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Lucas BBR MU Chart

rPSIvysaur

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Bit late, but let's discuss some stuff about what we feel is right or wrong about the MU chart that the BBR made for Lucas.

For reference:
{colsp=2}:lucas:
-4: | :dk2:
-3: | :snake: :marth: :sheilda: :sheik:
-2: | :metaknight: :diddy: :wario: :olimar: :dedede: :gw: :toonlink: :kirby2: :pit: :peach: :pt:
-1: | :falco: :popo: :pikachu2: :lucario: :zerosuitsamus: :fox: :rob: :wolf: :ike: :ness2: :yoshi2: :bowser2:
0: | :sonic: :mario2: :samus2:
1: | :luigi2: :falcon: :zelda:
2: | :jigglypuff: :link2: :ganondorf:
 

T-block

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I will try my best to answer any questions - I was heavily involved in the Lucas panel.

I did have to make quite a few concessions with other panels, but overall I'm pretty happy with the spread we got. But what do I know :awesome:
 

Mekos

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lol this ^

Lol I don't know who made that but it's not that good in my opinion. It should be kept simple cuz brawl is a simple game when it comes to singles. Brawl is about who can out plank the other person and force them in to making a move. It doesn't seem like it was made with that mindset.

So basically who has the best planking options against us and pressure game. So for example marth is a worse mm than dk in my opinion(or at least should be even at -4). We can shield pressure DK way better than Marth. They both have the gay grab stuff.

The chart is way off to me. For example, we can out plank g&w depending on the stage and force him to play our game.
ex. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcvcwxehAZQ Mekos vs Gimr
But if that was Battlefield or something there is nothing we can do of course lol.
 

rPSIvysaur

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lol this ^

Lol I don't know who made that but it's not that good in my opinion. It should be kept simple cuz brawl is a simple game when it comes to singles. Brawl is about who can out plank the other person and force them in to making a move. It doesn't seem like it was made with that mindset.

So basically who has the best planking options against us and pressure game. So for example marth is a worse mm than dk in my opinion(or at least should be even at -4). We can shield pressure DK way better than Marth. They both have the gay grab stuff.

The chart is way off to me. For example, we can out plank g&w depending on the stage and force him to play our game.
ex. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcvcwxehAZQ Mekos vs Gimr
But if that was Battlefield or something there is nothing we can do of course lol.
I'm not sure you understand what planking is. ~.~
You didn't even get planked, and there's a LGL in place...

@Auspher - It's a -1, I'll explain later when I have more time.
 

Chuee

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1. Mario 0 while Luigi is +1?
2. Sheik -3?
3. DK -4?
4. Kirby -2 (wtf lol)
My main concerns.
Oh and I think Bowser is 0 ^
 

T-block

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Does DK not infinite Lucas off of a grab? With Marth, Lucas can play towards the edge of the stage to minimize the effect of the grab release. With DK it doesn't matter. Keep in mind that -4 means close to unwinnable... are you taking issue with DK being -4, or with Marth being only -3?

Sheik we originally had at -2, but the Sheik panel brought up some very good points. They claim that a grab for Sheik should lead to death just as reliably as Marth since Sheik can regrab even the air release, and DACUS it as well. Sheik also gets those grabs easier than Marth does.

Mario definitely seems harder than Luigi... I think Mario has an easier time approaching, and Luigi seems like one of those characters that Lucas can camp pretty hard.
 

Chuee

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Does DK not infinite Lucas off of a grab? With Marth, Lucas can play towards the edge of the stage to minimize the effect of the grab release. With DK it doesn't matter. Keep in mind that -4 means close to unwinnable... are you taking issue with DK being -4, or with Marth being only -3?
DK isn't uniwinnable :/

Sheik we originally had at -2, but the Sheik panel brought up some very good points. They claim that a grab for Sheik should lead to death just as reliably as Marth since Sheik can regrab even the air release, and DACUS it as well. Sheik also gets those grabs easier than Marth does.
I read what one of the sheik mains said on it. I don't see how it's death from one grab when he can ftilt regrab only up to 50% and unless DACUS kills us at like 60% I doubt it's one grab death. Comparing it to Marth is silly also. Outside of the GR Marth does much better than Sheik does at fighting Lucas.
Mario definitely seems harder than Luigi... I think Mario has an easier time approaching, and Luigi seems like one of those characters that Lucas can camp pretty hard.
Ehh, not really. Lucas keeps both of them out relatively similar, however Luigi does more than Mario once he gets in.
fdkfdsfdsfdsfsdddd
 

Mekos

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I'm not sure you understand what planking is. ~.~
You didn't even get planked, and there's a LGL in place...

