Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[Giygacoal]

Well, the official change list is out, and he isn't much different in 2.6. Side-tilt was changed to essentially carry momentum/combo better, and down-b can be interrupted sooner. Aerial side-b has altered, more vertical range, and there's something different about the new aura sphere animation so that the ball is held inward slightly longer... or something. Up-B and Up-B cancel transition better into fall (animation-wise). There's nothing confirmed to be different about down-air.

 

[Nguz95]

That sounds pretty good to me. down-b was almost useless in 2.5. Now I think all the cool stuff you could do before is not only possible, but manageable. The Up-b thing is pretty big. Up-b cancel into dair or bair is super sweet as a chase option. Overall I feel like he is incredibly powerful now; much more like 2.1.
On another note, how d you utilize aura sphere canceling to it's fullest potential? I have a hard time fitting it into my play.

 

[Giygacoal]

On another note, how d you utilize aura sphere canceling to it's fullest potential? I have a hard time fitting it into my play.

So far, I've used it to quickly end magic series by canceling the end lag of a smash/aerial with the aura sphere, then canceling the aura sphere with the shield button. Then, I quickly set up for another combo. The new Skullgirls character has a similar concept (though obviously more intentional and probably more vital to the general design of the character). All but the last two times she flashes red in this clip, the player is resetting the combo by using her charge stance (without doing much if any charging, sort of like how ASC works). I think Lucario players should experiment with ways to use ASC like this. Maybe we could mix it up with the jab or dash attack to do a bit more damage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F8lreNMdTM

 

[Nguz95]

That's awesome, and it makes a lot of sense. Does that mean it makes smashes safer on shield? Could you conceivably set up massive shield pressure by restarting the magic series continually?

 

[Giygacoal]

Probably not since characters have out-of-shield options and other defensive traits. Also, even without ASC, Lucario seems to particularly have trouble safely starting combos with opponents that crouch cancel. Now that I think of it, it might be cool if the PMBR designers made his down-throw have really low vertical and horizontal knockback so he could easily follow up and juggle the slightly-above floor midair opponent with his jabs and grounded side-b without being punished by crouch cancel. (Though he might already be able to do this sort of thing at low percents with uptilt to ASC. I'll have to check.) Just my $0.02.

 

[Nguz95]

You mean just stringing together utilts with asc? That could definitely work. Utilt is almost fast enough to string on it's own. Couldn't you string utilts and then cancel into spirit bomb? Utilt seems to put them into a really good place for the bomb.

 

[Giygacoal]

No, not repeatedly using utilt. just using it to pop the opponent slightly off the ground to set up a jab combo.

Edit: Did some lab research today. utilt and uthrow are both good juggle starters, though I can't be sure how effective they are until I play with people again. Of course there's the usual stuff to worry about like the opponent's drifting away/falling too fast, though the down-b should help if he/she travels far.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Am I supposed to not jump with Lucario? I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume he's more of a grounded character.

 

[Nausicaa]

Am I supposed to not jump with Lucario? I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume he's more of a grounded character.

Yes.
Do this.
Do this with most characters.
Everyone jumps too much.
Especially into ****.
Shield and WDing out of it are only accessible on the ground.
Knowing that, why jump?
Do this.

 

[Risky]

I haven't founded that many uses for ASC specifically. People put way too much stock into how powerful they think this tech is. It's very good after a jump Fair ASC into another jump (insert any aerial here), around 100% you can dthrow -> jump Fair -> ASC -> Nair for a kill etc.

Try Usmash and immediately canceling it into Spirit Bomb (forgot the actual terminology). It's an autocombo on a lot of the heavier/bigger cast, and is very Daigo. You'll feel cool every time you do it I promise.

A note on CCing: it can be really damn annoying sometimes, but if you get a sense of when they're going to CC you it can be dealt with. Dtilt is a strong followup to DA/Jab when they CC, immediately into a Side-B. Unless they're a very low %, a very heavy char, or you messed up the timing - you should grab them out of it and make them feel dumb.

