984]

Wait what the deathgrab was illegal in most tournies? Since when? O___O
Also I never said it was infinite. =P

Is DK's cargo release infinite banned as well? O____O

 

[Lukingordex]

Wait what the deathgrab was illegal in most tournies? Since when? O___O
Also I never said it was infinite. =P

Is DK's cargo release infinite banned as well? O____O

I don't said you said it was a infinite. :G

I never heard about these things being banned lol.

 

[#HBC | J]

My bad, seems my head is stuck in the past in terms of CG infinites. ^^" Apologies for that mix-up guys but it is legal it seems after double checking.

Anyways, being -1 could be plausible but the thing is GW does have the tools to counter Lucas and has more than an advantage on the guy. I don't see 0/-1 from my perspective.

 

[Lukingordex]

I'll give my opinion:



-3:

-2:

-1:

0:

+1:

+2:

+3: Solimar (Olimar without pikmins)

+4: Popo without Nana



- I put Sheik at -3 and Sheilda at -2 because Sheilda uses Zelda(duhh),so you can take advantage of Sheilda when he/she (or whatever it is) uses Zelda.

- I love the Pikachu MU

 

[yoshi8984]

Wouldn't it be +4 against SoPo for everyone

 

[Lukingordex]

Ganon is +3 against Sopo.

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

Hmm

Luigi being +1 and Mario being 0 makes sense,Mario's fireballs are much more effective than Luigi's and Mario has his cape to reflect our Pk fire.

Curious to know about your opinion about Yoshi,I think it's only -1,but -2 makes sence because of the DR tricks that annoys Lucas,the CG and the grab release>Upsmash too.

Curious to see your opinion about Samus too,I tough she was +1 for us,but you're FAE,and I need to believe you T_T

Also curious to know about your Bowser opinion,I think it's even,but again,you're FAE.

please don't do that, PLEASE. my matchups are so far off from what's probably the 100% correct matchup chart for lucas, don't believe me because i'm fae plz

Thanks Lukin for the falco vid.

Oh FAE. We need to have a talk sometime alright bro?

kay

Wow that video really helps, thanks Lukin.

@FAE I can't see Marth being -1 O___O
He out speeds, out ranges and has that annoying deathgrab on us.

I don't see G&W being even either.

Then again I don't have much experience. XP

Yeah mostly what J said, it's usually banned offline so I didn't consider it.

I was thinking about the death grab too...

So wait, the grab is illegal in a lot of tournies?

Why isn't it online then :\

Well, in the ruleset I mean.

Wifi doesn't have to keep up with the rules of offline since nothing's like technically official I guess. They can adopt whatever ruleset they want for like ladder. But then again, AllisBrawl's ruleset would be totally different from like, idk, Gamebattles or BFC.

Also no one ask me why I think certain matchups me why certain matchups on my chart are what they are. I never gave much thought to matchup ratios, like I never cared about them, so mine have always been different.

A few other things:
*I think I'd move Samus to even. I mostly got my opinion from playing two amazing Samuses on Wifi (since I never play any) named Muz and EX Justice. Back when Muz played online, he could easily have been at least a Top 2 Samus in the US if he played offline. Everything about his playstyle was near flawless. I'd win like 35% of the matches and I'd play him about every day, his Samus was just the most frustrating character I had ever played. Now when I play EX Justice he reminds me of Muz in his playstyle, just a slightly less skilled version but very good nonetheless. I think when I played Muz I used to think this was a -1 and then I thought that it might be even as long as the Lucas can keep their head clear and not get frustrated. But playing against his Samus it was really hard not to get frustrated. So yeah, I think -1 or 0
*I think Lucas/Zelda will always be +3/-3, there's no changing my mind about that

 

[#HBC | J]

So I was right about the marth thing! Then what the heck did I read....? >_>

Anyways, FAE, you do have the most Zelda experience with Fuujin and playing Mocha at WHOBO and the like.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

"Lucas S.O.S. Brigade"
That title is amazing, I either didn't notice it, or you just got it <. <

I've always been scared of being grabbed by Marth at offline tournies, one of the reason I was discouraged to go...

And Samus should be -1 imo, sure, we have a lot that can hurt her but her camp game on us is really good, even with our bat she can still zair us, keep distance, if we REALLY learned the matchup I'd understand 0, otherwise I'm not sure really.

What do you guys think about Link?

 

[Jamwa]

if we REALLY learned the matchup I'd understand 0, otherwise I'm not sure really.

What do you guys think about Link?