@Auspher - It's a -1, I'll explain later when I have more time.
That's my point silly! lol. I was planking him. I was not approaching and waiting for him to make a move. Then I would punish. I did that in the first two matches
 

rPSIvysaur

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Does DK not infinite Lucas off of a grab? With Marth, Lucas can play towards the edge of the stage to minimize the effect of the grab release. With DK it doesn't matter. Keep in mind that -4 means close to unwinnable... are you taking issue with DK being -4, or with Marth being only -3?

Sheik we originally had at -2, but the Sheik panel brought up some very good points. They claim that a grab for Sheik should lead to death just as reliably as Marth since Sheik can regrab even the air release, and DACUS it as well. Sheik also gets those grabs easier than Marth does.

Mario definitely seems harder than Luigi... I think Mario has an easier time approaching, and Luigi seems like one of those characters that Lucas can camp pretty hard.
In theory, DK's infinite is a true infinite whereas Marth's is not.
In practice, they're both 0-Deaths, as Marth only has to get you to 120+ to kill, which they can easily do off of any grab. (assuming infinites not banned ;-;, here's to hoping the BBRRC makes them banned). So, outside of one grab = death, we also have to deal with the fact that Marth shuts us out wayyyy better than DK does. Marth has way more potent ways to stop our approaches and grab traps than DK does.
I'd put -4 for Marth and -3 for DK.

As for Sheik, if she regrabs the air release, she gets maybe one or two more pummels while we mash. It doesn't lead to death unless we're at death percent, at which point, we should by staying on platforms and what not to avoid the grab to death (keep in mind, that platforms do get in the way... not every MU is played on FD)
-3 on FD is fine, but saying the entire MU is played on FD is wrong. -2 IMO.

Mario is a little harder than Luigi. I agree with Mario as 0 and Luigi as +1.

Edit: and DDD is definitely a +3
 

Chuee

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Do PF/FAE still post here? Maybe it'd be better to hear from them on the DK matchup.
No, they rarely post, but I've heard from PF on it and he says it isn't Lucas' hardest so I doubt he thinks it's -4
@mekos: Planking is on the ledge, what you were talking about is campin.
 

Mekos

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lolol yeah camping.

lololol T-block. Well, I've never lost to a Dk and I've played some good ones. So the it depends on whether they allow Dk to do it(regrab over and over). Some tourneys ban it. lol if u cool with the TO tell him ahead of time lololol. We have a great shield pressure game on DK, It's just that darn grab! :(

But yeah if they allow the grab stuff we are screwed!! Focus on dubs like me lol jk.
 
D

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That grab is so stupid. Lucas does fine against DK otherwise.

It really should be banned.
 

Chuee

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Yeah, it's stupid that they ban D3's infinites and ban Marths (which isn't even an infinite) and not DKs
 

T-block

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Well, keep in mind that this chart was made with the assumption that the infinite would be legal.

I disagree that it should be banned in any case... there's enforceability issues, as well as being consistent with the rest of the ruleset. Marth's grab release on Lucas generally isn't banned either - it's just MLG that decided to, for entertainment purposes.
 

Chuee

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DK's was banned at MLG, I asked Solid Jake.
at all of them?
If so, then I got screwed :'(

Well, keep in mind that this chart was made with the assumption that the infinite would be legal.

I disagree that it should be banned in any case... there's enforceability issues, as well as being consistent with the rest of the ruleset. Marth's grab release on Lucas generally isn't banned either - it's just MLG that decided to, for entertainment purposes.
I don't really think you should ban infinites either, but if you ban one it's kinda dumb to leave another legal.
 

Kole

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I think that D3's and Sheik should be switched or at least D3 at -3
 

prOAPC

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DK is not that bad, and iirc, his grab is slow (11 frames), so he shouldn't be grabbing Lucas that much
Lucas owns him with Nair, an our Dair beats his upB
i remember people saying that Jiggly was our harder MU on the lower tiers
and Snake is Lucas hardest MU
 

Luigi player

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DK is not that bad, and iirc, his grab is slow (11 frames), so he shouldn't be grabbing Lucas that much
Lucas owns him with Nair, an our Dair beats his upB
i remember people saying that Jiggly was our harder MU on the lower tiers
and Snake is Lucas hardest MU
Yeah it's rather slow for a non-tether grab, but it's 8 frames, not 11, lol.