 

[NeonApophis]

Some people think I have a pretty good Lucario. There are a lot cool things that I hadn't figured out when this video was made, but I think these matches are still pretty decent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScvRjjt7iC4

 

[iDare]

Hey guys, Hope you all doing Good. I finally got some footage of my Lucario and need some feedback! I participated in a local tournament and Ranked second place! I will post more videos in the Video Thread.Oh and Sorry for the commentators it was a local tournament to they weren't really commentating in a productive way xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTE7WLM3oDo

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I dropped Lucario back in 2.5

Not because Lucario got nerfed (though it didn't exactly encourage me to keep playing him on the side much), but because Wario got buffed and became amazing, and I started using him because I liked him so much.

But I've started picking him back up again. W00t! Lucario is still a beast, guys.

 

[Darkgun]

So a little while back someone pointed out (somewhere around here...) that "Hey, there're no guides to using Lucario!", and I am throwing around the idea of making one to cover the basics and FAQs of the character, along with some general tips for players just now starting into the option monster that Lucario lends himself to be.

I mention this to ask if anyone has specific suggestions to add to the guide or areas that might need special attention compared to the rest. Oh, and the questions you find most commonly asked when about playing Lucario, so as to give the FAQ section some more questions to answer.

 

[BigHairyFart]

So a little while back someone pointed out (somewhere around here...) that "Hey, there're no guides to using Lucario!", and I am throwing around the idea of making one to cover the basics and FAQs of the character, along with some general tips for players just now starting into the option monster that Lucario lends himself to be.

I mention this to ask if anyone has specific suggestions to add to the guide or areas that might need special attention compared to the rest. Oh, and the questions you find most commonly asked when about playing Lucario, so as to give the FAQ section some more questions to answer.

Definitely give a few examples of good but easy combos to learn. Also, make it clear how to "properly" use the super system, especially double team cancel and extreme speed cancel, as they can be difficult too learn how to best use them.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Hey guys, Hope you all doing Good. I finally got some footage of my Lucario and need some feedback! I participated in a local tournament and Ranked second place! I will post more videos in the Video Thread.Oh and Sorry for the commentators it was a local tournament to they weren't really commentating in a productive way xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTE7WLM3oDo

That's a pretty good Lucario. One thing is that you seem to use spirit bomb a lot, & then try to force the other guy into it. You would be better off using it when they are going to do something extremely predictable(like when recovering), & let them run into it. But those combos, you are damn good at stringing combos together...

 

[Vanguard]

Hey gang. Want to drop a poll on you. In your opinion, who do you think are Lucario's best and worst matchups?

 

[Spiffykins]

Hey gang. Want to drop a poll on you. In your opinion, who do you think are Lucario's best and worst matchups?

I think Falco, Mario, and Peach are easily some of the hardest, if not the hardest. Peach because reasons, Falco because he can combo Lucario forever and destroys in neutral, and Mario because he's hard for Lucario to combo and cape is way too good. Luigi is probably a similar deal, honestly.

As long as friendlies count, I wrecked a pretty good Zard once so that's probably a good matchup. Any big character apart from Ganon should be pretty free, in my opinion.

 

[Nausicaa]

Ganon is pretty free too. lol

 

[Spiffykins]

So, at the S@X Roy/Mewtwo showcase yesterday, TKBreezy said he couldn't play Lucario because there were changes they didn't want to show yet.

Speculation? Hype? BUFFS?

 

[~Frozen~]

I think Falco, Mario, and Peach are easily some of the hardest, if not the hardest. Peach because reasons, Falco because he can combo Lucario forever and destroys in neutral, and Mario because he's hard for Lucario to combo and cape is way too good. Luigi is probably a similar deal, honestly.