This is why i believe Lucas mains feel the MK mu is -2, because hes common lol

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

The MK MU is probably -2, maybe even -1.

He's not even as hard as he used to be, so many people use him -.-

I just hate Marths, Snake is fun to fight be the grab shenanigans make it irritating.

 

[Lukingordex]

I like to play against Marths,because most of them only know about the Chain Grab and don't know anything else about the MU.

 

[Jamwa]

he has no projectiles
we have 3
whatchagunnadoo

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

At the same time his fair can just destroy PK Fire, his Down B deflects our PKT2

If he didn't have his grab the fight wouldn't be so bad, I normally just spam them and run the whole match.

 

[yoshi8984]

I remember at my 1st tourney, I lost the 1st match of a set (I was Toon Link) so I went Ness 2nd match and he went Marth 2nd match. I'm not sure why, but he didn't ban Brinstar so I went there and won that match. He tried to deathgrab me but I escaped it and only took 15% XD

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

AiB made Brinstar illegal, so I don't play there anymore. It's really stupid, because now you can't really counterpick Marth. It benefitted a lot of character but not the PSI Kids at all imo, Lucas doesn't have any options now, Rainbow Cruise is gone, Brinstars gone, I hate the new stage rules on there.

 

[Lukingordex]

Brinstar is banned on AiB?

A D3 choosed Brinstar as a counterpick against my Yoshi and i didn't know brinstar was not allowed. (Well who cares? I still won XD)

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

I don't even bother trying to play on Brinstar anymore at tourneys. Literally everyone I play bans it against me unless they main MK or have him as a solid second

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Yeah AiB only has 5 starting stages and 5 counterpicks now.

I don't even bother fighting Marths, you can't counterpick anything so why bother.

In other news-

"New Konami Announcements Will “Shake The Industry”"
Apparently on the 30th, their 25th anniversary of Metal Gear Solid they're holding an event and are gonna have an exciting announcement.

Maybe a new MGS game for the Wii U, never played a MGS game but I thought I'd share it with you guys.

 

[#HBC | J]

And Samus should be -1 imo, sure, we have a lot that can hurt her but her camp game on us is really good, even with our bat she can still zair us, keep distance, if we REALLY learned the matchup I'd understand 0, otherwise I'm not sure really.

What do you guys think about Link?

The Samus MU has always been in our favour to being even. Her camp game isn't that good against us and Zair is annoying to deal with, but we kill her so much easier than she can kill us. Plus offstage, we can make life hell for Samus. Even when we get in, we can really mess with her because her close range options are meh. We have the slight advantage against Samus, but an argument could be made for it being even. It isn't, however, in Samus' favor.

Link is our favor to even. It's actually not that easy a MU as it sounds because Link can be annoying.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Yeah, Samus would be 0, Link though, I hate trying to get near him even, but you have to...

So annoying trying to get past his wall of boomerangs, arrows, and bombs but it's not that bad.

 

[#HBC | J]

Patience is key when fighting Link. After a while, it isn't so bad.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

I have a bigger prblem with Tink, once you get in on Link, you can rack up a ton of damage.

 

[#HBC | J]

Tink counters Lucas haha that is just set in stone. He is faster than us, can kill us easier, his camp game is much more annoying than Links and just grah annoying.

The only good thing is that he is light which makes him easier to kill and you can mess with him offstage.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Yeah, that's like all we got against him is his weight. But we're pretty light too. I'd probably pick Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise vs him.

 

[#HBC | J]

When fighting against TL here are some good stages to strike/ban/CP against him:

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Final Destination
Ban: Campy Stages (i.e. FD, Japes, Yoshi's)
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Battlefield

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Thanks, I've researched it already lol. My old doubles partner mains him.

Is Norfair even tourny legal anymore? I wish AiB kept Norfair and Brinstar.

 

[#HBC | J]

Nah Norfair is banned iirc. So is PS2 ;_;

And my bad, Blue.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Oh, it's not a problem, you were just trying to help which is nice!

PS2... I don't like that stage, Norfair all it had was Lava, but you could use that to your advantage, throwing them into it and comboing off it.

I loved it because Marth can't really grab there, well he can but it won't last long.

PS2, the thing about it is it affects your weight, so you can be juggled super easy, and the ice pretty much like... messes with everything lol.

Norfair imo should be legal, but at least Brinstar is.

Maybe next Smash will have customizable stages online, then we can just make like 4 small blocks, so like... we can't get grabbed, and if we do we just get grab released off anyways Marth trying to get to you? PK Thunder him away!

 

[T-block]

J your list doesn't seem THAT different.