I think DK does really well vs Lucas even without the "infinite". :) (like ~+2)
 

T-block

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Yeah, Chuee, I agree that if one of them is banned they all should. It's hard to categorize though, which is partly why I say don't ban any of them.

I would put DK at -2 for Lucas without the infinite as well, actually. It's still not easy for Lucas. F-tilt and b-air probably wall Lucas pretty hard, no?

Lucas is hard for Jiggs... definitely a solid advantage there.
 

Mekos

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DK is not that bad, and iirc, his grab is slow (11 frames), so he shouldn't be grabbing Lucas that much
Lucas owns him with Nair, an our Dair beat his upB
i remember people saying that Jiggly was our harder MU on the lower tiers
and Snake is Lucas hardest MU
Just try to remember when talking about matchups yer thinking about playing that character at a high level of play(For dk - Will). Not a newb or scrub or dorm roomate or girlfriend lolol

I mean u can't make comments like "he shouldn't be grabbing lucas that much". Remember we have no approach really and have to use quick reactions. With that in mind characters can bait and set up for a grab easily. That comment isn't valid at all. And with the regrab crap all it takes is one grab for us to die. There is 8 minutes in the game. A good Dk can definitely get 3 grabs in in that time frame.

and fyi if yer using lucas and just wrecking the daylights out of a character being all up in there grill, then it is because they don't know the matchup lol. Just keeping it real. Our moves have very low priority. Even our powerful dair gets beat out sometimes :(. Not that's not to discredit your execution or anything.
 

KoozyK

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long time no talk guys :) , okay so i gotta say anf agree with most of yall that dk shouldnt be worst than marth by far.
whens this being reevaluated?
 

prOAPC

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well, true is, i have never played a DK as good as Will, or at least close to him :p some of those stuff i said it according to videos, i remember Irsic killing a DK at 11% with Dair while the DK was recovering with upB
for me, jiggly is easy, but i remember Veril (used to be a Lucas main), when he started to main her, he and his friends from the Jiggly board said she has a huge adv, because the off stage game
but i'm talking about stuff from the '09s lol
 

T-block

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well, true is, i have never played a DK as good as Will, or at least close to him :p some of those stuff i said it according to videos, i remember Irsic killing a DK at 11% with Dair while the DK was recovering with upB
for me, jiggly is easy, but i remember Veril (used to be a Lucas main), when he started to main her, he and his friends from the Jiggly board said she has a huge adv, because the off stage game
but i'm talking about stuff from the '09s lol
Yeah that's old... it's generally agreed Jiggs is a solid advantage for Lucas now.
 

Chuee

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Yeah a good Dk knows how to recover safely. I played Will and he never did a stupid low recover where I could simply just jump down and dair him.
speaking of Will, I heard NL took a game/games off him at one tourney with Lucas. I think it was infinite banned though.
 

Mekos

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lol that reminds me. At MlG NL told me that he lost to cheese cuz he went DK. I wonder if cheese did the infinite? Cuz It was supposed to be banned. Even tho they only said against ness lol.
 

rPSIvysaur

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Wow, they seriously should have asked the refs. I talked with Jake and he said they were banned. lol
 

Chuee

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MLG's handling of infinites was an absolute disaster. I was very upset about that >_>
This
I was infinited on one of the first two stations, pretty sure there was a judge right there watching and nothing was done <.<
 

rPSIvysaur

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3 of the judges weren't smash players, 3 were (Dazwa, Solid Jake, and Pierce). It's likely that that judge was one of the non-smash players, which is why they wouldn't just spot it off.
 

Chuee

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3 of the judges weren't smash players, 3 were (Dazwa, Solid Jake, and Pierce). It's likely that that judge was one of the non-smash players, which is why they wouldn't just spot it off.
I think overswarm was also a judge, but I could've sworn either Pierce or Solid Jake was reffing the station I was on.
 

Kite0692

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In my opinion:

If
is -4 then
should be -4 too.
-3
-1
Wha?? Why -1?
0...maybe 1.
Why is this 0? It should be 1 at least.
Why is it -2??

Thats what I have to say...
 
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