Pretty much agree with this. Peach CC's you to dumb %'s because most of Lucario's hits are rather weak aside from smashes and nair/bair, and being a floaty with a frame 3 nair (a trait she shares with Mario and Luigi), she can be very difficult to combo. Falco's lasers dominate Lucario since jumping in the air isn't that great of an option because of his low air mobility, and the fact that shielding is horrible vs him when half of his hits are going to be dairs on your shield, which have a good chance of poking as Lucario's ears are exposed even with a full shield.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

hopefully a decent killing f-air... maybe like sheiks? yeahhhhh

 

[Giygacoal]

He needs an approach+combo starter that doesn't need a charge that's reliable. Dash attack is both over-centralized and not good enough, and I don't want to have to be so patient most of the time, especially since his punish game isn't Ganon level.

 

[Nausicaa]

^^^ That's exactly why I want his Aura Charge to get buffed, if anything.
His punish game should be monstrous BECAUSE OF/WITH Charges, his Neutral being terrible WITHOUT a Charge would be great as a very unique/half-glass empty/full cannon.
He's like that now, but AC just quite isn't enough to make up for being without one.
Buff that (say... Down-B becomes instant [like 2.1], Up-B can go twice as far/hit the whole way, Side-B grabs from crazy range instantly [like 2.1 but bigger], and Neut-B gets better links into it [though it's kind of useless outside of combo-finishing, at least it makes the reliable part more reliable])

I don't know, just throwing things out, but I for sure DON'T want his Neutral game buffed for the sake of being buffed. Maybe 2.1 Down-B/Side-B style stuff, but even then, make ACharges better, and it's more in character/flavor/unique and awesome.

 

[Darkgun]

I'm going to confess that I've not had near enough time to play against... well, actual people, to form matchup knowledge. I'd be willing to debate the spacie matchups as a whole, since despite Lucario having an impossible time in neutral with them, he gets some dumbly free stuff against the poor things: tech chase out of... well, almost everything (I was going to make a list, but it was getting silly.), some inescapable usmash action (usmash(late)>FP, usmash(late)>RAB, usmash(first)>ASC>imagination, etc), some of the easiest edgeguards (dair at ledge height vs upB recoveries, dair at enemy height for phantasm recoveries (Wolf being a bit harder to deal with.). Some of these are even advantageous on trade.), a silly (and escapable) long fthrow chain... which sets up into a tech chase at the end of the chain. I mean, they are silly hard as a matchup, but if you're decent with followups and tech chases, they're silly easy instead, so um... I would be willing to say that it is a much more polarizing matchup.

Unrelated to the current discussion, I'm still hammering out that basics guide (slow and steady), and I've reached a point at which I am unsure of the better route. With the character's moveset, most guides add frame data and hitbox info, one of which I'll have to go hunt down, the other of which I have no idea how to obtain. Instead, I was considering explaining what the moves are most commonly used for, in my experience (and hopefully observation). That is to say, opening, extending, finishing combos, setups, linking, utilities, etc. And inevitably I might end up adding both options in, but I figured I would ask as to what ya'll thought I should use first.

Oh hey, conversation relevance! From what can be seen from Hylian's Lucario gameplay posted in the video thread, Lucario seems to either respawn with an Aura Charge. So that's one change we can see at least, Spiffykins.

 

[Nausicaa]

Unrelated to the current discussion, I'm still hammering out that basics guide (slow and steady), and I've reached a point at which I am unsure of the better route. With the character's moveset, most guides add frame data and hitbox info, one of which I'll have to go hunt down, the other of which I have no idea how to obtain. Instead, I was considering explaining what the moves are most commonly used for, in my experience (and hopefully observation). That is to say, opening, extending, finishing combos, setups, linking, utilities, etc. And inevitably I might end up adding both options in, but I figured I would ask as to what ya'll thought I should use first.

Lucario seems to either respawn with an Aura Charge. So that's one change we can see at least, Spiffykins.

^That's cool.