The only drastic differences are Kirby, ICs, and Pikachu.

I would say Kirby -1, Pikachu -1, rather than even. I'm not sure how Pikachu-Lucas ended up being +2 to be honest... iirc we went into that saying it was even, but with Mekos and ESAM playing together now, I'm pretty confident we'll have a well-accepted number with the next iteration. You should ask DeLux about ICs-Lucas. I thought evenish at one point too, but he had some pretty convincing arguments IIRC.

Diddy to -1 I completely agree with but we lost that argument with the Diddy panel unfortunately. PT is +2 over Lucas though and I will fight you forever on that

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

I hate the Diddy matchup, our item handling sucks

 

[#HBC | J]

J your list doesn't seem THAT different.

It really isn't, but it is at the same time haha. It's weird.

The only drastic differences are Kirby, ICs, and Pikachu.

I would say Kirby -1

Why so? I could be swayed to a -1 because I have something in my mind about it, but the overall basis of it is that Kirby is pretty even.

Pikachu -1, rather than even. I'm not sure how Pikachu-Lucas ended up being +2 to be honest... iirc we went into that saying it was even, but with Mekos and ESAM playing together now, I'm pretty confident we'll have a well-accepted number with the next iteration.

We actually just did this export very recently and both boards came to agreement on it being Even. The only people who have said it was -1 was Mekos vs. ESAM and ESAM is just freaking amazing but 1 player =/= the entire MU. However, their opinions due weigh greatly as being the best of the characters. Pikachu has always been one of our, if not our best, top tier MU. The thread is still open if you would care to give an opinion on it. (since Krys never rolls around...;_; )

You should ask DeLux about ICs-Lucas. I thought evenish at one point too, but he had some pretty convincing arguments IIRC.

Definitely feels like a conversation that would be fun to have because I've got some words for it being 0. -2 is WAY screwed up and if anything -1 would have been more reasonable.

Diddy to -1 I completely agree with but we lost that argument with the Diddy panel unfortunately.

Boo Diddy Panel. The MU is -1 and deffo not -2 lol. Diddy does not "counter" Lucas, but merely has a slight advantage over him. We'll fix that.

PT is +2 over Lucas though and I will fight you forever on that

Ooooooooh! I get to debate TB in something not mafia? This is going to be insanely fun. You can have Ness as being that much in your favor but the name of this MU is Lucas vs. PT, not Lucas vs. Squirtle. I'm gonna fight you down to -1.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

KIRBY IS -1.

PIKA -1

ICs -1

GG LUCAS NO GOOD MUs AFK

 

[T-block]

When I look at the Lucas-Kirby matchup, I see two characters who have a tough time approaching each other, but with Kirby having a slightly easier time. That's all it comes down to really. Kirby wins in the air thanks to b-air, and is better at approaching a grounded Lucas than Lucas is at approaching a grounded Kirby from the air, with Lucas' grab being a weak option, etc. etc. Plus, they are similar in that they have strong kill moves that are difficult to land against a wary opponent, but the movement on Kirby's f-smash means Kirby has an easier time imo.

Unfortunately, I was exaggerating a bit on PT. I think +1 is actually quite reasonable haha... especially within the context of both of our individual matchup spreads.

 

[#HBC | J]

KIRBY IS -1.

PIKA -1

ICs -1

GG LUCAS NO GOOD MUs AFK

<3 PF haha.

When I look at the Lucas-Kirby matchup, I see two characters who have a tough time approaching each other, but with Kirby having a slightly easier time. That's all it comes down to really. Kirby wins in the air thanks to b-air, and is better at approaching a grounded Lucas than Lucas is at approaching a grounded Kirby from the air, with Lucas' grab being a weak option, etc. etc. Plus, they are similar in that they have strong kill moves that are difficult to land against a wary opponent, but the movement on Kirby's f-smash means Kirby has an easier time imo.

Kirby doesn't approach much easier to due PKF camping and making it obnoxious for Kirby to get in, but besides that I can understand a -1 because I was re-reading this post:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12900006&postcount=13

It is really good summary, but at the same time it underestimates our recovery (which you pointed out yourself in the thread actually haha), but yeah. I can't put it into better words as Timmy did in that post as to my opinion on the Kirby MU.

Unfortunately, I was exaggerating a bit on PT. I think +1 is actually quite reasonable haha... especially within the context of both of our individual matchup spreads.

B'aw, you're no fun. ;_; (J/k haha)

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Kirby is -4, he has fsmash.

 

[Jamwa]

Sigh, J's list was perfect

either we're equally bias or
er'body stoopid