I've been very unimpressed with almost all Lucario play to-date. For the most part, there's too many gimmicks going on.
Too often Lucario's are getting away with AC Cancelling Up-B's and the opponent just gets hit with a follow-up aerial or attack, not even from a bait or anything, just not really being ready for it/expecting it, and acting accordingly.
Too many things like regarding cancels and charges alone are just obvious when it comes to fighting Lucario, but people haven't gotten an intuitive understanding of positional advantages and what Lucario is capable of from his side, so every opponent just looks confused, and Lucario's pull off the same thing expressively due to this confusion.
Too much SH F-air and Dash-A approaches that only don't get crushed because they can connect and Down-B away, when they're entirely punishable if they connect + Down-B works, AND if they miss, especially given how linear that can be directly.
Too many combo strings or pressure strings off initial hits out of neutral that can simply be buffer-rolled and leave Lucario vulnerable in anything from a Smash or Side-B, etc.

The incorporation of Lucario-punish game and converting connected-hits into actual-punishes is a meta-baby-game right now, and it's not really gonna go anywhere for a while since it really is an experiential nuance to get used to, that's unlike anything else in the game.
Hence it's necessary to stay AHEAD of the Lucario meta-game. Not through the techniques and mechanics of this, but the actual mental-play behind using this stuff.

My best general suggestions would be a few simple things... DD Grab lots, approach directly enough to be an aggressive force, then back away from that game and approach with Shield just as much, as oddly as that sounds. Cancel almost everything into weak hits, and into Aura Sphere cancels. Keep people close, pressure lots and hold them in blue, don't finish your combos conventionally, just drag people around, resetting as necessary off DD Grabs to catch whatever you bait out, and finish off a few soft hits into a Smash of some form, or at the very least, ASC > turn around B-air, or a charged AS after an aerial chain off-stage. Any of the things that there IS a way out of (which is a LOT of stuff, almost anything out-side of hit-stun, or that involves Down-B exclusively for safety and resets [lacking any ASC DD's mid-combo for example]), is only going to hinder the character long term.

You don't need to do things conventionally, you get free finishing moves off jabs, tilts, grabs, AC down-b, etc, so don't try forcing anything. The 'gets a hit and it's over' thing might be what makes Lucario 'seem' to be struggling, since he could TOTALLY get away with it BEFORE people knew that's what Lucario 'could' do. Now, he can't, because people know he can, so go back to what you can do.
DD Grab > Combo/D-Tilt > U-Smash > ASC/Dash-A > Combo or ASC.
^Do this literally for whole stocks, no different mid-combo, or low vs high %. Lucario thrives on getting what he wants off any hit because of a certain mechanic, so don't hit people out of this 'anything I want is accessible' range.

Just some thoughts.
That's also partially why I don't want him buffed unless it involves any form of improved 'Aura Charge' stuff.
People need to improve with him more than most, on BOTH sides of the match-up, before anything drastic to the neutral/punish/anything game is changed.

 

[H Ware]

He needs an approach+combo starter that doesn't need a charge that's reliable. Dash attack is both over-centralized and not good enough, and I don't want to have to be so patient most of the time, especially since his punish game isn't Ganon level.

SH > D-Air > Down B > Vary next move depending on aggressive or defensive opponent. When they eventually go defensive, drag them out with some teasing with the down B. Staying elusive but prepared is my favorite strategy with him, personally.

 

[Giygacoal]

^^^ That's exactly why I want his Aura Charge to get buffed, if anything.
His punish game should be monstrous BECAUSE OF/WITH Charges, his Neutral being terrible WITHOUT a Charge would be great as a very unique/half-glass empty/full cannon.
He's like that now, but AC just quite isn't enough to make up for being without one.
Buff that (say... Down-B becomes instant [like 2.1], Up-B can go twice as far/hit the whole way, Side-B grabs from crazy range instantly [like 2.1 but bigger], and Neut-B gets better links into it [though it's kind of useless outside of combo-finishing, at least it makes the reliable part more reliable])

I don't know, just throwing things out, but I for sure DON'T want his Neutral game buffed for the sake of being buffed. Maybe 2.1 Down-B/Side-B style stuff, but even then, make ACharges better, and it's more in character/flavor/unique and awesome.

Just so I can be on the same page, can we specifically define neutral game? It's basically footsies, right?
I'm not sure if buffing his charge game would be sufficient, though. One of his main flaws is that it's hard for him to get a charge in the first place, considering 1.aura sphere and "grabs" (not sure if the character page means pummel or throw or both) don't contribute to the meter (which isn't really bad, but it's something to keep in mind if you're considering doing zoning a lot), and 2. he's easily punished for starting with weak attacks in a series when the opponent is at low percents due to crouch canceling.

SH > D-Air > Down B > Vary next move depending on aggressive or defensive opponent. When they eventually go defensive, drag them out with some teasing with the down B. Staying elusive but prepared is my favorite strategy with him, personally.

I'll try that.

 

[Nausicaa]

CCing isn't helping him, but more-so long-term it's the fact that almost all Lucario's are applied pressure that you can buffer dodges and rolls right out of, and given how slow a lot of his strings are outside of connecting, people WILL eventually start doing things, which leaves Lucario in seriously disadvantageous positions.

This is why DD Grab in neutral should be more Go-To than almost all else. Like other 'quick' characters that can threaten with solid approaches when near. (yeah, footsies 'basically' but often just in the reset/nobody is in 'actual' pressure situations, but both players are establishing themselves somehow through positioning even IN advantageous/disadvantageous positions around the stage)

The issue with D-air > Down-B stuff, is it's the same as the F-air > Down-B stuff. You're banking on the otherwise over-committing attack on connecting, on gaining a form of solid positional advantage from connecting it on a chance that this will actually fully establish something mentally to condition the opponent in SOME way, and it's not safe or guaranteed to work into anything offensively if it DOES connect.

Might as well be N-air > Shining with Fox and hope the opponent doesn't actually apply the most fundamental basics of Top-Level smash like Approaching with Shield and WDOOS to grab you if you act in any way outside of extreme hard-reads.

Like really, might as well be forcing yourself to get the short end of the stick. This stuff will work until you play against opponents at a high level of play who understand the vs Lucario game at a high level.
DD Grab/D-Tilt, if you've established an offense through this, then and ONLY then to Dash-A (to punish them landing from aerial attempts/going for trades), Aura Sphere (either firing or faking it, to limit them TO approaching with Shield/acting a certain way that you can land that initial hit off an easier read), or SH F-air/etc approaches/SH Aerials in general becoming a tool you can add to your kit, rather than rely on it to any extent outside of going on a whim/establishing that it IS an option you 'will' use so they have to watch rather than simply 'be ready' for it/leaving a chance for them to abuse it.

Otherwise, approaching shield might be the best way of connecting with something like a F-air/D-air > Down-B/etc, given they WILL be expecting things like Dash-A and Dash-Grab once you've established a lack of over-commitment, which will make them fear it and therefore shield your approach/attempt maneuvers to get out of your pressure.
When they attempt those rolls/etc to get out of your pressure (like vs-Falco style play), then THAT'S where Down-B follow-ups will actually benefit you.
Otherwise... the meta-game development is in for the long haul regardless, since this is such a unique and nuance thing for vs-Lucario specifically...

 

[Giygacoal]

I already posted this on the idea submission thread, but do you guys think the aura charge indicator should be given sooner? I failed a recovery because the glow didn't show up until Lucario was in special fall after I did up-B. I could have canceled and done an air dodge. (I was hitting the opponent off-stage, which is how I got the charge.)

 

[Nausicaa]

1) You should have tried anyway.
2) Just get used to it intuitively.
3) I'm pretty sure this character is fine... I just 'know' he's getting something (sure of it... I think) and really want it directed to the proper areas.

Been trying to break Lucario for a bit now, and it's gravitating to bizarre areas. It's involving a LOT of what I'd consider a variation of Marvel-Viper Box-Combos (basically keeping people in a loop across a stage), though simpler and a LOT more active/responsive.

Though it's more dynamic and variable, it's really not difficult, it's just a little counter-intuitive since it goes against the grain of following-through or ending-combos efficiently. A lot of non-committal hits to follow-up on buffered-rolls, using the first hits of U-Smash ASC'd into either soft hits or resets on chases by either a DD or continuing, never really following too far aerial-wise unless it's to get a hard-reset.

Things get really weird in that, I think 1/10 or more of my kills are from Combo > Up-B > ACC Up-B
Drew a picture because it's complicated to explain. Blue = Up-B's, Blue Circle = ACC, Red = Target

Spoiler

I take a lot of what I posted earlier, to heart, and instead of trying to take things OUT that people are doing to hurt themselves long-term (Up-B above the stage > ACC > Attacking the opponent on the way down), and turning them into something they can work with (Up-B above the ledge > ACC > Down-B BACK to the ledge as a mix-up, or even ASCing to face the ledge and recover safely that way). < Old example, and out-dated, but that's what influenced that 'kill' combo more than anything.

It's been more effective to keep people near with constant slight-pops with U-Smash > ASC as the combo-ENDER, and using things that keep people 'close' as well like Up-B off-stage > skip the N-air > Up-B to the ledge and edge-guard, than it has been to try combos into D-Smash or landing clean hits out of Neutral. His Neutral sucks, so constantly applying pressure in the form of resets doesn't even make SENSE, but if you do it so Viper-Box-Loop-Style without ever committing to anything since you only ever use non-laggy attacks and ASC's, it's someone working out as a nice paradox.

Just some thoughts...

 

[CORY]

1) You should have tried anyway.

this. what do you have to lose? the stock that you lost anyway?

 

[BlinkIV]

It's been a matter of time, but I'll be joining the Lucario group now. I really like the character, how he plays, and the work that has to be put in to make him effective, which is exactly what I look for in a character. I'm looking forward to spreading thoughts and ideas with the other players are seeing how Lucario can end up in tournament.

One thing starting out that I realized is that Lucario has a crazy good D-Tilt, and a pretty amazing juggle game. First thing I really wanted to ask was, does anyone know about his SH D-Air > Side-B? From what I realize from playing other players in the area (Sethlon, Oracle, Denti, Awestin), it seems to be guaranteed on shield at all times. It also gets either a tech chase chance (Aerial grab) or a regular follow up (Grounded grab) on the opponent. I'm not sure how to tell if it's a grounded grab or aerial, but it seems to be a 50/50 when I do it, although. I have been doing SH D-Air > Side B tech chase aerial grabs on space animals, and it works amazingly well. I wasn't sure if you guys already knew this, or could shed some light and clarify.

But yeah, here's a video for now to show how my Lucario is looking so far. Completely being clueless to the Ivysaur MU and my first tournament with him. Any tips and critique are greatly appreciated! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08PZjJEj8vM

P:S I go by the tag "Blink" now, so don't mind "Xeven".

 

[CORY]

dair has +6 when you ohc it. fp takes 12 frames to start up. that's 6 frames where your opponent can do "something". i'm pretty sure most rolls and dodges would be faster than that, so it's not guaranteed, but if they're not expecting it it'll catch people.

in regards to the aerial v grounded, can't help you. think that's just practice. are you having trouble predicting aerial v grounded, or reacting to it after it happens? i'm assuming the former, since i'm pretty sure you have good enough reflexes to catch the different animations.

and unrelated, you just expanding your roster or did pit lose his lustre with you?

edit: after watching the first two matches: use utaunt after you get a kill! it's free 5 meter! the only thing you should really do otherwise (if not recovering) is charge aurasphere, and i think even then you'd want more meter, unless you have 2 stored already!

 

[Darkgun]

One thing starting out that I realized is that Lucario has a crazy good D-Tilt, and a pretty amazing juggle game. First thing I really wanted to ask was, does anyone know about his SH D-Air > Side-B? From what I realize from playing other players in the area (Sethlon, Oracle, Denti, Awestin), it seems to be guaranteed on shield at all times. It also gets either a tech chase chance (Aerial grab) or a regular follow up (Grounded grab) on the opponent. I'm not sure how to tell if it's a grounded grab or aerial, but it seems to be a 50/50 when I do it, although. I have been doing SH D-Air > Side B tech chase aerial grabs on space animals, and it works amazingly well. I wasn't sure if you guys already knew this, or could shed some light and clarify.

Yeah, after watching what you can do with dtilt at PaRG, and finding that it is a pretty decent way to deal with CCing opponents, I've picked it back up into my regular play. To my knowledge, the best followups to a sweetspot dtilt are ASC>aerial. Might be able to squeeze an ES out of the hitstun, but I'll have to test that out to see.

SH dair>FP/aFP is great! Heck, in terms of tech chasing as a whole, any aFP at below SH height will pay out handsomely. In terms of when you'll get a grounded FP or an aerial FP, it is honestly dependent upon the height at which you start dair and if you're fast-falling it or not (c-stick or standard input dair, then hit down at any time during the attack.). And if you're spot on with reverse, B-reverse, and wavebouncing specials, you can convert the first hit of dair into a FP at almost any location on screen, assuming you're above (I can't exactly think of a specific golden location, so for now, arbitration powers, go!) your opponent when you land the conversion hit. As for being inescapable if it lands on shield... I think it is possible to buffer a roll or spot dodge to evade it. Noting that I've been ninja'd by CORY and playing off of what he's noted, I'd say that chances are there are a few characters that could even use an OoS option against it. That said, I am curious as to whether the frame advantage on shield is the same between both hits.

Lucario can get kinda silly against opponents who can't escape tech chases easily. Nearly everything can set up into a tech chase on fast fallers. Jab combo, anyone? How about dthrow? First hit of usmash>ASC? Lots of things. LOTS. Of course, the further away you get from the extreme, the easier it will be for the opponent to DI out of the silliness, but that is kind of a given, I suppose.

Perhaps it is just that I am rather ruddy with his juggle game, but I can't really make Lucario do any of the fancy in the air. I'm more inclined to end aerial endeavors with aFP to begin another tech chase or reset, AS, or ES. I'll play with that a bit more.

But yeah, here's a video for now to show how my Lucario is looking so far. Completely being clueless to the Ivysaur MU and my first tournament with him. Any tips and critique are greatly appreciated! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08PZjJEj8vM.

P:S I go by the tag "Blink" now, so don't mind "Xeven".

Blink, eh? Right, I'll try to remember that. On to business.
• So does the Lucario-Ivysaur matchup feel like patooty to anyone else as well? Because yeah, that's-a spicy meatball. That's not just me, is it?
• You used quite a few Aura Bomb in the second round (four times, I think), and you demonstrated two ways to use it, though one leaves something to be desired. Using Aura Bomb in Neutral is both dangerous and wasteful, since it is rather easy to Power Shield, and easy to move away from. Instead, it makes for a brilliant space control tool when you have your opponent in stagger or when you are recovering. Furthermore, since you can slide along the ground during the startup animations if you touchdown before a jump, it is possible to adjust your spacing against your opponent while pressuring with a ball of death above or below when onstage, or perhaps shut down an opponent's low recovery entirely by sliding into a below-ledge-height AB.

• I would personally suggest that you use Aura Sphere a little more often as a whole. It makes for a nice way to break up opponent's approaches and improve your own. Matchup specific, a full charge AS will plow right through Razor Leaf.

• In regards to smashes, I'm personally under the impression that it is better to OHC into Double Team or occasionally ES as opposed to ASCing, since both give you immediate, drastic movement options that enable a forward or retreating movement. ASC has it's uses as well, naturally, but staying close is important.

• Lucario can CC forever, it feels like. I'll just leave it at that and let you figure out what to do. Needless to say, I've formed some bad habits from playing Lucario and Bowser all the time. Matchup specific, from what I've discussed and done with other Ivy players (read: with two other guys who whipped me with Ivy, no pun intended), while I doesn't make the fight much better, you can CC tons of Ivy's options. Get good at CC teching and you can punish some of the sillier things.

• Um... I'm sure you did somewhere in there, but... I don't remember you using usmash at all.... It is practically THE MOVE for Lucario in that it sets up into SO MANY THINGS depending on how and when you OHC/JC it. Also, matchup specific, I think Ivy dies to it at around... ~95% and for sure at anything beyond 110%, lest you play on Dream Land.

• I didn't see any points at which it was possible in your match, but if you haven't looked into it already (and I don't actually think it has been discussed yet, so if anyone has got some more on this, rock and roll please.), Lucario's OoS options: usmash (for the bigger punishes only, as it is unsafe on pretty much anything else), dair, and fair OoS, along with the global options, are quite important when an opponent applies a fair bit of pressure.

One last thing I'm playing around with that I would like thoughts on is spacing for DT approaches. I've started to use those quite a bit, and as a result now try to maintain a positioning such that my DD options allow me to easily choose between DT to the front of the opponent or a DT crossup>f/utilt. No charges required, but having them does allow for some pretty cool tricks, I'll bet. And, if I'm not subconsciously trying to paint this better than it is, this spacing is also quite conducive to DD>grab, as well as a few of his other options in neutral.

Oh yes, and welcome to undoubtedly the most technically complicated character of arguably the most complicated fighting game in existence.

 

[Denti]

What Lucario needs to be better.

Dash attack side B on shield isn't guaranteed. It is MU dependent. Depends on people's Out of Shield Jump Cancel Up smash/Up B. Also most people after awhile just dropped their shield crouch cancel d tilted and it beats dash attack into practically anything because d tilt, f tilt and side b aren't quick enough. This is literally the main reason why I stopped liking Lucario. When you can't dash attack into stuff, Lucario's core game becomes not as rewarding and you have to start relying on your aerials which aren't that great because the only great thing about Lucario in the air is aerial side b off stage, which almost nothing combos into aerial side b (You can SDI anything Lucario does that is good). You pretty much have to be fighting people that don't know the MU for Lucario to feel really good. My 2 cents on this character now.

 

[FourStar]

so does lucario still have his one hit cancel thing from when he was first introduced or no? cuz i started playing him and i thought i would make him my secondary in PM

 

[BlinkIV]

Thanks for the tips, CORY and DarkGun. I'll be sure to take those into consideration with my Lucario game. But as for as the SH D-Air > FP, I'll try and make a video sometime soon, just showing how it looks like, and if a roll/OoS option can be performed in time to escape out of it. Given it's 6 frames of time to be punished, it doesn't even feel like it. Especially on the fact that I've caught a ton of players with it, but we'll see what happens.


Also, Denti pls.

 

[Denti]

LUCARIO NEEDS BUFFS

 

[Nausicaa]

Denti, read some of my earlier posts about simplicity. Things like DD-Grab do wonders, but I'm more referring to things like D-Tilt (maybe U-Smash after) > ASC and going from there. The buffer-rolls are more universal to get out of Lucario combos/pressure/whatever, and the best way to do this is ASC and follow... kind of like normal characters. If he 'can' combo, then go for it, if it's avoided (shielding/to low and CCing/etc), then ASC and continuing from there usually allows for a free hit, whether in the form of Dash-A, D-Tilt, or simply Grab, and his Grab game is both easy to use and great for punishing, since he gets so much out of it and it's easy to establish making opponents want to shield.
But yeah, there's some talk about buffs in them too to an extent.